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Bumping this for visibility:
On a semi-related note, are there any Americans or Canadians here in the Northeast area?
Would you like to have a friendly pick up game this summer?
On May 11 2018 00:20 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2018 00:00 JimmiC wrote:
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Going somewhere else where he could be the Alpha and the #1 guy I would think would be super egotistical if they had worse options above.[...] It's not really so much that Durant didn't want to be alpha or "the guy" or whatever. We now get that he's not that kind of person, and that's fine (I'm not that kind of guy either, I completely understand). It's more so: why would you pick out of 29 teams the guys that are already the best team in the NBA and that just beat you in a close series in the playoff. At some point, you could tell yourself (especially if you had problems with your current team): "I could probably go to another team, me, KD, one of the 3 best players in the league, and beat these guys next year!". But no, the hardest road was to join them, for sure... Now as far as all the conditions you mentioned. If they really are that much better in GS than anywhere else, then fine sure, it's a good choice. But let's face it, the only thing that's significantly better here than ANY OTHER team in the NBA, is your chance of winning the ring, that's it. And that's what Durant went for. Show nested quote +On May 11 2018 00:02 Twinkle Toes wrote:
ZenithM, let's concede for the purpose of discussion that what KD did was "uncompetitive".
So based on these same standards, how would you assess Lebron? The Decision was obviously a similar move. But circumstances matter. KD's were worse and made the choice of team more shocking, to me at least.
For someone who see so obsessed with being competitive, you confuse me on how you can be harsh on one and turn a blind eye on the other. May I offer a different perspective on this "circumstance" on this topic?
Universally proclaimed best player in the league, self-proclaimed goat candidate, calls two other superstars in a clear attempt to tip the balance significantly in their favor, and jumps ship to join the team of the aforementioned superstar as he plays second fiddle, whined and bolted when this didn't work as planned, and formed another superteam, and he does allt this in a conference that is already so weak that he is able to steamroll his way to the finals for about decade.
Which part of this is about being a competitive alpha male player?
Let me reiterate my stand on this just to be clear: You can hate this business decision thing or accept and understand it, but you can't hate on one and ignore the other. And if you want to split hairs on the degree of weakness, I can use the example about and have a valid argument that what Lebron did was weaker. But like I said, just recognizing whether it is a bitch move or not is enough for me, arguing which is weaker is bordering dangerously close to dogmatic idolatry.
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On May 10 2018 23:20 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
I think Casey got the NBACA award because
(1) he is a good coach
(2) there is a perception his job is in danger; guys like Scott Brooks and Tyron Lue have already publicly endorsed him. Has any other coach had 2 coaches go to bat for him in the past week?
That wasn't the discussion. The question is why Stevens got 0 votes when Doc got one. Voting for someone because they might get fired seems like a poor criteria.
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On May 11 2018 01:18 giftdgecko wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2018 23:20 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
I think Casey got the NBACA award because
(1) he is a good coach
(2) there is a perception his job is in danger; guys like Scott Brooks and Tyron Lue have already publicly endorsed him. Has any other coach had 2 coaches go to bat for him in the past week? That wasn't the discussion. The question is why Stevens got 0 votes when Doc got one. Voting for someone because they might get fired seems like a poor criteria.
that is why i didn't respond to your post. i am making a separate , unrelated point regarding the NBACA award.
that is why it was #2. the #1 reason was .. he is a good coach.
i'll expand on what i said and be more clear and explicit...
primarily Casey is a good coach ....secondarily the NBA Coaches do not like the perception that Casey's job is in danger. Lue said it was absurd to consider replacing Casey. Brooks called Casey the "coach of the year". They are circling the wagons.
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that edit lol. Twitter links are so wonky. It woked earlier and now it doesnt? Maybe its on my browser?
Anyway, its about PHI having + when Simmons is sitting and - when he is on the floor. And the other one is him not having a 3 all season long.
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On May 11 2018 01:19 JimmiC wrote:
I'm not arguing that KD didn't have competitive team, I'm arguing that leavinga team with teammates that are not fun/good to play with for ones that are does not make him weak (plus other points I've made).
When George leaves and Carmelo also complains about "not being used right" beside Westbrook I think KD decision makes more sense.
