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On September 19 2012 17:16 Geos13 wrote:
I find it interesting that you were trying to practice specific builds when you thought you were playing random non-mmr opponents. What was the point? If in the first game your build crushes a bronze level player and in the second game the build is crushed by a much better player then you, what have you learned? You might as well just practice the timings against an ai.
I think what is really being discussed is the purpose of unranked match finding. Blizzard seems to believe it is to protect players from having an emotional connection to their losses while still providing a fair challenge but some in the community feel it should be a random battle primarily for lols. I don't do this myself but can't you find random people to 1v1 on custom game maps?
It's always been assumed that who you get matched with in unranked play is based on your MMR. What was NOT expected is that the unranked play CHANGES your MMR. If it really does change your MMR (waiting for our noble waffle to get back to us on that one), then it's not really unranked, is it? It's just ranked but without points.
Oh, and the PURPOSE of unranked matches is really whatever you'd like it to be. Plexa was trying to use it so that he'd be able to focus on a specific race matchup so that he could better structure his practice time. I could see myself doing the same, along with practicing on a certain map (let's say I really need to perfect my Blink Obs play on Antiga) or even just for if I feel a little mentally rattled and want to play a few games without hurting my ladder points. Hell, I bet most people will use unranked for testing out new build orders and warming up before a serious ladder session. As you see, there's nothing about emotional losses there. It's about getting new tools to strengthen your skills at Starcraft, because you're able to VERY easily find someone at your skill level and play a quick match with nothing but time at stake. And that's something amazingly useful, and if implemented will be the first real advance over the Warcraft III Battlenet.
So forgive me if I don't take your objections to heart. This feature has the potential to be so good that I'm simply not comfortable leaving it as anything less.
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It must be temporary, the most common sense way to do unranked matches is to simply freeze your ranked MMR and use it on an unranked ladder so you can indefinitely practice with other similarly skilled (their frozen MMR being similar to yours) players. As the poster above mentioned, a changing unranked MMR would defeat the purpose of it being 'unranked' (I don't think anyone cares solely whether you can see your league/rank or not, its dropping down in MMR that people are worried about).
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On September 20 2012 00:09 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 17:16 Geos13 wrote:
I find it interesting that you were trying to practice specific builds when you thought you were playing random non-mmr opponents. What was the point? If in the first game your build crushes a bronze level player and in the second game the build is crushed by a much better player then you, what have you learned? You might as well just practice the timings against an ai.
I think what is really being discussed is the purpose of unranked match finding. Blizzard seems to believe it is to protect players from having an emotional connection to their losses while still providing a fair challenge but some in the community feel it should be a random battle primarily for lols. I don't do this myself but can't you find random people to 1v1 on custom game maps? It's always been assumed that who you get matched with in unranked play is based on your MMR. What was NOT expected is that the unranked play CHANGES your MMR. If it really does change your MMR (waiting for our noble waffle to get back to us on that one), then it's not really unranked, is it? It's just ranked but without points. Oh, and the PURPOSE of unranked matches is really whatever you'd like it to be. Plexa was trying to use it so that he'd be able to focus on a specific race matchup so that he could better structure his practice time. I could see myself doing the same, along with practicing on a certain map (let's say I really need to perfect my Blink Obs play on Antiga) or even just for if I feel a little mentally rattled and want to play a few games without hurting my ladder points. Hell, I bet most people will use unranked for testing out new build orders and warming up before a serious ladder session. As you see, there's nothing about emotional losses there. It's about getting new tools to strengthen your skills at Starcraft, because you're able to VERY easily find someone at your skill level and play a quick match with nothing but time at stake. And that's something amazingly useful, and if implemented will be the first real advance over the Warcraft III Battlenet. So forgive me if I don't take your objections to heart. This feature has the potential to be so good that I'm simply not comfortable leaving it as anything less.
Joining unranked queue only to leave every time you don't get the race(s)/map(s) you want kind of wastes the time of every one else. If you're trying to do race or map specific builds wouldn't you be much better off just trying to find practice partners (even random custom games for map choices)?
