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well, even in WoL a good mech army can destroy any protoss army cost-effectively
No. Unless the toss army a-moves into a choke filled with mech together with missile turrets that is just not true. Yes a mech army can destroy a toss army, but any toss army which is not controlled by an idiot? No way. Lets start with the carrier army.
Now the question: you say even in WoL, but is it then different in HotS? Yes we got hellbats and thors which dont die to feedback, but toss also has new toys. And that is just later in the game, with all the other toys toss has early in the game it is much harder to actually make your mech army. If that wasnt the case I probably would have considered the mechs power to be roughly even, still a realistic build for most people who arent pro, but not better than bio.
With all the new toss early game toys it is a different story though. Just even had a toss who realized colossi counter mech, granted I was lacking severely in the viking department. More important, I also played a WoL game against a toss. I opened banshee and switched to mech (actually I opened with a bunker in his base, many of those toss dont bother placing building near their ramp, so I place one there for them). Between banshees and overcoming that bunker he was quite behind economy wise, although army wise not. He went blink stalkers. Since I was ahead economy wise I used quite some minerals to ring my base with missile turrets, guess what: they shot down his observers and he couldnt blink into my base. (Sure by better control of his observers he probably would have been able, but since I am not a pro, also my opponents aren't). The point of this story? In HotS he would have gotten his mummy core and blinked right into my base, which I seriously doubt I could have defended.
And no I don't want to 'bash' mech, I genuinely want it to work, I pretty much exclusively use it in WoL against toss so I got some experience with it. And I am not a pro, but I am diamond in WoL so not completely clueless. I just don't see mech being improved in HotS, only nerfed. Sure if you see mech as anything from factory and you dislike the positional part, it has been boosted since you can now just make hellbats and thors, but positional mech is unless I get a strat that is alot better than what I got now for me much harder in HotS than in WoL.
@Big j : well, i only get 1 port so not that banshee heavy but yeah, using the same style
Checked your guide, and that should be an early port, so would be similar to what I use in WoL. But if you go fast banshee in HotS you are doing pretty much a coinflip imo. If he goes air, you are fucked. If he goes all-in/agressive, you are fucked (in WoL a cloakshee can defend that, in hots he clicks on his detection button and kills it).
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On December 14 2012 07:14 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 06:47 Lyyna wrote:On December 14 2012 05:04 s3rp wrote:On December 14 2012 05:01 ohampatu wrote:
Cause ghosts aren't cloaked, and tempests do damage vs bio super super well.
Again, your looking at the game as a>b>c.
Viking/Raven/Ghost beats any combination of Air I can make if you land your emp's. Dont tell me its not possible to land your emps. You have Ravens and Vikings, you auto kill the observer. And i hear cloak works well when there are no observer around.
