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HotS Balance Update #5 [10/5/12] - Page 23

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 HotS
848 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 21 22 23 24 25 43 Next All
Crawdad
Profile Joined September 2012
614 Posts
October 06 2012 10:25 GMT
#441
On October 06 2012 18:59 SaintEaon wrote:
Also random question, why does Fungal even hit air units? Corruptors are super good vs everything Protoss can make that flies, do we really need something else to make it that much worse.


Because then there would be a reason to spawn Hydras, and we can't have that.
KrazyTrumpet
Profile Joined April 2010
United States2520 Posts
October 06 2012 10:27 GMT
#442
On October 06 2012 19:19 Qikz wrote:
@Protoss proclaiming you need a robo to move out of your base, especially that picture of the widow mines on the ramp... Why not get a cannon like Terran get a turret at the front to stop DTs?


You still need mobile detection to move out or else your army just gets owned after they leave the cannon sight range
www.twitch.tv/krazy Best Stream Quality NA @KClarkSC2
DrGreen
Profile Joined July 2010
Poland708 Posts
October 06 2012 10:28 GMT
#443
On October 06 2012 19:19 Qikz wrote:
@Protoss proclaiming you need a robo to move out of your base, especially that picture of the widow mines on the ramp... Why not get a cannon like Terran get a turret at the front to stop DTs?


Well, if you get cannons you can't be aggressive, and you cannot be greedy either, it's not like we can make 2 more nexi in base and float them over. And if in HotS protoss won't be able to even move out of his base without robo, then I'm a sad panda.

Obviously we have no idea how will it work and what the balance will be.
Evangelist
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
1246 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-06 10:33:22
October 06 2012 10:29 GMT
#444
Void Siphon is useless. There are no numbers that are going to make that ability worth using UNLESS it is the oracle's base attack and benefits from upgrades like a Raider from Warcraft 3 ie. it attacks at 5 damage with a 1s cooldown but drains 3 minerals per second when attacking buildings. Putting it on energy just makes you trade energy for minerals and Phase Shield is always going to come out ahead.

Instead I'd like to see something unique to the Protoss.

Void Pylon (100 energy) - creates a static pylon with 100 shields at a location with 100 energy which allows the instant restoration of shields at a rate of 2 shields per 1 energy. Can autocast. Range 9.

I'd also like to see Phase Shield encase units with the same effect (100HP shield or so), rather than buildings and have a much smaller range - 1.5 or so and disable actions other than moving. That'd give it the same harassment ability without making micro suck against it like Fungal Win.
Hostileeeeee
Profile Joined November 2011
United Kingdom42 Posts
October 06 2012 10:31 GMT
#445
On October 06 2012 19:19 Qikz wrote:
@Protoss proclaiming you need a robo to move out of your base, especially that picture of the widow mines on the ramp... Why not get a cannon like Terran get a turret at the front to stop DTs?


Are you planning on building cannons all the way across the map? The problem isn't Widow Mines in your base but outside your base.
Suikakuju
Profile Joined July 2010
Germany238 Posts
October 06 2012 10:32 GMT
#446
thx juicy for this thread I am pretty curious about the widow changes.
Laugh and the world laughs with you. Weep and you weep alone.
Qikz
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United Kingdom12070 Posts
October 06 2012 10:37 GMT
#447
On October 06 2012 19:31 Hostileeeeee wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 06 2012 19:19 Qikz wrote:
@Protoss proclaiming you need a robo to move out of your base, especially that picture of the widow mines on the ramp... Why not get a cannon like Terran get a turret at the front to stop DTs?


Are you planning on building cannons all the way across the map? The problem isn't Widow Mines in your base but outside your base.


Does the oracle still have pre-ordain or whatever it was called? If I remember rightly couldn't that work as a mobile detector in the same vein as the observer?
FanTaSy's #1 Fan | STPL Caster/Organiser | SKT BEST KT | https://twitch.tv/stpl
SaintEaon
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
United States38 Posts
October 06 2012 10:40 GMT
#448
On October 06 2012 19:19 DrGreen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 06 2012 19:14 SaintEaon wrote:
On October 06 2012 19:10 DrGreen wrote:
On October 06 2012 19:09 SaintEaon wrote:
Widow Mines should be changed to

Requires Armory
Has more energy than life

So at least vs Protoss or Terran we have time to build detection vs them that they don't kill and they can keep their auto-fire ability and our response would just be feedback or EMP that way we can still do builds, and Terrans can still use Widow Mines to control space (because then you'd have to dedicate resources to kill the mines specifically), however Widow Mine Rushes don't just win because they can kill observers and burrow in 2 seconds. There actually has to be some tact and planning that goes into using them.


