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Aotearoa39261 Posts
The introduction of unranked matchmaking is surely a relief to a number of people, and undoubtedly is a positive for HotS. What people might not be aware of is that the unranked matchmaking normally pairs you with a person who is playing ranked ladder. That means your opponent will still win/lose points from the game, but you won't! I also suspect that laddering unranked still changes your MMR, more on that in a bit.
A non issue? Perhaps. But say I want to practice PvT and not PvZ/PvP, so I instantly leave any non-Terran game. My opponents will get points for doing nothing. I actually did this last night, and after losing a lot of games (tons of protoss on the ladder lately) I found that my opponents were noticeably easier. This makes me suspect that my MMR changed as well - if anyone has any resources to calculate that (for HotS) I'd happily test this theory.
EDIT: MMR is unaffected. No matter how much I lose I'm still getting paired with GM players.
Imo, this isn't a major issue facing HotS, at least not big enough to warrant removing it. However, there is a potential for abuse at the highest (and lowest) ends of the ladder and the possibility that some people will play unranked with the intention of leaving the game at the end, regardless of how the game plays out.
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It's a valid concern, but I'm sure Blizzard will figure it out. What I think would be even better is this...each account has delegate MMRs for each race. I'm looking forward to off racing on ladder, but I know that once I start getting good with Protoss, I'll want to see where I stand on the ladder with them, without messing up my Zerg MMR.
And for Random players it should keep an MMR for you as random. When the match is over, always have the outcome take effect on random, but also have it affect the MMR of whatever race you are playing as.
I think would be a good system, because then you can feel free to try another race, get matched up against someone of your skill level and not worry about one MMR screwing up your main.
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The solution to this is the following:
- 5 placement matches to determine your "rank" (not shown, nor wins or losses)
- Allow players the ability to restart/reset their 5 placement matches [if they want to try a new race, etc.]
*The ability to restart their 5 placement matches has a significant cooldown, several days or even a month
Hopefully unranked will be made that they play other unranked and playing ranked players is only to shorten the already extensive waiting period (if there is one after "expanding search")
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how about instead of all this complicated and random shit, we just get the ability to make new accounts?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 19 2012 14:45 Torte de Lini wrote:The solution to this is the following: - 5 placement matches to determine your "rank" (not shown, nor wins or losses)
- Allow players the ability to restart/reset their 5 placement matches [if they want to try a new race, etc.]
*The ability to restart their 5 placement matches has a significant cooldown, several days or even a month
Hopefully unranked will be made that they play other unranked and playing ranked players is only to shorten the already extensive waiting period (if there is one after "expanding search")
Its plausible that there is an unranked mmr which is the same as you ranked mmr until unranked games are played. I'd need some tools to calculate this though.
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perhaps matching unranked with ranked is only temporary for the beta since the beta has so few people playing.
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I'd just like to see what should have been implemented a long time ago, which is separate rankings for each race.
It would be nice to have a few adjustments to unranked, though, such as not matching you against ranked players and not changing your MMR and allowing you to select the race you're going to play against. Hell, might as well let you pick the map while you're at it. I mean, there's no real way to ABUSE unranked play, is there? Why not give people more options?
Also, Plexa, as a follow-up, could you get into high Masters or something with ranked and then deliberately tank your MMR via unranked to see if you can get demoted? Chances are you'd need to play a ranked match to finish the demotion, but if you were able to do this successfully it would be conclusive proof that unranked shifts your MMR. If you weren't able to, it would be very strong evidence that it didn't affect MMR.
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I find it interesting that you were trying to practice specific builds when you thought you were playing random non-mmr opponents. What was the point? If in the first game your build crushes a bronze level player and in the second game the build is crushed by a much better player then you, what have you learned? You might as well just practice the timings against an ai.
I think what is really being discussed is the purpose of unranked match finding. Blizzard seems to believe it is to protect players from having an emotional connection to their losses while still providing a fair challenge but some in the community feel it should be a random battle primarily for lols. I don't do this myself but can't you find random people to 1v1 on custom game maps?
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Italy12246 Posts
That doesn't make sense, i thought it would just be like custom games are currently, only playing on a random map the matchmaking system starts up for you.
If implemented like you said Plexa, it doesn't make sense. My offraces are completely beyond shit awful compared to my Protoss, so if i want to practice them 1) i don't want it to screw up my main's mmr 2) i can't play people who i would normally face with my main race because i'll just get destroyed.
It's like they think people only care about ladder points, rather than MMR, league placement (i am SO not master with T and Z), and skill level of the opponents.
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I think there should be rule to make priority for an unranked player to be paired to another unranked player. If there is no one else, then pair to the next.
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Perhaps they could add for unranked matches a matchup selection option.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 19 2012 16:41 Acritter wrote:
I'd just like to see what should have been implemented a long time ago, which is separate rankings for each race.
It would be nice to have a few adjustments to unranked, though, such as not matching you against ranked players and not changing your MMR and allowing you to select the race you're going to play against. Hell, might as well let you pick the map while you're at it. I mean, there's no real way to ABUSE unranked play, is there? Why not give people more options?
Also, Plexa, as a follow-up, could you get into high Masters or something with ranked and then deliberately tank your MMR via unranked to see if you can get demoted? Chances are you'd need to play a ranked match to finish the demotion, but if you were able to do this successfully it would be conclusive proof that unranked shifts your MMR. If you weren't able to, it would be very strong evidence that it didn't affect MMR.