I don't disagree with you dude. He was a free agent and it was within his right. Was purely arguing from the standpoint of which was a more "uncompetitive" move.
On May 11 2018 01:18 Twinkle Toes wrote:
Universally proclaimed best player in the league, self-proclaimed goat candidate, calls two other superstars in a clear attempt to tip the balance significantly in their favor, and jumps ship to join the team of the aforementioned superstar as he plays second fiddle, whined and bolted when this didn't work as planned, and formed another superteam, and he does allt this in a conference that is already so weak that he is able to steamroll his way to the finals for about decade.
Tell me about how you're such a big LeBron fan again?
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On May 11 2018 01:34 SCNewb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2018 01:19 JimmiC wrote:
I'm not arguing that KD didn't have competitive team, I'm arguing that leavinga team with teammates that are not fun/good to play with for ones that are does not make him weak (plus other points I've made).
When George leaves and Carmelo also complains about "not being used right" beside Westbrook I think KD decision makes more sense. I don't disagree with you dude. He was a free agent and it was within his right. Was purely arguing from the standpoint of which was a more "uncompetitive" move. Show nested quote +On May 11 2018 01:18 Twinkle Toes wrote:
Universally proclaimed best player in the league, self-proclaimed goat candidate, calls two other superstars in a clear attempt to tip the balance significantly in their favor, and jumps ship to join the team of the aforementioned superstar as he plays second fiddle, whined and bolted when this didn't work as planned, and formed another superteam, and he does allt this in a conference that is already so weak that he is able to steamroll his way to the finals for about decade.
Tell me about how you're such a big LeBron fan again?
Hello fellow level-headed Kobe fan. Just like you, I can admire a player's game and still be critical of his flaws.
Now, please point out which part of what I said above is not true.
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On May 11 2018 01:34 SCNewb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2018 01:19 JimmiC wrote:
I'm not arguing that KD didn't have competitive team, I'm arguing that leavinga team with teammates that are not fun/good to play with for ones that are does not make him weak (plus other points I've made).
When George leaves and Carmelo also complains about "not being used right" beside Westbrook I think KD decision makes more sense. I don't disagree with you dude. He was a free agent and it was within his right. Was purely arguing from the standpoint of which was a more "uncompetitive" move.
I think what some of us are saying is that making a move that some of you consider "uncompetitive" is not a big moral failing on Durant's part or something that makes him a bad person. Even as millionaire basketball players, there is more to their life than basketball and to quote another poster, an example of the goldfish mentality (whatever that means), to begrudge players a life outside basketball.
Durant saw a team that was enjoying themselves playing in a fun system while beating his team. He clearly didn't want to drag another team alternating between playing iso ball or watching a teammate play iso ball. He is also clearly a big city guy who wanted to mingle with Silicon Valley elite. Where else do you go for this? He chose to work for a better company with a better environment with better coworkers in a better location.
On May 11 2018 00:30 JimmiC wrote:
We'd have to go back and see what teams were options. I think OKC was out based on Westbrook, Hou was probably an option, but I don't see why that is better? From what I read all the GSW players were texting him and making him feel like a teammate and buddy before he joined. I think he made a good choice, I'm not going to hate on him, or Hayward or anyone who does.
I think San Antonio was the only other option from a basketball perspective. Houston was dysfunctional that year. It was still too early for the likes of Boston or Philly.
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On May 11 2018 00:00 JimmiC wrote:
No I'm not, I'm just taking to account that he probably picked GSW on not just the best chance to win but who his coworkers would be, who would the management be, who would his coach be, what city he would live in, so on and so forth. So if all this was better then where he was at, plus he gets a chance to win every year I'd say it was a good choice not a weak one. Going somewhere else where he could be the Alpha and the #1 guy I would think would be super egotistical if they had worse options above. If you don't understand this then I don't think you have played any highly competitive sport, and I don't know you at all but I'd be happy to compare levels of athletic achievement, I might lose but I doubt it.
So if LeBron took the minimum this off-season and joined GSW you would have no problem with it?
