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On December 06 2021 07:27 Excludos wrote:
So we're here now? At the point where you can literally see two things collide, and pretend it's fake news? Max's back wheel collided with Hamilton's barge board. You can see the two objects touching, and you can see Max's rear wheel change trajectory as they do. You can see it clearly from just about every camera angle. No amount of gaslighting changes that
Cmon man, just look at the slow motion at the very end of the video, there is no contact. Geez
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https://streamja.com/wkvbo
How can anyone look at this and claim Lewis didn't have time to brake or pass? Max slowed for a solid 5 second before Lewis just slowly crept up on him and trundled into his back. What in the actual fuck?
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On December 06 2021 09:59 FreakyDroid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2021 07:27 Excludos wrote:
So we're here now? At the point where you can literally see two things collide, and pretend it's fake news? Max's back wheel collided with Hamilton's barge board. You can see the two objects touching, and you can see Max's rear wheel change trajectory as they do. You can see it clearly from just about every camera angle. No amount of gaslighting changes that
Cmon man, just look at the slow motion at the very end of the video, there is no contact. Geez
How about you look at the slow motion before the very end, where they actually touch? They touch at 54s in that video. You can see them making contact, you can see the tire wobbling, and you can see Max back change trajectory. You can argue whether Max deserved to lose his position or not, I'm all ears about it, but I'm done entertaining your weird attempt at gaslighting "you're not seeing what you're seeing" thing that's going here.
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I'm not too bothered by the touching or not, I think Verstappen just braked too late, couldn't hold for the corner, blocking Hamilton and thus gaining an advantage. Doesn't matter if they touched imo. What I find strange is that in the brake test incident Hamilton isn't penalized but Verstappen is. He could've easily avoided it, lied about it but that's all ok I guess.
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Hamilton didn't pass because the DRS detection zone was coming up.
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On December 06 2021 10:05 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2021 09:59 FreakyDroid wrote:On December 06 2021 07:27 Excludos wrote:
So we're here now? At the point where you can literally see two things collide, and pretend it's fake news? Max's back wheel collided with Hamilton's barge board. You can see the two objects touching, and you can see Max's rear wheel change trajectory as they do. You can see it clearly from just about every camera angle. No amount of gaslighting changes that
Cmon man, just look at the slow motion at the very end of the video, there is no contact. Geez How about you look at the slow motion before the very end, where they actually touch? They touch at 54s in that video. You can see them making contact, you can see the tire wobbling, and you can see Max back change trajectory. You can argue whether Max deserved to lose his position or not, I'm all ears about it, but I'm done entertaining your weird attempt at gaslighting "you're not seeing what you're seeing" thing that's going here.
You're wrong and you're beating a dead horse. There is no mention of contact in post show, in the press conference or by the stewards report. Cut it out already. Its getting on the retarded side how you're arguing. This isnt my opinion is better than yours, you're not allowed to have an opinion here. They didn't have contact, end of story.
The only contact they had was when Max suddenly applied a sudden 2.4G breaking when Lewis slammed into him when he was ordered t give the position back,. That's also an official steward report.
Max kept dodging the question and trying to sweep it under the rug, lets forget about it, dont make headlines bla bla bla. His argument was basically It was fine in Brazil, dunno why I got a penalty here. He actually says that in the press conference lol
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Lol, you're wrong, Max getting a 10s penalty there is a joke. You can clearly hear Lewis gearing down before he decides overtaking there isn't a good spot...as if he's allowed to decide when the opportunity suits him best.
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stop with the copium people; Max fuked up.
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So ... in the spirit of the previous race (and the whole season overall), given we are now suddenly at BO1 - am I correct to understand, that theoretically, if Max collide with Louis and both are out of the last race - Max gets the championship?
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On December 06 2021 19:06 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:
So ... in the spirit of the previous race (and the whole season overall), given we are now suddenly at BO1 - am I correct to understand, that theoretically, if Max collide with Louis and both are out of the last race - Max gets the championship?
Yes
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Wow I think the Max fans might be watching something else entirely!
The reason he got a penalty is exactly what the stewards wrote, his moving around was "erratic" and his braking just as Lewis moved to go around him was "sudden and significant". This is what caused the incident, but also the FIA should have notified both teams at the same time or if it needs to be one first the trailing car should be told.
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FIA: we are giving car nr. 44 a 30 second penalty for reckless-
Mercedez: hey bro how would you like 50 million dollars?
FIA: ….
Mercedez: …..
FIA: 10 second penalty to car nr. 33 for causing a collision from in front of another car.
