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On October 08 2012 21:29 cari-kira wrote:
MS Core change:
MS core should be a defensive unit to let protoss safely expand.
I dont know if this is the case when the actual damage output is done by a nexus.
you dont have a nexus in choke points or at your army, where the fight takes place.
what use does purify have, when you fight at the choke of your natural against a 1base colossus push?
or against blink stalker destroying your production?
with this mothership core expanding will mean death in PvP again.
Orcale:
i have no words for the random abilities the oracle gets one after another.
and the funny thing is: everything is complete boring, weird or useless.
This one is boring.
"oh look an oracle is zipping on my building. guess i have to call a mule/pump 3 drones and send a queen/viking."
its only a problem in pvp, because protoss has no anti air with range >6. and it will create situations where an oracle will stay behind the main of the opponent and constantly zipping away on pylons and gates built at the edge of the main.
and the opponent has to build a unit just for the sole purpose of killing that oracle, if he wants.
every other counterunit to the oracle has another purpose, wueens do injects and are ofc always valuable to zerg, vikings are useable against every other stargate unit and colossus, but the protoss in pvp has to build a stargate and a üphoenix to kill this oracle, and the whole tech is usually useless after. that, because the stargate is useless after all in all matchups despite of being used in openings in PvZ and PvP (and vortex ofc).
widow mine:
completely overpowered.
a cloaked unit that DETECTS AND KILLS cloaked units?
are you kidding?
works against the tech units (DT, Banshee, Burrowed infestor) and not against the boring, usual harass methods (mass lings, zealot warpin, marine drop (you scan before a drop and will reveal mines).
i am really disappointed with the HOTS patches so far, they look totally random to me and not thought through at all.
its like "we change random things until the community says 'ok.'""
not professional at all. and it does not work this way. the community will eventually say "ok" when we are exhausted enough because of the many patches and changes, even when the game is not good enough to be released.
that is because we dont get paid for it, are younger and no professionals and therefore are at our limits much faster.
dont try to let the community do work for you, you wont get quality results and your product wont develop.
you have to do the work yourself.
tl;dr
these random patches lead to nowhere.
agreed , it's looked more like a guy that make change over and over again to its mod, instead of an expansion done by Blizzard
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i agree that mines shouldnt detect, its not like the game in general or terran in particular need even more detection options
as for MsC: what about letting MsC only move in pylon-powered areas? that way it cant be used for early allins and can still have its strong purify ability on itself, instead of putting it on a nexus where its basically worthless
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On October 08 2012 23:28 summerloud wrote:
i agree that mines shouldnt detect, its not like the game in general or terran in particular need even more detection options
as for MsC: what about letting MsC only move in pylon-powered areas? that way it cant be used for early allins and can still have its strong purify ability on itself, instead of putting it on a nexus where its basically worthless
MsC takes X damage per second when outside of pylon power, which means it can leave pylon power for a duration before it needs to return to save itself. (Or Warp Prisms if you have the multitasking).
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Some points that probably should be brought up:
One of the design needs that Terran had was that they needed a way to protect their bases against harass, sans-army. Other races have cheap, relatively spammable, no-supply options in Spine Crawlers and Photon Cannons. Now, because Terran gets free supply in the form of mules, it's not too cruel to impose a small supply-tax on their defense. Widow Mine now serves this role - at a 2-4 supply cost per base, you can insure that any harass loses its first few units.
Most of the problems here stem from 2 things: Widow Mines burrow super-fast, and you can get them super-fast. This enables offensive use, which is clearly not the intent. They're also meant to complement Mech, but because of the easy access, they complement everything.
Any number of ways to bring these into balance - they're not fundamentally broken. Cost increase, access limit (armory), or burrow time change would all work.
-Cross
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On October 08 2012 23:16 Garmer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 21:29 cari-kira wrote:
MS Core change:
MS core should be a defensive unit to let protoss safely expand.
