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On May 10 2018 07:44 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2018 06:35 darthfoley wrote:On May 10 2018 02:19 Scarecrow wrote:On May 09 2018 22:48 Twinkle Toes wrote:On May 09 2018 22:00 Scarecrow wrote:On May 09 2018 21:50 Twinkle Toes wrote:
KD has goat potential, but has such bad PR reps that his otherwise acceptable career decision has turned him into a punching bag. This is funny, but this is below the belt, and I feel bad for KD. He had goat potential until he gave up trying to compete and joined the best team of this (and arguably any) era. All his bad PR is self-inflicted and meanwhile he's (slim) reaping the rewards of the 'easiest road'. I don't get why anyone would feel bad for him. 1. If you are serious about this, you should as well disqualify Lebron for GOAT. He started this superteam trend in modern NBA. 2. It's not as if KD bummed his stint last year in winning the finals. He was FMVP who clowned Lebron all series long, hardly "easiest road" wouldn't you agree. 3. His basketball skills is goat-level, only an irrational hater would deny this. We could even argue that he is paving new paths for the NBA. 4. "best team of this (and arguably any) era"? Do you mean the one that lost in the finals? I get what you mean, but it is not black and white. This is exactly what I'm saying. His reputation is so poorly managed that it's as if he is a puppy-kicking Satan when all he did was look out for himself. Of course his social media shenanigans doesn't help him, but he needs a Lebron-type Cambridge Analytica-level social media stanning in order to begin to rehabilitate his reputation. He may be a cupcake and a thin skinned idiot, but basketball-wise, he is great. Agreed with most of what you're saying. Yes he's incredibly skilled and a fantastic basketball player, but I'm really sick of hearing disingenuous bullshit like #1. Lebron formed a team with 2 other all stars, noone knew if it would work out. There were no guarantees as they built that team, same as with OKC's big 3 and other attempts over the years. It just doesn't compare to an MVP in his prime joining an already established, historic 73 win team that included another prime MVP. Even though the Warriors choked vs the Cavs, that team was still going to be the massive title favorite without KD the following season. If Lebron had joined Bosh and Wade after letting them play a season do you think the situation would be comparable? That team would've been decent, but nowhere near that Warrior squad. The closest equivalent to what KD did would be something akin to MVP Derrick Rose joining Bosh, Wade and Lebron after they lost to Dallas in 2011. Even then, what KD did was worse (a better player joining an even more dominant, proven team).As for #2, it's basically semantics. Of course it's not the literal easiest road of feigning injury and playing fortnite all season, but for a player of his caliber with his choice of NBA destinations, it was by far the easiest road he could've taken to a ring and anything he wins with this GS team will be lessened by it. The finals and being arguably the best player on the warriors is an argument against his legacy imo. He is so good he should've and probably could've taken on either Lebron in the East or the Warriors in the West. That way he forges a respectable career instead of piggy-backing the best team since Jordan's bulls and breaking league balance because he wanted to collect rings rather than compete for them. Agreed. Comparing LBJ joining Wade and Bosh vs. Durant joining an already 73 win superstar team of Curry, Thompson, Draymond, Barnes (who gave you a solid 12 points and 38% 3pt shooting), Livingston, Iguodala, etc. is just silly IMO This is 100% the kind of goldfish syndrome I was talking about. Anyone who calls the pre-Durant Warriors a superstar team is heavily afflicted.
What's your definition of "superstar team?" Clearly it was the best team in the league. 3 All-stars, winningest record ever, reigning back to back MVP, coach of the year, runner up DPOY, runner up 6th man of the year.
KD and LeBron both made bitch moves to form their superteams, but KD's bitch move was obviously a way bigger bitch move than LeBron's. He literally joined the best team in the league. This would be more like if instead of joining Miami with Bosh he just went to the Lakers and joined up with Kobe/Gasol. If LeBron takes the minimum this off-season and joins the Warriors that would be even a way bigger bitch move than KD's bitch move.
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What a finish.
Brad Stevens real COTY.
