EPTTvP Mech still not viable? - Page 32
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s3rp
Germany3192 Posts
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s3rp
Germany3192 Posts
On December 14 2012 04:51 ohampatu wrote: Yea this is my last post. I sit there and talk about tempest prolly needing nerfs and giving other examples, you again just cite that. Not a single person is talking coherently or objectively. You use infallible arguments and ignore what other people say. The 2 units you guys have bitched about for 2 years: Chargelot and Immortal. Chargelots: countered by hellbats Immortal: countered by ghosts. Both of these units are in your aresenal, and are easy to use lategame, and compliment mech. Its not hard to blanket an entire protoss army with emps. The only unit you guys can currently bitch about is the tempest. And it just got nerfed to not be affective vs ground massive targets. And it will prolly get nerfed again. You guys are litterally complaining about every facet of protoss that exists. Its funny actually. Not even battle.net is complaining this much. @Dvriel. Why dont you go play protoss since you think every thing about our race beats yours. I dont even understand half of what you just typed, apart from 'i hate everything protoss'. Widow Mines will be buffed. Tempests will be nerfed. While your waiting for those two things, try to actually use diverse unit comps. QQQQQ isn't going to fix your problems. @serp..vikings/ravens still beat any other 'air fleet' possible. Nobody has as good AA as the viking. Now once toss adds in storm you have to add in emps. If you dont, then yea, storm+air will decimate you. No they don't because Storm will decimate any Viking fleet before the fight ALOT. And don't start with well build Ghosts when there's no way to ever hit Templars hiding behind Tempest. He'll just sit there baiting you by slowly chipping at your army and/or buildings until Terran moves in. Not to mention to deal with an army like that you need an amount of Vikings thats totally useless once the remaxes with stupid Warpgate stuff. | ||
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ohampatu
United States1448 Posts
Again, your looking at the game as a>b>c. Viking/Raven/Ghost beats any combination of Air I can make if you land your emp's. Dont tell me its not possible to land your emps. You have Ravens and Vikings, you auto kill the observer. And i hear cloak works well when there are no observer around. Were just going in circles because you refuse to thinkoutside the box. go play op bio if you dont want to test the changes or even try anything | ||
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s3rp
Germany3192 Posts
On December 14 2012 05:01 ohampatu wrote: Cause ghosts aren't cloaked, and tempests do damage vs bio super super well. Again, your looking at the game as a>b>c. Viking/Raven/Ghost beats any combination of Air I can make if you land your emp's. Dont tell me its not possible to land your emps. You have Ravens and Vikings, you auto kill the observer. And i hear cloak works well when there are no observer around. Were just going in circles because you refuse to thinkoutside the box. go play op bio if you dont want to test the changes or even try anything You autokill observers of total noobs. Not to mention the MSC can also detect at gigantic range. Mech sucks balls i'm not even having this discussion anybody that argues otherwise has no idea what he's talking about. | ||
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
On December 14 2012 04:51 ohampatu wrote: Yea this is my last post. I sit there and talk about tempest prolly needing nerfs and giving other examples, you again just cite that. Not a single person is talking coherently or objectively. You use infallible arguments and ignore what other people say. The 2 units you guys have bitched about for 2 years: Chargelot and Immortal. Chargelots: countered by hellbats Immortal: countered by ghosts. Both of these units are in your aresenal, and are easy to use lategame, and compliment mech. Its not hard to blanket an entire protoss army with emps. The only unit you guys can currently bitch about is the tempest. And it just got nerfed to not be affective vs ground massive targets. And it will prolly get nerfed again. You guys are litterally complaining about every facet of protoss that exists. Its funny actually. Not even battle.net is complaining this much. @Dvriel. Why dont you go play protoss since you think every thing about our race beats yours. I dont even understand half of what you just typed, apart from 'i hate everything protoss'. Widow Mines will be buffed. Tempests will be nerfed. While your waiting for those two things, try to actually use diverse unit comps. QQQQQ isn't going to fix your problems. @serp..vikings/ravens still beat any other 'air fleet' possible. Nobody has as good AA as the viking. Now once toss adds in storm you have to add in emps. If you dont, then yea, storm+air will decimate you. I am sure most terran want mech to be tank base. Having thor and hellbat in is terrible for game play. Otherwise like most people here says, it will just be an a-move. I agree with you that mass thor can be very powerful but it something I am sure all terran and zerg dont want. I also believe that carriers are stronger now that you can micro them and I believe they would murder thor. If mech isnt tank base mech, then it might as well not be viable because it just