I dont know if this is the case when the actual damage output is done by a nexus.
you dont have a nexus in choke points or at your army, where the fight takes place.
what use does purify have, when you fight at the choke of your natural against a 1base colossus push?
or against blink stalker destroying your production?
with this mothership core expanding will mean death in PvP again.
Orcale:
i have no words for the random abilities the oracle gets one after another.
and the funny thing is: everything is complete boring, weird or useless.
This one is boring.
"oh look an oracle is zipping on my building. guess i have to call a mule/pump 3 drones and send a queen/viking."
its only a problem in pvp, because protoss has no anti air with range >6. and it will create situations where an oracle will stay behind the main of the opponent and constantly zipping away on pylons and gates built at the edge of the main.
and the opponent has to build a unit just for the sole purpose of killing that oracle, if he wants.
every other counterunit to the oracle has another purpose, wueens do injects and are ofc always valuable to zerg, vikings are useable against every other stargate unit and colossus, but the protoss in pvp has to build a stargate and a üphoenix to kill this oracle, and the whole tech is usually useless after. that, because the stargate is useless after all in all matchups despite of being used in openings in PvZ and PvP (and vortex ofc).
widow mine:
completely overpowered.
a cloaked unit that DETECTS AND KILLS cloaked units?
are you kidding?
works against the tech units (DT, Banshee, Burrowed infestor) and not against the boring, usual harass methods (mass lings, zealot warpin, marine drop (you scan before a drop and will reveal mines).
i am really disappointed with the HOTS patches so far, they look totally random to me and not thought through at all.
its like "we change random things until the community says 'ok.'""
not professional at all. and it does not work this way. the community will eventually say "ok" when we are exhausted enough because of the many patches and changes, even when the game is not good enough to be released.
that is because we dont get paid for it, are younger and no professionals and therefore are at our limits much faster.
dont try to let the community do work for you, you wont get quality results and your product wont develop.
you have to do the work yourself.
tl;dr
these random patches lead to nowhere. agreed , it's looked more like a guy that make change over and over again to its mod, instead of an expansion done by Blizzard
I believe this is called the beta TEST phase, let them test their ideas
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Widow Mine
This unit has a new missile ability called Unstable Payload.
Unstable Payload is an auto-cast ability that initiates once the Widow Mine is burrowed. It cannot be turned off unless the unit is unburrowed.
This ability launches a missile at a target within 5 range, then starts to rearm another missile.
Unstable Payload does 160 damage to a single target and 40 splash damage.
The missile auto-acquires cloaked units. (Note: It will auto attack cloaked units without having detection.)
The missile auto-acquires temporary units like Hallucinations, Infested Terrans, and Locusts.
It takes 40 seconds to rearm the missile. The cost is free for now.
The build time of this unit has increased to 40 seconds.
I'm not seeing how this is any different than the shredder. It needs to be burrowed to attack. It does AoE to air and ground. They removed the shredder because it was strong and could be used offensively. Now they put it back in and called it a "mine." I really don't get this change, and wish they'd come up with new and interesting ideas instead of circling around to the same things again and again.
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On October 08 2012 21:50 cari-kira wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 21:38 Teoita wrote:On October 08 2012 21:36 cari-kira wrote:On October 08 2012 21:32 Teoita wrote:widow mine:
completely overpowered.
a cloaked unit that DETECTS AND KILLS cloaked units?
are you kidding?
how should you kill such a thing?
*cough* http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Spider_Mine *cough* @chosi: 5 oracles is 1k gas, and in return i get...minrals. Not exactly a cheap or smart investment spider mine is range 1, not range 5.. Numbers can and will be tweaked. The point of a unit is op simply because is both cloaked and detects is silly; of course a unit that can kill whatever can detect it before it gets detected is op but that's why there's a beta going on. now you did manage to state an opinion and disagree yourself in the same sentence. and my point is, that these changes are random and lead nowhere. there is no direction. you want examples? - tempest was meant to deal with great muta flocks because protoss needs useful anti air against this. in the meantine zergs learned that they can just build roaches and then tech straight to infestors/gglords. so bliz forgot about the muta problem and tempest is now a long range siege unit, something nobody needed. - the oracle was changed to break open the PvZ lategame. now they give the oracle complete new abilities and forget about the PvZ lategame. you understand my point? its like 1single person does all these changes, and this person has alzheimer's disease and forgets everything after 2 week.