Good point. I'll drop 20~ games or something and see what happens.
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So I could get masters by just continually losing in unranked and get matched vs weaker players on my main?
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Ladies, this new feature is meant for those not playing ladder, but only custom. They don't care about MMR in the first place. They will however find a even skilled opponent instead of master players 23/7 on current custom games.
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On September 19 2012 18:58 Hetz wrote:
Ladies, this new feature is meant for those not playing ladder, but only custom. They don't care about MMR in the first place. They will however find a even skilled opponent instead of master players 23/7 on current custom games.
Source? No baseless arguments please.
Also, thanks for the research Plexa  I think people are right in that matching with ranked players is a beta-only necessity to avoid insane queueing times, but MMR dropping in unranked matches is a bit worrysome.
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Wait I always though unranked gets matched with unranked...
What the hell....
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It might be that unranked is only matched with unranked in the beta due to low number of players.
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There should be a separate MMR for unranked and ranked games. The ranked & unranked matching eachother isn't a problem otherwise.
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I think they should remove this feature and just display clearly the "medals" next to nicknames on chats and/or make Master/Diamond/Gold/Silver/Bronze chatrooms so as you can arrange custom games against players globally around your level.
Seriously... Can't players talk to eachother anymore?
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On September 19 2012 17:16 Geos13 wrote:
I find it interesting that you were trying to practice specific builds when you thought you were playing random non-mmr opponents. What was the point? If in the first game your build crushes a bronze level player and in the second game the build is crushed by a much better player then you, what have you learned? You might as well just practice the timings against an ai.
I think what is really being discussed is the purpose of unranked match finding. Blizzard seems to believe it is to protect players from having an emotional connection to their losses while still providing a fair challenge but some in the community feel it should be a random battle primarily for lols. I don't do this myself but can't you find random people to 1v1 on custom game maps?
It's always been assumed that who you get matched with in unranked play is based on your MMR. What was NOT expected is that the unranked play CHANGES your MMR. If it really does change your MMR (waiting for our noble waffle to get back to us on that one), then it's not really unranked, is it? It's just ranked but without points.
Oh, and the PURPOSE of unranked matches is really whatever you'd like it to be. Plexa was trying to use it so that he'd be able to focus on a specific race matchup so that he could better structure his practice time. I could see myself doing the same, along with practicing on a certain map (let's say I really need to perfect my Blink Obs play on Antiga) or even just for if I feel a little mentally rattled and want to play a few games without hurting my ladder points. Hell, I bet most people will use unranked for testing out new build orders and warming up before a serious ladder session. As you see, there's nothing about emotional losses there. It's about getting new tools to strengthen your skills at Starcraft, because you're able to VERY easily find someone at your skill level and play a quick match with nothing but time at stake. And that's something amazingly useful, and if implemented will be the first real advance over the Warcraft III Battlenet.
So forgive me if I don't take your objections to heart. This feature has the potential to be so good that I'm simply not comfortable leaving it as anything less.
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It must be temporary, the most common sense way to do unranked matches is to simply freeze your ranked MMR and use it on an unranked ladder so you can indefinitely practice with other similarly skilled (their frozen MMR being similar to yours) players. As the poster above mentioned, a changing unranked MMR would defeat the purpose of it being 'unranked' (I don't think anyone cares solely whether you can see your league/rank or not, its dropping down in MMR that people are worried about).
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On September 20 2012 00:09 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 17:16 Geos13 wrote:
I find it interesting that you were trying to practice specific builds when you thought you were playing random non-mmr opponents. What was the point? If in the first game your build crushes a bronze level player and in the second game the build is crushed by a much better player then you, what have you learned? You might as well just practice the timings against an ai.
I think what is really being discussed is the purpose of unranked match finding. Blizzard seems to believe it is to protect players from having an emotional connection to their losses while still providing a fair challenge but some in the community feel it should be a random battle primarily for lols. I don't do this myself but can't you find random people to 1v1 on custom game maps? It's always been assumed that who you get matched with in unranked play is based on your MMR. What was NOT expected is that the unranked play CHANGES your MMR. If it really does change your MMR (waiting for our noble waffle to get back to us on that one), then it's not really unranked, is it? It's just ranked but without points. Oh, and the PURPOSE of unranked matches is really whatever you'd like it to be. Plexa was trying to use it so that he'd be able to focus on a specific race matchup so that he could better structure his practice time. I could see myself doing the same, along with practicing on a certain map (let's say I really need to perfect my Blink Obs play on Antiga) or even just for if I feel a little mentally rattled and want to play a few games without hurting my ladder points. Hell, I bet most people will use unranked for testing out new build orders and warming up before a serious ladder session. As you see, there's nothing about emotional losses there. It's about getting new tools to strengthen your skills at Starcraft, because you're able to VERY easily find someone at your skill level and play a quick match with nothing but time at stake. And that's something amazingly useful, and if implemented will be the first real advance over the Warcraft III Battlenet. So forgive me if I don't take your objections to heart. This feature has the potential to be so good that I'm simply not comfortable leaving it as anything less.
Joining unranked queue only to leave every time you don't get the race(s)/map(s) you want kind of wastes the time of every one else. If you're trying to do race or map specific builds wouldn't you be much better off just trying to find practice partners (even random custom games for map choices)?
