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On November 15 2022 10:15 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2022 06:15 Aristodemus wrote:
I highly doubt that Perez crashed intentionally. I was doubtful as well, but then I found this link with telemetry. I can pull the data later myself to confirm(can get throttle data from FastF1), but as far as I can tell he definitely floored it in the middle of Portier. Perez, and everybody else on the grid are far too good to do it accidentally. The problem with doing it at Portier is that it's such a slow corner due to the preceding corner that even if you oversped by 5kph (hard to go much more because the sequence out of hairpin is so slow), you should be able to just delay throttle and still make it around, you'll just be slow going into the tunnel. Any entry mistake at this speed should easily be correctable at the F1 skill level. Max would undoubtedly have looked at telemetry from the crash and seen the throttle application. It's just not something you do unintentionally. Swimming pool would've been the corner to "accidentally" clip something, but it comes with serious consequences, can potentially be a pitlane start, and you can't just shunt the corner, you have to clip the corner somewhere between -0.1" and maybe -1" at 200kph. Any more and it looks obvious that you've hit it intentionally(literally every driver comes within -0.1" to 3" of the barrier during qualifying depending on skill), any less and it makes for good TV, but probably doesn't end the car. Link below with the telemetry. https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/yugl3l/tomás_slafer_eng_tl_the_image_checo_does_floor/
Something to note about telemetry is that you can very easily blind yourself to it if you go in looking for a result. It very often might not mean what you think it means. The only one who can truly tell you the surrounding facts about why the telemetry looks like it does is the driver itself (Hence also why FIA is so keen on summoning drivers to the stewards whenever something needs to be explained. The data just doesn't always tell the whole story)
A couple of things I noticed: Perez is going nearly 10km/h slower into the corner when he blips the throttle, than the minimum speed of his previous fast lap. He never stops slowing down, all the way into the wall. He blips the throttle once, but the speed doesn't increase, and instead steadily descends into zero. These are all the hallmarks of understeering into the corner, attempting to blip the throttle to induce oversteer, but being too late and slamming into the wall instead.
It would be insanely sloppy from someone as good as Perez to do something as obvious as slamming the throttle to crash, when he knows the telemetry is open for both the FIA and the world to examine.
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On November 15 2022 21:25 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2022 10:15 Amui wrote:On November 15 2022 06:15 Aristodemus wrote:
I highly doubt that Perez crashed intentionally. I was doubtful as well, but then I found this link with telemetry. I can pull the data later myself to confirm(can get throttle data from FastF1), but as far as I can tell he definitely floored it in the middle of Portier. Perez, and everybody else on the grid are far too good to do it accidentally. The problem with doing it at Portier is that it's such a slow corner due to the preceding corner that even if you oversped by 5kph (hard to go much more because the sequence out of hairpin is so slow), you should be able to just delay throttle and still make it around, you'll just be slow going into the tunnel. Any entry mistake at this speed should easily be correctable at the F1 skill level. Max would undoubtedly have looked at telemetry from the crash and seen the throttle application. It's just not something you do unintentionally. Swimming pool would've been the corner to "accidentally" clip something, but it comes with serious consequences, can potentially be a pitlane start, and you can't just shunt the corner, you have to clip the corner somewhere between -0.1" and maybe -1" at 200kph. Any more and it looks obvious that you've hit it intentionally(literally every driver comes within -0.1" to 3" of the barrier during qualifying depending on skill), any less and it makes for good TV, but probably doesn't end the car. Link below with the telemetry. https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/yugl3l/tomás_slafer_eng_tl_the_image_checo_does_floor/ Something to note about telemetry is that you can very easily blind yourself to it if you go in looking for a result. It very often might not mean what you think it means. The only one who can truly tell you the surrounding facts about why the telemetry looks like it does is the driver itself (Hence also why FIA is so keen on summoning drivers to the stewards whenever something needs to be explained. The data just doesn't always tell the whole story) A couple of things I noticed: Perez is going nearly 10km/h slower into the corner when he blips the throttle, than the minimum speed of his previous fast lap. He never stops slowing down, all the way into the wall. He blips the throttle once, but the speed doesn't increase, and instead steadily descends into zero. These are all the hallmarks of understeering into the corner, attempting to blip the throttle to induce oversteer, but being too late and slamming into the wall instead. It would be insanely sloppy from someone as good as Perez to do something as obvious as slamming the throttle to crash, when he knows the telemetry is open for both the FIA and the world to examine.