I really don't see any use to unranked matches that couldn't be fixed by making the custom game selection better. Make it similar to the dungeon finder was in WoW - select/veto maps you do/don't want, race(s) you want, race(s) you want to play against and have some sort of self and opponent level selection and queue. Sure players could lie about their skill level but it probably would be better than the game basing your unranked MMR on your ladder when you're off racing, playing drunk or letting a friend play.
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On September 19 2012 14:24 Plexa wrote:
The introduction of unranked matchmaking is surely a relief to a number of people, and undoubtedly is a positive for HotS. What people might not be aware of is that the unranked matchmaking normally pairs you with a person who is playing ranked ladder. That means your opponent will still win/lose points from the game, but you won't! I also suspect that laddering unranked still changes your MMR, more on that in a bit.
A non issue? Perhaps. But say I want to practice PvT and not PvZ/PvP, so I instantly leave any non-Terran game. My opponents will get points for doing nothing. I actually did this last night, and after losing a lot of games (tons of protoss on the ladder lately) I found that my opponents were noticeably easier. This makes me suspect that my MMR changed as well - if anyone has any resources to calculate that (for HotS) I'd happily test this theory.
Imo, this isn't a major issue facing HotS, at least not big enough to warrant removing it. However, there is a potential for abuse at the highest (and lowest) ends of the ladder and the possibility that some people will play unranked with the intention of leaving the game at the end, regardless of how the game plays out.
Isn't it possible that they are mixing matchmaking types just to keep wait times reasonable since the beta player count is so low?
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Easy solution: GIve people the option to erase all ranks/points/etc from view. Throw in lots of aesthetic achievements not related to victory so people feel like they've accomplished something.
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I'm pretty sure i read at some point that you have an MMR for Ranked and a separete MMR for Unranked matches.
I'm not in the beta so i can't test it. But you could drop a large amount of Unranked games, then try a couple of ranked games and see if there is a difference 
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Ah and I was worried for a moment about the unranked stuff. If they would divide it, it would reduce the player base. If they wouldn't punish people for leaving, then unranked games would be simply a leave fest. Imagine 50% of the people want to only play one matchup on unranked games. And then add those people who have their "I want to annoy people" day and proceed to lower their mmr and own through lower unranked region staying there because their mmr is unaffected.
I think it will be really hard to find a good system that will prevent any form of abuse without splitting the player base. But Imo Blizzard should atleast share how it does work, so they get an easier feedback on this. Though this topic is probably low priority and they might address it post beta.
And what the person above me said, I remember that too. That it starts with your Ladder MMR and then uses its own. But this is beta, who knows if its implented already.
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Just allowing to pick your opponent's race (or even map) in unranked would solve a lot of problems, and would allow great practice games.
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On September 20 2012 00:29 y0su wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 00:09 Acritter wrote:On September 19 2012 17:16 Geos13 wrote:
I find it interesting that you were trying to practice specific builds when you thought you were playing random non-mmr opponents. What was the point? If in the first game your build crushes a bronze level player and in the second game the build is crushed by a much better player then you, what have you learned? You might as well just practice the timings against an ai.