Hi. The Tempest was designed when massive muta flocks were the problem. They are no longer the problem. The problem is now that the Protoss no longer has the ability to engage brood lord deathballs without a lucky vortex. The new tempest solves this problem.
Funny how that works. Are you going to whine about everything or are you just whining in the same random pattern you claim Blizzard are buffing in?
Also, beta. Bye.
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On October 08 2012 23:43 yourself2k8 wrote:Show nested quote +Widow Mine
This unit has a new missile ability called Unstable Payload.
Unstable Payload is an auto-cast ability that initiates once the Widow Mine is burrowed. It cannot be turned off unless the unit is unburrowed.
This ability launches a missile at a target within 5 range, then starts to rearm another missile.
Unstable Payload does 160 damage to a single target and 40 splash damage.
The missile auto-acquires cloaked units. (Note: It will auto attack cloaked units without having detection.)
The missile auto-acquires temporary units like Hallucinations, Infested Terrans, and Locusts.
It takes 40 seconds to rearm the missile. The cost is free for now.
The build time of this unit has increased to 40 seconds. I'm not seeing how this is any different than the shredder. It needs to be burrowed to attack. It does AoE to air and ground. They removed the shredder because it was strong and could be used offensively. Now they put it back in and called it a "mine." I really don't get this change, and wish they'd come up with new and interesting ideas instead of circling around to the same things again and again.
The shredder did not have a 40 second reload time
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On October 09 2012 00:13 arcHoniC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 23:43 yourself2k8 wrote:Widow Mine
This unit has a new missile ability called Unstable Payload.
Unstable Payload is an auto-cast ability that initiates once the Widow Mine is burrowed. It cannot be turned off unless the unit is unburrowed.
This ability launches a missile at a target within 5 range, then starts to rearm another missile.
Unstable Payload does 160 damage to a single target and 40 splash damage.
The missile auto-acquires cloaked units. (Note: It will auto attack cloaked units without having detection.)
The missile auto-acquires temporary units like Hallucinations, Infested Terrans, and Locusts.
It takes 40 seconds to rearm the missile. The cost is free for now.
The build time of this unit has increased to 40 seconds. I'm not seeing how this is any different than the shredder. It needs to be burrowed to attack. It does AoE to air and ground. They removed the shredder because it was strong and could be used offensively. Now they put it back in and called it a "mine." I really don't get this change, and wish they'd come up with new and interesting ideas instead of circling around to the same things again and again. The shredder did not have a 40 second reload time
If that was all they needed to add to keep the shredder, why didn't they just add that and remove the mine?
My point is that now that the mine doesn't self destruct, it is in concept the same as the shredder. It fills the same role that the shredder did, a role that the terran didn't need. Its just as easy to abuse offensively as the shredder was, which was the reason the shredder was removed in the first place. They made a change to an existing unit and turned it into a unit that they decided to remove earlier. What gives?
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It's like the goal is to make the oracle as gimmicky as humanely possible. They have a clear role designated for it (harass), but they absolutely don't want to make that harass dangerous or particularly useful in any way.
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glad that the MS core doesn't have to attach to the nexus anymore, nexus can be a big cannon now :D
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On October 08 2012 21:55 DarkSeth wrote:
Unfortunately blizzard opened this can of bullshit when they decided to reveal their plans to the masses. Trying to please all of you AND design something good just does not work. Every good idea they come up with gets shot down by the community as OP, bad design, Blizzard have no idea where they are going, not enough like BW, too much like BW, and so on. Game developers have to realize that most of the posts on the internet are nothing more than rants written by bitter halftrolls that have nothing better to do than trying to write intelligent complaint posts to boost their egos. The problem with this expansion is not Blizzard, it is the average forum junkie that base their conclusions on posts and videos. The problem with this expansion is not the ideas, but their inability to follow them through... The reason so many of you seem to think HotS will be bad has nothing to do with Blizzard, it has to do with YOU...
