EPTY'all see that Gasly is now 2 penalty points away from a race ban and it will last him several months into next season? His driving has not been great this year and his move on Stroll this race was pretty terrible. Add onto that his open hostility toward his engineer and team at times and it's really making me question what Alpine was thinking in signing him. He used to be an interesting personality but the last year or so it's like he's developing an attitude or superiority complex. His decision making on track has been way worse than in the past and he keeps ending up either nearly crashing or trying moves that are questionable. Hopefully Alpine can reign this all in a bit because otherwise Gasly might turn into the next Grosjean (occasionally fast but risky, stubborn, and incident-happy).
Formula 1 Discussion - Page 137
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
Y'all see that Gasly is now 2 penalty points away from a race ban and it will last him several months into next season? His driving has not been great this year and his move on Stroll this race was pretty terrible. Add onto that his open hostility toward his engineer and team at times and it's really making me question what Alpine was thinking in signing him. He used to be an interesting personality but the last year or so it's like he's developing an attitude or superiority complex. His decision making on track has been way worse than in the past and he keeps ending up either nearly crashing or trying moves that are questionable. Hopefully Alpine can reign this all in a bit because otherwise Gasly might turn into the next Grosjean (occasionally fast but risky, stubborn, and incident-happy). | ||
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Penev
28536 Posts
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Penev
28536 Posts
I have to agree with Permane and Shovlin here. The problem isn't that Alonso should've been shown a black-and-orange flag in Austin but that Magnussen was shown this flag a couple of times earlier this season. To quote the latter from this article: We don’t really want black-and-orange flags every race, because we’ve survived a lot of years where they were used correctly and infrequently. We do just need to let the drivers get on with driving and not be too afraid of getting near another car. | ||
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Excludos
Norway8281 Posts
On November 04 2022 07:29 Penev wrote: Alpine feel ‘line in the sand’ has been drawn over black-and-orange flags in F1 I have to agree with Permane and Shovlin here. The problem isn't that Alonso should've been shown a black-and-orange flag in Austin but that Magnussen was shown this flag a couple of times earlier this season. To quote the latter from this article: I don't think any narrative of the type "We need less safety in F1" is every going to gain a lot of traction.. Thank god. This isn't FIA just being overly cautious, debris on track has taken out drivers before. The spring that sent Massa into a coma only weighted around 900 grams. But hitting 900 grams of mass at 250km/h is never going to be safe no matter how much helmet technology has advanced. At the end of the day, it's the team's responsibility to keep the car in a safe drivable condition. This isn't exclusive to F1, literally every motorsport in the world will enforce unsafe cars to pit and fix their issues The problem has never been that Magnussen and others have been shown the meatball flag when their car is actively endangering both other drivers, marshals and the audience. The problem is that it often take 7-8 laps for them to do so, when it should be immediately | ||
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Penev
28536 Posts
On November 04 2022 07:49 Excludos wrote: I don't think any narrative of the type "We need less safety in F1" is every going to gain a lot of traction.. Thank god. This isn't FIA just being overly cautious, debris on track has taken out drivers before. The spring that sent Massa into a coma only weighted around 900 grams. But hitting 900 grams of mass at 250km/h is never going to be safe no matter how much helmet technology has advanced The problem has never been that Magnussen and others have been shown the meatball flag when their car is actively endangering both other drivers, marshals and the audience, the problem is that it often take 7-8 laps for them to do so, when it should be immediately The point Permane and Shovlin make is that the flag should only be shown if there's actually an unsafe situation. A loose front-wing endplate isn't that. And I highly doubt that the rear view mirror that came of off Alonso's car is the same weight as the metal spring that injured Massa. But moreover, the material the spring is made of doesn't deform (much) at these speeds but a rear view mirror certainly does. You can't equate the two. And lastly, if a car has damage that could result in such a spring coming loose is being noted then of course a flag should be shown, nobody is saying otherwise. | ||
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Excludos
Norway8281 Posts
On November 04 2022 08:05 Penev wrote: The point Permane and Shovlin make is that the flag should only be shown if there's actually an unsafe situation. A loose front-wing endplate isn't that. And I highly doubt that the rear view mirror that came of off Alonso's car is the same weight as the metal spring that injured Massa. But moreover, the material the spring is made of doesn't deform (much) at these speeds but a rear view mirror certainly does. You can't equate the two. And lastly, if a car has damage that could result in such a spring coming loose is being noted then of course a flag should be shown, nobody is saying otherwise. The thing that is made to deform isn't going to deform as much as the thing that is made to not deform at all..? You're not a material scientist, I can tell. No, the weight of a mirror isn't nearly as high. Roughly 250 grams for the mirror itself, pluss a bit more for the bits and bobs that attaches it. I don't know the weight of a front wing endplate, but the front wing itself is 10 kg, so you can do the estimations yourself. But you're still playing with fire. Who is going to be the ones making the estimation that "Yes, this part looks safe to hit a fan in the face at 250km/h, but this part right here doesn't"? It's better to just be safe, and show the meatball flag to whoever has bits that are about to fall off, no matter the size. Keeping your car in safe conditions has always been part of motorsports. I don't see why the pinnacle of it should somehow be an exception. I get it, it sucks to see your favourite driver being forced to pit for things that are out of his control, but at the end of the day the car is very much part of the sport too, and people need to start to accept that. It's no different than having a tire blowout, breaking a wishbone, or having an engine randomly catch fire; sometimes things happen that are completely out of the drivers hands. And at the end of the day, safety should always be prioritized where possible. | ||