Were just going in circles because you refuse to thinkoutside the box. go play op bio if you dont want to test the changes or even try anything Mech sucks balls i'm not even having this discussion anybody that argues otherwise has no idea what he's talking about. Well , i have the same reaction... with people like you, who just bash something without even knowing what they're talking about... Did you tried mech? Did you attempted differents compositions/strategies/etc? The interesting thing is that a lot of people who bash mech have no experience with it, or really little one (aka 1 rax FE into 2 gas -insert whine about weakness to allins- into tank/hellion -insert whine about archons/chargelots/immortals- into tank/hellion/viking -insert whine about carriers/tempests- , and dont try anything else like building ghosts, using differents builds, etc, because it could prove they're wrong). Most people saying mech is bad are actually showing in their messages the fact that they have no idea what they're talking about. I especially laugh a lot when people say things like "even a standard protoss army can decimate mech" (well, even in WoL a good mech army can destroy any protoss army cost-effectively) or "mech is slow to prod" (guys, this isn't bio, you aren't supposed to sacrifice your units every minute or so) To all people supporting Mech , i'm going to say the same thing i ended up saying in WoL after a lot of "discussions" with people about my guide : Don't care about haters (because yeah, that's what most people are.. hard to have a constructive discussion about Mech actually..), just play whatever style you enjoy. A lot of high masters/GM (including myself) played mech with success in WoL (and even Sea is playing bw-esque mech with success at the highest lvl) and shown mech is viable for actually... 99,99% of SC2 players. It may not be good for pros (and Sea is showing that may not be true in WoL) but well, it's totally OK for normal people. If you find someone able to give you good arguments, and accepts yours, do not hesitate to argue with him. But just ignore people who keep showing their lack of knowledge about this subject, it's just a loss of time and motivation. tl;dr : Ignore trolls/haters, just enjoy develloping your own way to roll on protoss with heavy metal. As long as its viable for you its ok. There is no point in discussing with people with closed mind.. Lyyna problem with your mech style is that its everything mech isn't suposed to be --> super boring. When you have to turtle for 35 min + do get a super deathball and the toss turtles as wel l--> games = boring. For a mech style to be entertaining for both players and spectators protoss should be given options to harass the terran and if terran deals well with harass he should be able to attack pre 20/25 min mark. During that attack protoss shouldn't be able to engage a siged up army. He should try to find weakness's in the terrans's defense --> win time --> tech up to air.
You dont have to turtle. I got a lot of early wins versus protoss, there is big harass abilities, lots of timings etc
Turtling is my usual choice but turtling for 35 min isnt that usual for me. my games usually lasts 20 min or so , and i can often win before that , but as im super careful i play the most conservative way, holding harass and preparing for later
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On December 14 2012 07:12 Lyyna wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 07:05 mannerless wrote:On December 14 2012 06:47 Lyyna wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Well , i have the same reaction... with people like you, who just bash something without even knowing what they're talking about...
Did you tried mech? Did you attempted differents compositions/strategies/etc?
The interesting thing is that a lot of people who bash mech have no experience with it, or really little one (aka 1 rax FE into 2 gas -insert whine about weakness to allins- into tank/hellion -insert whine about archons/chargelots/immortals- into tank/hellion/viking -insert whine about carriers/tempests- , and dont try anything else like building ghosts, using differents builds, etc, because it could prove they're wrong). Most people saying mech is bad are actually showing in their messages the fact that they have no idea what they're talking about.
I especially laugh a lot when people say things like "even a standard protoss army can decimate mech" (well, even in WoL a good mech army can destroy any protoss army cost-effectively) or "mech is slow to prod" (guys, this isn't bio, you aren't supposed to sacrifice your units every minute or so)
To all people supporting Mech , i'm going to say the same thing i ended up saying in WoL after a lot of "discussions" with people about my guide :
Don't care about haters (because yeah, that's what most people are.. hard to have a constructive discussion about Mech actually..), just play whatever style you enjoy. A lot of high masters/GM (including myself) played mech with success in WoL (and even Sea is playing bw-esque mech with success at the highest lvl) and shown mech is viable for actually... 99,99% of SC2 players. It may not be good for pros (and Sea is showing that may not be true in WoL) but well, it's totally OK for normal people.
If you find someone able to give you good arguments, and accepts yours, do not hesitate to argue with him. But just ignore people who keep showing their lack of knowledge about this subject, it's just a loss of time and motivation.
tl;dr : Ignore trolls/haters, just enjoy develloping your own way to roll on protoss with heavy metal. As long as its viable for you its ok Lynna, I used to be a meching only player in WOL and I'm a big fan of your style, I was very sucessful with it on a low master/high diamond level, ESPECIALLY in TvP, I went from 20% winrate (bio) to 80% (meching). What do you think of current mech in hots in general (after balance patch #9)? Is better/more viable than WOL? What are your thoughts on the 3 MUs? I was very excited with the upgrade merging but now it got nerfed and with the recent medivac buffs I'm thinking of going back to playing bio only (they dont get decimated as easily against P and Z aoe anymore) TvT : reapers... didnt play any long tvt because the game is decided so early TvP : Better than in Wol, Hellbats gives you a way better damage buffer , and the thor can now fights air well, meaning you wont autodie to an air switch. overall same than in wol , but better' TvZ : Im playing a ghost/raven/mech composition, the matchup feels really funny atm and the balance is ok. the only bad thing is the lack of Aoe AA (or a cheap AA unit) but at least BLs armies can be killed The uppgrade sharing was too strong imo ... 2/2 banshees are scary vP and vZ , vikings with 3-3 annihilates air switches , and bc switch with insta 3/3 was too powerful
Real nice.