I really don't see any use to unranked matches that couldn't be fixed by making the custom game selection better. Make it similar to the dungeon finder was in WoW - select/veto maps you do/don't want, race(s) you want, race(s) you want to play against and have some sort of self and opponent level selection and queue. Sure players could lie about their skill level but it probably would be better than the game basing your unranked MMR on your ladder when you're off racing, playing drunk or letting a friend play.
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On September 19 2012 14:24 Plexa wrote:
The introduction of unranked matchmaking is surely a relief to a number of people, and undoubtedly is a positive for HotS. What people might not be aware of is that the unranked matchmaking normally pairs you with a person who is playing ranked ladder. That means your opponent will still win/lose points from the game, but you won't! I also suspect that laddering unranked still changes your MMR, more on that in a bit.
A non issue? Perhaps. But say I want to practice PvT and not PvZ/PvP, so I instantly leave any non-Terran game. My opponents will get points for doing nothing. I actually did this last night, and after losing a lot of games (tons of protoss on the ladder lately) I found that my opponents were noticeably easier. This makes me suspect that my MMR changed as well - if anyone has any resources to calculate that (for HotS) I'd happily test this theory.
Imo, this isn't a major issue facing HotS, at least not big enough to warrant removing it. However, there is a potential for abuse at the highest (and lowest) ends of the ladder and the possibility that some people will play unranked with the intention of leaving the game at the end, regardless of how the game plays out.
Isn't it possible that they are mixing matchmaking types just to keep wait times reasonable since the beta player count is so low?
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Easy solution: GIve people the option to erase all ranks/points/etc from view. Throw in lots of aesthetic achievements not related to victory so people feel like they've accomplished something.
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I'm pretty sure i read at some point that you have an MMR for Ranked and a separete MMR for Unranked matches.
I'm not in the beta so i can't test it. But you could drop a large amount of Unranked games, then try a couple of ranked games and see if there is a difference 
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Ah and I was worried for a moment about the unranked stuff. If they would divide it, it would reduce the player base. If they wouldn't punish people for leaving, then unranked games would be simply a leave fest. Imagine 50% of the people want to only play one matchup on unranked games. And then add those people who have their "I want to annoy people" day and proceed to lower their mmr and own through lower unranked region staying there because their mmr is unaffected.
I think it will be really hard to find a good system that will prevent any form of abuse without splitting the player base. But Imo Blizzard should atleast share how it does work, so they get an easier feedback on this. Though this topic is probably low priority and they might address it post beta.
And what the person above me said, I remember that too. That it starts with your Ladder MMR and then uses its own. But this is beta, who knows if its implented already.
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Just allowing to pick your opponent's race (or even map) in unranked would solve a lot of problems, and would allow great practice games.
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On September 20 2012 00:29 y0su wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 00:09 Acritter wrote:On September 19 2012 17:16 Geos13 wrote:
I find it interesting that you were trying to practice specific builds when you thought you were playing random non-mmr opponents. What was the point? If in the first game your build crushes a bronze level player and in the second game the build is crushed by a much better player then you, what have you learned? You might as well just practice the timings against an ai.
I think what is really being discussed is the purpose of unranked match finding. Blizzard seems to believe it is to protect players from having an emotional connection to their losses while still providing a fair challenge but some in the community feel it should be a random battle primarily for lols. I don't do this myself but can't you find random people to 1v1 on custom game maps? It's always been assumed that who you get matched with in unranked play is based on your MMR. What was NOT expected is that the unranked play CHANGES your MMR. If it really does change your MMR (waiting for our noble waffle to get back to us on that one), then it's not really unranked, is it? It's just ranked but without points. Oh, and the PURPOSE of unranked matches is really whatever you'd like it to be. Plexa was trying to use it so that he'd be able to focus on a specific race matchup so that he could better structure his practice time. I could see myself doing the same, along with practicing on a certain map (let's say I really need to perfect my Blink Obs play on Antiga) or even just for if I feel a little mentally rattled and want to play a few games without hurting my ladder points. Hell, I bet most people will use unranked for testing out new build orders and warming up before a serious ladder session. As you see, there's nothing about emotional losses there. It's about getting new tools to strengthen your skills at Starcraft, because you're able to VERY easily find someone at your skill level and play a quick match with nothing but time at stake. And that's something amazingly useful, and if implemented will be the first real advance over the Warcraft III Battlenet. So forgive me if I don't take your objections to heart. This feature has the potential to be so good that I'm simply not comfortable leaving it as anything less. Joining unranked queue only to leave every time you don't get the race(s)/map(s) you want kind of wastes the time of every one else. If you're trying to do race or map specific builds wouldn't you be much better off just trying to find practice partners (even random custom games for map choices)? I really don't see any use to unranked matches that couldn't be fixed by making the custom game selection better. Make it similar to the dungeon finder was in WoW - select/veto maps you do/don't want, race(s) you want, race(s) you want to play against and have some sort of self and opponent level selection and queue. Sure players could lie about their skill level but it probably would be better than the game basing your unranked MMR on your ladder when you're off racing, playing drunk or letting a friend play.
First off: read my first post in the thread. I'm of the opinion that you should be able to select race matchups and even maps when you're playing unranked. It's not like it's possible to "game the system", because there IS no system.