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Penev
28536 Posts
The instances of the meatball flag we saw this year, didn't actually use to be given for the damage Magnussen had on his front wing, it was quite the surprise we suddenly got to see it a couple of times even in a relatively short period. It probably has to do with the FIA trying to enforce the rules more strictly like they do with the track limits which I'm also not a big fan of. Cutting corners and passing someone from outside the track are obvious violations but to check every corner if cars are a bit over the outside line seem excessive to me. I'm not at all advocating against safety regulations in F1 but I don't think it's a good idea to regulate so much that drivers don't dare to take any risk any more of fear of getting called in for a tiny bit of damage. A recovery vehicle on track like we had in Suzuka, now that certainly shouldn't have happened in those circumstances, that was a major safety risk. You can't control everything. If you think "it's better to just be safe" we best not race at all. That's all I'm saying. I don't understand why you see the need for the "You're not a material scientist, I can tell." and such btw. Surely we can just have a discussion without being condescending about this? | ||
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Excludos
Norway8281 Posts
I'm completely baffled by your thought process behind any of this. No track limits, less safety... is there anything else you want gone? How about technical rules altogether? Let every team loose to spend as much money as they want? Let's go back to 1955! Who cares if a couple of drivers die every year? "You can't control everything" after all, so why bother trying? Adequate is the enemy of perfection after all, so FIA should just not bother doing anything where they can't be 100% in control of at all times I'm completely dumbfounded even just reading this. Is fair and enforced rules on a layer of safety somehow something you don't enjoy in a sport? | ||
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Penev
28536 Posts
Damn, melt down much. | ||
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Excludos
Norway8281 Posts
On November 05 2022 02:57 Penev wrote: Jesus, what is wrong with you? Have you even read the article I posted? Or really properly anything else I posted? I have never seen this much straw manning in one post ever before. You're completely baffled an dumbfounded? Well I don't know what I am atm but it's worse than that probably. Damn, melt down much. I am responding to your own words, coming out of your own mouth (Or, if we're being precise, your fingers), not the article. Are you saying you don't stand by the opinion you yourself wrote? Or are you saying you're only repeating the words of the article, and that it doesn't reflect your own? In which case I will happily argue the short sightedness of the article, instead of your own representation of it At best you can hang me for the slippery slope argument, but that is the logical end-state for what you are suggesting. You don't want track limits to be enforced, and are actively advocating for less safety. I am failing to see how complete anarchy isn't the end-game here, because cherry picking rules you don't want enforced is somehow even dumber | ||
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aseq
Netherlands4025 Posts
On November 05 2022 02:44 Excludos wrote: I don't even know where to start. You want FIA to...not..enforce track limits? Just let cars go wherever? Screw the limits of the track, if there's asphalt they can swing around to Denmark if it lets them get a better exit towards the straight? I'm completely baffled by your thought process behind any of this. No track limits, less safety... is there anything else you want gone? How about technical rules altogether? Let every team loose to spend as much money as they want? Let's go back to 1955! Who cares if a couple of drivers die every year? "You can't control everything" after all, so why bother trying? Adequate is the enemy of perfection after all, so FIA should just not bother doing anything where they can't be 100% in control of at all times I'm completely dumbfounded even just reading this. Is fair and enforced rules on a layer of safety somehow something you don't enjoy in a sport? I'd love no track limits. The surface outside the track could be used to make it inefficient to actually drive on it, like pebbles, grainy asphalt or grass. There would still be barriers further away from the track, so you can't cut half laps. But drivers would be welcome to try...instead of this overregulated 'lap doesn't count, give position back' stuff we have at the moment. There were some experiments with pebbles stuck together by some epoxy (link), that looks promising. | ||
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Penev
28536 Posts
On November 05 2022 14:27 aseq wrote: I'd love no track limits. The surface outside the track could be used to make it inefficient to actually drive on it, like pebbles, grainy asphalt or grass. There would still be barriers further away from the track, so you can't cut half laps. But drivers would be welcome to try...instead of this overregulated 'lap doesn't count, give position back' stuff we have at the moment. There were some experiments with pebbles stuck together by some epoxy (link), that looks promising. Yeah exactly. Track limits should be enforced when they actually give an advantage violating them, not every corner needs to be policed. | ||
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Oleo
Netherlands283 Posts
Car has minor damage and one very small part hanging loose from car. Lets make him pit and lose 20-30 seconds, cause we care about safety. Yup FIA reeeeaaaalllly cares about safety.... /s | ||
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Excludos