TvT: seems like a mess for me atm.
TvZ: What about hydra/swarm hosts and later on vipers? It's kinda hard to fight against that, I'm trying raven/mech (with lots of tanks and hellbats), but it's hard, what are the ghosts for?
TvP: Tankless all the way, I tried opening banshee and playing banshee heavy like in WoL but it's pretty worthless against toss air it seems. So I'm trying Thor/Hellbat/Ghost and mines for expansion harass but air switches are hard to deal with.
These are my thoughts, I only played like 15hots matches so far though, and I hadn't played WoL in 4months so I'm just playing very bad.
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On December 14 2012 07:16 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +well, even in WoL a good mech army can destroy any protoss army cost-effectively No. Unless the toss army a-moves into a choke filled with mech together with missile turrets that is just not true. Yes a mech army can destroy a toss army, but any toss army which is not controlled by an idiot? No way. Lets start with the carrier army. Now the question: you say even in WoL, but is it then different in HotS? Yes we got hellbats and thors which dont die to feedback, but toss also has new toys. And that is just later in the game, with all the other toys toss has early in the game it is much harder to actually make your mech army. If that wasnt the case I probably would have considered the mechs power to be roughly even, still a realistic build for most people who arent pro, but not better than bio. With all the new toss early game toys it is a different story though. Just even had a toss who realized colossi counter mech, granted I was lacking severely in the viking department. More important, I also played a WoL game against a toss. I opened banshee and switched to mech (actually I opened with a bunker in his base, many of those toss dont bother placing building near their ramp, so I place one there for them). Between banshees and overcoming that bunker he was quite behind economy wise, although army wise not. He went blink stalkers. Since I was ahead economy wise I used quite some minerals to ring my base with missile turrets, guess what: they shot down his observers and he couldnt blink into my base. (Sure by better control of his observers he probably would have been able, but since I am not a pro, also my opponents aren't). The point of this story? In HotS he would have gotten his mummy core and blinked right into my base, which I seriously doubt I could have defended. And no I don't want to 'bash' mech, I genuinely want it to work, I pretty much exclusively use it in WoL against toss so I got some experience with it. And I am not a pro, but I am diamond in WoL so not completely clueless. I just don't see mech being improved in HotS, only nerfed. Sure if you see mech as anything from factory and you dislike the positional part, it has been boosted since you can now just make hellbats and thors, but positional mech is unless I get a strat that is alot better than what I got now for me much harder in HotS than in WoL. Show nested quote +@Big j : well, i only get 1 port so not that banshee heavy but yeah, using the same style Checked your guide, and that should be an early port, so would be similar to what I use in WoL. But if you go fast banshee in HotS you are doing pretty much a coinflip imo. If he goes air, you are fucked. If he goes all-in/agressive, you are fucked (in WoL a cloakshee can defend that, in hots he clicks on his detection button and kills it).
Im on a smartphone right now so i cant answer everything (and i want to sleep) so im only going to adress your first and last statemengs.