To be clear, Perez oversteered into the wall. If he understeered, he would go straight into it rather than spinning around. The reason his speed continues to drop despite throttle is that the tires will break traction instantly if he floors it at that speed(yay for electric motors), and the car will continue to slow since it's going sideways.
The only other reason he would drop the rear on entry (watch his hands, they countersteer well before the apex) is if the brake bias was rearwards and he pushed it too hard, but at that point in the corner he should be blending off it to have the car turn.
The team with all their telemetry will 100% be able to tell if it was intentional as they have additional telemetry like brake pressure, steering angle and brake bias as well as timestamps on all the data, but alas, that is never going to come out.
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On November 16 2022 03:27 Amui wrote:
To be clear, Perez oversteered into the wall. If he understeered, he would go straight into it rather than spinning around.
I've already stated this in the comment you are replying to:
On November 15 2022 21:25 Excludos wrote:
These are all the hallmarks of understeering into the corner, attempting to blip the throttle to induce oversteer, but being too late and slamming into the wall instead..
If I explained it badly, I meant that he might have blipped the throttle to change the understeer into oversteer, but made it too late to catch it and spun himself into the wall instead. But looking at the actual video of the accident, the oversteer happens at the entry of the corner, not the exit. So possibly I'm completely wrong. I think my main point was that we don't necessarily know based on just telemetry alone, but I'm also incredibly sleep deprived right now. So who knows wtf I'm talking about?
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On November 16 2022 03:42 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2022 03:27 Amui wrote:
To be clear, Perez oversteered into the wall. If he understeered, he would go straight into it rather than spinning around. I've already stated this in the comment you are replying to: Show nested quote +On November 15 2022 21:25 Excludos wrote:
These are all the hallmarks of understeering into the corner, attempting to blip the throttle to induce oversteer, but being too late and slamming into the wall instead.. If I explained it badly, I meant that he might have blipped the throttle to change the understeer into oversteer, but made it too late to catch it and spun himself into the wall instead. But looking at the actual video of the accident, the oversteer happens at the entry of the corner, not the exit. So possibly I'm completely wrong. I think my main point was that we don't necessarily know based on just telemetry alone, but I'm also incredibly sleep deprived right now. So who knows wtf I'm talking about?
Yeah I think I misread your post. It's definitely hard to know for sure without timestamps, but it'd be super easy for RB to know if it was intentional or not. Palmer in his analysis for example thinks it is intentional because there's hardly any countersteer. Even in low speed spins at like Barcelona's final chicane and so on, the drivers put on full opposite lock to try and save it, it's instinctual. The halfhearted slow return to barely past halfway is what really seals it as intentional IMO. He has to actively be wanting to drop the rear to not countersteer.
In other news, Mick is officially out of Haas, and it's the return of Hulk (for realsies this time). Saw this one coming sadly, he didn't have the pace of KMag, and the accidents have been extremely costly.
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This is what Max said about it in today's press conference:
It wasn’t about the position, it doesn’t matter if it's first or second or fifth or seventh or 10th; it was about something that happened earlier in the season, and I already explained that in Mexico, and the team understood and agreed.
Whether it was about Monaco or something else is unclear and most likely will stay that way. Whatever the case, it would've obviously been better if he'd just given back the place so all of this bad press, about him and Checo, would've been avoided.
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Whatever the issue was that Max is still upset about, it wasn't worth the damage this incident's done to his reputation or the negative press that's followed Red Bull for the last week. It's been noticeable that almost nobody is defending what he did outside of some weird ultra-hardcore Max fans who are comparing Max to 90s Schumacher, which totally ignores that Schumacher in his most successful era (early 2000s) generally tried to pay back Rubens whenever possible for the help he provided. In that era, Schumacher understood that F1's a team sport and that having his entire team, teammate included, on his side was a huge benefit. Max needs to learn this. Without his team and teammate, he's nowhere.