I think what is really being discussed is the purpose of unranked match finding. Blizzard seems to believe it is to protect players from having an emotional connection to their losses while still providing a fair challenge but some in the community feel it should be a random battle primarily for lols. I don't do this myself but can't you find random people to 1v1 on custom game maps? It's always been assumed that who you get matched with in unranked play is based on your MMR. What was NOT expected is that the unranked play CHANGES your MMR. If it really does change your MMR (waiting for our noble waffle to get back to us on that one), then it's not really unranked, is it? It's just ranked but without points. Oh, and the PURPOSE of unranked matches is really whatever you'd like it to be. Plexa was trying to use it so that he'd be able to focus on a specific race matchup so that he could better structure his practice time. I could see myself doing the same, along with practicing on a certain map (let's say I really need to perfect my Blink Obs play on Antiga) or even just for if I feel a little mentally rattled and want to play a few games without hurting my ladder points. Hell, I bet most people will use unranked for testing out new build orders and warming up before a serious ladder session. As you see, there's nothing about emotional losses there. It's about getting new tools to strengthen your skills at Starcraft, because you're able to VERY easily find someone at your skill level and play a quick match with nothing but time at stake. And that's something amazingly useful, and if implemented will be the first real advance over the Warcraft III Battlenet. So forgive me if I don't take your objections to heart. This feature has the potential to be so good that I'm simply not comfortable leaving it as anything less. Joining unranked queue only to leave every time you don't get the race(s)/map(s) you want kind of wastes the time of every one else. If you're trying to do race or map specific builds wouldn't you be much better off just trying to find practice partners (even random custom games for map choices)? I really don't see any use to unranked matches that couldn't be fixed by making the custom game selection better. Make it similar to the dungeon finder was in WoW - select/veto maps you do/don't want, race(s) you want, race(s) you want to play against and have some sort of self and opponent level selection and queue. Sure players could lie about their skill level but it probably would be better than the game basing your unranked MMR on your ladder when you're off racing, playing drunk or letting a friend play.
First off: read my first post in the thread. I'm of the opinion that you should be able to select race matchups and even maps when you're playing unranked. It's not like it's possible to "game the system", because there IS no system.
Regarding practice partners, the issue with them is twofold: they're predictable and you're predictable. If you're trying to learn a new build order, you could very well have your execution gimped because they don't figure out the way to beat it. If you're trying to learn an unorthodox new build order, they're likely going to take steps to blind counter it, sometimes without consciously thinking about it (example: scouting gas in PvT and preparing to defend a Hellion drop when it could be a multitude of other builds). Going up against random opponents means you get to see a wider range of reactions to your build.
The problem with just doing it through customs is that what you just described is no different than setting up a slightly more complex unranked matchmaker. If anything, it's just more unwieldy.
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On September 19 2012 14:24 Plexa wrote:
The introduction of unranked matchmaking is surely a relief to a number of people, and undoubtedly is a positive for HotS. What people might not be aware of is that the unranked matchmaking normally pairs you with a person who is playing ranked ladder. That means your opponent will still win/lose points from the game, but you won't! I also suspect that laddering unranked still changes your MMR, more on that in a bit.
A non issue? Perhaps. But say I want to practice PvT and not PvZ/PvP, so I instantly leave any non-Terran game. My opponents will get points for doing nothing. I actually did this last night, and after losing a lot of games (tons of protoss on the ladder lately) I found that my opponents were noticeably easier. This makes me suspect that my MMR changed as well - if anyone has any resources to calculate that (for HotS) I'd happily test this theory.
Imo, this isn't a major issue facing HotS, at least not big enough to warrant removing it. However, there is a potential for abuse at the highest (and lowest) ends of the ladder and the possibility that some people will play unranked with the intention of leaving the game at the end, regardless of how the game plays out.
Are you kidding me? That sounds like a HUGE issue.
They're essentially undermining the validity of ranked ladder with this system. Hopefully this is just something they're doing for beta and hopefully the two ladders are separated completely when the game launches.
If not, I can see a lot of problems developing out of this.
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fuck abuse, its about getting people to play the game, that is the most important. If ranked only faced ranked, and unranked only faced unranked. That is segregating the ladder community. the people that are going to abuse, will mass loose /abuse regardless in ranked or unranked modes. The mmr is global so it will show by the league you are in. You cant all of a sudden fuck around in unranked and expect to make high ranks in ranked mode. My point is, these abusers will do it regardless what mode they play in if thats their intention. Its like trying to solve computer piracy with shit like DRM which at the end of the day only screws over the legitimate customer.
At this point, the way how it is now is ideal. However in my opinion, This is not the way to go about it.
The best solution, is to cut all this ranked and unranked garbage and solve in it one step .
Solution = at any time you can change your profile to public or private. Which means, if you set it to private absolutely no one can see your stats or win loose records. ( people will be able to see your place within a division or what league you are in, but none of the win /loose stats are revealed. If set to public then you give permission for other players to view your stuff.
