Now tell me he didnt play dirty here. Go on amuse me.
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Edit: nvm, you can just click on it. Yes, I will argue that Max didn't play dirty there. He was ahead into the corner (altough an argument could be made that he braked later to get himself there), and he was in the middle of the track when they collided. It's one of the least egregious defences we've seen this season. You can't possible be arguing that Max tried to crash Lewis out on purpose there? There were still several car widths when they touched.
Its the same situation like in Brazil, he made it even worse by turning right in a left corner when they were both out of the track already. That's dirty no matter how you wanna swing it. Im not saying he wanted to crash him, but turning right slightly 15s on the video was the dirty move.
On December 06 2021 04:59 Penev wrote: No one is saying Hamilton drove into Verstappen on purpose but that doesn't mean it isn't an offence that can't be penalized. Also Hamilton didn't exactly drove a whole clean race himself this one, care to comment on that as well?
Can we stop using Tu quoque fallacies when we argue about certain things? Mistakes by Hamilton dont excuse mistakes of Verstappen and vice versa. Im not gonna argue if Hamilton drove a clean race, but I'd argue that those few tricks he did during the red flags are nothing compared to reckless driving by Verstappen.
Brazil was worse, although that one also happened because Max outbraked himself.
Again, are we going to argue that they shouldn't be allowed to even try to defend their position? Because that is the only alternative here. Either you allow them to try, and accept that sometimes they outbrake themselves, and then punish them accordingly, or you don't allow them to even try. We are talking about the championship here. If you thought for a nanosecond that Max wasn't going to try to defend his position, you are just being incredibly naïve. The fact that he was unsuccessful is fine, it's part of racing. He was told to give the position back, and that's that. Whatever else you're trying to argue is irrelevant.
Max turned right after he was tagged by Lewis. What did you want him to do? Not try to correct his slide? Just spin around completely? Because that was the only other outcome here.
The Tu quoque is actually valid in a lot of these cases. People are being very picky on what they're arguing here, pointing out the fact that other things happened as well isn't a Tu quoque. This isn't as much a "both sides" argument, as it's "Why the heck are you ignoring things to argue your cause?".
If you want to argue that one corner, fine, argue that one corner. If you want to slam Max on how aggressive and dirty he is, then you don't get to ignore Lewis being a dirty driver himself.
Don't get so caught up in fallacies you end up forgetting about the fallacy fallacy
That was embarrassing. Masi needs to be gone before the next season starts. That message between him and Mercedes where it became obvious that he didn't communicate to Mercedes properly or in time that Verstappen was to give Hamilton the position, causing what could have been a disaster of a collision, was completely unacceptable. He's supposed to be in charge of the race and there was a period of 5-10 laps where it became completely unclear what was supposed to be happening. It appeared as if Masi lost control of the race entirely, which should never ever happen in a sport this dangerous. Neither Lewis nor Max were to blame for that collision incident on the start straight. The fault of that incident is 100% on the race director. One side was told what to do while the other was delayed in being told, which caused the whole issue.
Let's not forget the race director leaving debris on track and it taking Alonso saying point blank over the radio that the track is too dangerous to race on before anything was done about the state of the track. There should not be delays in making decisions that have direct safety implications. It was like Baku all over again. If the track is unsafe then you immediately either put out double waved yellows, a safety car, or red flag it. Don't let the race continue for several laps while you decide what to do.
Between what happened here, in the last few races, in Austria, in Belgium, in Bahrain, and especially in Baku (what happened in Baku alone should have cost Masi his job), it's become abundantly clear that the race director cannot properly do his job. He's had multiple years now to get up to speed as race director and he's only become worse as time goes on. His interpretation of how rules work changes from weekend to weekend and whenever pushed on why he decides something he usually ends up either saying "because I say so" or doesn't answer at all. There's no transparency at all. That's not acceptable in a sport that supposed to be taken seriously.
Max turned right after he was tagged by Lewis. What did you want him to do? Not try to correct his slide? Just spin around completely? Because that was the only other outcome here.
At 44s in to that video, it shows it from an angle which if it isnt deceiving me, I dont see Lewis tagging Max. Could be wrong though, but it doesnt look like they made contact. Im sure we will get more info in the coming days. And yes without elaborating on the rest of your post, I was and still am arguing about that specific corner, so I dont see the point of replying to that, especially since it wasnt even addressed at you.
Max turned right after he was tagged by Lewis. What did you want him to do? Not try to correct his slide? Just spin around completely? Because that was the only other outcome here.
At 44s in to that video, it shows it from an angle which if it isnt deceiving me, I dont see Lewis tagging Max. Could be wrong though, but it doesnt look like they made contact. Im sure we will get more info in the coming days. And yes without elaborating on the rest of your post, I was and still am arguing about that specific corner, so I dont see the point of replying to that, especially since it wasnt even addressed at you.