Regarding practice partners, the issue with them is twofold: they're predictable and you're predictable. If you're trying to learn a new build order, you could very well have your execution gimped because they don't figure out the way to beat it. If you're trying to learn an unorthodox new build order, they're likely going to take steps to blind counter it, sometimes without consciously thinking about it (example: scouting gas in PvT and preparing to defend a Hellion drop when it could be a multitude of other builds). Going up against random opponents means you get to see a wider range of reactions to your build.
The problem with just doing it through customs is that what you just described is no different than setting up a slightly more complex unranked matchmaker. If anything, it's just more unwieldy.
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On September 19 2012 14:24 Plexa wrote:
The introduction of unranked matchmaking is surely a relief to a number of people, and undoubtedly is a positive for HotS. What people might not be aware of is that the unranked matchmaking normally pairs you with a person who is playing ranked ladder. That means your opponent will still win/lose points from the game, but you won't! I also suspect that laddering unranked still changes your MMR, more on that in a bit.
A non issue? Perhaps. But say I want to practice PvT and not PvZ/PvP, so I instantly leave any non-Terran game. My opponents will get points for doing nothing. I actually did this last night, and after losing a lot of games (tons of protoss on the ladder lately) I found that my opponents were noticeably easier. This makes me suspect that my MMR changed as well - if anyone has any resources to calculate that (for HotS) I'd happily test this theory.
Imo, this isn't a major issue facing HotS, at least not big enough to warrant removing it. However, there is a potential for abuse at the highest (and lowest) ends of the ladder and the possibility that some people will play unranked with the intention of leaving the game at the end, regardless of how the game plays out.
Are you kidding me? That sounds like a HUGE issue.
They're essentially undermining the validity of ranked ladder with this system. Hopefully this is just something they're doing for beta and hopefully the two ladders are separated completely when the game launches.
If not, I can see a lot of problems developing out of this.
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fuck abuse, its about getting people to play the game, that is the most important. If ranked only faced ranked, and unranked only faced unranked. That is segregating the ladder community. the people that are going to abuse, will mass loose /abuse regardless in ranked or unranked modes. The mmr is global so it will show by the league you are in. You cant all of a sudden fuck around in unranked and expect to make high ranks in ranked mode. My point is, these abusers will do it regardless what mode they play in if thats their intention. Its like trying to solve computer piracy with shit like DRM which at the end of the day only screws over the legitimate customer.
At this point, the way how it is now is ideal. However in my opinion, This is not the way to go about it.
The best solution, is to cut all this ranked and unranked garbage and solve in it one step .
Solution = at any time you can change your profile to public or private. Which means, if you set it to private absolutely no one can see your stats or win loose records. ( people will be able to see your place within a division or what league you are in, but none of the win /loose stats are revealed. If set to public then you give permission for other players to view your stuff.
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Why not just have seperate MMR & ladder for each race you choose?
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On September 20 2012 01:23 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 00:29 y0su wrote:On September 20 2012 00:09 Acritter wrote:On September 19 2012 17:16 Geos13 wrote:
I find it interesting that you were trying to practice specific builds when you thought you were playing random non-mmr opponents. What was the point? If in the first game your build crushes a bronze level player and in the second game the build is crushed by a much better player then you, what have you learned? You might as well just practice the timings against an ai.
I think what is really being discussed is the purpose of unranked match finding. Blizzard seems to believe it is to protect players from having an emotional connection to their losses while still providing a fair challenge but some in the community feel it should be a random battle primarily for lols. I don't do this myself but can't you find random people to 1v1 on custom game maps? It's always been assumed that who you get matched with in unranked play is based on your MMR. What was NOT expected is that the unranked play CHANGES your MMR. If it really does change your MMR (waiting for our noble waffle to get back to us on that one), then it's not really unranked, is it? It's just ranked but without points. Oh, and the PURPOSE of unranked matches is really whatever you'd like it to be. Plexa was trying to use it so that he'd be able to focus on a specific race matchup so that he could better structure his practice time. I could see myself doing the same, along with practicing on a certain map (let's say I really need to perfect my Blink Obs play on Antiga) or even just for if I feel a little mentally rattled and want to play a few games without hurting my ladder points. Hell, I bet most people will use unranked for testing out new build orders and warming up before a serious ladder session. As you see, there's nothing about emotional losses there. It's about getting new tools to strengthen your skills at Starcraft, because you're able to VERY easily find someone at your skill level and play a quick match with nothing but time at stake. And that's something amazingly useful, and if implemented will be the first real advance over the Warcraft III Battlenet. So forgive me if I don't take your objections to heart. This feature has the potential to be so good that I'm simply not comfortable leaving it as anything less. Joining unranked queue only to leave every time you don't get the race(s)/map(s) you want kind of wastes the time of every one else. If you're trying to do race or map specific builds wouldn't you be much better off just trying to find practice partners (even random custom games for map choices)? I really don't see any use to unranked matches that couldn't be fixed by making the custom game selection better. Make it similar to the dungeon finder was in WoW - select/veto maps you do/don't want, race(s) you want, race(s) you want to play against and have some sort of self and opponent level selection and queue. Sure players could lie about their skill level but it probably would be better than the game basing your unranked MMR on your ladder when you're off racing, playing drunk or letting a friend play. First off: read my first post in the thread. I'm of the opinion that you should be able to select race matchups and even maps when you're playing unranked. It's not like it's possible to "game the system", because there IS no system. Regarding practice partners, the issue with them is twofold: they're predictable and you're predictable. If you're trying to learn a new build order, you could very well have your execution gimped because they don't figure out the way to beat it. If you're trying to learn an unorthodox new build order, they're likely going to take steps to blind counter it, sometimes without consciously thinking about it (example: scouting gas in PvT and preparing to defend a Hellion drop when it could be a multitude of other builds). Going up against random opponents means you get to see a wider range of reactions to your build. The problem with just doing it through customs is that what you just described is no different than setting up a slightly more complex unranked matchmaker. If anything, it's just more unwieldy.