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On May 10 2018 11:48 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2018 07:44 cLutZ wrote:On May 10 2018 06:35 darthfoley wrote:On May 10 2018 02:19 Scarecrow wrote:On May 09 2018 22:48 Twinkle Toes wrote:On May 09 2018 22:00 Scarecrow wrote:On May 09 2018 21:50 Twinkle Toes wrote:
KD has goat potential, but has such bad PR reps that his otherwise acceptable career decision has turned him into a punching bag. This is funny, but this is below the belt, and I feel bad for KD. He had goat potential until he gave up trying to compete and joined the best team of this (and arguably any) era. All his bad PR is self-inflicted and meanwhile he's (slim) reaping the rewards of the 'easiest road'. I don't get why anyone would feel bad for him. 1. If you are serious about this, you should as well disqualify Lebron for GOAT. He started this superteam trend in modern NBA. 2. It's not as if KD bummed his stint last year in winning the finals. He was FMVP who clowned Lebron all series long, hardly "easiest road" wouldn't you agree. 3. His basketball skills is goat-level, only an irrational hater would deny this. We could even argue that he is paving new paths for the NBA. 4. "best team of this (and arguably any) era"? Do you mean the one that lost in the finals? I get what you mean, but it is not black and white. This is exactly what I'm saying. His reputation is so poorly managed that it's as if he is a puppy-kicking Satan when all he did was look out for himself. Of course his social media shenanigans doesn't help him, but he needs a Lebron-type Cambridge Analytica-level social media stanning in order to begin to rehabilitate his reputation. He may be a cupcake and a thin skinned idiot, but basketball-wise, he is great. Agreed with most of what you're saying. Yes he's incredibly skilled and a fantastic basketball player, but I'm really sick of hearing disingenuous bullshit like #1. Lebron formed a team with 2 other all stars, noone knew if it would work out. There were no guarantees as they built that team, same as with OKC's big 3 and other attempts over the years. It just doesn't compare to an MVP in his prime joining an already established, historic 73 win team that included another prime MVP. Even though the Warriors choked vs the Cavs, that team was still going to be the massive title favorite without KD the following season. If Lebron had joined Bosh and Wade after letting them play a season do you think the situation would be comparable? That team would've been decent, but nowhere near that Warrior squad. The closest equivalent to what KD did would be something akin to MVP Derrick Rose joining Bosh, Wade and Lebron after they lost to Dallas in 2011. Even then, what KD did was worse (a better player joining an even more dominant, proven team).As for #2, it's basically semantics. Of course it's not the literal easiest road of feigning injury and playing fortnite all season, but for a player of his caliber with his choice of NBA destinations, it was by far the easiest road he could've taken to a ring and anything he wins with this GS team will be lessened by it. The finals and being arguably the best player on the warriors is an argument against his legacy imo. He is so good he should've and probably could've taken on either Lebron in the East or the Warriors in the West. That way he forges a respectable career instead of piggy-backing the best team since Jordan's bulls and breaking league balance because he wanted to collect rings rather than compete for them. Agreed. Comparing LBJ joining Wade and Bosh vs. Durant joining an already 73 win superstar team of Curry, Thompson, Draymond, Barnes (who gave you a solid 12 points and 38% 3pt shooting), Livingston, Iguodala, etc. is just silly IMO This is 100% the kind of goldfish syndrome I was talking about. Anyone who calls the pre-Durant Warriors a superstar team is heavily afflicted. KD and LeBron both made bitch moves to form their superteams, but KD's bitch move was obviously a way bigger bitch move than LeBron's.
What's the point of this? Is there a bitch move contest? Both made previously-frowned-upon moves that were advantageous to them. If you bag on one, you bag on both. If one is acceptable then the other one is as well.
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On May 10 2018 11:48 BlackJack wrote:
What's your definition of "superstar team?" Clearly it was the best team in the league. 3 All-stars, winningest record ever, reigning back to back MVP, coach of the year, runner up DPOY, runner up 6th man of the year.
KD and LeBron both made bitch moves to form their superteams, but KD's bitch move was obviously a way bigger bitch move than LeBron's. He literally joined the best team in the league. This would be more like if instead of joining Miami with Bosh he just went to the Lakers and joined up with Kobe/Gasol. If LeBron takes the minimum this off-season and joins the Warriors that would be even a way bigger bitch move than KD's bitch move.
They were a great team, but they weren't made up of players that you could just shuttle to a bunch of other teams and they are the #1 player. I mean, someone was talking about Harrison Barnes round here and his FG% has dropped dramatically since he left. Draymond and Klay are good players, but without Steph (and Kerr's good use of them) they ain't much, Iggy, Livingston, and Bogut were veterans and seen as flyers to try to revitalize them.
