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On October 06 2012 15:44 Crawdad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 15:40 mcmartini wrote:and again....just reintroduce spidermine  I mean seriously it's getting a little silly now :/ Spider mines would be a hundred times sillier than this, IMO. The only silly thing is that mines attack other burrowed mines.
Spider mines can not attack indefinitely, require am upgrade, are used up and can create interesting strats, zealot charge + spidermine? Yes please. They can also be destroyed before reaching their target. (Not sure about this with widow mines TBH).
Agree with mines attacking other mines.
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On October 06 2012 15:46 Existor wrote:Then make them require Armory.
If you do that, they almost completely lose their window of usefulness. Something like a mine, be it the current widow mine or a spider mine, really only sees usefulness in early to mid game. It starts losing it's effectiveness dramatically a bit into mid game.
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On October 06 2012 15:14 DMZ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 08:06 Qikz wrote:On October 06 2012 08:01 DMZ wrote:
Widow mine seems overpowered- just need a factory for detection? Especially against banshee or DTs. It'll shut down pretty much any cloaked harass and a lot of zergling backstabs with the 40 dmg splash.. Oracle seems kind of odd. the siphon seems kind of stupid since I don't think it'll do much of an impact due to the oracle's fragility.. although in a PvP it could be useful as you could siphon on a forward pylon and punish them that way. And the mothership core nerf stops it harassing zerg bases early, since a queen can out dps it now. (I think). Course, I play zerg so this is all from an outside viewpoint.. I have no problem with this. Works just like the spidermine (minus it hitting air, I don't agree with that). If you want to use DTs, get a halucination to go eat the widowmine then run your dts in, it's not difficult. Also the zergling backstab thing is what the mine is designed to do. Without it, mech is awful at dealing with any kind of base race as you just can't get back before you lose all your bases due to the god awful map design. If tanks were stronger and you could actually defend areas with small amounts of tanks, it wouldn't be an issue. How does zerg ever beat mech then? I mech becomes almost unkillable when played halfway decently. Zergling backstabs are often how a zerg has a chance to stay in the game when terran begins the doom push.
it has a range of 7. Marines have range 5 (6 in bunker). If you positon yourself well and cast at buildings near cliffs/highground they can't touch you.
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On October 06 2012 15:47 mcmartini wrote:
Spider mines can not attack indefinitely, require am upgrade, are used up and can create interesting strats, zealot charge + spidermine? Yes please. They can also be destroyed before reaching their target. (Not sure about this with widow mines TBH).
Why would they just copy something verbatim from BW to replace something that is entirely different? The new Widow mine is great. It is powerful, it has a clear weakness that can be exploited (one that is very reminiscent to the weakness of BW tanks), and it must be repositioned often to assure maximum efficiency. Blizzard shouldn't throw it away.
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They literally have no idea on what the fuck to do anymore... T.T
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LOL I think Blizzard has really lost the plot for the Oracle and MSCore. People were complaining Oracle was too gimmicky and had no combat usage, so what do they do? Give it an even more gimmicky and useless harass option. For the cost of 50 energy you need over 15 seconds to steal enough minerals for ONE PROBE.
And making the MSCore flimsier than the old warp prisms, it will be a miracle if anybody manages to keep it alive long enough vs corruptor/viking to even get a recall in.
What was the problem with having the core attach to a nexus anyway.
Can't really judge the widow mine changes until I see them but its nice they are trying new things with it.
The thought they were heading in the right direction with HOTS but changes to Oracle show they really don't know what they are doing... Why do they need to find new ways to 'harass'? Don't they realise that traditional forms of harass are exciting because of the potential to cause real damage with good control. How is blocking up minerals or slowly stealing 3 minerals/hp a second exciting to anyone? Where is the control needed to do either of these things?
At least I can find solace in the fact that they will change the Oracle once they realise nobody will ever, ever use the Void siphon ability.
Edit: Please just scrap the Oracle, just forget about the notion of a new unit with new gimmicky useless forms of harass and start over. Maybe something from the gateway that requires a TC that is cost efficient enough to use to harass with outside the deathball, and that isn't completely useless should your enemy just decide to attack you.
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oh no, i liked the non autocast so much. Stupid change, now people won't actually fear them but do exactly the same as they do with siege tanks and throw in sacrifices. Personally I hope they will add a bug like the Lurker had and allow them to hold position, so they won't reveal themself. That way they will probably hit more then an halluzination in a fight.