lead to more boring game and should just be scrapped because bio is alot more interesting. But at this stage in the game, I dont believe it ever possible to have the mech we all want in the game. If toss doesnt go air, I believe mech can beat toss ground easily if they dont have any worries about air threat. This will encourage toss to abuse mech mobility and mass expand. Even day9 said himself that mech is NOT viable and when that guy said something isnt viable, I dont believe it is because he usually not very vocal about his opinion. Also regarding sky terran, it doesnt work. Phoenix can beat viking cost effectively before the buff and I am sure they will beat them easily. Not to mention storm etc etc. Phoenix also shoot pretty fast so they each up pdd fairly well. Sky terran been tested in WoL all the time and it doesnt work. Not much buff has directly buffed to sky terran thus I am sure the result will be roughly the same and that is dying to storm stalker archon and phoenix or a combination of either one of those. | ||
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ohampatu
United States1448 Posts
You can go up to 10 tanks and then switch out of them and still have a very positional fight. The only thing giving mech issues right now is Tempests, and blizz is trying to address it. Thats the only point im trying to get across, but everybody is lilke s3rp and just wants to call imba without any type of discussion. Very very hard to talk about anything when people turn into 12 year old COD fanboys whenever they think their race is imblanced. | ||
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pOriishan
45 Posts
On December 14 2012 05:01 ohampatu wrote: Cause ghosts aren't cloaked, and tempests do damage vs bio super super well. Again, your looking at the game as a>b>c. Viking/Raven/Ghost beats any combination of Air I can make if you land your emp's. Dont tell me its not possible to land your emps. You have Ravens and Vikings, you auto kill the observer. And i hear cloak works well when there are no observer around. Were just going in circles because you refuse to thinkoutside the box. go play op bio if you dont want to test the changes or even try anything You gotta be kidding right ? Don't talk theories, auto kill the observers ? I don't think toss let ravens come in range to detect observers and go away, HTs also feedback ravens ? What's your logic ? Toss can make 5 6 observers, thus MsC can detect too. Maybe you're right, with Silver and bronze leagues i guess | ||
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
On December 14 2012 05:10 ohampatu wrote: Im not saying tanks aren't viable. Im saying the oldschool 'only make tanks, vikings, and auto turrets' aka WoL Beta, will not work. Make 10, and then stop. Get thors, hellbats, ghosts, upgrades. Theres alot to do besides 'just make tanks' is all im getting across. If you think all other factory units are good, then stop saying mech isn't viable. Start saying 'tanks' aren't viable. They are completely different. You can go up to 10 tanks and then switch out of them and still have a very positional fight. The only thing giving mech issues right now is Tempests, and blizz is trying to address it. Thats the only point im trying to get across, but everybody is lilke s3rp and just wants to call imba without any type of discussion. Very very hard to talk about anything when people turn into 12 year old COD fanboys whenever they think their race is imblanced. Ya, I am certain tempest will work itself out eventually. I dont think tempest is that bad honestly because PDD negate tempest pretty well. Just having a few raven will help out turmedously. I am more scared of carriers atm since they can be microed which is much more scary. Considering that they can just move away the injured carrier while it is still attacking and kite your viking to stalker. Due to carriers, I believe mech in general isnt viable. Massing thors with hellbat or anything just isnt viable if toss has enough experience with it. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On December 14 2012 04:11 ohampatu wrote: Im looking for the link. I believe they said they wanted hellions to dps immortals slightly better, but still looking for it. I'm also interested in that link if you can find it. | ||
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Dvriel
607 Posts
I dont hate any race in SC.Its just that almost every unit in the P army is designed to beat Ts mech.In the actual TvP everything is fine and its almost perfectly balanced and Pros show us how to play to beat one BO or another or unit combo.If nobody in Pro scene is playing mech vs P is because it does not allow you to win. Just try to read better and maybe will understand Ask yourself something: why nobody played BIO in BW???Because Mech were much better.Same here.If you want to see it go on Youtube an type: Flash vs Stork | ||
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Hider
Denmark9404 Posts