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Why not just have seperate MMR & ladder for each race you choose?
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On September 20 2012 01:23 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 00:29 y0su wrote:On September 20 2012 00:09 Acritter wrote:On September 19 2012 17:16 Geos13 wrote:
I find it interesting that you were trying to practice specific builds when you thought you were playing random non-mmr opponents. What was the point? If in the first game your build crushes a bronze level player and in the second game the build is crushed by a much better player then you, what have you learned? You might as well just practice the timings against an ai.
I think what is really being discussed is the purpose of unranked match finding. Blizzard seems to believe it is to protect players from having an emotional connection to their losses while still providing a fair challenge but some in the community feel it should be a random battle primarily for lols. I don't do this myself but can't you find random people to 1v1 on custom game maps? It's always been assumed that who you get matched with in unranked play is based on your MMR. What was NOT expected is that the unranked play CHANGES your MMR. If it really does change your MMR (waiting for our noble waffle to get back to us on that one), then it's not really unranked, is it? It's just ranked but without points. Oh, and the PURPOSE of unranked matches is really whatever you'd like it to be. Plexa was trying to use it so that he'd be able to focus on a specific race matchup so that he could better structure his practice time. I could see myself doing the same, along with practicing on a certain map (let's say I really need to perfect my Blink Obs play on Antiga) or even just for if I feel a little mentally rattled and want to play a few games without hurting my ladder points. Hell, I bet most people will use unranked for testing out new build orders and warming up before a serious ladder session. As you see, there's nothing about emotional losses there. It's about getting new tools to strengthen your skills at Starcraft, because you're able to VERY easily find someone at your skill level and play a quick match with nothing but time at stake. And that's something amazingly useful, and if implemented will be the first real advance over the Warcraft III Battlenet. So forgive me if I don't take your objections to heart. This feature has the potential to be so good that I'm simply not comfortable leaving it as anything less. Joining unranked queue only to leave every time you don't get the race(s)/map(s) you want kind of wastes the time of every one else. If you're trying to do race or map specific builds wouldn't you be much better off just trying to find practice partners (even random custom games for map choices)? I really don't see any use to unranked matches that couldn't be fixed by making the custom game selection better. Make it similar to the dungeon finder was in WoW - select/veto maps you do/don't want, race(s) you want, race(s) you want to play against and have some sort of self and opponent level selection and queue. Sure players could lie about their skill level but it probably would be better than the game basing your unranked MMR on your ladder when you're off racing, playing drunk or letting a friend play. First off: read my first post in the thread. I'm of the opinion that you should be able to select race matchups and even maps when you're playing unranked. It's not like it's possible to "game the system", because there IS no system. Regarding practice partners, the issue with them is twofold: they're predictable and you're predictable. If you're trying to learn a new build order, you could very well have your execution gimped because they don't figure out the way to beat it. If you're trying to learn an unorthodox new build order, they're likely going to take steps to blind counter it, sometimes without consciously thinking about it (example: scouting gas in PvT and preparing to defend a Hellion drop when it could be a multitude of other builds). Going up against random opponents means you get to see a wider range of reactions to your build. The problem with just doing it through customs is that what you just described is no different than setting up a slightly more complex unranked matchmaker. If anything, it's just more unwieldy.
I guess I'd rather have them fix the custom game options instead of leaving so much to be desired there while implementing a new system (that in current form already has major issues).
Not that an unranked queue couldn't work but I see several problems that have come up in this thread.
Are you playing vs ranked players? - probably only in beta.
Does your UR MMR change? hopefully - if I was using this to learn a new race I'd like it to reflect and match me vs appropriate players. However, unless there's one for each race + Show Spoiler +I know, people would like this but let's be realistic
If UR MMR was based off your R MMR, would it "reset" to mirror every time you played a ranked match?
Last, would UR MMR affect your 1v1 R MMR? hopefully not!