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Ok so mothership core either needs to health increased or you need to build more than 1, I was just playing a PvZ on beta did a mothership core 2 zealot 2 stalker push a 4 min in game 3 queens instantly sniped the mothership core and I just turned around and ran home. with a bunch of ling kills and that was about it. doesn't actually seem worth it to get aggressive in PvZ with it. Marines will probably kill them just as fast,
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Widow mine ability is good, although I'd prefer if it could load up a few missiles at once (maybe 2-3) with a much longer reload time after that. So the 4th missile would come out MUCH slower, but the first three would come out fairly quickly, making a minefield powerful for delay and ground-control, but less powerful in terms of sustained DPS.
It would make it possible to effectively "clear" a minefield and safely move your army through (you would have a minute or so to move through after your hallucinations/zerglings/infested terrans or whatever have cleared the minefield.
Overall though, I quite like the Widow Mine changes.
Unfortunately, the Oracle changes on the other hand...The Oracle recently received Phase Shield, probably one of the best abilities (in terms of design, not power) that Blizzard has ever come up with. It mitigated fungal growth (a terrible ability that is nevertheless necessary for balance reasons), enabling Protoss players with enough skill to combat infestor-broodlord, whilst being mostly useless for those players without the sense of timing and mechanical abilities to manage the spell. It also made the Oracle not a complete waste of money, which also made opening stargate viable in a matchup where, combined with phase shield, a toss stargate army might be able to truly compete with a zerg one in the late-game.
Now the Oracle is a decent enough harass unit that can NEVER pay for itself if zerg/terran scouts the stargate and builds a handful of static defence (two missile turrets or spore crawlers per base prevent all oracle harass on the mineral lines, meanwhile Protoss is out 300 gas (which is worse than losing a nexus) for absolutely nothing.
The oracle was an awesome unit after the last patch, now it is shit. It NEEDS some utility in battles for it to worthwhile, or it needs to be a ridiculously overpowered harass unit. Or it needs to cost only minerals. Only one of those things is a good idea, IMO.
How bliz could make such a dumb move and such a smart one (the Widow mine change is quite clever) in one patch is quite astounding.
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Canada13410 Posts
On October 06 2012 16:26 althaz wrote:
Widow mine ability is good, although I'd prefer if it could load up a few missiles at once (maybe 2-3) with a much longer reload time after that. So the 4th missile would come out MUCH slower, but the first three would come out fairly quickly, making a minefield powerful for delay and ground-control, but less powerful in terms of sustained DPS.
It would make it possible to effectively "clear" a minefield and safely move your army through (you would have a minute or so to move through after your hallucinations/zerglings/infested terrans or whatever have cleared the minefield.
Overall though, I quite like the Widow Mine changes.
Unfortunately, the Oracle changes on the other hand...The Oracle recently received Phase Shield, probably one of the best abilities (in terms of design, not power) that Blizzard has ever come up with. It mitigated fungal growth (a terrible ability that is nevertheless necessary for balance reasons), enabling Protoss players with enough skill to combat infestor-broodlord, whilst being mostly useless for those players without the sense of timing and mechanical abilities to manage the spell. It also made the Oracle not a complete waste of money, which also made opening stargate viable in a matchup where, combined with phase shield, a toss stargate army might be able to truly compete with a zerg one in the late-game.
Now the Oracle is a decent enough harass unit that can NEVER pay for itself if zerg/terran scouts the stargate and builds a handful of static defence (two missile turrets or spore crawlers per base prevent all oracle harass on the mineral lines, meanwhile Protoss is out 300 gas (which is worse than losing a nexus) for absolutely nothing.
The oracle was an awesome unit after the last patch, now it is shit. It NEEDS some utility in battles for it to worthwhile, or it needs to be a ridiculously overpowered harass unit. Or it needs to cost only minerals. Only one of those things is a good idea, IMO.
How bliz could make such a dumb move and such a smart one (the Widow mine change is quite clever) in one patch is quite astounding.
I wouldn't be surprised that they are planning on retuning fungal growth. As a result, there is no need for phase shield vs fungal. Maybe. I hope. Because it was a super cool spell on paper. Wish I had beta to mess about with it.
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Yea Phase shield was too rpg like, you dont buff your units in starcraft.
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Widow mines are stupid strong with the balance update. You can do standard blue flame hellion harass to zerg and then add them for little cost. They 1 shot queens so you can bust the ramp and clean up the lings with ease. The burrow time is extremely quick. You can barely get a queen out of attack radius before they arm and target it down even if you react instantly. You don't need as much gas as normal mech because you don't need thors to deal with muta harass or siege tanks for roach busts.
