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On December 13 2012 13:02 SarcasmMonster wrote:
To make tanks better in TvP, the first change needs to be to the Immortal. My suggestion is to cap the Harden shield...
With patch#9 sharing armor's upgrades, simply let the landed viking share the weapon's upgrades and split it ground attack in two, then land two or three vikings behind the inmortal and beat it. It is the minor change, so it should be tested prior to others.
Remember PEM, widow mines and raven's seeker missiles as alternative damage sources against inmortals. They are support units and must be there, supporting.
Some unit must be the last to die in a protoss ball, so let the inmortal be that unit. Some unit must mark the difference against a mech ball, so let the inmortal be that unit. There is nothing wrong on that.
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On December 13 2012 15:53 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 13:44 starimk wrote:
Also, I'm not sure if Blizzard has forgotten that the Battlecruiser is a Massive air unit as well... I understand that Blizzard wants to nerf Broodlords into the ground, but it would be nice for Terrans to use their capital air ships against Protoss... You can, Battlecruisers got buffed significantly compared to WoL (yay mech armor and air armor upgrades combined), and while the tempest is decent against them, protoss ground to air is pretty bad. Keep their energy low (yamato some rocks?) so you can't get killed by feedback, and remember their armor is so ridiculous (6 armor!) that they live forever. Adding a couple BC's (not more than 2-3) can really beef your army, because protoss isn't going to want to add tempests just for a couple BCs, and if they do the rest of their army will suffer. It was actually a thing for a while where terran would add 3 BC's to their end game army vs. protoss because protoss anti-air sucks vs. bio.
Sorry, but you need to face Tempest only once with your 6 armor BC's to realize, it's just going to lose you the game right there. And I'm sure another +20 vs massive won't help now..
Really, BC's are completly dead TvP now. I hope Blizzard realizes that and makes something about it. 0/3 Vikings won't cut it against tempests. Thors can be kited and if you go too far, you will be pleased with 250 charging zealots. So yeah, it's now basically 3base timing with 2/2 upgrades..
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On December 13 2012 18:02 infoB wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 13:02 SarcasmMonster wrote:
To make tanks better in TvP, the first change needs to be to the Immortal. My suggestion is to cap the Harden shield...
With patch#9 sharing armor's upgrades, simply let the landed viking share the weapon's upgrades and split it ground attack in two, then land two or three vikings behind the inmortal and beat it. It is the minor change, so it should be tested prior to others. Remember PEM, widow mines and raven's seeker missiles as alternative damage sources against inmortals. They are support units and must be there, supporting. Some unit must be the last to die in a protoss ball, so let the inmortal be that unit. Some unit must mark the difference against a mech ball, so let the inmortal be that unit. There is nothing wrong on that.
If you try to make Raven your answer to Immortal, you are going to face much, much scarier things then Immortal, when it comes to battle.
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On December 13 2012 18:02 infoB wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 13:02 SarcasmMonster wrote:
To make tanks better in TvP, the first change needs to be to the Immortal. My suggestion is to cap the Harden shield...
With patch#9 sharing armor's upgrades, simply let the landed viking share the weapon's upgrades and split it ground attack in two, then land two or three vikings behind the inmortal and beat it. It is the minor change, so it should be tested prior to others. Remember PEM, widow mines and raven's seeker missiles as alternative damage sources against inmortals. They are support units and must be there, supporting. Some unit must be the last to die in a protoss ball, so let the inmortal be that unit. Some unit must mark the difference against a mech ball, so let the inmortal be that unit. There is nothing wrong on that.
I'd be all for letting immortals be the last man standing, but they do too much DPS to mech. It's like asking a pure marine army to focus on the stalkers and zealots and leaving the colossi, HTs, or archons for last.
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P doesnt need Immortals or Tempest to beat Mech Terran.The Ball of Chargelots/blinkstalkers/Colosi/Hts is enough.Storms for vikings,cahrgelots for tanks and thors,stalkers for tanks/thors/hellbats and colosi just kill all.When you go out of storms, just make them archons with bonus damage to hellbats.So nice.And guess what???Colossi and Tempest DONT NEED TO SIEGE to do max damage.They move all arround together and if you dare to move,you die...
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On December 13 2012 18:04 Everlong wrote:
Sorry, but you need to face Tempest only once with your 6 armor BC's to realize, it's just going to lose you the game right there. And I'm sure another +20 vs massive won't help now..