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8748 Posts
On May 11 2018 03:34 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2018 00:00 JimmiC wrote:
No I'm not, I'm just taking to account that he probably picked GSW on not just the best chance to win but who his coworkers would be, who would the management be, who would his coach be, what city he would live in, so on and so forth. So if all this was better then where he was at, plus he gets a chance to win every year I'd say it was a good choice not a weak one. Going somewhere else where he could be the Alpha and the #1 guy I would think would be super egotistical if they had worse options above. If you don't understand this then I don't think you have played any highly competitive sport, and I don't know you at all but I'd be happy to compare levels of athletic achievement, I might lose but I doubt it. So if LeBron took the minimum this off-season and joined GSW you would have no problem with it?
I'd have a problem with it and if I wanted to do something about it, I'd take it up with the Association, not with LeBron.
It's like hating Harden because of the way he draws fouls. Okay, hate Harden if you want, but does anyone really think it's reasonable to appeal to Harden or shame him to change his behavior? No, it's just the way things are until the NBA finds a solution. Everyone knows to look to the NBA for a solution, not the player.
Similarly, a salary cap creates the opportunity for a shrewd player to use his free agency to gain a competitive advantage when signing with a team by taking a pay cut. An offensive player is supposed to try to score, not draw a foul. A free agent is supposed to sign for the most money, not take a pay cut.
Competitive people find a way to gain an advantage. That's what they're supposed to do. The people making the rules are supposed to design the game so that when everyone is doing their best to win, it creates a result that is entertaining to watch. Hold them responsible if you don't like what you're seeing.
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On May 11 2018 03:53 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2018 03:34 BlackJack wrote:On May 11 2018 00:00 JimmiC wrote:
No I'm not, I'm just taking to account that he probably picked GSW on not just the best chance to win but who his coworkers would be, who would the management be, who would his coach be, what city he would live in, so on and so forth. So if all this was better then where he was at, plus he gets a chance to win every year I'd say it was a good choice not a weak one. Going somewhere else where he could be the Alpha and the #1 guy I would think would be super egotistical if they had worse options above. If you don't understand this then I don't think you have played any highly competitive sport, and I don't know you at all but I'd be happy to compare levels of athletic achievement, I might lose but I doubt it. So if LeBron took the minimum this off-season and joined GSW you would have no problem with it? I'd have a problem with it and if I wanted to do something about it, I'd take it up with the Association, not with LeBron.It's like hating Harden because of the way he draws fouls. Okay, hate Harden if you want, but does anyone really think it's reasonable to appeal to Harden or shame him to change his behavior? No, it's just the way things are until the NBA finds a solution. Everyone knows to look to the NBA for a solution, not the player. Similarly, a salary cap creates the opportunity for a shrewd player to use his free agency to gain a competitive advantage when signing with a team by taking a pay cut. An offensive player is supposed to try to score, not draw a foul. A free agent is supposed to sign for the most money, not take a pay cut. Competitive people find a way to gain an advantage. That's what they're supposed to do. The people making the rules are supposed to design the game so that when everyone is doing their best to win, it creates a result that is entertaining to watch. Hold them responsible if you don't like what you're seeing.
I think you can take it up with both and still be able to sleep at night.
I understand why KD did what he did, but I doubt I would've made the same decision if I were in his shoes. KD was nearing a decade in the league with no chip, and seemed to be plateauing in OKC (although you could argue being up 3-1 on a 73 win team is pretty impressive). I also understand that he probably didn't like playing with Russ.
I'm kind of curious to see what KD does when his contract is up. Will he pull a Lebron and go to another team now that he's won his chips and feels free of the pressure? Or does he ride this GSW thing out until the end? Probably will stay for the rest of his prime, but I think it would be cool to see KD go to SAS (assuming Kawhi leaves or gets traded) or somewhere else and try to become a face of a franchise again.
