Vs Widow Mine 9Pylon 15Gate 16 Gas/Pylon Cyber Core after Gate 20ish- Zealot Warp Gate/Stalker after Core
Expand after Stalker Add 2 gates Make another Stalker 2 Sentries and a Zealot after WP Start Robo.
Robo/Obs finishes before a 111 can hit at 7:30, also should give you ample time to stop Widow mines even if rushed as I'm pretty sure a Zealot and a Stalker can kill a widow mine, likewise I'm pretty sure Widow mines unlike Roaches can't move while burrowed....just saying worried Protoss brethern, just sayin'.
On October 06 2012 19:40 SaintEaon wrote: Uhm well you see, they can kill observers easily, and stalkers are still extremely bad vs Terran The most cost effective way to deal with these things unfortunately is to open stargate and use Oracles for that soft scan they have. That's probably what Bliz wants us to do with them, Phoenix to chase off the medivacs, Oracle to deal with mines, then both to take up supply vs Terran. Yeah logic.
Observers aren't killed easily if they stay out of range.
And you're right, Revelation is great against Widow mines. I'm fine with the new design.
Observers aren't easily killed vs like one mine. Vs like I don't know 10 suddenly it becomes a chore to clean widow mines up and if you're not paying attention they do kill Observers easily.
Observer: 40HP 20 Shields Sight: 11
Stalker: Range 6
Widow Mine: Payload Damage: 160, Splash 40
In short, it will cost me probably 1 unit at the very least to discover one of the mines, you can get mines faster. Mines that directly hit an Observer will kill it INSTANTLY, Observers hit with splash damage take 2 hits. In short Observers are very easily killed by one mine, but no one just builds one mine because that'd be a waste of resources, if you're going mines you'll probably have 5 plus, in which case I now have to watch my positioning while dealing with an easily acquired non-static defensive unit that detracts from my over all unit composition.
There is no cost effective way to deal with widow mines, other than maybe an Oracle, but after its nerf that's debatable too. In fact the only justification for going Oracles vs Terran now is you wanted to slow their mineral production down while you teched to a mothership to make Zeal Archon for an Archon toilet late game.
then pay more attention? If HoTS makes it more mechanically difficult for players, then I'm for whatever it changes.
On October 06 2012 19:40 SaintEaon wrote: Uhm well you see, they can kill observers easily, and stalkers are still extremely bad vs Terran The most cost effective way to deal with these things unfortunately is to open stargate and use Oracles for that soft scan they have. That's probably what Bliz wants us to do with them, Phoenix to chase off the medivacs, Oracle to deal with mines, then both to take up supply vs Terran. Yeah logic.
Observers aren't killed easily if they stay out of range.
And you're right, Revelation is great against Widow mines. I'm fine with the new design.
Observers aren't easily killed vs like one mine. Vs like I don't know 10 suddenly it becomes a chore to clean widow mines up and if you're not paying attention they do kill Observers easily.
Observer: 40HP 20 Shields Sight: 11
Stalker: Range 6
Widow Mine: Payload Damage: 160, Splash 40
In short, it will cost me probably 1 unit at the very least to discover one of the mines, you can get mines faster. Mines that directly hit an Observer will kill it INSTANTLY, Observers hit with splash damage take 2 hits. In short Observers are very easily killed by one mine, but no one just builds one mine because that'd be a waste of resources, if you're going mines you'll probably have 5 plus, in which case I now have to watch my positioning while dealing with an easily acquired non-static defensive unit that detracts from my over all unit composition.
There is no cost effective way to deal with widow mines, other than maybe an Oracle, but after its nerf that's debatable too. In fact the only justification for going Oracles vs Terran now is you wanted to slow their mineral production down while you teched to a mothership to make Zeal Archon for an Archon toilet late game.
then pay more attention? If HoTS makes it more mechanically difficult for players, then I'm for whatever it changes.
There's a difference between difficulty and tedious. Its not difficult for me to deal with Widow Mines, however it is Tedious. Its difficult to deal with Fungal Growth, Its difficult to split Marines vs Banelings, Its difficult to land perfect storms or feedback ghosts.
Its not difficult to rush a unit that every 40 seconds fires an attack that can auto detect, from a burrowed unit that you can make 2 at a time from a factory.