I guess I'd rather have them fix the custom game options instead of leaving so much to be desired there while implementing a new system (that in current form already has major issues).
Not that an unranked queue couldn't work but I see several problems that have come up in this thread.
Are you playing vs ranked players? - probably only in beta.
Does your UR MMR change? hopefully - if I was using this to learn a new race I'd like it to reflect and match me vs appropriate players. However, unless there's one for each race + Show Spoiler +I know, people would like this but let's be realistic
If UR MMR was based off your R MMR, would it "reset" to mirror every time you played a ranked match?
Last, would UR MMR affect your 1v1 R MMR? hopefully not!
I just think it achieves the same goal (a way to practice the matchups you want, on the maps you want at the level you want) if they focused more on improving the custom game options while fixing something that is broken. (We'll just have to disagree on what we think would be more unwieldy) :D
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On September 20 2012 04:48 y0su wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 01:23 Acritter wrote:On September 20 2012 00:29 y0su wrote:On September 20 2012 00:09 Acritter wrote:On September 19 2012 17:16 Geos13 wrote:
I find it interesting that you were trying to practice specific builds when you thought you were playing random non-mmr opponents. What was the point? If in the first game your build crushes a bronze level player and in the second game the build is crushed by a much better player then you, what have you learned? You might as well just practice the timings against an ai.
I think what is really being discussed is the purpose of unranked match finding. Blizzard seems to believe it is to protect players from having an emotional connection to their losses while still providing a fair challenge but some in the community feel it should be a random battle primarily for lols. I don't do this myself but can't you find random people to 1v1 on custom game maps? It's always been assumed that who you get matched with in unranked play is based on your MMR. What was NOT expected is that the unranked play CHANGES your MMR. If it really does change your MMR (waiting for our noble waffle to get back to us on that one), then it's not really unranked, is it? It's just ranked but without points. Oh, and the PURPOSE of unranked matches is really whatever you'd like it to be. Plexa was trying to use it so that he'd be able to focus on a specific race matchup so that he could better structure his practice time. I could see myself doing the same, along with practicing on a certain map (let's say I really need to perfect my Blink Obs play on Antiga) or even just for if I feel a little mentally rattled and want to play a few games without hurting my ladder points. Hell, I bet most people will use unranked for testing out new build orders and warming up before a serious ladder session. As you see, there's nothing about emotional losses there. It's about getting new tools to strengthen your skills at Starcraft, because you're able to VERY easily find someone at your skill level and play a quick match with nothing but time at stake. And that's something amazingly useful, and if implemented will be the first real advance over the Warcraft III Battlenet. So forgive me if I don't take your objections to heart. This feature has the potential to be so good that I'm simply not comfortable leaving it as anything less. Joining unranked queue only to leave every time you don't get the race(s)/map(s) you want kind of wastes the time of every one else. If you're trying to do race or map specific builds wouldn't you be much better off just trying to find practice partners (even random custom games for map choices)? I really don't see any use to unranked matches that couldn't be fixed by making the custom game selection better. Make it similar to the dungeon finder was in WoW - select/veto maps you do/don't want, race(s) you want, race(s) you want to play against and have some sort of self and opponent level selection and queue. Sure players could lie about their skill level but it probably would be better than the game basing your unranked MMR on your ladder when you're off racing, playing drunk or letting a friend play. First off: read my first post in the thread. I'm of the opinion that you should be able to select race matchups and even maps when you're playing unranked. It's not like it's possible to "game the system", because there IS no system. Regarding practice partners, the issue with them is twofold: they're predictable and you're predictable. If you're trying to learn a new build order, you could very well have your execution gimped because they don't figure out the way to beat it. If you're trying to learn an unorthodox new build order, they're likely going to take steps to blind counter it, sometimes without consciously thinking about it (example: scouting gas in PvT and preparing to defend a Hellion drop when it could be a multitude of other builds). Going up against random opponents means you get to see a wider range of reactions to your build. The problem with just doing it through customs is that what you just described is no different than setting up a slightly more complex unranked matchmaker. If anything, it's just more unwieldy. I guess I'd rather have them fix the custom game options instead of leaving so much to be desired there while implementing a new system (that in current form already has major issues). Not that an unranked queue couldn't work but I see several problems that have come up in this thread. Are you playing vs ranked players? - probably only in beta.Does your UR MMR change? hopefully - if I was using this to learn a new race I'd like it to reflect and match me vs appropriate players. However, unless there's one for each race + Show Spoiler +I know, people would like this but let's be realistic If UR MMR was based off your R MMR, would it "reset" to mirror every time you played a ranked match? Last, would UR MMR affect your 1v1 R MMR? hopefully not!I just think it achieves the same goal (a way to practice the matchups you want, on the maps you want at the level you want) if they focused more on improving the custom game options while fixing something that is broken. (We'll just have to disagree on what we think would be more unwieldy) :D
I just don't see how it's possible to expand the custom game system without introducing more complication than is really needed. First off, how do you implement the filters? Are they a Blizzard default, or something set by the mapmaker? For things like race, you'd have to add in ways to enforce it on people. For skill level filters, it gets far easier than ever before for players to abuse it (because you don't have to tank your ladder MMR in order to make Bronzies miserable). That's just going to undermine the system, because the lower league players will avoid using customs because NOBODY wants to be utterly humiliated. That's nobody's idea of a good time. Finally, even if you do figure out all the filters and get it set up, you then have to wait for an opponent to show and possibly discuss a few things with them before starting the game. Compare this to a ladder matchmaker, where you click the basic two buttons (game type and your race), the button marked "Unranked", a button for your opponent's race, and then presumably open up the map selection window where you have unlimited vetoes before finally hitting that "Find Match" button. Most of those steps are exactly the same as what you'd have to do for ranked play, with the only additions being another set of buttons to click and more vetoes. The only improvement that the custom game system really NEEDS is named games. With those, all "filters" can be implemented on a far more comprehensive level (FASTEST MAP POSSIBLE 4V4 NR 30 MIN PRO ONLY) than a Blizzard- or mapmaker-built system could ever be.