1) well, just check my wolreplays. i meet a lot of idiots but also a lot of ppeople with good control who dies to my mech army at any point of the game. Cant do anything about this but asking you to watch these.. i never find a composition i cant beat with a good army and position
2) I defended every possible allin in Wol .. and i didnt researchef cloak in months :D
sorry for typo/short answers but im on q phone... nd i wanna sleep!Cya
@Mannerless : ghosts to emp vipers/infestors, add some damage vs Bl
didnt faced this a lot vZ but i think you need to go for at least 8 tanks then mass thors, hellbats, and ravens. Hsm is gold to kill sh
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On December 14 2012 07:20 Lyyna wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 07:14 Hider wrote:On December 14 2012 06:47 Lyyna wrote:On December 14 2012 05:04 s3rp wrote:On December 14 2012 05:01 ohampatu wrote:
Cause ghosts aren't cloaked, and tempests do damage vs bio super super well.
Again, your looking at the game as a>b>c.
Viking/Raven/Ghost beats any combination of Air I can make if you land your emp's. Dont tell me its not possible to land your emps. You have Ravens and Vikings, you auto kill the observer. And i hear cloak works well when there are no observer around.
Were just going in circles because you refuse to thinkoutside the box. go play op bio if you dont want to test the changes or even try anything Mech sucks balls i'm not even having this discussion anybody that argues otherwise has no idea what he's talking about. Well , i have the same reaction... with people like you, who just bash something without even knowing what they're talking about... Did you tried mech? Did you attempted differents compositions/strategies/etc? The interesting thing is that a lot of people who bash mech have no experience with it, or really little one (aka 1 rax FE into 2 gas -insert whine about weakness to allins- into tank/hellion -insert whine about archons/chargelots/immortals- into tank/hellion/viking -insert whine about carriers/tempests- , and dont try anything else like building ghosts, using differents builds, etc, because it could prove they're wrong). Most people saying mech is bad are actually showing in their messages the fact that they have no idea what they're talking about. I especially laugh a lot when people say things like "even a standard protoss army can decimate mech" (well, even in WoL a good mech army can destroy any protoss army cost-effectively) or "mech is slow to prod" (guys, this isn't bio, you aren't supposed to sacrifice your units every minute or so) To all people supporting Mech , i'm going to say the same thing i ended up saying in WoL after a lot of "discussions" with people about my guide : Don't care about haters (because yeah, that's what most people are.. hard to have a constructive discussion about Mech actually..), just play whatever style you enjoy. A lot of high masters/GM (including myself) played mech with success in WoL (and even Sea is playing bw-esque mech with success at the highest lvl) and shown mech is viable for actually... 99,99% of SC2 players. It may not be good for pros (and Sea is showing that may not be true in WoL) but well, it's totally OK for normal people. If you find someone able to give you good arguments, and accepts yours, do not hesitate to argue with him. But just ignore people who keep showing their lack of knowledge about this subject, it's just a loss of time and motivation. tl;dr : Ignore trolls/haters, just enjoy develloping your own way to roll on protoss with heavy metal. As long as its viable for you its ok. There is no point in discussing with people with closed mind.. Lyyna problem with your mech style is that its everything mech isn't suposed to be --> super boring. When you have to turtle for 35 min + do get a super deathball and the toss turtles as wel l--> games = boring. For a mech style to be entertaining for both players and spectators protoss should be given options to harass the terran and if terran deals well with harass he should be able to attack pre 20/25 min mark. During that attack protoss shouldn't be able to engage a siged up army. He should try to find weakness's in the terrans's defense --> win time --> tech up to air. You dont have to turtle. I got a lot of early wins versus protoss, there is big harass abilities, lots of timings etc Turtling is my usual choice but turtling for 35 min isnt that usual for me. my games usually lasts 20 min or so , and i can often win before that , but as im super careful i play the most conservative way, holding harass and preparing for later
YOu attack within 20 mins? How many units do you have of each kind?
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I'm going to experiment today with Hellbat/Tank/Thor/Ravens for PDD/Seeker Missile. I'll post results.