You're looking at it saying "It makes the game harder for whoever I'm playing." but it doesn't actually make the game harder for the person behind it. The biggest criticism against SC2 from its players are that it's too easy to a-move and win. This in its present form doesn't solve that problem at all. The mines were under powered before, however this isn't a solution because while it makes the job of the player dealing with mines tedious it doesn't make gameplay more difficult or diverse, just annoying. Likewise it didn't make anything harder for Terran either who usually flies their factories off anyway unless they're going mech, which is still rare.
I would suggest either adding in a new factory unit, or removing the widow mine and making it a spell cast by the Raven, make it cost 0 supply and have a disruption burst that works like EMP, it damages shields if an enemy is shielded, costs only energy, but also when it explodes it does enough damage to do health damage vs Protoss so its actually cost effective. Also make the disruption burst do some kind of damage to zerg maybe it burns or something. That way people can't just rush widow mine, it makes another unit more useful, and it keeps it in the game or gives Terran another unit that isn't extremely UP.
This current build for the widow mine is just bad.
Don't really care for the Widow Mine changes cause this means that that the ability and cost of the unit are a lot easier to nerf, and I just don't care for Blizzard being able to do that for the easy option now. Already nerfed Battle Hellions to hell and back; and now I'm seeing the same thing gonna happen again.
Void Syphon, just don't see the community really wanting a spell anything like that the Phase Shield spell had way more use than that.giving the Orcale the Cloaking Field spell was what made people want to use the unit, just give the Oracle something OP'ed like that and balance from there?
On October 06 2012 19:29 Evangelist wrote: Void Siphon is useless. There are no numbers that are going to make that ability worth using UNLESS it is the oracle's base attack and benefits from upgrades like a Raider from Warcraft 3 ie. it attacks at 5 damage with a 1s cooldown but drains 3 minerals per second when attacking buildings. Putting it on energy just makes you trade energy for minerals and Phase Shield is always going to come out ahead.
Instead I'd like to see something unique to the Protoss.
Void Pylon (100 energy) - creates a static pylon with 100 shields at a location with 100 energy which allows the instant restoration of shields at a rate of 2 shields per 1 energy. Can autocast. Range 9.
I'd also like to see Phase Shield encase units with the same effect (100HP shield or so), rather than buildings and have a much smaller range - 1.5 or so and disable actions other than moving. That'd give it the same harassment ability without making micro suck against it like Fungal Win.
Its mind blowing, why hasn't anybody thougt of that. Only thing I don't like is that it's called Void Pylon, why not call it like Void Battery or maybe something simpler, like Shield Battery
On October 06 2012 19:29 Evangelist wrote: Void Siphon is useless. There are no numbers that are going to make that ability worth using UNLESS it is the oracle's base attack and benefits from upgrades like a Raider from Warcraft 3 ie. it attacks at 5 damage with a 1s cooldown but drains 3 minerals per second when attacking buildings. Putting it on energy just makes you trade energy for minerals and Phase Shield is always going to come out ahead.
Instead I'd like to see something unique to the Protoss.
Void Pylon (100 energy) - creates a static pylon with 100 shields at a location with 100 energy which allows the instant restoration of shields at a rate of 2 shields per 1 energy. Can autocast. Range 9.
I'd also like to see Phase Shield encase units with the same effect (100HP shield or so), rather than buildings and have a much smaller range - 1.5 or so and disable actions other than moving. That'd give it the same harassment ability without making micro suck against it like Fungal Win.
Its mind blowing, why hasn't anybody thougt of that. Only thing I don't like is that it's called Void Pylon, why not call it like Void Battery or maybe something simpler, like Shield Battery
On October 06 2012 07:16 tianGO wrote: lol so now terran has a mech swarm host? Blizzard is runnign out of ideas.
LOL.. if someone try some new ideas , make many changes to beta , he runs out of ideas ? Your thinking way is strange.
It's not really a new idea or a new concept, it's the same units like the swarm host with the same purpose, only it can suicide
Yeah and the swarm host is a burrowed broodlord, the broodlord is a guardian with extra unit spawn, the guardian is a flying catapult, the catapult is a splash archer, which is nothing but a ranged grunt. At the end of the day, everything is just a grunt... lol
I think this change makes Widow mines decent at securing a part of the map on their own. It is in a way the thing a lot of people have been asking for IMO.