Fortunately there are still quite a few that try to discuss this from an objective point of view... Let's just hope blizzard decides to listen to you and not to the average consumer...
.
*golf claps*
Post of the week award imo
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Here's why the Oracle is bad design. 3 min/s, that sounds good right? That's a whole Mule. Wrong. Harass units have short burst windows to be cost effective. Mules can safely farm in their base, Oracle has to be under threat of fire to work. Blue-flame Hellions, 1 shot 8 workers at a time, that's 800+ minerals/s that cuts directly into your enemy's economy. A harass unit that requires you to sit there is the worst mechanic ever conceived.
Making your opponent lose resources is more important than you gaining relatively more resources. Loss of resources destroys your enemies morale and screws up their strategy. It also costs them more resources to recoup that deficit. That's harass. Siphon, not harass. Destroy workers in milliseconds, harass. Siphon not harass. Destroying key tech instantly, harass.
Protoss doesn't need any more take X seconds to make opponent sad abilities.
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On October 08 2012 23:39 billywayne wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 23:16 Garmer wrote:On October 08 2012 21:29 cari-kira wrote:
MS Core change:
MS core should be a defensive unit to let protoss safely expand.
I dont know if this is the case when the actual damage output is done by a nexus.
you dont have a nexus in choke points or at your army, where the fight takes place.
what use does purify have, when you fight at the choke of your natural against a 1base colossus push?
or against blink stalker destroying your production?
with this mothership core expanding will mean death in PvP again.
Orcale:
i have no words for the random abilities the oracle gets one after another.
and the funny thing is: everything is complete boring, weird or useless.
This one is boring.
"oh look an oracle is zipping on my building. guess i have to call a mule/pump 3 drones and send a queen/viking."
its only a problem in pvp, because protoss has no anti air with range >6. and it will create situations where an oracle will stay behind the main of the opponent and constantly zipping away on pylons and gates built at the edge of the main.
and the opponent has to build a unit just for the sole purpose of killing that oracle, if he wants.
every other counterunit to the oracle has another purpose, wueens do injects and are ofc always valuable to zerg, vikings are useable against every other stargate unit and colossus, but the protoss in pvp has to build a stargate and a üphoenix to kill this oracle, and the whole tech is usually useless after. that, because the stargate is useless after all in all matchups despite of being used in openings in PvZ and PvP (and vortex ofc).
widow mine:
completely overpowered.
a cloaked unit that DETECTS AND KILLS cloaked units?
are you kidding?
works against the tech units (DT, Banshee, Burrowed infestor) and not against the boring, usual harass methods (mass lings, zealot warpin, marine drop (you scan before a drop and will reveal mines).
i am really disappointed with the HOTS patches so far, they look totally random to me and not thought through at all.
its like "we change random things until the community says 'ok.'""
not professional at all. and it does not work this way. the community will eventually say "ok" when we are exhausted enough because of the many patches and changes, even when the game is not good enough to be released.
that is because we dont get paid for it, are younger and no professionals and therefore are at our limits much faster.
dont try to let the community do work for you, you wont get quality results and your product wont develop.
you have to do the work yourself.
tl;dr
these random patches lead to nowhere. agreed , it's looked more like a guy that make change over and over again to its mod, instead of an expansion done by Blizzard I believe this is called the beta TEST phase, let them test their ideas
Sure, basically people are disappointed with their ideas...they wish blizzard came up with better stuff. People want to test interesting stuff, not stuff that already at the first glance seems very imbalanced or boring.
So instead of testing more warhounds and tempests, how about something useful, yet balanced?