All I'm saying is if you look at the team that was put together at the start of Mark Jackson's last season, and project it forward based on how players improve on average (with the additions as seen from 2014 or so), no one would have been shitting their pants. Same as if you looked at today's Celtics team at the beginning of this season. You'd have said, "No Kyrie, no Hayward, 43 wins and a 1st round exit would be miraculous." Same shit happened to GSW, just they still had their guys.
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Anyway, I'm just gonna put out my last word on this. If we follow the bitch move discussion, would this be a fair assessment:
1. Consensus #1 players in the league who openly aspires goat status calls up other superstars to form a frankenstein superteam, with the goal of winning a championship
2. Superstar who realized his team (teammate/system) doesn't work and joins a team of good players who bought into the system to become homegrown great players and a great team, with the goal of winning a championship
Player in example #1 underperformed and jumped ship to another superteam as soon as it was obvious his frankenstein team won't win anymore, especially not against another homegrown team of good players becoming great because of great system,
Player in example #2 balled his ass off, elevated his true potential in a legitimate team system, with demonstrated performance that he is the best player in the series, and winning an FMVP for this, as well as the championship.
Which is the bigger bitch move?
So again, both are bitch moves, or both are ok.
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Same as if you looked at today's Celtics team at the beginning of this season. You'd have said, "No Kyrie, no Hayward, 43 wins and a 1st round exit would be miraculous."
Which is proof, along with the IT-Boston team last season, that Stevens is real COTY!
On paper, talent-wise, this present Celtics team looks no better than the Kings or the Suns, yet they are smashing through the playoffs.
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On May 10 2018 12:03 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2018 11:48 BlackJack wrote:
What's your definition of "superstar team?" Clearly it was the best team in the league. 3 All-stars, winningest record ever, reigning back to back MVP, coach of the year, runner up DPOY, runner up 6th man of the year.
KD and LeBron both made bitch moves to form their superteams, but KD's bitch move was obviously a way bigger bitch move than LeBron's. He literally joined the best team in the league. This would be more like if instead of joining Miami with Bosh he just went to the Lakers and joined up with Kobe/Gasol. If LeBron takes the minimum this off-season and joins the Warriors that would be even a way bigger bitch move than KD's bitch move. They were a great team, but they weren't made up of players that you could just shuttle to a bunch of other teams and they are the #1 player. I mean, someone was talking about Harrison Barnes round here and his FG% has dropped dramatically since he left. Draymond and Klay are good players, but without Steph (and Kerr's good use of them) they ain't much, Iggy, Livingston, and Bogut were veterans and seen as flyers to try to revitalize them. All I'm saying is if you look at the team that was put together at the start of Mark Jackson's last season, and project it forward based on how players improve on average (with the additions as seen from 2014 or so), no one would have been shitting their pants. Same as if you looked at today's Celtics team at the beginning of this season. You'd have said, "No Kyrie, no Hayward, 43 wins and a 1st round exit would be miraculous." Same shit happened to GSW, just they still had their guys.
Sure, if we looked at that Warriors team as the sum of its parts we might say that's not the best team on paper, and certainly not as good as a Wade + Bosh team, but KD didn't join them at the end of the Jackson era, he joined that after they won the 2015 championship, were favorites to win the 2016 championship, and would have been favorites again to win the 2017 championship even without KD.
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On May 10 2018 12:16 Twinkle Toes wrote:Show nested quote +Same as if you looked at today's Celtics team at the beginning of this season. You'd have said, "No Kyrie, no Hayward, 43 wins and a 1st round exit would be miraculous." Which is proof, along with the IT-Boston team last season, that Stevens is real COTY! On paper, talent-wise, this present Celtics team looks no better than the Kings or the Suns, yet they are smashing through the playoffs.
4-1 doesn't do justice to how close that series actually was or how bad Brown was for the majority of it.
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On May 10 2018 12:13 Twinkle Toes wrote:
Which is the bigger bitch move?
KD's
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On May 10 2018 12:41 BlackJack wrote:KD's
Made my day! Thanks 
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Imagine what this team could have done with Kyrie and Hayward.
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On May 10 2018 12:44 Twinkle Toes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2018 12:41 BlackJack wrote:On May 10 2018 12:13 Twinkle Toes wrote:
Which is the bigger bitch move?
KD's Made my day! Thanks
No problem. You could have just read the last page of this thread, I stated that like 3 times already.
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On May 10 2018 12:22 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2018 12:03 cLutZ wrote:On May 10 2018 11:48 BlackJack wrote:
What's your definition of "superstar team?" Clearly it was the best team in the league. 3 All-stars, winningest record ever, reigning back to back MVP, coach of the year, runner up DPOY, runner up 6th man of the year.