Red Bull: fuuuuuuuuu
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On December 06 2021 10:03 Excludos wrote:https://streamja.com/wkvboHow can anyone look at this and claim Lewis didn't have time to brake or pass? Max slowed for a solid 5 second before Lewis just slowly crept up on him and trundled into his back. What in the actual fuck?
Theoretically having time to brake or pass? Yeah sure, it should have been possible... Then again Hamilton did not know that Verstappen was supposed to let him pass... and I'm not sure how feasible overtaking there is in a normal situation given the upcoming left corner.
But I have to wonder why exactly Verstappen decided to move from the right side towards the center of the track when Hamilton was closing in. Allowing somebody to overtake by placing yourself in the middle of the track is rather "unusual" to say the least. Not to mention that the collision happened in lap 37 and Verstappen only let Hamilton pass in lap 42. This kinda makes one feel that maybe Verstappen wasn't too eager to let Hamilton pass.
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When it comes to the lap 42 incident when Max attempted to let Lewis pass him, its really ambiguous. Clearly there was miscommunication judging by Lewis' radio, Max was kinda wobbling in the middle of the track not giving a clear signal what he wanted to do and suddenly applied stronger breaking catching Lewis completely off guard, and on the other hand Lewis was hesitant to overtake because of the upcoming DRS zone not even knowing he was given free overtake on Max. I dont remember many of these types of scenarios occurring on the track, but after watching a few analysis on youtube from racing channels, it seems there are no rules for this scenario (could be wrong though). Many are suggesting that giving back the lead should be done inside a DRS zone and that imo makes the most sense. Giving it before a DRS zone is pointless.
Also FIA should imo first talk to the car behind than to the car on the front, which can prevent these incidents from happening again, that makes sense to me. In this case, they first let Max know about it while Lewis was left in the dark and the incident happened inbetween that moment when Max was attempting to give the lead back and Lewis had no idea why Max was slowing down.
Ultimately I would blame FIA for this and how they go about communicating to the drivers/teams. And they really need to rethink about having this circuit next year, without significant modifications, this is by far the most unsafe track to race on.
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Northern Ireland26644 Posts
As someone who would quite like to get properly back into F1 I’m finding all these rules and penalties and how they vary between races rather baffling and offputting
I remember a few huge controversial moments per season and some silliness (Schumacher memorably ‘serving’ a stop-go penalty on the last lap), but there seems to be something wonky every single race.
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On December 06 2021 19:06 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:
So ... in the spirit of the previous race (and the whole season overall), given we are now suddenly at BO1 - am I correct to understand, that theoretically, if Max collide with Louis and both are out of the last race - Max gets the championship?
Correct. Max has more first places than Lewis
On December 06 2021 20:20 Aristodemus wrote:
Wow I think the Max fans might be watching something else entirely!
The reason he got a penalty is exactly what the stewards wrote, his moving around was "erratic" and his braking just as Lewis moved to go around him was "sudden and significant". This is what caused the incident, but also the FIA should have notified both teams at the same time or if it needs to be one first the trailing car should be told.
It's funny how people are watching the exact same clips, and coming to radically different conclusions. Max is barely moving at all in any of the clips, and there's tons of space to his left. Lewis didn't move to go around him, he went straight into his back, when he had over 5 seconds to see the car ahead slow down, and not react to it. Likely Lewis either thought Max was up to something, and didn't want to take his bait, or he understood Max was fighting for the DRS line, and didn't want to give it to him. Either way, crashing into the back of him is a ridiculous response, and certainly not something Max should be penalised for.
I think we can all agree tho that the rules for letting people by should be changed. They're pretty vague atm, and claim you can't let someone by in such a way to benefit you. Instead there should be something like "You can't let someone pass and re-pass them within 3 corners".
Heck, most of the rules in the rulebook should become less vague. There's way too much "I think, maybe, possibly" at the moment
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On December 06 2021 21:24 FreakyDroid wrote:
When it comes to the lap 42 incident when Max attempted to let Lewis pass him, its really ambiguous. Clearly there was miscommunication judging by Lewis' radio, Max was kinda wobbling in the middle of the track not giving a clear signal what he wanted to do and suddenly applied stronger breaking catching Lewis completely off guard, and on the other hand Lewis was hesitant to overtake because of the upcoming DRS zone not even knowing he was given free overtake on Max. I dont remember many of these types of scenarios occurring on the track, but after watching a few analysis on youtube from racing channels, it seems there are no rules for this scenario (could be wrong though). Many are suggesting that giving back the lead should be done inside a DRS zone and that imo makes the most sense. Giving it before a DRS zone is pointless.