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I'm fine with the changes but my problem with the widow mine is that zerg doesn't have any low risk detection (terran has scans and protoss has obs) every time zerg wants to clear out a mine field he/she has to send out an overseer which cost supply and can be easily picked off I think that the viper ability to give detection was a good idea maybe put that on an ammo system?? 1 per viper? right now there is no real way to kill terran unless it is stupid early imo
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On October 09 2012 02:48 TheKwangBang wrote:
I'm fine with the changes but my problem with the widow mine is that zerg doesn't have any low risk detection (terran has scans and protoss has obs) every time zerg wants to clear out a mine field he/she has to send out an overseer which cost supply and can be easily picked off I think that the viper ability to give detection was a good idea maybe put that on an ammo system?? 1 per viper? right now there is no real way to kill terran unless it is stupid early imo
maybe changelings set off mines?
also the games DOES NOT need any more detection. zerg has the worst detection, its called a racial disadvantage. deal with it.
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The mines may need some fixing, but they are fun. And Terran wasn't a whole lot of fun before the latest Widow mine addition.
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Can they do something cool with the oracle now? I think phase shield had more utility - but if it's too explicit (countering fungal) they can give a more flexible skill, like make the oracle recharge your armies shields (like a shield battery costs energy) and when doing so it can't be moved. It'll soften or negate fungal damage without denying the root, and gives it something useful against all races/matchups.
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On October 09 2012 01:45 yourself2k8 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2012 00:13 arcHoniC wrote:On October 08 2012 23:43 yourself2k8 wrote:Widow Mine
This unit has a new missile ability called Unstable Payload.
Unstable Payload is an auto-cast ability that initiates once the Widow Mine is burrowed. It cannot be turned off unless the unit is unburrowed.
This ability launches a missile at a target within 5 range, then starts to rearm another missile.
Unstable Payload does 160 damage to a single target and 40 splash damage.
The missile auto-acquires cloaked units. (Note: It will auto attack cloaked units without having detection.)
The missile auto-acquires temporary units like Hallucinations, Infested Terrans, and Locusts.
It takes 40 seconds to rearm the missile. The cost is free for now.
The build time of this unit has increased to 40 seconds. I'm not seeing how this is any different than the shredder. It needs to be burrowed to attack. It does AoE to air and ground. They removed the shredder because it was strong and could be used offensively. Now they put it back in and called it a "mine." I really don't get this change, and wish they'd come up with new and interesting ideas instead of circling around to the same things again and again. The shredder did not have a 40 second reload time If that was all they needed to add to keep the shredder, why didn't they just add that and remove the mine? My point is that now that the mine doesn't self destruct, it is in concept the same as the shredder. It fills the same role that the shredder did, a role that the terran didn't need. Its just as easy to abuse offensively as the shredder was, which was the reason the shredder was removed in the first place. They made a change to an existing unit and turned it into a unit that they decided to remove earlier. What gives?
It right now makes Mech kinda work in TvP though . Because after the they changed Battle Helions Bio they really became bad in TvP since they melt to Archons like crazy.
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Well Im not the one who is happy to play in the beta, but after watching some games I came to the following conclusions about the recent patch:
Oracle is just "meh!":
The Problem may be not the spell they keep switching, it is more the overall design and purpose.
The Oracle feels like a forced harrasment unit. I mean... there is NO unit in the game, whose spell is JUST a harrassment spell... this is what I dont like about it... and the new spell is doing the same thing, but it does it even worse. Siphon was, in my eyes, an interesting spell for the corrupter, because it really adds sth. to them, because they dont get useless after they killed their air targets.
MsC seems to be balanced, but still not very interesting gameplay wise, making the mothehrship a STRONG defence and saftey unit that stays at home and is not easily killed... that is the way to deal with I think. Keep it out of the deathball, keep it at home, let it be strong at home (current purify seems good), let it have teleport (maybe a single teleport for low energy and a mass teleport for high energy). single teleport spell gives harrasment possibilities, requieres a lot of skill...
I like this idea! 
Widow Mine: Design wise finally sth. that is interesting. Balance is another thing, but I dont worry about that right now. But man do I hope the Widowmine stays like this and will just get some adjustments to Numbers.
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EPT