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I checked lot of Lyynas replays and WoL and they are usually 40-50 min games.Many of your enemies even ask you what to do to beat your army...The air switch to carriers was ok in WoL,but in HotS we must face Tempest which outranges everything in this game and its actually impossible to beat,no matter what army you got.Ghost die to obs+tempest and ravens cant got near enough.Thors got no range and even Carrier outranges with the new "leash range".BC not viable because of Tempest 80 Damage to Massive,so what do we have now? Big maps when P got 8 bases and you barelly stay on 4.Wanna see your HotS replays going mech and harassing with hellion or whatever.Just cant kill enough probes early to beat them because later they put lot of cannons...
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On December 14 2012 17:54 Dvriel wrote:
... in HotS we must face Tempest which outranges everything in this game and its actually impossible to beat,no matter what army you got...
PPD blocks tempest shots.
Feel free to try it on the unit tester.
I couldn't find youtube video.
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On December 14 2012 18:09 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 17:54 Dvriel wrote:
... in HotS we must face Tempest which outranges everything in this game and its actually impossible to beat,no matter what army you got... PPD blocks tempest shots. Feel free to try it on the unit tester. I couldn't find youtube video.
That is true. But once there are Carriers and HT's, your Ravens with PDDs are not so good anymore. At least that is what I suppose, going to try today.
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On December 14 2012 18:12 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 18:09 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On December 14 2012 17:54 Dvriel wrote:
... in HotS we must face Tempest which outranges everything in this game and its actually impossible to beat,no matter what army you got... PPD blocks tempest shots. Feel free to try it on the unit tester. I couldn't find youtube video. That is true. But once there are Carriers and HT's, your Ravens with PDDs are not so good anymore. At least that is what I suppose, going to try today.
Carriers definitely do counter PDD. Each interceptor fires twice and drains PDD immediately.
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On December 14 2012 18:33 link0 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 18:12 Everlong wrote:On December 14 2012 18:09 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On December 14 2012 17:54 Dvriel wrote:
... in HotS we must face Tempest which outranges everything in this game and its actually impossible to beat,no matter what army you got... PPD blocks tempest shots. Feel free to try it on the unit tester. I couldn't find youtube video. That is true. But once there are Carriers and HT's, your Ravens with PDDs are not so good anymore. At least that is what I suppose, going to try today. Carriers definitely do counter PDD. Each interceptor fires twice and drains PDD immediately.
You do realise how hard it is to expand to comfortably support a carrier/tempest fleet?
A good mid-game drill mine/medivac harass significantly delays a Protoss's expansion as Avilo has shown on Husky's casts.
One does simply tech to carrier. *Boromir face*
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On December 14 2012 07:55 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 07:20 Lyyna wrote:On December 14 2012 07:14 Hider wrote:On December 14 2012 06:47 Lyyna wrote:On December 14 2012 05:04 s3rp wrote:On December 14 2012 05:01 ohampatu wrote:
Cause ghosts aren't cloaked, and tempests do damage vs bio super super well.
Again, your looking at the game as a>b>c.
Viking/Raven/Ghost beats any combination of Air I can make if you land your emp's. Dont tell me its not possible to land your emps. You have Ravens and Vikings, you auto kill the observer. And i hear cloak works well when there are no observer around.