I just think it achieves the same goal (a way to practice the matchups you want, on the maps you want at the level you want) if they focused more on improving the custom game options while fixing something that is broken. (We'll just have to disagree on what we think would be more unwieldy) :D
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On September 20 2012 04:48 y0su wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 01:23 Acritter wrote:On September 20 2012 00:29 y0su wrote:On September 20 2012 00:09 Acritter wrote:On September 19 2012 17:16 Geos13 wrote:
I find it interesting that you were trying to practice specific builds when you thought you were playing random non-mmr opponents. What was the point? If in the first game your build crushes a bronze level player and in the second game the build is crushed by a much better player then you, what have you learned? You might as well just practice the timings against an ai.
I think what is really being discussed is the purpose of unranked match finding. Blizzard seems to believe it is to protect players from having an emotional connection to their losses while still providing a fair challenge but some in the community feel it should be a random battle primarily for lols. I don't do this myself but can't you find random people to 1v1 on custom game maps? It's always been assumed that who you get matched with in unranked play is based on your MMR. What was NOT expected is that the unranked play CHANGES your MMR. If it really does change your MMR (waiting for our noble waffle to get back to us on that one), then it's not really unranked, is it? It's just ranked but without points. Oh, and the PURPOSE of unranked matches is really whatever you'd like it to be. Plexa was trying to use it so that he'd be able to focus on a specific race matchup so that he could better structure his practice time. I could see myself doing the same, along with practicing on a certain map (let's say I really need to perfect my Blink Obs play on Antiga) or even just for if I feel a little mentally rattled and want to play a few games without hurting my ladder points. Hell, I bet most people will use unranked for testing out new build orders and warming up before a serious ladder session. As you see, there's nothing about emotional losses there. It's about getting new tools to strengthen your skills at Starcraft, because you're able to VERY easily find someone at your skill level and play a quick match with nothing but time at stake. And that's something amazingly useful, and if implemented will be the first real advance over the Warcraft III Battlenet. So forgive me if I don't take your objections to heart. This feature has the potential to be so good that I'm simply not comfortable leaving it as anything less. Joining unranked queue only to leave every time you don't get the race(s)/map(s) you want kind of wastes the time of every one else. If you're trying to do race or map specific builds wouldn't you be much better off just trying to find practice partners (even random custom games for map choices)? I really don't see any use to unranked matches that couldn't be fixed by making the custom game selection better. Make it similar to the dungeon finder was in WoW - select/veto maps you do/don't want, race(s) you want, race(s) you want to play against and have some sort of self and opponent level selection and queue. Sure players could lie about their skill level but it probably would be better than the game basing your unranked MMR on your ladder when you're off racing, playing drunk or letting a friend play. First off: read my first post in the thread. I'm of the opinion that you should be able to select race matchups and even maps when you're playing unranked. It's not like it's possible to "game the system", because there IS no system. Regarding practice partners, the issue with them is twofold: they're predictable and you're predictable. If you're trying to learn a new build order, you could very well have your execution gimped because they don't figure out the way to beat it. If you're trying to learn an unorthodox new build order, they're likely going to take steps to blind counter it, sometimes without consciously thinking about it (example: scouting gas in PvT and preparing to defend a Hellion drop when it could be a multitude of other builds). Going up against random opponents means you get to see a wider range of reactions to your build. The problem with just doing it through customs is that what you just described is no different than setting up a slightly more complex unranked matchmaker. If anything, it's just more unwieldy. I guess I'd rather have them fix the custom game options instead of leaving so much to be desired there while implementing a new system (that in current form already has major issues). Not that an unranked queue couldn't work but I see several problems that have come up in this thread. Are you playing vs ranked players? - probably only in beta.Does your UR MMR change? hopefully - if I was using this to learn a new race I'd like it to reflect and match me vs appropriate players. However, unless there's one for each race + Show Spoiler +I know, people would like this but let's be realistic If UR MMR was based off your R MMR, would it "reset" to mirror every time you played a ranked match? Last, would UR MMR affect your 1v1 R MMR? hopefully not!I just think it achieves the same goal (a way to practice the matchups you want, on the maps you want at the level you want) if they focused more on improving the custom game options while fixing something that is broken. (We'll just have to disagree on what we think would be more unwieldy) :D
