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On September 20 2012 11:51 Geos13 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 00:09 Acritter wrote:On September 19 2012 17:16 Geos13 wrote:
I find it interesting that you were trying to practice specific builds when you thought you were playing random non-mmr opponents. What was the point? If in the first game your build crushes a bronze level player and in the second game the build is crushed by a much better player then you, what have you learned? You might as well just practice the timings against an ai.
I think what is really being discussed is the purpose of unranked match finding. Blizzard seems to believe it is to protect players from having an emotional connection to their losses while still providing a fair challenge but some in the community feel it should be a random battle primarily for lols. I don't do this myself but can't you find random people to 1v1 on custom game maps? It's always been assumed that who you get matched with in unranked play is based on your MMR. What was NOT expected is that the unranked play CHANGES your MMR. This doesn't make sense. Many peope(I'm guessing the majority of people) will only play unranked matches. If unranked games do not change your MMR then within the first month of gaming their will be tens of thousands of gamers playing well outside of whatever MMR they happened to start with. If the ranked and unranked pools are combined then this will absolutely destroy the competitiveness of the ranked ladder. If the pools are not mixed then unranked players will still not be being matched up with opponents based on their MMR even if they themselves are still playing ranked.
Okay. Let's get into the head of, say, a Gold league player. Right on average. So this Goldie is completely unconfident in his skills as a player. He loses half of the time, and gets really down about it because, well, that's how people are. So he goes into unranked games so that he doesn't have to get stressed out about losing ladder points. After playing for a while, he gets better. Let's say he starts winning 70% of his matches. At this point, our imaginary hero is getting pretty pumped. He starts thinking, "Damn! I've really improved! I'm ready to go back to ladder!" Back on ranked matchmaking, he quickly gets back up to the 50% winrate level, and then starts getting down about it again. So this champion of justice starts playing unranked again, possibly imagining it as "I'm going to play unranked until I stop going on this losing streak." The cycle continues. Players play unranked because they're unconfident in their abilities and don't want to hurt their ladder ranking. After playing enough unranked, they will improve and gain confidence in their abilities again. Then they go back to ladder and play until they get up to a high enough level of play that they lose confidence again. Thus, players who end up outside their appropriate MMR will quickly be drawn back into the fold.
And you're right in that ranked players should only be matched against ranked and unranked against unranked. But the same MMR should be used throughout.
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On September 20 2012 14:08 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 11:51 Geos13 wrote:On September 20 2012 00:09 Acritter wrote:On September 19 2012 17:16 Geos13 wrote:
I find it interesting that you were trying to practice specific builds when you thought you were playing random non-mmr opponents. What was the point? If in the first game your build crushes a bronze level player and in the second game the build is crushed by a much better player then you, what have you learned? You might as well just practice the timings against an ai.
I think what is really being discussed is the purpose of unranked match finding. Blizzard seems to believe it is to protect players from having an emotional connection to their losses while still providing a fair challenge but some in the community feel it should be a random battle primarily for lols. I don't do this myself but can't you find random people to 1v1 on custom game maps? It's always been assumed that who you get matched with in unranked play is based on your MMR. What was NOT expected is that the unranked play CHANGES your MMR. This doesn't make sense. Many peope(I'm guessing the majority of people) will only play unranked matches. If unranked games do not change your MMR then within the first month of gaming their will be tens of thousands of gamers playing well outside of whatever MMR they happened to start with. If the ranked and unranked pools are combined then this will absolutely destroy the competitiveness of the ranked ladder. If the pools are not mixed then unranked players will still not be being matched up with opponents based on their MMR even if they themselves are still playing ranked. Okay. Let's get into the head of, say, a Gold league player. Right on average. So this Goldie is completely unconfident in his skills as a player. He loses half of the time, and gets really down about it because, well, that's how people are. So he goes into unranked games so that he doesn't have to get stressed out about losing ladder points. After playing for a while, he gets better. Let's say he starts winning 70% of his matches. At this point, our imaginary hero is getting pretty pumped. He starts thinking, "Damn! I've really improved! I'm ready to go back to ladder!" Back on ranked matchmaking, he quickly gets back up to the 50% winrate level, and then starts getting down about it again. So this champion of justice starts playing unranked again, possibly imagining it as "I'm going to play unranked until I stop going on this losing streak." The cycle continues. Players play unranked because they're unconfident in their abilities and don't want to hurt their ladder ranking. After playing enough unranked, they will improve and gain confidence in their abilities again. Then they go back to ladder and play until they get up to a high enough level of play that they lose confidence again. Thus, players who end up outside their appropriate MMR will quickly be drawn back into the fold.