Speaking of Schumachers, it's just been confirmed that Mick's out at Haas and Hulkenberg is in. I'm not sure how to feel about this. I like Hulkenberg fine and all but it doesn't feel like a particularly inspired choice. It's too bad for Mick because it did seem like he was improving throughout the year, but it seems his mistakes were getting too costly for Haas. I kind of hope that after a year or two out Mick can get another chance in F1. He has potential but it seems like it just wasn't working at Haas. Who knows, maybe Logan Sargeant will have a messy weekend and Williams will suddenly be in need of a driver with a super license?
I do find it amusing that f1 pundits are talking about how this weekend we're losing Danny Ric, Vettel, and Mick while forgetting that it's Latifi's last weekend too. I guess that kind of speaks to the impact that guy's had on F1.
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So hyped for the season finale, lots on the plate;
Hope for a victory for McLaren and l’andò Norris;
It’s a long shot but hey, anything can happen in F1
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Alonso luck is meh as usual
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Nobody ever said it: McLaren is a team that runs alone, solo.
Since 2 years, Norris always P7, and ricciardo, Pehatever;
Hopefully in 2023 we can be a unified team with 2 drivers, not 1
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20 million dollars a year to end up Pwhatever. Everybody always says ricciardo is the coolest guy on the grid. Yeah, okay. What about actually reaching something in life?
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Another blunder from Ferrari. It's unreal how many points they threw away this season. Leclerc clearly had an advantage, and they just threw it.
E: OK, Gasly and Albon saved the day.
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On November 20 2022 23:10 Vinekh wrote:
Another blunder from Ferrari. It's unreal how many points they threw away this season. Leclerc clearly had an advantage, and they just threw it.
E: OK, Gasly and Albon saved the day.
Lol what? Leclerc is Vice champion of the world
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Well congrats to both seb and Leclerc for having won today; everyone else basically a loser
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Not the most exciting race of the season although the Leclerc Perez battle for 2nd in the championship (and race) had a bit of tension in it.
Hopefully next year will be a bit more close.
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Perez being Perez and underperforming with bad overtakes on Vettel and Hamilton, costing him a small chance to go for second place. Oh well, good to see that Verstappens decision last race had 0 influence as expected.
On November 20 2022 23:37 pebble444 wrote:
Well congrats to both seb and Leclerc for having won today; everyone else basically a loser
How is Verstappen a loser for winning the race? Or Norris for finishing best of the rest again? Sainz securing 2nd place in constructors?
And what did Seb win, dotd + exposure?, when their dumb strategy cost them 1 crucial point for a better result in constructors championship and the millions of cash that comes with it.
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On November 20 2022 22:51 pebble444 wrote:
20 million dollars a year to end up Pwhatever. Everybody always says ricciardo is the coolest guy on the grid. Yeah, okay. What about actually reaching something in life?
"In life"? That's a bit harsh, isn't it? Ricciardo did really well all the way up until he joined McLaren. Sure, he's sucked at McLaren, but that doesn't detract from the rest of his career
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On November 21 2022 04:59 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2022 22:51 pebble444 wrote:
20 million dollars a year to end up Pwhatever. Everybody always says ricciardo is the coolest guy on the grid. Yeah, okay. What about actually reaching something in life? "In life"? That's a bit harsh, isn't it? Ricciardo did really well all the way up until he joined McLaren. Sure, he's sucked at McLaren, but that doesn't detract from the rest of his career
Yeah, exactly. I've seen a lot of weird revisionism going around about Ricciardo that basically ignored that he was best of the rest for several seasons and that the majority of his wins occurred in cars that were not the class of the field. He also is one of the only drivers who has ever truly been close to Verstappen in race performance in the same car.