On December 14 2012 04:11 ohampatu wrote: Im looking for the link. I believe they said they wanted hellions to dps immortals slightly better, but still looking for it. Maybe ive missed the 'explanations'. Mostly all i see is 'it doesn't work because of x unit'. Which is an infallible argument that can't be beat. But i could do the same. You terrans complained about chargelots and immortals. Now you hardcounter chargelots, and mech handles immortals just fine with ghosts. Im sorry, but all i see is 'it needs to be easier to mech'. If you land emps good, you can handle almost any unit comp not involving tempests. Idk how mech handles tempests, but it seems blizzard is nerfing them to make up for it. Thor should fight the tempests quite well now if you can get in range. And im sure they will nerf the tempest even more. If i find the link i'll edit/update. The thing is that every time you go ghosts you would be better off with bio (given you have decent micro). With decent micro + ghosts bio is just as cost effective as mech. For "mech" to be really cost efficient you have to turtle 35 min + and get ghosts ravens/bcs (at least in wol - bcs not neccesary anymore), sack scvs etc... It's a bit better in HOTs as you dont need to turtle that long but still terran mech (tanks primarily) needs to be cost efficient when sieged up against every single toss ground unit. If its not then mech is underpowered. And the problem is that when terran needs to have ghosts and ravens along with their mech composition, then they will need to turtle so fucking along, that the game becoems extremely boring. I think (Desing wise) that terrans shouldn't be supposed to add ghosts to deal with immortals. I am fine with the fact that needs to do something special against tempest/carriers, but against a "tier 2 units" mech should just beat it as long as the ecomposition is very great. The strenght of toss is in the midgame should be their mobility. Not their brutal force. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On December 14 2012 05:10 ohampatu wrote: Im not saying tanks aren't viable. Im saying the oldschool 'only make tanks, vikings, and auto turrets' aka WoL Beta, will not work. Make 10, and then stop. Get thors, hellbats, ghosts, upgrades. Theres alot to do besides 'just make tanks' is all im getting across. If you think all other factory units are good, then stop saying mech isn't viable. Start saying 'tanks' aren't viable. They are completely different. You can go up to 10 tanks and then switch out of them and still have a very positional fight. The only thing giving mech issues right now is Tempests, and blizz is trying to address it. Thats the only point im trying to get across, but everybody is lilke s3rp and just wants to call imba without any type of discussion. Very very hard to talk about anything when people turn into 12 year old COD fanboys whenever they think their race is imblanced. Do you watch non Protoss games in WOL? Tank based mech has a lot more then just "make tanks". Now what is the problem with making a small nr of tanks? You end up with an army that is completely death ball like. Thor/ Hellbat/ Ghost, a sharp contrast to what mech is in TvT and TvZ where you control space, set up lines of defence and leap frog in attack, etc. We don't want mech to be the Terran Thor death ball meats the Protoss Colossus death ball (i'm exaggerating but you get the idea) I will say though that maps play a huge role. We need more maps with high ground areas in the center, more chokes in general, different expansion patterns, etc. I feel this is an area where the entire SC2 community has failed thus far. I understand that as a map maker you want to make "standard" maps or else you have no chance of getting your work in ladder, and from there in the big tournaments. My hope is that KESPA will show the way in map making. | ||
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Pookie Monster
United States303 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=387928 | ||
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Lyyna
France776 Posts
On December 14 2012 05:04 s3rp wrote: Mech sucks balls i'm not even having this discussion anybody that argues otherwise has no idea what he's talking about. Well , i have the same reaction... with people like you, who just bash something without even knowing what they're talking about... Did you tried mech? Did you attempted differents compositions/strategies/etc? The interesting thing is that a lot of people who bash mech have no experience with it, or really little one (aka 1 rax FE into 2 gas -insert whine about weakness to allins- into tank/hellion -insert whine about archons/chargelots/immortals- into tank/hellion/viking -insert whine about carriers/tempests- , and dont try anything else like building ghosts, using differents builds, etc, because it could prove they're wrong). Most people saying mech is bad are actually showing in their messages the fact that they have no idea what they're talking about. I especially laugh a lot when people say things like "even a standard protoss army can decimate mech" (well, even in WoL a good mech army can destroy any protoss army cost-effectively) or "mech is slow to prod" (guys, this isn't bio, you aren't supposed to sacrifice your units every minute or so) To all people supporting Mech , i'm going to say the same thing i ended up saying in WoL after a lot of "discussions" with people about my guide : Don't care about haters (because yeah, that's what most people are.. hard to have a constructive discussion about Mech actually..), just play whatever style you enjoy. A lot of high masters/GM (including myself) played mech with success in WoL (and even Sea is playing bw-esque mech with success at the highest lvl) and shown mech is viable for actually... 99,99% of SC2 players. It may not be good for pros (and Sea is showing that may not be true in WoL) but well, it's totally OK for normal people. If you find someone able to give you good arguments, and accepts yours, do not hesitate to argue with him. But just ignore people who keep showing their lack of knowledge about this subject, it's just a loss of time and motivation. tl;dr : Ignore trolls/haters, just enjoy develloping your own way to roll on protoss with heavy metal. As long as its viable for you its ok. There is no point in discussing with people with closed mind.. | ||