I just don't see how it's possible to expand the custom game system without introducing more complication than is really needed. First off, how do you implement the filters? Are they a Blizzard default, or something set by the mapmaker? For things like race, you'd have to add in ways to enforce it on people. For skill level filters, it gets far easier than ever before for players to abuse it (because you don't have to tank your ladder MMR in order to make Bronzies miserable). That's just going to undermine the system, because the lower league players will avoid using customs because NOBODY wants to be utterly humiliated. That's nobody's idea of a good time. Finally, even if you do figure out all the filters and get it set up, you then have to wait for an opponent to show and possibly discuss a few things with them before starting the game. Compare this to a ladder matchmaker, where you click the basic two buttons (game type and your race), the button marked "Unranked", a button for your opponent's race, and then presumably open up the map selection window where you have unlimited vetoes before finally hitting that "Find Match" button. Most of those steps are exactly the same as what you'd have to do for ranked play, with the only additions being another set of buttons to click and more vetoes. The only improvement that the custom game system really NEEDS is named games. With those, all "filters" can be implemented on a far more comprehensive level (FASTEST MAP POSSIBLE 4V4 NR 30 MIN PRO ONLY) than a Blizzard- or mapmaker-built system could ever be.
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On September 20 2012 00:09 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 17:16 Geos13 wrote:
I find it interesting that you were trying to practice specific builds when you thought you were playing random non-mmr opponents. What was the point? If in the first game your build crushes a bronze level player and in the second game the build is crushed by a much better player then you, what have you learned? You might as well just practice the timings against an ai.
I think what is really being discussed is the purpose of unranked match finding. Blizzard seems to believe it is to protect players from having an emotional connection to their losses while still providing a fair challenge but some in the community feel it should be a random battle primarily for lols. I don't do this myself but can't you find random people to 1v1 on custom game maps? It's always been assumed that who you get matched with in unranked play is based on your MMR. What was NOT expected is that the unranked play CHANGES your MMR.
This doesn't make sense. Many peope(I'm guessing the majority of people) will only play unranked matches. If unranked games do not change your MMR then within the first month of gaming their will be tens of thousands of gamers playing well outside of whatever MMR they happened to start with. If the ranked and unranked pools are combined then this will absolutely destroy the competitiveness of the ranked ladder. If the pools are not mixed then unranked players will still not be being matched up with opponents based on their MMR even if they themselves are still playing ranked.
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Unranked is invaluable for beta testing, as trying to do cutesy stuff with the new units will get you mauled when facing people your level, which of course crashes your mmr and puts you up against noobs.
I'm not sure if I want it to be implemented into the actual game, though. Maybe, but I'm not too sure about it.
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On September 19 2012 23:48 Icks wrote:
I think they should remove this feature and just display clearly the "medals" next to nicknames on chats and/or make Master/Diamond/Gold/Silver/Bronze chatrooms so as you can arrange custom games against players globally around your level.
Seriously... Can't players talk to eachother anymore?
Believe me, is pretty hard to find practice partners this days. It was REALLY easy like 6-10 months ago but now is like A LOT of people just leaved the game.
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The purpose is for people that haven't played in a while. When you don't play your mmr drops. Then you fear playing again because you'll be placed in a lower league and will need to farm games to get back to your league. So if you play unranked you can get your mmr higher without being in a league and then get placed in your actual league without needing to farm from a lower one.
One option that could be good too is if you want a friend to play on your account, to be able to select a league that's lower than yours. But maybe it defeats the purpose of the ladder, and trolls would use that too often.
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or you could just not give an F about your MMR unless you get a prize for finishing number 1 GM
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imo, the one who will be using unranked ladder the most would be plat and above.
It strikes me to see how many plat+ players play the obs custom maps and I have yet to see any silver and below playing.
This means the unranked ladder would be quite competitive if MMR is not considered.
That's just my opinion though
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EPT