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On September 20 2012 00:09 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 17:16 Geos13 wrote:
I find it interesting that you were trying to practice specific builds when you thought you were playing random non-mmr opponents. What was the point? If in the first game your build crushes a bronze level player and in the second game the build is crushed by a much better player then you, what have you learned? You might as well just practice the timings against an ai.
I think what is really being discussed is the purpose of unranked match finding. Blizzard seems to believe it is to protect players from having an emotional connection to their losses while still providing a fair challenge but some in the community feel it should be a random battle primarily for lols. I don't do this myself but can't you find random people to 1v1 on custom game maps? It's always been assumed that who you get matched with in unranked play is based on your MMR. What was NOT expected is that the unranked play CHANGES your MMR.
This doesn't make sense. Many peope(I'm guessing the majority of people) will only play unranked matches. If unranked games do not change your MMR then within the first month of gaming their will be tens of thousands of gamers playing well outside of whatever MMR they happened to start with. If the ranked and unranked pools are combined then this will absolutely destroy the competitiveness of the ranked ladder. If the pools are not mixed then unranked players will still not be being matched up with opponents based on their MMR even if they themselves are still playing ranked.
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Unranked is invaluable for beta testing, as trying to do cutesy stuff with the new units will get you mauled when facing people your level, which of course crashes your mmr and puts you up against noobs.
I'm not sure if I want it to be implemented into the actual game, though. Maybe, but I'm not too sure about it.
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On September 19 2012 23:48 Icks wrote:
I think they should remove this feature and just display clearly the "medals" next to nicknames on chats and/or make Master/Diamond/Gold/Silver/Bronze chatrooms so as you can arrange custom games against players globally around your level.
Seriously... Can't players talk to eachother anymore?
Believe me, is pretty hard to find practice partners this days. It was REALLY easy like 6-10 months ago but now is like A LOT of people just leaved the game.
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The purpose is for people that haven't played in a while. When you don't play your mmr drops. Then you fear playing again because you'll be placed in a lower league and will need to farm games to get back to your league. So if you play unranked you can get your mmr higher without being in a league and then get placed in your actual league without needing to farm from a lower one.
One option that could be good too is if you want a friend to play on your account, to be able to select a league that's lower than yours. But maybe it defeats the purpose of the ladder, and trolls would use that too often.
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or you could just not give an F about your MMR unless you get a prize for finishing number 1 GM
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imo, the one who will be using unranked ladder the most would be plat and above.
It strikes me to see how many plat+ players play the obs custom maps and I have yet to see any silver and below playing.
This means the unranked ladder would be quite competitive if MMR is not considered.
That's just my opinion though
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On September 20 2012 11:51 Geos13 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 00:09 Acritter wrote:On September 19 2012 17:16 Geos13 wrote:
I find it interesting that you were trying to practice specific builds when you thought you were playing random non-mmr opponents. What was the point? If in the first game your build crushes a bronze level player and in the second game the build is crushed by a much better player then you, what have you learned? You might as well just practice the timings against an ai.
I think what is really being discussed is the purpose of unranked match finding. Blizzard seems to believe it is to protect players from having an emotional connection to their losses while still providing a fair challenge but some in the community feel it should be a random battle primarily for lols. I don't do this myself but can't you find random people to 1v1 on custom game maps? It's always been assumed that who you get matched with in unranked play is based on your MMR. What was NOT expected is that the unranked play CHANGES your MMR. This doesn't make sense. Many peope(I'm guessing the majority of people) will only play unranked matches. If unranked games do not change your MMR then within the first month of gaming their will be tens of thousands of gamers playing well outside of whatever MMR they happened to start with. If the ranked and unranked pools are combined then this will absolutely destroy the competitiveness of the ranked ladder. If the pools are not mixed then unranked players will still not be being matched up with opponents based on their MMR even if they themselves are still playing ranked.