Also FIA should imo first talk to the car behind than to the car on the front, which can prevent these incidents from happening again, that makes sense to me. In this case, they first let Max know about it while Lewis was left in the dark and the incident happened inbetween that moment when Max was attempting to give the lead back and Lewis had no idea why Max was slowing down.
Ultimately I would blame FIA for this and how they go about communicating to the drivers/teams. And they really need to rethink about having this circuit next year, without significant modifications, this is by far the most unsafe track to race on.
I think your conclusion is the right one. FIA should've told both drivers at the same time or Hamilton first. In the end they put the drivers in a very awkward position and considering the speed they're driving, the pressure they're under etc. It's not strange it didn't end well.
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On December 06 2021 23:43 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2021 21:24 FreakyDroid wrote:
When it comes to the lap 42 incident when Max attempted to let Lewis pass him, its really ambiguous. Clearly there was miscommunication judging by Lewis' radio, Max was kinda wobbling in the middle of the track not giving a clear signal what he wanted to do and suddenly applied stronger breaking catching Lewis completely off guard, and on the other hand Lewis was hesitant to overtake because of the upcoming DRS zone not even knowing he was given free overtake on Max. I dont remember many of these types of scenarios occurring on the track, but after watching a few analysis on youtube from racing channels, it seems there are no rules for this scenario (could be wrong though). Many are suggesting that giving back the lead should be done inside a DRS zone and that imo makes the most sense. Giving it before a DRS zone is pointless.
Also FIA should imo first talk to the car behind than to the car on the front, which can prevent these incidents from happening again, that makes sense to me. In this case, they first let Max know about it while Lewis was left in the dark and the incident happened inbetween that moment when Max was attempting to give the lead back and Lewis had no idea why Max was slowing down.
Ultimately I would blame FIA for this and how they go about communicating to the drivers/teams. And they really need to rethink about having this circuit next year, without significant modifications, this is by far the most unsafe track to race on. I think your conclusion is the right one. FIA should've told both drivers at the same time or Hamilton first. In the end they put the drivers in a very awkward position and considering the speed they're driving, the pressure they're under etc. It's not strange it didn't end well.
I wouldn't mind something like the FIA races in Gran Turismo, where you have a certain section on the track (generally a straight) where, if you have a penalty, you are forced to slow down. Of course, that's a game, and has the benefit of things like ghosting. So it would have to be handled a bit difference in formula 1 to avoid massive crashed. But I think something similar could work out very nicely. Instead of this "You have to let him pass" nonsense, just give them a 0.5 second slowdown at the start of the straight, and the pass will happen naturally.
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On December 06 2021 21:42 WombaT wrote:
As someone who would quite like to get properly back into F1 I’m finding all these rules and penalties and how they vary between races rather baffling and offputting
I remember a few huge controversial moments per season and some silliness (Schumacher memorably ‘serving’ a stop-go penalty on the last lap), but there seems to be something wonky every single race.
A lot of it is because of the new race director. The old one, Charlie Whiting, was not always the most popular guy but at least he was consistent and would explain his thinking in why he did things. The new one (this Masi guy we keep talking about) does basically everything you should not do as a person running a sporting competition. He changes how rules are going to be interpreted from weekend to weekend, at times completely ignores rules, and has not put his foot down when he's needed to, causing some of the teams (especially Red Bull and Mercedes) to walk all over him. He tries to act like an authoritarian but nobody respects him so he just comes off as being completely out of his depths. There's been several cases this year where Masi has essentially lost control of the race during dangerous situations then afterward has lashed out at drivers and teams when ultimately he was the one that caused the problem.
Even more concerning though is that he doesn't seem to be able to admit publicly when he made a mistake. Whenever he's confronted about problems in races he either shuts down questions about what could be improved or says that things are good enough. This is especially bad because several drivers have brought up safety concerns about various circuits this year (Spa, Baku, and this Saudi track, for example) and Masi's response has universally been "it passed certification so it's fine", which completely ignores the actual topic at hand. He prefers to act reactively rather than proactively, which is very dangerous in a sport like F1.
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I agree with you, but I think his intentions are good, at least when it comes to "letting them race" thing. However this weekend we saw that this close to the end of the championship and with such a close difference between Max and Lewis in points, both of them were taking advantage of these loose rules, so the potential for having a disaster is very high. On the upcoming race imo, all incidents should be panelized swiftly and strictly, no excuses for either of them or any other driver for that matter. Only way to make this as fair a fight as possible. I know many fans like the drama, but this is a dangerous sport and people could die. Letting them race is fine, as long as safety comes first.
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EPT