The burrow, shoot, and leave sequence is incredible. You walk them in, activate, and micro away the ones that have shot already. It is difficult for protoss to deal with because the mines detect cloak, and burrowing them en masse makes the hard to escape from. I haven't tested to see if an observer can get to safe range before they arm, but my protoss opponents haven't been able to manage it. The mines move fast enough and are hardy enough to walk right into a stalker or voidray pack and blow them all up.
This is a fun mechanic, but definitely needs to be tuned before it will be balanced enough for release. I think increasing the burrow time, reducing the move speed, and reducing the health would at least give the opponent a chance to react in response to a mine rush. The mines feel like too much guaranteed damage,for their cost, and the supply cap hit isn't a factor during the early midgame timing well before deathball.
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What a retarded patch, the Oracle still has no clear, effective goal nor is it viable as a transitional air unit to Cariers vs Terrans and the Widow Mine was, with some additional balance tweaking, the best unit addition after the Viper and Swarmhost to the game. Now we've gone back to an early game, cloaked unit that can be burrowed in opposing players mineral lines and that is an answer to cloaked units while being even more over powered vs. Mutalisks.
an exploit.
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On October 06 2012 16:32 D4V3Z02 wrote:
Yea Phase shield was too rpg like, you dont buff your units in starcraft.
Not sure if you are serious but things like Stimpack or Defensive Matrix from BW are buffs too.
I'm sure the old oracle would have been more useful for the protoss. Mothership Core change seems good. Widow mine will need some testing for sure.
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Hmm...the widow mine splash damage was reduced to 40, meaning you can't even kill groups of marines with it anymore...sorta dumb. You'd expect a mine to be able to kill a group of bio units that walk over it.
Now the mine just pops up, kills 1 marine, and then your opponent is like, "LOL I C U! and scans kills the mine -_-
The mine is very cost efficient now, sadly though at 2 supply it's still the same as last patch to me - very supply inefficient when the game goes over 10-12 minutes (which is most games).
All of the feedback i gave blizzard, and other Terrans as well, was that the mine is supply inefficient. I thought they honestly should have just tested it at 1 supply and voila, it may have been great at 1 supply.
Seems like blizzard instead of reducing the supply to at least 1, has decided they're going to keep the mine just as supply inefficient as it was before, and try to basically make it more efficient by giving it cost efficiency and more of a "stays on the field" type of unit.
Which is fine, but 40 seconds reload time is too long right now...way too long. I hope they started the value at 40 seconds just as a control variable and adjust it lower from there.
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so if i burrow the mines throw the missiles, then unborrow, i can by-pass the 40 sec crap reloaded?
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On October 06 2012 16:52 Garmer wrote:
so if i burrow the mines throw the missiles, then unborrow, i can by-pass the 40 sec crap reloaded?
Nope, it'll take 40 seconds to come off cool-down. Even worse, they nerfed the ability to manually control your mines. Sow now if your opponent sends in a worker or cheap unit your mine will detonate and you have to wait 40 seconds for it to be able to attack again.
They should also add back in the ability to manually target fire your mines. Puts more control in the hands of the player to micro a mech unit, just like bio units can be micro'd, precision control of mines should be possible.
So if you ask blizzard/recommend anything those are the two things I would say:
(1)Reduce the reload time of the mine from 40 seconds to whatever
(2)Allow the Terran to take the mine off of auto-cast which increases the skill cap and control needed for it.
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The new oracle ability seems lame. Maybe if they add a fleet beacon upgrade to let it disable the building it's draining, then it might be something cool.
New mines seem cool, but scary, I like that they will be more important to the game.
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On October 06 2012 16:56 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 16:52 Garmer wrote:
so if i burrow the mines throw the missiles, then unborrow, i can by-pass the 40 sec crap reloaded? Nope, it'll take 40 seconds to come off cool-down. Even worse, they nerfed the ability to manually control your mines. Sow now if your opponent sends in a worker or cheap unit your mine will detonate and you have to wait 40 seconds for it to be able to attack again. They should also add back in the ability to manually target fire your mines. Puts more control in the hands of the player to micro a mech unit, just like bio units can be micro'd, precision control of mines should be possible. So if you ask blizzard/recommend anything those are the two things I would say: (1)Reduce the reload time of the mine from 40 seconds to whatever (2)Allow the Terran to take the mine off of auto-cast which increases the skill cap and control needed for it.
this is ridiculous and stupid, very stupid
User was warned for this post
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so if i burrow the mines throw the missiles, then unborrow, i can by-pass the 40 sec crap reloaded?
The 40 second timer starts as soon as the missile throws, and you can't bypass it by burrowing and unburrowing. The timer continues to count down while unburrowed however, so you can shoot and re-position while on cd.
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EPT