Really, BC's are completly dead TvP now. I hope Blizzard realizes that and makes something about it. 0/3 Vikings won't cut it against tempests. Thors can be kited and if you go too far, you will be pleased with 250 charging zealots. So yeah, it's now basically 3base timing with 2/2 upgrades..
Indeed, it's just dumb. I'm more and more disapointed about the changes they make. When Terrans got Warhounds removed just leaving them with 1.5 new units (Widowmine and Hellbat) I thought "Ok, maybe they change the existing ones enough to make them work well against all the new toys of Protoss and Zerg and even their old stuff".
What does Blizzard do? A halfhearted attempt to buff Mechplay, while still ignoring it's problems and even adding new counters to it in TvP. In the same step shutting down Skyterran vP completely and buffing Bio a little to force Terrans to play that even further. HotS is not giving Terrans more options, like you'd expect from an expansion, it takes some away instead.
Edit: For TvZ... with the buffed Mutas, playing Mech will be harder here too. Skyterran has always had it's problems. What's left? Darn Bio style again? God bless there will be some TvTs where you can actually play something different... although I see Terrans being fed up so much that they switch race or stop playing, so TvTs will be rare... great. 
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On December 13 2012 19:02 Dvriel wrote:
P doesnt need Immortals or Tempest to beat Mech Terran.The Ball of Chargelots/blinkstalkers/Colosi/Hts is enough.Storms for vikings,cahrgelots for tanks and thors,stalkers for tanks/thors/hellbats and colosi just kill all.When you go out of storms, just make them archons with bonus damage to hellbats.So nice.And guess what???Colossi and Tempest DONT NEED TO SIEGE to do max damage.They move all arround together and if you dare to move,you die...
That is just not true. Why do you make up things?
HT's won't storm Vikings if Terran is at least diamond/master level. If there are 4-5+ siege tanks, you will not storm nearly anything.
The new Hellbat/Thor basically melts all gateway units (no exception), so with basic upgraded Hellbat/Thor/Tank army you will not lose to standard Zealot/Stalker/Collosus/Ht..
You only need to watch out for 2 things - mass immortals and air.. Otherwise, mech is perfectly playable.
The mass immortal "gimmick" you scout and counter by adding few ghosts.
The air transition you scout and counter by reactored starports + Thors.
BC's are not allowed now.
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On December 13 2012 19:04 BurningRanger wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 18:04 Everlong wrote:
Sorry, but you need to face Tempest only once with your 6 armor BC's to realize, it's just going to lose you the game right there. And I'm sure another +20 vs massive won't help now..
Really, BC's are completly dead TvP now. I hope Blizzard realizes that and makes something about it. 0/3 Vikings won't cut it against tempests. Thors can be kited and if you go too far, you will be pleased with 250 charging zealots. So yeah, it's now basically 3base timing with 2/2 upgrades.. Indeed, it's just dumb. I'm more and more disapointed about the changes they make. When Terrans got Warhounds removed just leaving them with 1.5 new units (Widowmine and Hellbat) I thought "Ok, maybe they change the existing ones enough to make them work well against all the new toys of Protoss and Zerg and even their old stuff". What does Blizzard do? A halfhearted attempt to buff Mechplay, while still ignoring it's problems and even adding new counters to it in TvP. In the same step shutting down Skyterran vP completely and buffing Bio a little to force Terrans to play that even further. HotS is not giving Terrans more options, like you'd expect from an expansion, it takes some away instead. Edit: For TvZ... with the buffed Mutas, playing Mech will be harder here too. Skyterran has always had it's problems. What's left? Darn Bio style again? God bless there will be some TvTs where you can actually play something different... although I see Terrans being fed up so much that they switch race or stop playing, so TvTs will be rare... great.
I think mech is going to be playable, because now you can somewhat destroy Protoss ground with Hellbat/Tank/Thor + few ghosts/mines. This composition you can get on 3 bases and you can even go for dual armory upgrades. But problem is the new Protoss air so you need to constantly scan to see those stargates and then go kill him.. I think 2/2 timing on 3 bases will work great against Protoss.