You have outlined the ideal scenario but I don't believe that is in reality what would occur for most people. Even if most gamers play the way you describe, undoubtedly not all will and even a sizable percentage playing only unranked would have negative ramifications. However Blizzard will be able to see how it plays out and decide how to proceed based on the data so I guess it's not worth arguing about.
And you're right in that ranked players should only be matched against ranked and unranked against unranked.
Agreed although it will be sad to see the community fractured.
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The way it is right now, Unranked feels like something designed to remove ladder anxiety that will surely promote all types of retarded behavior from players because they don't mind loosing.
IMO unranked should be mainly a practice tool and it could even be called that way.
Here's what it could look like:
PRACTICE GAME OPTIONS:
Your race:
_ Protoss
_ Terran
V Zerg
Opp. race:
_ Protoss
V Terran
_ Zerg
Opp league:
_ Bronze
V Silver
V Gold
_ Platinum
(etc)
And then you get paired with someone with compatible options.
This would solve the frustrating aspects about current custom for the purpose of practicing.
Another option is to remove Opp. league choice and simply match using ladder MMR.
What's the need for unranked MMR anyway, which only complicates things?
OH, and I hope that unranked vs ranked is only in beta. That's outrageous.
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I don't think unranked matches should change your MMR at all tbh if they do then what's the point of ladder? points? ladder points are worthless, everyone knows that ladder anxiety is about being afraid of tanking your MMR. So base unranked matches on your current MMR and make sure they do not change that MMR in any way, and i'm happy.
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I have seen this kind of discussion at least four times already, but there really is no way out. There are just these options:
a) unranked play does not effect your MMR: bad for off-racing, because you always play the same caliber of players as you would normally
b) unranked play does effect your MMR: bad for off-racing, because it is basically the same as ranked.
c) unranked play does neither effect nor use your MMR: bad for anything, just glorified custom games with an easier way to get them.
d) unranked play has its own MMR: the best you could wish for, but equivalent to having another account, thus highly unlikely of Blizzard to do (also, alloeing you to just have another account is practically easier).
So the only think that unrakned play really sovles is the irrational care about ladder points that some people have, but I would like to hope that even the average TL user knows better.
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Well it doesn't seem like something that would help you try another race and completely switch builds. If your MMR will be same/static as in ladder, you will just lose more if you do something new.
They should make it good for trying new race/build. I don't care about points, but I don't like to lose 20 games in row, because I want to do something new.
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What surprises me is Blizzard's refusal to show mmr to cater to "casuals", yet the most "casual" game out there, LoL, does not have hidden MMR. Hopefully with the introduction of unranked matchmaking, they can show mmr for ranked.
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a) unranked play does not effect your MMR: bad for off-racing, because you always play the same caliber of players as you would normally
My idea of choosing opponent's race and league helps off-racing as well.
You can choose to play 1 league under your current one.
You can also practice your off-race one MU at the time, allowing much better results than if you play against all opponents.
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Unranked is for playing drunk. And you don't care who's against you when you're drunk.
Bronzie? Lol at me crushing him with my mouse while the other hand rests firmly on my Gin&Tonic
LiquidHerO? See if I can cannon rush his ass and win with only six probes because I forgot to build more while microing my cannons (yes, I micro my cannons when I'm drunk).
And you should only be matched against other drunk players.
In fact, it should be called drunk ladder and undrunk ladder. Just to be sure everybody is on the same page.
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On September 20 2012 23:03 ant-1 wrote:
Unranked is for playing drunk. And you don't care who's against you when you're drunk.
