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I like how every time I check up on this post, the OP is formatted a bit better each time. Made me chuckle a few times.
I hope they refine the Widow Mine so that it allows some form of micro from the Mine, kinda like stop Lurkers or burrowed Banelings. Right now, it doesn't really allow for any kind of stealthy ambush tactics since the ability is on a passive autocast. But considering that this change was conjured up in the span of a single week, I wouldn't be surprised if this was just the result of hasty programming/design for quick experimentation rather than be representative of the final product, so I'm expecting more changes down the line.
I like the concept of this new Mine. A bit more refinement and balance tweaks would make it even better.
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On October 06 2012 22:07 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 22:03 Big J wrote:On October 06 2012 21:57 Teoita wrote:
It'd be cool even if it was used just in PvZ lategame to have something that helps with infestors.
And i agree with your comment on fungal. Or specifically the interaction between fungal and bl's, as well as how ridicolously well Infestors scale well together in the lategame. Ghosts, Templar and Sentries all lose effectiveness past a certain count (and Ravens are underused/bad/impossible to transition into/whatever), with Infestors the more the merrier. woaaaaaa. Then you haven't seen Byun or DeMuslims lategame in TvP, if you think ghosts lose effectiveness past a certain count. Yeah, mass infestor is pretty, pretty good, but you know, that's what happens if you don't give a race a good, universal standard combat unit. The game is going to get balanced/evolved around the unit that fulfills that role best. Maybe the removal of the phase shield points towards blizzard wanting to change the Infestor anyways in a few weeks. I'd hope so. Wasn't that before the nerf to snipe though? Yeah high ghost counts are good, but it's not THE only way for Terran to win, like mass infestor is for Zerg (or close to that). I agree on the potential for an Infestor change though. In general with the Swarm Host and Viper, i think Hive tech could be redesigned. Right now it's almost the only way for Z to win a game, by giving them more Lair tech options like they did i think there's the possibility of toning down Infestor/Broodlord and Hive tech in general a bit so it's not what Zerg rushes for to finish the game (outside of 2-3 base timings like 2-2muta ling in zvt or roach max in zvp), but rather something they can go into once they have an advantage from a Lair tech midgame and use that for the finishing blow. Hope that made sense.
It's after the nerf. TO be honest, I only saw Demuslim do it once or twice (yet I hardly watch a lot of demuslim to begin with), but there was a GSL series with Byun, where he basically went ghost only (as ground units) multiple times in TvP lategame.
I agree with Hive redesign. Hive should be the thing you get to get the 3-3(-3), the adrenalin glands, the support caster etc etc, and if you were forced into corruptors or if the opponent turtles really hard, you should be allowed to go broods as a siege weapon.
It absolutly shouldn't be the "can't play macro without Hive army"-thing it is right now.
The basic problem simply is, that zerg is lacking the real T2 ranged damage, that allows you to attack an opponent even (or especially) if he minimizes surface area. Well, zerg has it, it's the infestor. It's just not really possible to have continous swarm dynamics with an energy based unit, so it's deahball vs deathball...
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Glad to see blizzard is putting so much effort into zerg
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zerg are ok, other races no
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On October 06 2012 23:10 hpTheGreat wrote:
Glad to see blizzard is putting so much effort into zerg
There's nothing about zerg that needs fixing right now, aside from changing the older units.
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Italy12246 Posts
On October 06 2012 23:01 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 22:07 Teoita wrote:On October 06 2012 22:03 Big J wrote:On October 06 2012 21:57 Teoita wrote:
It'd be cool even if it was used just in PvZ lategame to have something that helps with infestors.