EDIT at 58s it shows clearly there is no tag.
I gave a similar reply as Excludos did and I didn't mention any tagging, just that if Max didn't stear to the right he would've spun. You could have chosen to comment on that (as well). The point is he didn't do it to be "dirty".
Max turned right after he was tagged by Lewis. What did you want him to do? Not try to correct his slide? Just spin around completely? Because that was the only other outcome here.
At 44s in to that video, it shows it from an angle which if it isnt deceiving me, I dont see Lewis tagging Max. Could be wrong though, but it doesnt look like they made contact. Im sure we will get more info in the coming days. And yes without elaborating on the rest of your post, I was and still am arguing about that specific corner, so I dont see the point of replying to that, especially since it wasnt even addressed at you.
EDIT at 58s it shows clearly there is no tag.
They touch very clearly at 54s. There's no reason why Max's back would slide out on its own if they didn't touch there
Max turned right after he was tagged by Lewis. What did you want him to do? Not try to correct his slide? Just spin around completely? Because that was the only other outcome here.
At 44s in to that video, it shows it from an angle which if it isnt deceiving me, I dont see Lewis tagging Max. Could be wrong though, but it doesnt look like they made contact. Im sure we will get more info in the coming days. And yes without elaborating on the rest of your post, I was and still am arguing about that specific corner, so I dont see the point of replying to that, especially since it wasnt even addressed at you.
EDIT at 58s it shows clearly there is no tag.
They touch very clearly at 54s. There's no reason why Max's back would slide out on its own if they didn't touch there
No they don't. Lewis avoids Max here and Max is just drifting and setting the car straight.
I think FIA is to blame mostly for this whole controversy. There was no way for Max to make that corner and the call to give that position back (probably even a penalty is justified here) should have come way sooner and to both teams. If Hamilton really didn't get the call in time this is a disaster on its own.
Also, Lewis should have gotten a penalty for leaving way to much space to the car in front on the warmup laps for the restarts. There are clear rules for that and Max complaint was right here. Pretty much cost him the restart.
Also, after Max had or hadnt tried to give the position back, there was just nothing for a couple of laps where both drivers went full throttle and the FIA was silent. WTF was that?
Last but not least, giving Tsunoda a 5s penalty for yeeting Vettel of the track is also a joke.
Max turned right after he was tagged by Lewis. What did you want him to do? Not try to correct his slide? Just spin around completely? Because that was the only other outcome here.
At 44s in to that video, it shows it from an angle which if it isnt deceiving me, I dont see Lewis tagging Max. Could be wrong though, but it doesnt look like they made contact. Im sure we will get more info in the coming days. And yes without elaborating on the rest of your post, I was and still am arguing about that specific corner, so I dont see the point of replying to that, especially since it wasnt even addressed at you.
EDIT at 58s it shows clearly there is no tag.
They touch very clearly at 54s. There's no reason why Max's back would slide out on its own if they didn't touch there
No they don't. Lewis avoids Max here and Max is just drifting and setting the car straight.
I think FIA is to blame mostly for this whole controversy. There was no way for Max to make that corner and the call to give that position back (probably even a penalty is justified here) should have come way sooner and to both teams. If Hamilton really didn't get the call in time this is a disaster on its own.
Also, Lewis should have gotten a penalty for leaving way to much space to the car in front on the warmup laps for the restarts. There are clear rules for that and Max complaint was right here. Pretty much cost him the restart.
Also, after Max had or hadnt tried to give the position back, there was just nothing for a couple of laps where both drivers went full throttle and the FIA was silent. WTF was that?
Last but not least, giving Tsunoda a 5s penalty for yeeting Vettel of the track is also a joke.
So we're here now? At the point where you can literally see two things collide, and pretend it's fake news? Max's back wheel collided with Hamilton's barge board. You can see the two objects touching, and you can see Max's rear wheel change trajectory as they do. You can see it clearly from just about every camera angle. No amount of gaslighting changes that
Onto a different topic: Man, so much happened this race that we aren't even talking about. Hamilton very intentionally running Max wide (by literally not even attempting to make the corner, he just went straight forward) after their collision, Hamilton not keeping close distance in the outlap, Bottas slowing down under SC, some illegal practice starts in the pits by Max and a couple of others, Kimi being Kimi.
Honestly, let's just DQ Merc and RB and crown Ocon the winner at this point
Max got another 10 sec penalty because Hamilton ran into him. What is even the point any more? FIA has already crowned their winner, and stopped caring about reality to fit their narrative
Thoroughly disgusted by the blatant partisanship on display here
On December 06 2021 08:17 Excludos wrote: Max got another 10 sec penalty because Hamilton ran into him. What is even the point any more? FIA has already crowned their winner, and stopped caring about reality to fit their narrative
Thoroughly disgusted by the blatant partisanship on display here
It's bizarre isn't it? In these times of conspiracy theories I'd rather not point this out but it just really seems Mercedes/Hamilton are treated a bit differently than others in this sport.