KD and LeBron both made bitch moves to form their superteams, but KD's bitch move was obviously a way bigger bitch move than LeBron's. He literally joined the best team in the league. This would be more like if instead of joining Miami with Bosh he just went to the Lakers and joined up with Kobe/Gasol. If LeBron takes the minimum this off-season and joins the Warriors that would be even a way bigger bitch move than KD's bitch move. They were a great team, but they weren't made up of players that you could just shuttle to a bunch of other teams and they are the #1 player. I mean, someone was talking about Harrison Barnes round here and his FG% has dropped dramatically since he left. Draymond and Klay are good players, but without Steph (and Kerr's good use of them) they ain't much, Iggy, Livingston, and Bogut were veterans and seen as flyers to try to revitalize them. All I'm saying is if you look at the team that was put together at the start of Mark Jackson's last season, and project it forward based on how players improve on average (with the additions as seen from 2014 or so), no one would have been shitting their pants. Same as if you looked at today's Celtics team at the beginning of this season. You'd have said, "No Kyrie, no Hayward, 43 wins and a 1st round exit would be miraculous." Same shit happened to GSW, just they still had their guys. Sure, if we looked at that Warriors team as the sum of its parts we might say that's not the best team on paper, and certainly not as good as a Wade + Bosh team, but KD didn't join them at the end of the Jackson era, he joined that after they won the 2015 championship, were favorites to win the 2016 championship, and would have been favorites again to win the 2017 championship even without KD.
I mean, I'm not really defending the KD move, aside from saying that I don't think GS wins a 2nd title without it happening. I was more using the situation to make a point about how bad people are at realizing they are hindcasting "talent" by using current performance as a proxy.
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BlackJack, I can't judge the tone behind the text, but I meant that sincerely and light-heartedly.
A deadpan unexpected reply (not the content but the act of replying) to a rhetorical question.
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On May 10 2018 12:13 Twinkle Toes wrote:
So again, both are bitch moves, or both are ok.
I just don't get your logic. One superstar formed a team that became a favorite because he was in it. The other joined one that was a title favorite without him. Both are weak moves, but there's a big difference.
So according to you, if Rose had left Chicago for Miami after his MVP season (and ECF loss), that would be just as bad as what Lebron did? Your desperation to defend Durant is blinding you to just how egregious his move was.
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On May 10 2018 13:15 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2018 12:13 Twinkle Toes wrote:
So again, both are bitch moves, or both are ok. I just don't get your logic. One superstar formed a team that became a favorite because he was in it. The other joined one that was a title favorite without him. Both are weak moves, but there's a big difference. So according to you, if Rose had left Chicago for Miami after his MVP season (and ECF loss), that would be just as bad as what Lebron did? Your desperation to defend Durant is blinding you to just how egregious his move was.
I'm not defending KD, I'm a Lebron fan, but I'm just being level-headed.
Anyway, we have all the facts and seem to just disagree who is the bigger bitch, which is opinion.
I think we can all leave it at that.
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Stop trolling, you're not a Lebron fan, there are countless instances in the NBA threads where you bash him and draw meaningless comparisons between him and Kobe just to make him appear unclutch, passive or whatever.
If you cannot see how Durant's move was actually far weaker, you're also not a "Lebron fan". He joined the best regular season team of all time, after losing to them in the conference finals WHILE BEING UP 3-1... Everyone who has done anything remotely competitive in their life knows how ridiculous this is. It's a good business move, but at some point, your competitive spirit would probably prevent you to even consider it if you had any.
The only way this could have been worse is if GSW had won the title that year. I think even Durant wouldn't have stooped so low as to join them in this case.
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I bash Lebron when he flops or resorts to emo drama or when stans proclaim him goat with no valid arguments or when he acts way below the goat standard that he sets for himself. And you will agree with me that these are valid points to criticize him for. Re: Kobe. Of course, I am Kobe fan before Lebron, so it's only natural that I view Kobe more favorably than him, and I posted my reasons earlier.
Going back, one formed a frankenstein superteam, the other joined an organic superteam, There are a million details and cLutZ has already covered how our perspectives can be colored by recent performance. Both are bitch moves and both are done to forward their careers.
Anyway, this is not a hill that I particular want to die on. The facts have been discussed thoroughly, if you want to really objectively proclaim who the bigger bitch is, it's up to you.
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EPT