Were just going in circles because you refuse to thinkoutside the box. go play op bio if you dont want to test the changes or even try anything Mech sucks balls i'm not even having this discussion anybody that argues otherwise has no idea what he's talking about. Well , i have the same reaction... with people like you, who just bash something without even knowing what they're talking about... Did you tried mech? Did you attempted differents compositions/strategies/etc? The interesting thing is that a lot of people who bash mech have no experience with it, or really little one (aka 1 rax FE into 2 gas -insert whine about weakness to allins- into tank/hellion -insert whine about archons/chargelots/immortals- into tank/hellion/viking -insert whine about carriers/tempests- , and dont try anything else like building ghosts, using differents builds, etc, because it could prove they're wrong). Most people saying mech is bad are actually showing in their messages the fact that they have no idea what they're talking about. I especially laugh a lot when people say things like "even a standard protoss army can decimate mech" (well, even in WoL a good mech army can destroy any protoss army cost-effectively) or "mech is slow to prod" (guys, this isn't bio, you aren't supposed to sacrifice your units every minute or so) To all people supporting Mech , i'm going to say the same thing i ended up saying in WoL after a lot of "discussions" with people about my guide : Don't care about haters (because yeah, that's what most people are.. hard to have a constructive discussion about Mech actually..), just play whatever style you enjoy. A lot of high masters/GM (including myself) played mech with success in WoL (and even Sea is playing bw-esque mech with success at the highest lvl) and shown mech is viable for actually... 99,99% of SC2 players. It may not be good for pros (and Sea is showing that may not be true in WoL) but well, it's totally OK for normal people. If you find someone able to give you good arguments, and accepts yours, do not hesitate to argue with him. But just ignore people who keep showing their lack of knowledge about this subject, it's just a loss of time and motivation. tl;dr : Ignore trolls/haters, just enjoy develloping your own way to roll on protoss with heavy metal. As long as its viable for you its ok. There is no point in discussing with people with closed mind.. Lyyna problem with your mech style is that its everything mech isn't suposed to be --> super boring. When you have to turtle for 35 min + do get a super deathball and the toss turtles as wel l--> games = boring. For a mech style to be entertaining for both players and spectators protoss should be given options to harass the terran and if terran deals well with harass he should be able to attack pre 20/25 min mark. During that attack protoss shouldn't be able to engage a siged up army. He should try to find weakness's in the terrans's defense --> win time --> tech up to air. You dont have to turtle. I got a lot of early wins versus protoss, there is big harass abilities, lots of timings etc Turtling is my usual choice but turtling for 35 min isnt that usual for me. my games usually lasts 20 min or so , and i can often win before that , but as im super careful i play the most conservative way, holding harass and preparing for later YOu attack within 20 mins? How many units do you have of each kind?
Depends of my build . I have a 1 rax reactor FE that can transition in a marine (8-10)/tank(2)/hellion(4-6) push on 2 factory around 8-9 mins, or in a 1-3-1 push around 12 minutes with 15+ rines, 6 tanks, 2-3 banshees, 1 raven, and a tons of hellions. With my standard macro builds, i can do 2 bases with for example 4 thors, 2 or 3 ghosts, 2 or 3 banshees, 1 Ravens, ~~ 10 marines and 8 hellions , which can be deadly versus too greedy protoss, and still ok versus normal builds
The fact i don't push often doesn't mean i can't push. It's just that i prefer to always choose the defensive option.
On December 14 2012 17:54 Dvriel wrote:
I checked lot of Lyynas replays and WoL and they are usually 40-50 min games.Many of your enemies even ask you what to do to beat your army...The air switch to carriers was ok in WoL,but in HotS we must face Tempest which outranges everything in this game and its actually impossible to beat,no matter what army you got.Ghost die to obs+tempest and ravens cant got near enough.Thors got no range and even Carrier outranges with the new "leash range".BC not viable because of Tempest 80 Damage to Massive,so what do we have now? Big maps when P got 8 bases and you barelly stay on 4.Wanna see your HotS replays going mech and harassing with hellion or whatever.Just cant kill enough probes early to beat them because later they put lot of cannons...
I don't think there is enough 40+ min games to say they "usually" last that long. I finish a lots of games in 20 minutes or less.
Well, i didn't harass at all in WoL, and i'll try to get away with this in HOTS too.