And i agree with your comment on fungal. Or specifically the interaction between fungal and bl's, as well as how ridicolously well Infestors scale well together in the lategame. Ghosts, Templar and Sentries all lose effectiveness past a certain count (and Ravens are underused/bad/impossible to transition into/whatever), with Infestors the more the merrier. woaaaaaa. Then you haven't seen Byun or DeMuslims lategame in TvP, if you think ghosts lose effectiveness past a certain count. Yeah, mass infestor is pretty, pretty good, but you know, that's what happens if you don't give a race a good, universal standard combat unit. The game is going to get balanced/evolved around the unit that fulfills that role best. Maybe the removal of the phase shield points towards blizzard wanting to change the Infestor anyways in a few weeks. I'd hope so. Wasn't that before the nerf to snipe though? Yeah high ghost counts are good, but it's not THE only way for Terran to win, like mass infestor is for Zerg (or close to that). I agree on the potential for an Infestor change though. In general with the Swarm Host and Viper, i think Hive tech could be redesigned. Right now it's almost the only way for Z to win a game, by giving them more Lair tech options like they did i think there's the possibility of toning down Infestor/Broodlord and Hive tech in general a bit so it's not what Zerg rushes for to finish the game (outside of 2-3 base timings like 2-2muta ling in zvt or roach max in zvp), but rather something they can go into once they have an advantage from a Lair tech midgame and use that for the finishing blow. Hope that made sense. It's after the nerf. TO be honest, I only saw Demuslim do it once or twice (yet I hardly watch a lot of demuslim to begin with), but there was a GSL series with Byun, where he basically went ghost only (as ground units) multiple times in TvP lategame. I agree with Hive redesign. Hive should be the thing you get to get the 3-3(-3), the adrenalin glands, the support caster etc etc, and if you were forced into corruptors or if the opponent turtles really hard, you should be allowed to go broods as a siege weapon. It absolutly shouldn't be the "can't play macro without Hive army"-thing it is right now. The basic problem simply is, that zerg is lacking the real T2 ranged damage, that allows you to attack an opponent even (or especially) if he minimizes surface area. Well, zerg has it, it's the infestor. It's just not really possible to have continous swarm dynamics with an energy based unit, so it's deahball vs deathball...
With that logic, the Swarm Host opens up a lot of stuff, which is great. I'm concerned if you combine that with current infestor/broodlord though, you don't want to make one push deathballs even stronger than they currently are.
@fragile: there is. As i said, right now it's either hive tech or lair allins/timings. There should be an option to go Hive to finish of a game as a final push, but the race should be designed around a swarm of Lair tech units, not one final infestor/broodlord deathpush.
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COME ON you can't fire a missile from underground. Make the widow into some kind of pod that builds a widow mine, that launches.
That is, it works exactly as outlined above, but it fires a mine and not a missile.
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I'm playing HOTS almost since the beginning and I was pretty optimistic about first changes (mothership core being defensive so protoss can go more into late game, zerg changes so it could easier break siege lines late game and force a game without broodlords, warhound which made TvT awesome and finally not a 50 minute stale-mates with 20 tanks and vikings), but now I'm really looking at the changes and thinking: is this really what we want?
Every race got a siege + siegebreaker unit.
Terran: widow mine(siege) + warhound (now removed, supposed to be siegebreaker for TvT)
Zerg: swarm host(siege) + viper (siege breaker)
Protoss: Tempest, serves both of those roles.
There are two things I don't (personally) like about what's being changed from WOL to HOTS:
1) the games are becoming a siege / simcity stalemates that last 30+ minute each.
2) Blizzard is forcing certain builds/build orders, which limits creativity and promotes just practising over and over one build.
I seriously dont like where this is going. MSC +2 zaelot or 1 zaelot stalker rush forces zerg to build additional queen at the expansion (since its unscoutable) and forces terran to build 1-2 bunkers, almost removing the option to go 1 rax fast expand.
Widow mines are forcing both zerg and toss to get detection and long range units to counter them.
With each patch HOTS is going backwards imo. I liked it most at the beginning.
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On October 06 2012 23:31 Defrag wrote:
I'm playing HOTS almost since the beginning and I was pretty optimistic about first changes (mothership core being defensive so protoss can go more into late game, zerg changes so it could easier break siege lines late game and force a game without broodlords, warhound which made TvT awesome and finally not a 50 minute stale-mates with 20 tanks and vikings), but now I'm really looking at the changes and thinking: is this really what we want?
Every race got a siege + siegebreaker unit.
Terran: widow mine(siege) + warhound (now removed, supposed to be siegebreaker for TvT)
Zerg: swarm host(siege) + viper (siege breaker)
Protoss: Tempest, serves both of those roles.
There are two things I don't (personally) like about what's being changed from WOL to HOTS:
1) the games are becoming a siege / simcity stalemates that last 30+ minute each.
2) Blizzard is forcing certain builds/build orders, which limits creativity and promotes just practising over and over one build.
I seriously dont like where this is going. MSC +2 zaelot or 1 zaelot stalker rush forces zerg to build additional queen at the expansion (since its unscoutable) and forces terran to build 1-2 bunkers, almost removing the option to go 1 rax fast expand.
Widow mines are forcing both zerg and toss to get detection and long range units to counter them.
With each patch HOTS is going backwards imo. I liked it most at the beginning.
All of these siege units, I suppose, are used to break up the deathball syndrome, which is what almost everybody has poor feelings about. People said they wanted more strategy and less deathball and I propose this is what they are leaning toward.
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to be honest, i intended to pick up SC2 again in my semester vacations and play a lot. But since the beta came out, i do not forsee an enjoyable future of playing, thus play hardly at all. In other words - current plans for HotS really suck, especially the widow mine. No idea how this should fix mech, when it just makes bio play much stronger (and screws my beloved Mutalisks).