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On December 13 2012 19:13 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 19:02 Dvriel wrote:
P doesnt need Immortals or Tempest to beat Mech Terran.The Ball of Chargelots/blinkstalkers/Colosi/Hts is enough.Storms for vikings,cahrgelots for tanks and thors,stalkers for tanks/thors/hellbats and colosi just kill all.When you go out of storms, just make them archons with bonus damage to hellbats.So nice.And guess what???Colossi and Tempest DONT NEED TO SIEGE to do max damage.They move all arround together and if you dare to move,you die... That is just not true. Why do you make up things? HT's won't storm Vikings if Terran is at least diamond/master level. If there are 4-5+ siege tanks, you will not storm nearly anything. The new Hellbat/Thor basically melts all gateway units (no exception), so with basic upgraded Hellbat/Thor/Tank army you will not lose to standard Zealot/Stalker/Collosus/Ht.. You only need to watch out for 2 things - mass immortals and air.. Otherwise, mech is perfectly playable. The mass immortal "gimmick" you scout and counter by adding few ghosts. The air transition you scout and counter by reactored starports + Thors. BC's are not allowed now.
Pretty much this. Played against a couple high rated T players going mech and, as long as you scout efficiently, mech is very hard to break and very hard to engage. And once it's late game, ghostmech is terrifying.
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The "ghostmech by avilo" thread there is somewhere lost I think is now very viable. Only we need to find solid opening. 150/150 dark shrine, fleet beacon for tempest, Hellbat, Thor without energy, Widow mines, all this helps tremendously.. Mass immortal you will always lose against if not scouted and always win if scouted. So only air is problematic now. In WoL, Protoss could just 1a with standard composition, that is not possible now..
If anything, below the absolutely top level I'm sure ghostmech is going to be playable with success.
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On December 13 2012 19:20 Vlare wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 19:13 Everlong wrote:On December 13 2012 19:02 Dvriel wrote:
P doesnt need Immortals or Tempest to beat Mech Terran.The Ball of Chargelots/blinkstalkers/Colosi/Hts is enough.Storms for vikings,cahrgelots for tanks and thors,stalkers for tanks/thors/hellbats and colosi just kill all.When you go out of storms, just make them archons with bonus damage to hellbats.So nice.And guess what???Colossi and Tempest DONT NEED TO SIEGE to do max damage.They move all arround together and if you dare to move,you die... That is just not true. Why do you make up things? HT's won't storm Vikings if Terran is at least diamond/master level. If there are 4-5+ siege tanks, you will not storm nearly anything. The new Hellbat/Thor basically melts all gateway units (no exception), so with basic upgraded Hellbat/Thor/Tank army you will not lose to standard Zealot/Stalker/Collosus/Ht.. You only need to watch out for 2 things - mass immortals and air.. Otherwise, mech is perfectly playable. The mass immortal "gimmick" you scout and counter by adding few ghosts. The air transition you scout and counter by reactored starports + Thors. BC's are not allowed now. Pretty much this. Played against a couple high rated T players going mech and, as long as you scout efficiently, mech is very hard to break and very hard to engage. And once it's late game, ghostmech is terrifying.
Ghost /mech is terrifying but Air toss is even more so.
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On December 13 2012 19:33 Everlong wrote:
The "ghostmech by avilo" thread there is somewhere lost I think is now very viable. Only we need to find solid opening. 150/150 dark shrine, fleet beacon for tempest, Hellbat, Thor without energy, Widow mines, all this helps tremendously.. Mass immortal you will always lose against if not scouted and always win if scouted. So only air is problematic now. In WoL, Protoss could just 1a with standard composition, that is not possible now..
If anything, below the absolutely top level I'm sure ghostmech is going to be playable with success.
Really? What Pro plays Mech TvP nowadays???Look at this thread and you will find what avilo thinks.The only thing Blizz did is add more counters(Tempest) to mech in HotS.In my games,Protoss dont amove if they are not bronze.If gold or better they walk arround all day,taking expansions, not allowing me to move,denying hellions harass with 300 cannons and when engage they put HTs behind or go arround to throw storms...I barelly stay on 3 bases and they got the money to transition to whatever...
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On December 13 2012 19:50 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 19:33 Everlong wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
The "ghostmech by avilo" thread there is somewhere lost I think is now very viable. Only we need to find solid opening. 150/150 dark shrine, fleet beacon for tempest, Hellbat, Thor without energy, Widow mines, all this helps tremendously.. Mass immortal you will always lose against if not scouted and always win if scouted. So only air is problematic now. In WoL, Protoss could just 1a with standard composition, that is not possible now..
If anything, below the absolutely top level I'm sure ghostmech is going to be playable with success.