I'm still refining my HOTS play (i play HOTS since basically 2 weeks, and not in an hardcore way) so i don't have "definitive" counters to everything, but well.. People kept bashing my playstyle in WoL, saying it wouldnt work, and yet i made it work. I don't see why i couldn't do the same in HOTS
On December 14 2012 18:33 link0 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 18:12 Everlong wrote:On December 14 2012 18:09 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On December 14 2012 17:54 Dvriel wrote:
... in HotS we must face Tempest which outranges everything in this game and its actually impossible to beat,no matter what army you got... PPD blocks tempest shots. Feel free to try it on the unit tester. I couldn't find youtube video. That is true. But once there are Carriers and HT's, your Ravens with PDDs are not so good anymore. At least that is what I suppose, going to try today. Carriers definitely do counter PDD. Each interceptor fires twice and drains PDD immediately.
PDD doesn't work vs interceptors in WoL (i tried it again just to be sure)... was this changed in HOTS?
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Oh man, I think PDD doesn't stop interceptors.
So Raven is pretty decent counter to mass air Protoss i guess? Like Raven/Thor/Vikings should do reasonably well against Carrier/Tempest.. Problem would be HT then.
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On December 14 2012 22:24 Everlong wrote:
Oh man, I think PDD doesn't stop interceptors.
So Raven is pretty decent counter to mass air Protoss i guess? Like Raven/Thor/Vikings should do reasonably well against Carrier/Tempest.. Problem would be HT then.
Well, my perfect endgame army in Wol was BCs, few ravens, ghosts, few thors, tanks.
I think i'll do the same, without BCs, a few more thors and vikings, and air will disappear with good focus fire. Basically HSM is your new Yamato, and since thors can now deal good damage to armored air, they can take the "tank" role instead of BCs, especially since tempsts will make BCs useless anyway. And vikings to add some DPS..
HT aren't a problem for mech. You have tanks and ghosts with force him to be careful with them, you have hellions that can destroy them fast (especially if he's stupid enough to go for a pure air-HT army)
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On December 14 2012 22:30 Lyyna wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 22:24 Everlong wrote:
Oh man, I think PDD doesn't stop interceptors.
So Raven is pretty decent counter to mass air Protoss i guess? Like Raven/Thor/Vikings should do reasonably well against Carrier/Tempest.. Problem would be HT then. Well, my perfect endgame army in Wol was BCs, few ravens, ghosts, few thors, tanks. I think i'll do the same, without BCs, a few more thors and vikings, and air will disappear with good focus fire. Basically HSM is your new Yamato, and since thors can now deal good damage to armored air, they can take the "tank" role instead of BCs, especially since tempsts will make BCs useless anyway. And vikings to add some DPS.. HT aren't a problem for mech. You have tanks and ghosts with force him to be careful with them, you have hellions that can destroy them fast (especially if he's stupid enough to go for a pure air-HT army)
I think that this will work and you can get there way safer now with new Thor, Hellbat and Widow Mines. Actually, I think a healthy mix of Tank/Thor/Raven/Viking might be good enough to deal with late-game Protoss.. Might still need Ghosts. Since you skip BCs completly now, you are going to have enough gas for anything basically.
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On December 14 2012 22:35 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 22:30 Lyyna wrote:On December 14 2012 22:24 Everlong wrote:
Oh man, I think PDD doesn't stop interceptors.
So Raven is pretty decent counter to mass air Protoss i guess? Like Raven/Thor/Vikings should do reasonably well against Carrier/Tempest.. Problem would be HT then. Well, my perfect endgame army in Wol was BCs, few ravens, ghosts, few thors, tanks. I think i'll do the same, without BCs, a few more thors and vikings, and air will disappear with good focus fire. Basically HSM is your new Yamato, and since thors can now deal good damage to armored air, they can take the "tank" role instead of BCs, especially since tempsts will make BCs useless anyway. And vikings to add some DPS.. HT aren't a problem for mech. You have tanks and ghosts with force him to be careful with them, you have hellions that can destroy them fast (especially if he's stupid enough to go for a pure air-HT army) I think that this will work and you can get there way safer now with new Thor, Hellbat and Widow Mines. Actually, I think a healthy mix of Tank/Thor/Raven/Viking might be good enough to deal with late-game Protoss.. Might still need Ghosts. Since you skip BCs completly now, you are going to have enough gas for anything basically.