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architecture
United States643 Posts
1. Timing 2. Huge skill difference/unpreparedness? Surely if hellbat and energy thor are the only issues why mech needed fixed, then we would see widespread viability of it? And surely a player like MVP, that heavily favors mech in his other matchups, would figure out how to make it work? The answer is right there, it's not viable. And you would be better off acknowledging it and figuring out how it could be, instead of pretending something that has never been true. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 14 2012 06:47 Lyyna wrote: Well , i have the same reaction... with people like you, who just bash something without even knowing what they're talking about... Did you tried mech? Did you attempted differents compositions/strategies/etc? The interesting thing is that a lot of people who bash mech have no experience with it, or really little one (aka 1 rax FE into 2 gas -insert whine about weakness to allins- into tank/hellion -insert whine about archons/chargelots/immortals- into tank/hellion/viking -insert whine about carriers/tempests- , and dont try anything else like building ghosts, using differents builds, etc, because it could prove they're wrong). Most people saying mech is bad are actually showing in their messages the fact that they have no idea what they're talking about. I especially laugh a lot when people say things like "even a standard protoss army can decimate mech" (well, even in WoL a good mech army can destroy any protoss army cost-effectively) or "mech is slow to prod" (guys, this isn't bio, you aren't supposed to sacrifice your units every minute or so) To all people supporting Mech , i'm going to say the same thing i ended up saying in WoL after a lot of "discussions" with people about my guide : Don't care about haters (because yeah, that's what most people are.. hard to have a constructive discussion about Mech actually..), just play whatever style you enjoy. A lot of high masters/GM (including myself) played mech with success in WoL (and even Sea is playing bw-esque mech with success at the highest lvl) and shown mech is viable for actually... 99,99% of SC2 players. It may not be good for pros (and Sea is showing that may not be true in WoL) but well, it's totally OK for normal people. If you find someone able to give you good arguments, and accepts yours, do not hesitate to argue with him. But just ignore people who keep showing their lack of knowledge about this subject, it's just a loss of time and motivation. tl;dr : Ignore trolls/haters, just enjoy develloping your own way to roll on protoss with heavy metal. Just out of curiosity: Do you still play the bansheeheavy very slow mechstyle in HotS, or are you trying different stuff as well? Because your style of Mech vP was the only one that really worked out well for me in WoL. | ||
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Lyyna
France776 Posts
Well, mech is used with success by some pros, especially Sea Bio is favored because its totally explored (and pros want non experimentak play) . better suited for their mindset and skill, and easier. They play to win A lot of gm/ high mast players have success in wol, with mech, showing its not that bad (the oposite in fact) @Big j : well, i only get 1 port so not that banshee heavy :p but yeah, using the same style | ||
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mannerless
Brazil86 Posts
On December 14 2012 06:47 Lyyna wrote: + Show Spoiler + Well , i have the same reaction... with people like you, who just bash something without even knowing what they're talking about... Did you tried mech? Did you attempted differents compositions/strategies/etc? The interesting thing is that a lot of people who bash mech have no experience with it, or really little one (aka 1 rax FE into 2 gas -insert whine about weakness to allins- into tank/hellion -insert whine about archons/chargelots/immortals- into tank/hellion/viking -insert whine about carriers/tempests- , and dont try anything else like building ghosts, using differents builds, etc, because it could prove they're wrong). Most people saying mech is bad are actually showing in their messages the fact that they have no idea what they're talking about. I especially laugh a lot when people say things like "even a standard protoss army can decimate mech" (well, even in WoL a good mech army can destroy any protoss army cost-effectively) or "mech is slow to prod" (guys, this isn't bio, you aren't supposed to sacrifice your units every minute or so) To all people supporting Mech , i'm going to say the same thing i ended up saying in WoL after a lot of "discussions" with people about my guide : Don't care about haters (because yeah, that's what most people are.. hard to have a constructive discussion about Mech actually..), just play whatever style you enjoy. A lot of high masters/GM (including myself) played mech with success in WoL (and even Sea is playing bw-esque mech with success at the highest lvl) and shown mech is viable for actually... 