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On May 11 2018 03:53 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2018 03:34 BlackJack wrote:On May 11 2018 00:00 JimmiC wrote:
No I'm not, I'm just taking to account that he probably picked GSW on not just the best chance to win but who his coworkers would be, who would the management be, who would his coach be, what city he would live in, so on and so forth. So if all this was better then where he was at, plus he gets a chance to win every year I'd say it was a good choice not a weak one. Going somewhere else where he could be the Alpha and the #1 guy I would think would be super egotistical if they had worse options above. If you don't understand this then I don't think you have played any highly competitive sport, and I don't know you at all but I'd be happy to compare levels of athletic achievement, I might lose but I doubt it. So if LeBron took the minimum this off-season and joined GSW you would have no problem with it? I'd have a problem with it and if I wanted to do something about it, I'd take it up with the Association, not with LeBron. It's like hating Harden because of the way he draws fouls. Okay, hate Harden if you want, but does anyone really think it's reasonable to appeal to Harden or shame him to change his behavior? No, it's just the way things are until the NBA finds a solution. Everyone knows to look to the NBA for a solution, not the player. Similarly, a salary cap creates the opportunity for a shrewd player to use his free agency to gain a competitive advantage when signing with a team by taking a pay cut. An offensive player is supposed to try to score, not draw a foul. A free agent is supposed to sign for the most money, not take a pay cut. Competitive people find a way to gain an advantage. That's what they're supposed to do. The people making the rules are supposed to design the game so that when everyone is doing their best to win, it creates a result that is entertaining to watch. Hold them responsible if you don't like what you're seeing.
I don't see how calling out players for their bullshit and trying to get the NBA to do something about it is mutually exclusive. I don't even want to see the NBA make any rule changes for the sake of parity.
Besides, the idea that players don't care what fans think is simply untrue. That's literally what a legacy is - how you're viewed by your peers, fans, etc. LeBron and KD aren't chasing titles just to have trophies in their trophy rooms or rings for their fingers, they do it because they want to be seen as the best ever by followers of Basketball. The reason LeBron would never actually take the minimum and join the Warriors to win a bunch of championships isn't because he is afraid of the fans going to the NBA to make a rule change, it's because it would be the ultimate bitch move and destroy his legacy forever. You can say KD made a professional business decision that was the best for him and he doesn't care what the fans think, but that doesn't explain why he's calling up his agent in the middle of the night asking how he could let him fuck his life up by joining the Warriors.
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In all things culture matters. You can't regulate every behavior. Completely apart from philosophical discussions about parity, Lebron, Wade and Bosh's true crimes were collusion and acting in bad faith. You can't use the rulebook to eliminate player preference or stop players from talking to each other in their personal lives. I don't see how you can regulate this other than for the players to follow their own ethics.
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On May 11 2018 03:53 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2018 03:34 BlackJack wrote:On May 11 2018 00:00 JimmiC wrote:
No I'm not, I'm just taking to account that he probably picked GSW on not just the best chance to win but who his coworkers would be, who would the management be, who would his coach be, what city he would live in, so on and so forth. So if all this was better then where he was at, plus he gets a chance to win every year I'd say it was a good choice not a weak one. Going somewhere else where he could be the Alpha and the #1 guy I would think would be super egotistical if they had worse options above. If you don't understand this then I don't think you have played any highly competitive sport, and I don't know you at all but I'd be happy to compare levels of athletic achievement, I might lose but I doubt it. So if LeBron took the minimum this off-season and joined GSW you would have no problem with it? I'd have a problem with it and if I wanted to do something about it, I'd take it up with the Association, not with LeBron. It's like hating Harden because of the way he draws fouls. Okay, hate Harden if you want, but does anyone really think it's reasonable to appeal to Harden or shame him to change his behavior? No, it's just the way things are until the NBA finds a solution. Everyone knows to look to the NBA for a solution, not the player. Similarly, a salary cap creates the opportunity for a shrewd player to use his free agency to gain a competitive advantage when signing with a team by taking a pay cut. An offensive player is supposed to try to score, not draw a foul. A free agent is supposed to sign for the most money, not take a pay cut. Competitive people find a way to gain an advantage. That's what they're supposed to do. The people making the rules are supposed to design the game so that when everyone is doing their best to win, it creates a result that is entertaining to watch. Hold them responsible if you don't like what you're seeing.
Hate to break it to you - drawing fouls is an attempt at scoring.
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Nobody is saying joining the Warriors lessens KD's skill or makes him not a first ballot HOFer. I'm not even saying KD is a bitch - just that joining the Warriors was a bitch move.
However, calling joining the Warriors the "hardest road" when it's undeniably the absolute easiest road to a championship is some Grade A Bullshit and there is nothing wrong with pointing that out.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://espntheundefeated.files.wordpress.com/2018/05/20180509_brf_sj7_0307_24720647-e1525960523130.jpg?w=700&quality=70&strip=info)