Really? What Pro plays Mech TvP nowadays???Look at this thread and you will find what avilo thinks.The only thing Blizz did is add more counters(Tempest) to mech in HotS.In my games,Protoss dont amove if they are not bronze.If gold or better they walk arround all day,taking expansions, not allowing me to move,denying hellions harass with 300 cannons and when engage they put HTs behind or go arround to throw storms...I barelly stay on 3 bases and they got the money to transition to whatever...
The problem with Mech in TvP is still that you can't hold ground with just sieged Tanks, but you can't move around in a ball all the time either, because the Thors are too slow. To cover several bases though you need either a strong defense that is ok to be stretched somewhat thin or a mobile Army to run for defense quickly. Lacking both means fewer bases and that means not enough income to run such an expensive army.
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I won't waste more time losing to terrible protoss players with this.
Its marine time! Pew pew!
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On December 13 2012 21:18 BoggieMan wrote:
I won't waste more time losing to terrible protoss players with this.
Its marine time! Pew pew!
I feel the same... Most of my games against Protoss is simply go for early aggression, and if the game is not over by 15 min. mark i leave the game unless i am at a significant advantage. Mech is not going to be viable as long as you can a-move and still win against Mech, as you can with Tempest right now. Terran have no way to counter Tempest/High Templar aside from severly outplaying the Protoss. This seems like the new Infestor/Brood Lord Deathball Protoss edition.
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On December 13 2012 21:47 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 21:18 BoggieMan wrote:
I won't waste more time losing to terrible protoss players with this.
Its marine time! Pew pew! I feel the same... Most of my games against Protoss is simply go for early aggression, and if the game is not over by 15 min. mark i leave the game unless i am at a significant advantage. Mech is not going to be viable as long as you can a-move and still win against Mech, as you can with Tempest right now. Terran have no way to counter Tempest/High Templar aside from severly outplaying the Protoss. This seems like the new Infestor/Brood Lord Deathball Protoss edition.
I dunno the new Thors do really well against Tempests with HIP. i played against a Masters toss who transitioned into mass tempest with chargelot for mineral dump and owned him easily with Thor, Ghost, Hellbat, and a few ravens for PDD. The tempest shots are soooooo slow that the PDD has enough time to keep regenerating energy in between shots and since the tempest no longer do full damage vs massive SCVS can easily out repair the damage. he can keep kiting back into his base but meanwhile my hellbats are going to town on his probes and my Thors are DPSing down his expansions.
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On December 13 2012 19:20 Vlare wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 19:13 Everlong wrote:On December 13 2012 19:02 Dvriel wrote:
P doesnt need Immortals or Tempest to beat Mech Terran.The Ball of Chargelots/blinkstalkers/Colosi/Hts is enough.Storms for vikings,cahrgelots for tanks and thors,stalkers for tanks/thors/hellbats and colosi just kill all.When you go out of storms, just make them archons with bonus damage to hellbats.So nice.And guess what???Colossi and Tempest DONT NEED TO SIEGE to do max damage.They move all arround together and if you dare to move,you die... That is just not true. Why do you make up things? HT's won't storm Vikings if Terran is at least diamond/master level. If there are 4-5+ siege tanks, you will not storm nearly anything. The new Hellbat/Thor basically melts all gateway units (no exception), so with basic upgraded Hellbat/Thor/Tank army you will not lose to standard Zealot/Stalker/Collosus/Ht.. You only need to watch out for 2 things - mass immortals and air.. Otherwise, mech is perfectly playable. The mass immortal "gimmick" you scout and counter by adding few ghosts. The air transition you scout and counter by reactored starports + Thors. BC's are not allowed now. Pretty much this. Played against a couple high rated T players going mech and, as long as you scout efficiently, mech is very hard to break and very hard to engage. And once it's late game, ghostmech is terrifying.
idd gateway units become almost wasted supply :/ finding it really hard atm to deal with mech, especially once they can produce a decent number of vikings... as the only things protoss has to deal with tanks on mass is really only collosus and temp, as immortals are great but by the time they have taken out the first line of tanks, they are all dead or have no sheilds left...