Norway8281 Posts
On November 08 2022 05:46 Oleo wrote: Some idiot, who has previously been very lightly punished for weaving and cutting people off on straights and not looking in his mirrors, cuts off competitor in the middle of the straight, sending the other car flying at 300 kph and crashing himself. Multiple cars get peppered with dangerous debris. Ahhh, a 3 place grid penalty (5 second penalty converted due to not being in the race anymore) will teach him a lesson about safety. Car has minor damage and one very small part hanging loose from car. Lets make him pit and lose 20-30 seconds, cause we care about safety. Yup FIA reeeeaaaalllly cares about safety.... /s Not sure what your proposed solution is meant to be, or what exactly you expect from FIA. Ignore unsafe cars on track because it's someone else's fault, or punish mistakes harder? Meatball flags aren't punishments, not sure why you think they are. They're solely for safety reasons | ||
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Oleo
Netherlands283 Posts
The meatball is like putting stop signs at every intersection. Sure you made things safer maybe..., but perhaps its better to focus on bigger problems like actual busy intersections with a history of crashes. Obviously if your entire front wing is hanging lose or you have massive damage a meatball is correct. For a little endplate or other small piece of bodywork it is complete overkill, make it mandatory to repair such damage at the next pitstop or something, but the current solution situation is just dumb. In fact if you have a lose wing endplate and get a meatball, its better to drop back behind another driver and let turbulence of the other car blow it right off, so there is no reason for the meatball anymore you'll lose less time. | ||
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Laurens
Belgium4558 Posts
Stroll did also get 2 penalty points on his licence. Now this is perhaps where they can get a bit more serious with punishment. You need 12 points over the course of a year to get banned from 1 race. And a move like Stroll did generally only gets 2 points. So you can take other drivers out six times and then you'll get banned for 1 race only. That's a bit too lenient imo. edit: do you get put back on 0 points after the one race ban? Can't immediately find it. | ||
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Excludos
Norway8281 Posts
On November 10 2022 23:20 Laurens wrote: While I generally agree with the "Stroll is an idiot" vibe, causing a collision should receive a penalty regardless of the outcome of said collision. Let's not re-open the HAM vs VER Silverstone discussion :D Stroll did also get 2 penalty points on his licence. Now this is perhaps where they can get a bit more serious with punishment. You need 12 points over the course of a year to get banned from 1 race. And a move like Stroll did generally only gets 2 points. So you can take other drivers out six times and then you'll get banned for 1 race only. That's a bit too lenient imo. edit: do you get put back on 0 points after the one race ban? Can't immediately find it. Yes, after one race ban, you go all the way back down to 0 license points. I agree that the license point system has merit, if only two things were vastly improved: Consistency in application, and only apply it to actual safety concerns. Right now people are getting points left and right for the absolute dumbest shit that has nothing do to with safety. And while I don't usually don my "conspiracy theory" tin foil hat, the fact that Gasly is getting them so much easier than everyone else while simultaneously being one of the most outspoken drivers against FIA doesn't paint a super pretty picture. For instance, both Perez and Gasly getting license points for "falling more than 10 car lengths behind during safety car period" is an incredibly asinine one. For one, every single driver is at one point or another more than 50 meters from the car ahead in a safety car train, so FIA clearly aren't applying the rule as written. Secondly, in Gasly's case, you can clearly see the guy ahead slow down to practically a stop in the middle of the corner, before absolutely gunning it full pedal down the straight afterwards. Then there's Gasly's latest point for "Leaving the track and gaining a position", given to him because he forced Stroll off track and didn't hand the position back. Ok, yes, the overtake wasn't clean, and he deserved the 5 second penalty.. but license point? What? This has been happening all across the field on every race this season. Attempting and failing an overtake is part of the game, and has nothing to do with safety. Why the fuck does Gasly suddenly get a License point for it? smh. Honestly, I could go on all day. FIA needs to shape the fuck up. Absolutely nothing has improved since Abu Dhabi last year | ||
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Oleo
Netherlands283 Posts
On November 10 2022 23:20 Laurens wrote: While I generally agree with the "Stroll is an idiot" vibe, causing a collision should receive a penalty regardless of the outcome of said collision. Let's not re-open the HAM vs VER Silverstone discussion :D Stroll did also get 2 penalty points on his licence. Now this is perhaps where they can get a bit more serious with punishment. You need 12 points over the course of a year to get banned from 1 race. And a move like Stroll did generally only gets 2 points. So you can take other drivers out six times and then you'll get banned for 1 race only. That's a bit too lenient imo. edit: do you get put back on 0 points after the one race ban? Can't immediately find it. I am 50/50 on whether the outcome of a collision should influence the penalty. But giving a 5 second penalty for a repeat offender causing a collision on a straight is idiotic. If you have a nice duel in a corner and you bang wheel to wheel or something 5 seconds is fine. Cutting someone of @ 300 kph forcing him into the air and wall, creating an incredible dangerous situation is not a 5 second offence. The penalty points rarely lead to anything anyway so I barely consider them. Gasly somehow is in the dangerzone, which as Excludos pointed out is rather dumb/suspect. | ||
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Penev
28536 Posts
E: YES, this should be Magnussen's pole now | ||
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pebble444
Italy2503 Posts
That’s P1 | ||
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