The other thing I see a lot is that Ricciardo wasn't good at Renault, which is also completely wrong. The 2019 Renault was horrid and Ricciardo was against Hulkenberg, who was well established in the team and comfy with the car. Ricciardo beat him easily. He also doubled Ocon's points in 2020. Ricciardo ended up 5th in the championship that year and only lost 4th because Mercedes gifted Perez that win in Bahrain when they wrecked their races with that massive pitstop screw up that cost both cars like 30 seconds each. In retrospect Ricciardo probably should have stayed at Renault but his move to McLaren made sense since at that time the team was rapidly improving and Renault's leadership was being odd.
It's always been obvious that something wasn't working with Ricciardo at McLaren. Ricciardo went from being one of the strongest drivers in the second half of 2020 (he got two podiums in the last two months of the season) to suddenly very slow only a couple months later. An established F1 driver doesn't have that precipitous of a drop in performance in that short amount of time without external factors. It's also been noticeable that when he does have the McLaren car under him, his old level of performance returns, like we saw in Mexico. I've seen several different breakdowns comparing his driving style to Norris and what the McLaren car needs (which, it's important to remember that McLaren's car is generally regarded as having very odd handling compared to most of the cars on the grid, which is why it also took Sainz a while to get used to it when he joined McLaren too. Norris has only driven McLarens so he's way more comfortable with it), and it just seems like Ricciardo's style of driving is fundamentally incompatible with what McLaren wants. Last year Ricciardo was able to start to adapt by the end of the year, but this year's all-new car's driving characteristics seemed so different that he just couldn't get a grasp of them.
We've seen many example in F1, MotoGP, and other racing categories over the years of even championship-winning drivers not gelling with a particular car or team, and it seems like Ricciardo at McLaren is just the latest example of this. Hopefully we will get to see him try again in the future at a different team because when he's on it, he's one of the more exciting drivers to watch. The last two years have been painful.
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On a slightly different but related note, I have a prediction. I think next year Perez is going to be the driver put under the microscope like Vettel and Gasly were in 2019, Albon was in 2020, Bottas was in 2021, and Ricciardo was this year. It already seems like there's a growing number of people criticizing Perez for not being closer to Verstappen given the performance of their car. Perez has been somewhat lucky this year in that the Red Bull car is so strong that it's masked some of his qualifying performances that have been pretty iffy along with some weaker race performances. If Mercedes and Ferrari are closer to Red Bull, it will be way more noticeable if Perez isn't up there. I don't want this to happen but it feels like it's already starting to.
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On November 21 2022 06:48 Ben... wrote:
On a slightly different but related note, I have a prediction. I think next year Perez is going to be the driver put under the microscope like Vettel and Gasly were in 2019, Albon was in 2020, Bottas was in 2021, and Ricciardo was this year. It already seems like there's a growing number of people criticizing Perez for not being closer to Verstappen given the performance of their car. Perez has been somewhat lucky this year in that the Red Bull car is so strong that it's masked some of his qualifying performances that have been pretty iffy along with some weaker race performances. If Mercedes and Ferrari are closer to Red Bull, it will be way more noticeable if Perez isn't up there. I don't want this to happen but it feels like it's already starting to.
You're probably correct. It's pretty insane in a season as dominated by RB as it has been, they only ever managed one front row lockout in the very last race. But it's not like we're seeing this for the first time by any means. I've personally pretty much concluded that the RB just looks much more dominating than it is because Max is behind the wheel of it. He's able to push it so much further than anyone could, and with anyone else behind that wheel than Max, we'd be seeing RB fighting for third this season. I'm not sure a driver that can match up to Max even exists any more, and if they do, they aren't people RB can easily get ahold of. The Merc boys are obviously not going anywhere, Leclerc will have to be removed from Ferrari kicking and screaming before he becomes available, and McLaren were incredibly clever by not only shaping Lando into their perfect driver, but also holding on to him with a really long and lucrative contract. The only potential wildcard left could be Alonso, but I don't see RB taking that leap of faith any time soon.
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If Piastri is the prodigy that everyone claims, he could be the next Verstappen. Somewhat doubtful cause his competition in F2 and F3 wasn't the best and he did have the best team.
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EPT