99,99% of SC2 players. It may not be good for pros (and Sea is showing that may not be true in WoL) but well, it's totally OK for normal people. If you find someone able to give you good arguments, and accepts yours, do not hesitate to argue with him. But just ignore people who keep showing their lack of knowledge about this subject, it's just a loss of time and motivation. tl;dr : Ignore trolls/haters, just enjoy develloping your own way to roll on protoss with heavy metal. As long as its viable for you its ok Lynna, I used to be a meching only player in WOL and I'm a big fan of your style, I was very sucessful with it on a low master/high diamond level, ESPECIALLY in TvP, I went from 20% winrate (bio) to 80% (meching). What do you think of current mech in hots in general (after balance patch #9)? Is better/more viable than WOL? What are your thoughts on the 3 MUs? I was very excited with the upgrade merging but now it got nerfed and with the recent medivac buffs I'm thinking of going back to playing bio only (they dont get decimated as easily against P and Z aoe anymore) edit: lol, someone asked almost the same thing | ||
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Lyyna
France776 Posts
On December 14 2012 07:05 mannerless wrote: Lynna, I used to be a meching only player in WOL and I'm a big fan of your style, I was very sucessful with it on a low master/high diamond level, ESPECIALLY in TvP, I went from 20% winrate (bio) to 80% (meching). What do you think of current mech in hots in general (after balance patch #9)? Is better/more viable than WOL? What are your thoughts on the 3 MUs? I was very excited with the upgrade merging but now it got nerfed and with the recent medivac buffs I'm thinking of going back to playing bio only (they dont get decimated as easily against P and Z aoe anymore) TvT : reapers... didnt play any long tvt because the game is decided so early TvP : Better than in Wol, Hellbats gives you a way better damage buffer , and the thor can now fights air well, meaning you wont autodie to an air switch. overall same than in wol , but better' TvZ : Im playing a ghost/raven/mech composition, the matchup feels really funny atm and the balance is ok. the only bad thing is the lack of Aoe AA (or a cheap AA unit) but at least BLs armies can be killed The uppgrade sharing was too strong imo ... 2/2 banshees are scary vP and vZ , vikings with 3-3 annihilates air switches , and bc switch with insta 3/3 was too powerful | ||
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Hider
Denmark9404 Posts
On December 14 2012 06:47 Lyyna wrote: Well , i have the same reaction... with people like you, who just bash something without even knowing what they're talking about... Did you tried mech? Did you attempted differents compositions/strategies/etc? The interesting thing is that a lot of people who bash mech have no experience with it, or really little one (aka 1 rax FE into 2 gas -insert whine about weakness to allins- into tank/hellion -insert whine about archons/chargelots/immortals- into tank/hellion/viking -insert whine about carriers/tempests- , and dont try anything else like building ghosts, using differents builds, etc, because it could prove they're wrong). Most people saying mech is bad are actually showing in their messages the fact that they have no idea what they're talking about. I especially laugh a lot when people say things like "even a standard protoss army can decimate mech" (well, even in WoL a good mech army can destroy any protoss army cost-effectively) or "mech is slow to prod" (guys, this isn't bio, you aren't supposed to sacrifice your units every minute or so) To all people supporting Mech , i'm going to say the same thing i ended up saying in WoL after a lot of "discussions" with people about my guide : Don't care about haters (because yeah, that's what most people are.. hard to have a constructive discussion about Mech actually..), just play whatever style you enjoy. A lot of high masters/GM (including myself) played mech with success in WoL (and even Sea is playing bw-esque mech with success at the highest lvl) and shown mech is viable for actually... 99,99% of SC2 players. It may not be good for pros (and Sea is showing that may not be true in WoL) but well, it's totally OK for normal people. If you find someone able to give you good arguments, and accepts yours, do not hesitate to argue with him. But just ignore people who keep showing their lack of knowledge about this subject, it's just a loss of time and motivation. tl;dr : Ignore trolls/haters, just enjoy develloping your own way to roll on protoss with heavy metal. As long as its viable for you its ok. There is no point in discussing with people with closed mind.. Lyyna problem with your mech style is that its everything mech isn't suposed to be --> super boring. When you have to turtle for 35 min + do get a super deathball and the toss turtles as wel l--> games = boring. For a mech style to be entertaining for both players and spectators protoss should be given options to harass the terran and if terran deals well with harass he should be able to attack pre 20/25 min mark. During that attack protoss shouldn't be able to engage a siged up army. He should try to find weakness's in the terrans's defense --> win time --> tech up to air. | ||
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