Okay. Let's get into the head of, say, a Gold league player. Right on average. So this Goldie is completely unconfident in his skills as a player. He loses half of the time, and gets really down about it because, well, that's how people are. So he goes into unranked games so that he doesn't have to get stressed out about losing ladder points. After playing for a while, he gets better. Let's say he starts winning 70% of his matches. At this point, our imaginary hero is getting pretty pumped. He starts thinking, "Damn! I've really improved! I'm ready to go back to ladder!" Back on ranked matchmaking, he quickly gets back up to the 50% winrate level, and then starts getting down about it again. So this champion of justice starts playing unranked again, possibly imagining it as "I'm going to play unranked until I stop going on this losing streak." The cycle continues. Players play unranked because they're unconfident in their abilities and don't want to hurt their ladder ranking. After playing enough unranked, they will improve and gain confidence in their abilities again. Then they go back to ladder and play until they get up to a high enough level of play that they lose confidence again. Thus, players who end up outside their appropriate MMR will quickly be drawn back into the fold.
And you're right in that ranked players should only be matched against ranked and unranked against unranked. But the same MMR should be used throughout.
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On September 20 2012 14:08 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 11:51 Geos13 wrote:On September 20 2012 00:09 Acritter wrote:On September 19 2012 17:16 Geos13 wrote:
I find it interesting that you were trying to practice specific builds when you thought you were playing random non-mmr opponents. What was the point? If in the first game your build crushes a bronze level player and in the second game the build is crushed by a much better player then you, what have you learned? You might as well just practice the timings against an ai.
I think what is really being discussed is the purpose of unranked match finding. Blizzard seems to believe it is to protect players from having an emotional connection to their losses while still providing a fair challenge but some in the community feel it should be a random battle primarily for lols. I don't do this myself but can't you find random people to 1v1 on custom game maps? It's always been assumed that who you get matched with in unranked play is based on your MMR. What was NOT expected is that the unranked play CHANGES your MMR. This doesn't make sense. Many peope(I'm guessing the majority of people) will only play unranked matches. If unranked games do not change your MMR then within the first month of gaming their will be tens of thousands of gamers playing well outside of whatever MMR they happened to start with. If the ranked and unranked pools are combined then this will absolutely destroy the competitiveness of the ranked ladder. If the pools are not mixed then unranked players will still not be being matched up with opponents based on their MMR even if they themselves are still playing ranked. Okay. Let's get into the head of, say, a Gold league player. Right on average. So this Goldie is completely unconfident in his skills as a player. He loses half of the time, and gets really down about it because, well, that's how people are. So he goes into unranked games so that he doesn't have to get stressed out about losing ladder points. After playing for a while, he gets better. Let's say he starts winning 70% of his matches. At this point, our imaginary hero is getting pretty pumped. He starts thinking, "Damn! I've really improved! I'm ready to go back to ladder!" Back on ranked matchmaking, he quickly gets back up to the 50% winrate level, and then starts getting down about it again. So this champion of justice starts playing unranked again, possibly imagining it as "I'm going to play unranked until I stop going on this losing streak." The cycle continues. Players play unranked because they're unconfident in their abilities and don't want to hurt their ladder ranking. After playing enough unranked, they will improve and gain confidence in their abilities again. Then they go back to ladder and play until they get up to a high enough level of play that they lose confidence again. Thus, players who end up outside their appropriate MMR will quickly be drawn back into the fold.
You have outlined the ideal scenario but I don't believe that is in reality what would occur for most people. Even if most gamers play the way you describe, undoubtedly not all will and even a sizable percentage playing only unranked would have negative ramifications. However Blizzard will be able to see how it plays out and decide how to proceed based on the data so I guess it's not worth arguing about.
And you're right in that ranked players should only be matched against ranked and unranked against unranked.
Agreed although it will be sad to see the community fractured.
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The way it is right now, Unranked feels like something designed to remove ladder anxiety that will surely promote all types of retarded behavior from players because they don't mind loosing.
IMO unranked should be mainly a practice tool and it could even be called that way.
Here's what it could look like:
PRACTICE GAME OPTIONS:
Your race:
_ Protoss
_ Terran
V Zerg
Opp. race:
_ Protoss
V Terran
_ Zerg
Opp league:
_ Bronze
V Silver
V Gold
_ Platinum
(etc)
And then you get paired with someone with compatible options.
This would solve the frustrating aspects about current custom for the purpose of practicing.
Another option is to remove Opp. league choice and simply match using ladder MMR.
What's the need for unranked MMR anyway, which only complicates things?
OH, and I hope that unranked vs ranked is only in beta. That's outrageous.
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I don't think unranked matches should change your MMR at all tbh if they do then what's the point of ladder? points? ladder points are worthless, everyone knows that ladder anxiety is about being afraid of tanking your MMR. So base unranked matches on your current MMR and make sure they do not change that MMR in any way, and i'm happy.
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I have seen this kind of discussion at least four times already, but there really is no way out. There are just these options:
a) unranked play does not effect your MMR: bad for off-racing, because you always play the same caliber of players as you would normally
b) unranked play does effect your MMR: bad for off-racing, because it is basically the same as ranked.
c) unranked play does neither effect nor use your MMR: bad for anything, just glorified custom games with an easier way to get them.
d) unranked play has its own MMR: the best you could wish for, but equivalent to having another account, thus highly unlikely of Blizzard to do (also, alloeing you to just have another account is practically easier).
So the only think that unrakned play really sovles is the irrational care about ladder points that some people have, but I would like to hope that even the average TL user knows better.
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Well it doesn't seem like something that would help you try another race and completely switch builds. If your MMR will be same/static as in ladder, you will just lose more if you do something new.
They should make it good for trying new race/build. I don't care about points, but I don't like to lose 20 games in row, because I want to do something new.