Max was penalised because he caused it, he was moving around and just before the contact braked hard. I said before if anyone was going to get a penalty its Max, you should look at it again before calling out conspiracies.
On December 06 2021 09:10 Aristodemus wrote: Max was penalised because he caused it, he was moving around and just before the contact braked hard. I said before if anyone was going to get a penalty its Max, you should look at it again before calling out conspiracies.
Hamilton could've easily passed him but simultaneously didn't know he could pass and didn't want to because he didn't want to cross the drs line first. Verstappen made 2 attempts to let Hamilton pass (one succeeded) got a 5 sec penalty AND a 10 sec penalty while Hamilton got nothing. Oh, wait he did get an angry warning for dangerous driving.
What exactly should Lewis have been given a penalty for?
I get that most of you guys are Max fans but his driving today was petulant at best, that penalty for the brake test was irrelevant too, its still a single race shootout.
On December 06 2021 09:10 Aristodemus wrote: Max was penalised because he caused it, he was moving around and just before the contact braked hard. I said before if anyone was going to get a penalty its Max, you should look at it again before calling out conspiracies.
We've all looked at it numerous times. This is only in your head. There were plenty of space on either side of Max, and he wasn't weaving when Hamilton hit him from the back. Max wanted to let Hamilton by there, so he could pass him on the following straight. Hamilton simply goofed, and Max got a penalty for it. Without an "I love Lewis" tint on the glasses you should be able to figure that a formula one driver should be capable of passing another driver who is slowing down, without panicking and mowing into the back of him.
It wasn't like he was braking suddenly either. He slowed down for quite a while before Hamilton crashed into him. How does anyone become 7 times world champion if you can't even tap on the brakes or turn your steering wheel a little bit when the car ahead slows down? The simple truth is Hamilton was caught off guard, and froze. He didn't know what Max was up to, and couldn't decide how to react until it was too late.
The unreasonable response to give Max the punishment for Lewis fuckup is so astronomical laughable, it's not exactly wild to call it partisan. Lewis was behaving as terrible as Max this race, yet one driver gets multiple penalties, and the other gets some "don't do that again please". They could have at least attempted to hide it by giving Hamilton a 5s penalty for one of his grievances, to pretend that they're being objective. It's not like it would have mattered in the standings anyways. Instead they're just full on "Fuck y'all, Lewis is our champion" mode. How anyone I even attempting to defend the atrocity we're currently witnessing is beyond me
On December 06 2021 09:31 Aristodemus wrote: What exactly should Lewis have been given a penalty for?
I get that most of you guys are Max fans but his driving today was petulant at best, that penalty for the brake test was irrelevant too, its still a single race shootout.
How about running into the back of Max?
How about trying to ram Max off road a couple of laps later? Lewis didn't even attempt to make the corner, he's practically going straight forward to torpedo Max out of the track. It's not even being investigated ffs. If Max had done the same, it would be grid penalties for next weekend by now.
You might be surprised by this, by how I'm defending Max, but I'm not actually a huge fan of his. I'd rather he win the championship for sure, but if this season had been a resemblance of fair fight, I'd be ok with Lewis as well. But this season has been so ridiculous I don't even know where to begin on describing just how much Lewis doesn't deserve this. From the multiple time he and Bottas crashed Verstappen out to DNFs, his incredible luck at every corner, his incessant whining at every second of every race even when things are going his way let alone when it isn't, his many double standards, and FIAs many double standards.
If all was right, Verstappen should have ran away with the WDC several races ago. Sure, it's fun that the championship is being fought all the way I to the last race, but my god does Lewis not deserve it this year.
First of all, please stop assuming that everything someone says that doesn't agree with your opinion can only mean they didn't watch thoroughly or are just because of fandom, thanks. I have stated in this thread that I agreed with the decision after the first restart (to put Verstappen behind Hamilton) for instance. Hamilton did several things this race that were dodgy too but he didn't receive a single penalty. He blatantly lies about not knowing he could overtake because he later admits he didn't want to because he didn't want to cross the drs line as the first car. The whole incident wouldn't have occurred if he just immediately passed Verstappen. He, very dangerously, pushed Verstappen of the track which prompted an angry response from Masi but no penalty for some reason. There were multiple incidents with Hamilton in free practice resulting in a fine but nothing else. I'm not just talking about the one incident it's just weird, in general, that Hamilton get treated differently than others.
EPT