I think that mines have less than 80hp, so storming is fine (they don't move, and storm has 5< range)



Yeah lets use my storms on the Mines so that way the MMM can just kill me. Love the way that sounds.


you can use observer and stalkers if you want...

Show nested quote +
On October 06 2012 19:14 Snowbear wrote:
On October 06 2012 19:05 DrGreen wrote:

I'm seriously worried about widow mine drops... sure they need 2 seconds to burrow, but compared to storm drops I think it's just as good or better.


Is there a problem with the possibility that they are just as good as ht drops?


Possibly, not necessarily. But now that I think about it, a cannon or two should deal with that no problem.


Uhm well you see, they can kill observers easily, and stalkers are still extremely bad vs Terran
The most cost effective way to deal with these things unfortunately is to open stargate and use Oracles for that soft scan they have. That's probably what Bliz wants us to do with them, Phoenix to chase off the medivacs, Oracle to deal with mines, then both to take up supply vs Terran. Yeah logic.
Humanity is overrated.
TheKefka
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Croatia11752 Posts
October 06 2012 10:42 GMT
#449
Terran design team:
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

Zerg design team:
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

Protoss design team:
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
Cackle™
SaintEaon
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
United States38 Posts
October 06 2012 10:46 GMT
#450
I'm just saying before the Oracle changes they were at least useful. Vs Terran you could prevent those stupid all-ins where they pull ALL of their SCVs and just stream marines because Mules can't attack so Entomb was very effective.

Vs Zerg when late game came around you could combat infestors, fungals still did damage but they didn't prevent your army from being able to move or cast spells, which is my biggest complaint with fungal, its super hard to feed back your 15 infestors with my 5 HTs when F-click-click-click-click across my entire army hits all my units and I can't even feedback anymore, meanwhile the other supply that's all Broodlords picks apart anything I made.

New Oracle is 100% useless unless its against a Terran All In where they pull all of their SCVs. Thanks Bliz, I needed that!
Humanity is overrated.
Crawdad
Profile Joined September 2012
614 Posts
October 06 2012 10:47 GMT
#451
On October 06 2012 19:40 SaintEaon wrote:
Uhm well you see, they can kill observers easily, and stalkers are still extremely bad vs Terran
The most cost effective way to deal with these things unfortunately is to open stargate and use Oracles for that soft scan they have. That's probably what Bliz wants us to do with them, Phoenix to chase off the medivacs, Oracle to deal with mines, then both to take up supply vs Terran. Yeah logic.


Observers aren't killed easily if they stay out of range.

And you're right, Revelation is great against Widow mines. I'm fine with the new design.
v3chr0
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States856 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-06 10:51:10
October 06 2012 10:48 GMT
#452
I am kind of perplexed at the removal of phase shield for void siphon. The reasoning is not solid enough, its gonna take more time to see more use, and I definitely think its got more 'fun' and strategic value than void siphon which is 'new' but it already has the mineral block. Think outside the box at least lol.

Edit: Also, weren't they trying to get the Oracle to be used as part of the core army? How the hell does Void Siphon do that? :X

A little odd is all, everything else was alright though.
"He catches him with his pants down, backs him off into a corner, and then it's over." - Khaldor
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
October 06 2012 10:52 GMT
#453
On October 06 2012 19:25 Crawdad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 06 2012 18:59 SaintEaon wrote:
Also random question, why does Fungal even hit air units? Corruptors are super good vs everything Protoss can make that flies, do we really need something else to make it that much worse.


Because then there would be a reason to spawn Hydras, and we can't have that.


Why would you build hydras? It takes 1-2mins until your opponent realizes that you gave up after you start going for them, just write gg like everybody else!
SaintEaon
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
United States38 Posts
October 06 2012 10:57 GMT
#454
On October 06 2012 19:47 Crawdad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 06 2012 19:40 SaintEaon wrote:
Uhm well you see, they can kill observers easily, and stalkers are still extremely bad vs Terran
The most cost effective way to deal with these things unfortunately is to open stargate and use Oracles for that soft scan they have. That's probably what Bliz wants us to do with them, Phoenix to chase off the medivacs, Oracle to deal with mines, then both to take up supply vs Terran. Yeah logic.


Observers aren't killed easily if they stay out of range.

And you're right, Revelation is great against Widow mines. I'm fine with the new design.


Observers aren't easily killed vs like one mine. Vs like I don't know 10 suddenly it becomes a chore to clean widow mines up and if you're not paying attention they do kill Observers easily.

Observer: 40HP 20 Shields
Sight: 11

Stalker: Range 6

Widow Mine: Payload Damage: 160, Splash 40

In short, it will cost me probably 1 unit at the very least to discover one of the mines, you can get mines faster. Mines that directly hit an Observer will kill it INSTANTLY, Observers hit with splash damage take 2 hits. In short Observers are very easily killed by one mine, but no one just builds one mine because that'd be a waste of resources, if you're going mines you'll probably have 5 plus, in which case I now have to watch my positioning while dealing with an easily acquired non-static defensive unit that detracts from my over all unit composition.