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What surprises me is Blizzard's refusal to show mmr to cater to "casuals", yet the most "casual" game out there, LoL, does not have hidden MMR. Hopefully with the introduction of unranked matchmaking, they can show mmr for ranked.
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a) unranked play does not effect your MMR: bad for off-racing, because you always play the same caliber of players as you would normally
My idea of choosing opponent's race and league helps off-racing as well.
You can choose to play 1 league under your current one.
You can also practice your off-race one MU at the time, allowing much better results than if you play against all opponents.
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Unranked is for playing drunk. And you don't care who's against you when you're drunk.
Bronzie? Lol at me crushing him with my mouse while the other hand rests firmly on my Gin&Tonic
LiquidHerO? See if I can cannon rush his ass and win with only six probes because I forgot to build more while microing my cannons (yes, I micro my cannons when I'm drunk).
And you should only be matched against other drunk players.
In fact, it should be called drunk ladder and undrunk ladder. Just to be sure everybody is on the same page.
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On September 20 2012 23:03 ant-1 wrote:
Unranked is for playing drunk. And you don't care who's against you when you're drunk.
Bronzie? Lol at me crushing him with my mouse while the other hand rests firmly on my Gin&Tonic
LiquidHerO? See if I can cannon rush his ass and win with only six probes because I forgot to build more while microing my cannons (yes, I micro my cannons when I'm drunk).
And you should only be matched against other drunk players.
In fact, it should be called drunk ladder and undrunk ladder. Just to be sure everybody is on the same page.
We already have a drunk ladder. It's called bronze.
I've seen guys go for a Forge Fast Expand, except it's so retarded I've taken to calling it a Forge Fast Stupid. They make a forge, and then click on a probe, blindfold themselves and click randomly on the command card to decide their tech, which they crowd, along with all their buildings and about a dozen cannons on the top of the high-ground ramp.
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I thought unranked was supposed to have a separate MMR? (maybe based on normal MMR to have a starting place?)
But it HAS to be affected by the games you play? How else are you going to meet appropriate opponents?
Ps. Im talking how it should be. I have no idea how it is.
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ah that sucks I was hoping that unranked ladder would let you set parameters that would allow you to play certain matchup and maps. I know we have custom games but you can't name your maps like in BW also it can takes years to find matches for say GSL whirlwind or a map like that. Filled with disappointment thanks for the update Plexa.
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United States12235 Posts
I have an update about how unranked MMR works (or will work):
- Unranked MMR is a separate MMR. Both your ranked and your unranked MMR uses whatever previously-established MMR value is available. Presumably, this means that during a season roll, if you haven't played any ranked matches but you have played unranked matches, your ranked MMR inherits your current unranked MMR. Whichever mode you play first, that's what the other's starting value will be.
- Players queued for unranked matches can potentially be matched against ranked-queued players. After the match, the ranked player's ranked MMR will change and the unranked player's unranked MMR will change.
- Again, to reemphasize: Unranked MMR and ranked MMR change independently.
Now, there are a couple of consequences of this:
- What's most likely to happen is because the two MMRs are independent, most players will probably have a "serious mode" MMR (ranked) and a "gimmick/troll" MMR (unranked).
- As long as ranked players can play against unranked players, this could muddy the actual skill level of low leagues like Bronze. If everyone uses their unranked MMR for monobattles or whatever, I don't think you'll get an accurate assessment of how "good" the average Bronze player is because it will vary wildly. If present-day Bronze players are complaining now about how many Bronze smurfs there are, expect those complaints to be much more frequent when HotS rolls out.
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I think that regardless of the potential exploits, it is obviously a great implementation. Coming back from a long break and not wanting to ladder because of fear of destroying your MMR is a pain.
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On October 18 2012 07:32 Excalibur_Z wrote:
I have an update about how unranked MMR works (or will work):
- Unranked MMR is a separate MMR. Both your ranked and your unranked MMR uses whatever previously-established MMR value is available. Presumably, this means that during a season roll, if you haven't played any ranked matches but you have played unranked matches, your ranked MMR inherits your current unranked MMR. Whichever mode you play first, that's what the other's starting value will be.
- Players queued for unranked matches can potentially be matched against ranked-queued players. After the match, the ranked player's ranked MMR will change and the unranked player's unranked MMR will change.
- Again, to reemphasize: Unranked MMR and ranked MMR change independently.
Now, there are a couple of consequences of this:
- What's most likely to happen is because the two MMRs are independent, most players will probably have a "serious mode" MMR (ranked) and a "gimmick/troll" MMR (unranked).
- As long as ranked players can play against unranked players, this could muddy the actual skill level of low leagues like Bronze. If everyone uses their unranked MMR for monobattles or whatever, I don't think you'll get an accurate assessment of how "good" the average Bronze player is because it will vary wildly. If present-day Bronze players are complaining now about how many Bronze smurfs there are, expect those complaints to be much more frequent when HotS rolls out.
Great points, but I think one of the reasons why we see alot of bronze smirfs in the first place is that people come back to SC2 after a break and their MMR causes them to get destroyed every game. Then what do they do? Intentionally rank themselves down and then begin to play serious to regain their skill.
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Are you sure this isn't just because the game is in beta and they want to test the unranked so that it works but since there are only a limited amount of players unless they match unranked and ranked together they you would never get any game unranked making the ques extremly long.
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EPT