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From what i've seen on stream, the widow mine could use an engi bay requirement.
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On October 06 2012 23:29 CYFAWS wrote:
COME ON you can't fire a missile from underground. Make the widow into some kind of pod that builds a widow mine, that launches.
That is, it works exactly as outlined above, but it fires a mine and not a missile.
What? I'm pretty sure there are plenty of missiles that fire from underground IRL
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Widow Mines are still not cost effective enough/still bad. In Broodwar, they cost 75 minerals per vulture and 100 minerals and gas for the spider mine upgrade. It gave you 3 spider mines per vulture, and vultures were the fastest unit in BW with the Ion upgrade. 2 supply for the fastest unit in the game plus 3 spider mines. That's what I consider cost effective.
Widow mines are completely waste of space in your army.
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On October 06 2012 22:29 Aetherial wrote:LOL i'm just watching Dragon's stream, he's only building widow mines... they seem kinda broken. 
Let me quote Dragon on stream "mines suck".
Give it more than a few hours, mayhap.
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Zerg is perfect, fuck you all!
On a serious note, the new widow mine idea is cool as a concept but needs refinement. Not sure how to go about that but a few minor tweaks would be good.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
Widow mines are completely waste of space in your army.
Rofl? They counter now Swarm Hosts. Because:
- they're reacting to time-based free units
- they still have splash
- 2 widow mines can clear half of locusts or maybe all
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On October 06 2012 20:54 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 20:47 Mortician wrote:On October 06 2012 19:29 Evangelist wrote:
Void Siphon is useless. There are no numbers that are going to make that ability worth using UNLESS it is the oracle's base attack and benefits from upgrades like a Raider from Warcraft 3 ie. it attacks at 5 damage with a 1s cooldown but drains 3 minerals per second when attacking buildings. Putting it on energy just makes you trade energy for minerals and Phase Shield is always going to come out ahead.
Instead I'd like to see something unique to the Protoss.
Void Pylon (100 energy) - creates a static pylon with 100 shields at a location with 100 energy which allows the instant restoration of shields at a rate of 2 shields per 1 energy. Can autocast. Range 9.
I'd also like to see Phase Shield encase units with the same effect (100HP shield or so), rather than buildings and have a much smaller range - 1.5 or so and disable actions other than moving. That'd give it the same harassment ability without making micro suck against it like Fungal Win. Its mind blowing, why hasn't anybody thougt of that. Only thing I don't like is that it's called Void Pylon, why not call it like Void Battery or maybe something simpler, like Shield Battery On October 06 2012 20:35 pallad wrote:On October 06 2012 07:16 tianGO wrote:
lol so now terran has a mech swarm host?
Blizzard is runnign out of ideas. LOL.. if someone try some new ideas , make many changes to beta , he runs out of ideas ? Your thinking way is strange. It's not really a new idea or a new concept, it's the same units like the swarm host with the same purpose, only it can suicide Yeah and the swarm host is a burrowed broodlord, the broodlord is a guardian with extra unit spawn, the guardian is a flying catapult, the catapult is a splash archer, which is nothing but a ranged grunt. At the end of the day, everything is just a grunt... lol
haha - well played there.
On topic :
I like a lot the widow mine change. It's what the units needs, 'nuff said. Blizzard's on point there.
The oracle change almost saddens me too :the unit was awfully boring to watch for the spectator, too easy for the player and just annoying for the opponent - there's no skill in shift clicking around a 4.25 speed flyer that will just never die whatever you do, and this ability isn't going to change much. I find it comical that such an awful ability would go from an awful unit (corruptor) to an even more awful one (oracle).
For the mothership core.... Why no just go back to the alpha M core attached to the nexus ? It would siolve every problem with the unit.
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On October 07 2012 00:14 Existor wrote:Rofl? They counter now Swarm Hosts. Because: - they're reacting to time-based free units - they still have splash - 2 widow mines can clear half of locusts or maybe all
And how many mines am i supposed to build with a 40 seconds cooldown ? They aren't that good right now yeah the damage is nice but 40 seconds is way too much . Lower damage but Lower supply and lower rebuild would make the unit actually really good.
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From what I have seen so far in the HotS tournament, the changes make the game better  that is, of course, just a first impression
edit: this excludes the Oracle changes.
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On October 07 2012 00:14 Existor wrote:Rofl? They counter now Swarm Hosts. Because: - they're reacting to time-based free units - they still have splash - 2 widow mines can clear half of locusts or maybe all
It's the other way around. The mines blow the first locusts and the next wave go on and do their thing.
No "disable auto cast" is very bad. Good players should be allowed to show skill.
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EPT