phonex openings vs terran is really good and if you can get a decent amount of dmg done you can max before terran can which means you dont have to deal with it, but in close games, there is just no way to deal with a late game mech army now... :/
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On December 13 2012 19:46 Breach_hu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 19:20 Vlare wrote:On December 13 2012 19:13 Everlong wrote:On December 13 2012 19:02 Dvriel wrote:
P doesnt need Immortals or Tempest to beat Mech Terran.The Ball of Chargelots/blinkstalkers/Colosi/Hts is enough.Storms for vikings,cahrgelots for tanks and thors,stalkers for tanks/thors/hellbats and colosi just kill all.When you go out of storms, just make them archons with bonus damage to hellbats.So nice.And guess what???Colossi and Tempest DONT NEED TO SIEGE to do max damage.They move all arround together and if you dare to move,you die... That is just not true. Why do you make up things? HT's won't storm Vikings if Terran is at least diamond/master level. If there are 4-5+ siege tanks, you will not storm nearly anything. The new Hellbat/Thor basically melts all gateway units (no exception), so with basic upgraded Hellbat/Thor/Tank army you will not lose to standard Zealot/Stalker/Collosus/Ht.. You only need to watch out for 2 things - mass immortals and air.. Otherwise, mech is perfectly playable. The mass immortal "gimmick" you scout and counter by adding few ghosts. The air transition you scout and counter by reactored starports + Thors. BC's are not allowed now. Pretty much this. Played against a couple high rated T players going mech and, as long as you scout efficiently, mech is very hard to break and very hard to engage. And once it's late game, ghostmech is terrifying. Ghost /mech is terrifying but Air toss is even more so.
But can't you just play the game where you don't allow him to get mass air? I mean, of course, when mech dominates all ground, other races are going to try different paths. In WoL you could very well just lose to basic 1a from Protoss. Now it's at least even. Sure, there is this air tech switch Protoss is able to do. But that is no different from WoL or even BW. Since mech does not need so many minerals, you can afford to scan his bases and composition/production fairly often to catch up. I would not give up so fast mate..
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On December 13 2012 19:13 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 19:02 Dvriel wrote:
P doesnt need Immortals or Tempest to beat Mech Terran.The Ball of Chargelots/blinkstalkers/Colosi/Hts is enough.Storms for vikings,cahrgelots for tanks and thors,stalkers for tanks/thors/hellbats and colosi just kill all.When you go out of storms, just make them archons with bonus damage to hellbats.So nice.And guess what???Colossi and Tempest DONT NEED TO SIEGE to do max damage.They move all arround together and if you dare to move,you die... That is just not true. Why do you make up things? HT's won't storm Vikings if Terran is at least diamond/master level. If there are 4-5+ siege tanks, you will not storm nearly anything. The new Hellbat/Thor basically melts all gateway units (no exception), so with basic upgraded Hellbat/Thor/Tank army you will not lose to standard Zealot/Stalker/Collosus/Ht.. You only need to watch out for 2 things - mass immortals and air.. Otherwise, mech is perfectly playable. The mass immortal "gimmick" you scout and counter by adding few ghosts. The air transition you scout and counter by reactored starports + Thors. BC's are not allowed now.
just watched drewbie got his mech army/vikings got stormed trying to engage the tempest ball.
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On December 14 2012 01:09 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 19:13 Everlong wrote:On December 13 2012 19:02 Dvriel wrote:
P doesnt need Immortals or Tempest to beat Mech Terran.The Ball of Chargelots/blinkstalkers/Colosi/Hts is enough.Storms for vikings,cahrgelots for tanks and thors,stalkers for tanks/thors/hellbats and colosi just kill all.When you go out of storms, just make them archons with bonus damage to hellbats.So nice.And guess what???Colossi and Tempest DONT NEED TO SIEGE to do max damage.They move all arround together and if you dare to move,you die... That is just not true. Why do you make up things? HT's won't storm Vikings if Terran is at least diamond/master level. If there are 4-5+ siege tanks, you will not storm nearly anything. The new Hellbat/Thor basically melts all gateway units (no exception), so with basic upgraded Hellbat/Thor/Tank army you will not lose to standard Zealot/Stalker/Collosus/Ht.. You only need to watch out for 2 things - mass immortals and air.. Otherwise, mech is perfectly playable. The mass immortal "gimmick" you scout and counter by adding few ghosts. The air transition you scout and counter by reactored starports + Thors. BC's are not allowed now. just watched drewbie got his mech army/vikings got stormed trying to engage the tempest ball.
Yes, critical mass of Tempests with support (HTs) will destroy basically everything.. It's the new bl/infestor/corruptor.
Now, why would you say something like this as an answer to my post?
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EPT