There is no cost effective way to deal with widow mines, other than maybe an Oracle, but after its nerf that's debatable too. In fact the only justification for going Oracles vs Terran now is you wanted to slow their mineral production down while you teched to a mothership to make Zeal Archon for an Archon toilet late game.
Humanity is overrated.
Salient
Profile Joined August 2011
United States876 Posts
October 06 2012 10:59 GMT
#455
What if the widow mine kept its new stats, but couldn't be loaded into a medivac?
TeeTS
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany2762 Posts
October 06 2012 11:02 GMT
#456
make that mines shoot ground only and they might be fine... that they kill detection is stupid, yes!
SaintEaon
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
United States38 Posts
October 06 2012 11:02 GMT
#457
On October 06 2012 19:59 Salient wrote:
What if the widow mine kept its new stats, but couldn't be loaded into a medivac?


Then people would question why mines can't be in a Medivac but a Thor can. I know I'm arguing against the mines a lot, but I actually don't care that much about them, I'm more pissed we lost Phase Shield.
Humanity is overrated.
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9448 Posts
October 06 2012 11:03 GMT
#458
On October 06 2012 19:29 Evangelist wrote:
Void Siphon is useless. There are no numbers that are going to make that ability worth using UNLESS it is the oracle's base attack and benefits from upgrades like a Raider from Warcraft 3 ie. it attacks at 5 damage with a 1s cooldown but drains 3 minerals per second when attacking buildings. Putting it on energy just makes you trade energy for minerals and Phase Shield is always going to come out ahead.

Instead I'd like to see something unique to the Protoss.

Void Pylon (100 energy) - creates a static pylon with 100 shields at a location with 100 energy which allows the instant restoration of shields at a rate of 2 shields per 1 energy. Can autocast. Range 9.

I'd also like to see Phase Shield encase units with the same effect (100HP shield or so), rather than buildings and have a much smaller range - 1.5 or so and disable actions other than moving. That'd give it the same harassment ability without making micro suck against it like Fungal Win.


most boring ability ever i think.
Salient
Profile Joined August 2011
United States876 Posts
October 06 2012 11:06 GMT
#459
On October 06 2012 20:02 SaintEaon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 06 2012 19:59 Salient wrote:
What if the widow mine kept its new stats, but couldn't be loaded into a medivac?


Then people would question why mines can't be in a Medivac but a Thor can. I know I'm arguing against the mines a lot, but I actually don't care that much about them, I'm more pissed we lost Phase Shield.


The G-forces make them unstable :p
Evangelist
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
1246 Posts
October 06 2012 11:10 GMT
#460
On October 06 2012 19:57 SaintEaon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 06 2012 19:47 Crawdad wrote:
On October 06 2012 19:40 SaintEaon wrote:
Uhm well you see, they can kill observers easily, and stalkers are still extremely bad vs Terran
The most cost effective way to deal with these things unfortunately is to open stargate and use Oracles for that soft scan they have. That's probably what Bliz wants us to do with them, Phoenix to chase off the medivacs, Oracle to deal with mines, then both to take up supply vs Terran. Yeah logic.


Observers aren't killed easily if they stay out of range.

And you're right, Revelation is great against Widow mines. I'm fine with the new design.


Observers aren't easily killed vs like one mine. Vs like I don't know 10 suddenly it becomes a chore to clean widow mines up and if you're not paying attention they do kill Observers easily.

Observer: 40HP 20 Shields
Sight: 11

Stalker: Range 6

Widow Mine: Payload Damage: 160, Splash 40

In short, it will cost me probably 1 unit at the very least to discover one of the mines, you can get mines faster. Mines that directly hit an Observer will kill it INSTANTLY, Observers hit with splash damage take 2 hits. In short Observers are very easily killed by one mine, but no one just builds one mine because that'd be a waste of resources, if you're going mines you'll probably have 5 plus, in which case I now have to watch my positioning while dealing with an easily acquired non-static defensive unit that detracts from my over all unit composition.

There is no cost effective way to deal with widow mines, other than maybe an Oracle, but after its nerf that's debatable too. In fact the only justification for going Oracles vs Terran now is you wanted to slow their mineral production down while you teched to a mothership to make Zeal Archon for an Archon toilet late game.


Good. That's the point of a mine. They aren't supposed to be cost efficient to deal with when properly positioned. That makes up for the fact that a widow mine does a grand total of 2 DPS per supply single target and 0.5 DPS per supply AoE. Why would we want to make it easy for you to clear minefields? They might vapourise an A move deathball in 3s, but that's your issue, not that of the mines.
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