On October 06 2012 19:09 SaintEaon wrote: Widow Mines should be changed to
Requires Armory Has more energy than life
So at least vs Protoss or Terran we have time to build detection vs them that they don't kill and they can keep their auto-fire ability and our response would just be feedback or EMP that way we can still do builds, and Terrans can still use Widow Mines to control space (because then you'd have to dedicate resources to kill the mines specifically), however Widow Mine Rushes don't just win because they can kill observers and burrow in 2 seconds. There actually has to be some tact and planning that goes into using them.
I think that mines have less than 80hp, so storming is fine (they don't move, and storm has 5< range)
Yeah lets use my storms on the Mines so that way the MMM can just kill me. Love the way that sounds.
you can use observer and stalkers if you want...
On October 06 2012 19:14 Snowbear wrote:
On October 06 2012 19:05 DrGreen wrote:
I'm seriously worried about widow mine drops... sure they need 2 seconds to burrow, but compared to storm drops I think it's just as good or better.
Is there a problem with the possibility that they are just as good as ht drops?
Possibly, not necessarily. But now that I think about it, a cannon or two should deal with that no problem.
Uhm well you see, they can kill observers easily, and stalkers are still extremely bad vs Terran The most cost effective way to deal with these things unfortunately is to open stargate and use Oracles for that soft scan they have. That's probably what Bliz wants us to do with them, Phoenix to chase off the medivacs, Oracle to deal with mines, then both to take up supply vs Terran. Yeah logic.
??? Obs have 11 sight range, widow mine range is only 5. Obs/stalker still most cost effective way to deal with them because stalker is range 6
Void siphon doesn't even belong in the starcraft universe. Starcraft is supposed to be about conquering expansions. Meaning you'll have to fight for expansions with your opponent. Fight for the last mineral to eventually kill him. If void siphon ever gets usefull, (it won't) it takes away from this struggle for minerals which is what sc is all about.
Ugh, again with the useless "slowly steals minerals from building" thing. How many times have we seen this? It was terrible before, it's still terrible now. The oracle is, once again, total balls.
I really liked phase shield. I'm incredibly sad that they got rid of it so quickly.
On October 06 2012 21:45 Belisarius wrote: Ugh, again with the useless "slowly steals minerals from building" thing. How many times have we seen this? It was terrible before, it's still terrible now. The oracle is, once again, total balls.
I really liked phase shield. I'm incredibly sad that they got rid of it so quickly.
The problem with it is that, let's face it, it was more or less only useful against Fungal and maaybe Blinding Cloud (not that people build Vipers for anything but Abduct for some reason).
That said, it's better than Void Syphon. I just do not understand how they could think that's a good idea. In fact it might just top the Warhound in terms of stupidity.
I like the direction the mine is going in, but I think that they need to either make the splash damage kill marines or allow toggling of auto cast. In its current state - with the exception of air - it will kill 1 unit max and that unit will 90% of the time be a tier 1 unit.
On October 06 2012 21:45 Belisarius wrote: Ugh, again with the useless "slowly steals minerals from building" thing. How many times have we seen this? It was terrible before, it's still terrible now. The oracle is, once again, total balls.
I really liked phase shield. I'm incredibly sad that they got rid of it so quickly.
The problem with it is that, let's face it, it was more or less only useful against Fungal and maaybe Blinding Cloud (not that people build Vipers for anything but Abduct for some reason).
That said, it's better than Void Syphon. I just do not understand how they could think that's a good idea. In fact it might just top the Warhound in terms of stupidity.
It stopped abduct and EMP as well, didn't it? I would have happily PS'd colo and HTs, respectively.
I just feel like it was a really useful tool that maybe wasn't being pushed just yet. It was a response to things that otherwise had no response, which added a layer of interaction that wasn't there before. I'm sure it needed tweaking, but that's not enough to throw it out.
I'd accept its removal if they finally, finally did something about how stupid fungal is, since that's the worst of the "no response available" spells... but I'm not sure I see that coming.
On October 06 2012 21:52 DeCoup wrote: I like the direction the mine is going in, but I think that they need to either make the splash damage kill marines or allow toggling of auto cast. In its current state - with the exception of air - it will kill 1 unit max and that unit will 90% of the time be a tier 1 unit.
I'm not sure if that's a bad thing, though. It will always at least slow down your opponent, and if you are watching the mini map like you should, it will give you a heads up to their army movements. Units that can come out of a naked factory shouldn't really be one-shotting stuff past tier 1, anyway IMO
EPT