Bronzie? Lol at me crushing him with my mouse while the other hand rests firmly on my Gin&Tonic
LiquidHerO? See if I can cannon rush his ass and win with only six probes because I forgot to build more while microing my cannons (yes, I micro my cannons when I'm drunk).
And you should only be matched against other drunk players.
In fact, it should be called drunk ladder and undrunk ladder. Just to be sure everybody is on the same page.
We already have a drunk ladder. It's called bronze.
I've seen guys go for a Forge Fast Expand, except it's so retarded I've taken to calling it a Forge Fast Stupid. They make a forge, and then click on a probe, blindfold themselves and click randomly on the command card to decide their tech, which they crowd, along with all their buildings and about a dozen cannons on the top of the high-ground ramp.
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I thought unranked was supposed to have a separate MMR? (maybe based on normal MMR to have a starting place?)
But it HAS to be affected by the games you play? How else are you going to meet appropriate opponents?
Ps. Im talking how it should be. I have no idea how it is.
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ah that sucks I was hoping that unranked ladder would let you set parameters that would allow you to play certain matchup and maps. I know we have custom games but you can't name your maps like in BW also it can takes years to find matches for say GSL whirlwind or a map like that. Filled with disappointment thanks for the update Plexa.
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United States12235 Posts
I have an update about how unranked MMR works (or will work):
- Unranked MMR is a separate MMR. Both your ranked and your unranked MMR uses whatever previously-established MMR value is available. Presumably, this means that during a season roll, if you haven't played any ranked matches but you have played unranked matches, your ranked MMR inherits your current unranked MMR. Whichever mode you play first, that's what the other's starting value will be.
- Players queued for unranked matches can potentially be matched against ranked-queued players. After the match, the ranked player's ranked MMR will change and the unranked player's unranked MMR will change.
- Again, to reemphasize: Unranked MMR and ranked MMR change independently.
Now, there are a couple of consequences of this:
- What's most likely to happen is because the two MMRs are independent, most players will probably have a "serious mode" MMR (ranked) and a "gimmick/troll" MMR (unranked).
- As long as ranked players can play against unranked players, this could muddy the actual skill level of low leagues like Bronze. If everyone uses their unranked MMR for monobattles or whatever, I don't think you'll get an accurate assessment of how "good" the average Bronze player is because it will vary wildly. If present-day Bronze players are complaining now about how many Bronze smurfs there are, expect those complaints to be much more frequent when HotS rolls out.
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I think that regardless of the potential exploits, it is obviously a great implementation. Coming back from a long break and not wanting to ladder because of fear of destroying your MMR is a pain.
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On October 18 2012 07:32 Excalibur_Z wrote:
I have an update about how unranked MMR works (or will work):
- Unranked MMR is a separate MMR. Both your ranked and your unranked MMR uses whatever previously-established MMR value is available. Presumably, this means that during a season roll, if you haven't played any ranked matches but you have played unranked matches, your ranked MMR inherits your current unranked MMR. Whichever mode you play first, that's what the other's starting value will be.
- Players queued for unranked matches can potentially be matched against ranked-queued players. After the match, the ranked player's ranked MMR will change and the unranked player's unranked MMR will change.
- Again, to reemphasize: Unranked MMR and ranked MMR change independently.
Now, there are a couple of consequences of this:
- What's most likely to happen is because the two MMRs are independent, most players will probably have a "serious mode" MMR (ranked) and a "gimmick/troll" MMR (unranked).
- As long as ranked players can play against unranked players, this could muddy the actual skill level of low leagues like Bronze. If everyone uses their unranked MMR for monobattles or whatever, I don't think you'll get an accurate assessment of how "good" the average Bronze player is because it will vary wildly. If present-day Bronze players are complaining now about how many Bronze smurfs there are, expect those complaints to be much more frequent when HotS rolls out.
Great points, but I think one of the reasons why we see alot of bronze smirfs in the first place is that people come back to SC2 after a break and their MMR causes them to get destroyed every game. Then what do they do? Intentionally rank themselves down and then begin to play serious to regain their skill.
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Are you sure this isn't just because the game is in beta and they want to test the unranked so that it works but since there are only a limited amount of players unless they match unranked and ranked together they you would never get any game unranked making the ques extremly long.
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EPT