For me ghosts are required to do a viable mech army. 30-50% of the protoss army health evaporating instantly, mech counters being hard countered (immortals..), and others stuff. There is no reason to not get ghosts, and this is actually why a lot of people are crying about immortals and stuff: because they don't get that there is no fucking reason to not add ghosts to their army. They add ghosts vs HT/archon with bio, why wouldn't they do the same thing with mech? --'
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On December 14 2012 22:36 Lyyna wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 22:35 Everlong wrote:On December 14 2012 22:30 Lyyna wrote:On December 14 2012 22:24 Everlong wrote:
Oh man, I think PDD doesn't stop interceptors.
So Raven is pretty decent counter to mass air Protoss i guess? Like Raven/Thor/Vikings should do reasonably well against Carrier/Tempest.. Problem would be HT then. Well, my perfect endgame army in Wol was BCs, few ravens, ghosts, few thors, tanks. I think i'll do the same, without BCs, a few more thors and vikings, and air will disappear with good focus fire. Basically HSM is your new Yamato, and since thors can now deal good damage to armored air, they can take the "tank" role instead of BCs, especially since tempsts will make BCs useless anyway. And vikings to add some DPS.. HT aren't a problem for mech. You have tanks and ghosts with force him to be careful with them, you have hellions that can destroy them fast (especially if he's stupid enough to go for a pure air-HT army) I think that this will work and you can get there way safer now with new Thor, Hellbat and Widow Mines. Actually, I think a healthy mix of Tank/Thor/Raven/Viking might be good enough to deal with late-game Protoss.. Might still need Ghosts. Since you skip BCs completly now, you are going to have enough gas for anything basically. For me ghosts are required to do a viable mech army. 30-50% of the protoss army health evaporating instantly, mech counters being hard countered (immortals..), and others stuff. There is no reason to not get ghosts
I agree with you, Ghost is just too good to skip versus Protoss. But I'm going to try the new Raven instead of Ghost just to see how the new yamato works. Since you have it fairly early in the game, it might erase Immortals even faster then how would you do that with Ghosts removing their sheilds. But that is just pure theorycrafting. I like how Raven is good vs both Immortals/Tempests.. 2 most scary things actually Protoss can throw at meching player I think.
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On December 14 2012 06:55 architecture wrote:
So how is it, then, that in 2 years there has never been a real mech game TvP, except for
1. Timing
2. Huge skill difference/unpreparedness?
Surely if hellbat and energy thor are the only issues why mech needed fixed, then we would see widespread viability of it?
And surely a player like MVP, that heavily favors mech in his other matchups, would figure out how to make it work?
The answer is right there, it's not viable. And you would be better off acknowledging it and figuring out how it could be, instead of pretending something that has never been true.
There was. For a moment. Thorzain used mass thor and mech to fuck shit up. Thors were instantly nerfed.
Jinro went mech against ogsMC and mopped the floor with his freaking face.
Those are the only good tvp mech games in 2 years.
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Honeybadger, I have made something of a study of this. In EVERY game where mech has been effective at the pro level, hellions happen.
Especially Jinro vs MC, hellions massacred a tremendous number of probes earlier in that game. It was still a close game, despite a massive worker and resource advantage by Jinro. If he had made MMM instead, and killed equally as many workers (potentially even using hellions to do so), that game would have been incredibly one-sided in his favor, and obviously so. MC didn't even know how to react- he kept playing as though Jinro were going to switch over to MMM, which he never did. And MC's army pushed right up to Jinro, and inflicted serious casualties on a mech army which at the time represented massively more resources than his own gateway forces. It was an exciting game that should not have been exciting after Jinro's hellions.
Hellions killing workers is obviously strong. However it is silly that after killing 20, 25, 30, 35 probes, mech still struggles to beat a Protoss ground army, even without adapting to fight mech at all.
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EPT
