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On May 03 2018 22:11 Faruko wrote:
Real Madrid way of playing the game is the perfect counter to Liverpool YOLO SCORE 100 AND LET THE OTHER TEAM JUST GET TO 99 GOALS style, they are not the do or die team like City is, they have a really strong midfield with lots of ball control and a much slower pace.
that just really doesn't help Liverpool at all, i mean, yeah it's football and everything can happen but still...
I think that if Real Madrid plays their game with Kroos/Casemiro/Modric setting the tempo of the game Liverpool has no chance, they really don't have a midfield that could take away the ball and control the game
How can you be so wrong? Their defensive collapses are more related to individual failures than going all out on the attack. In fact they play very vertically without moving their whole team up the pitch. They're a very disciplined team.
City is not a "do or die" team, they contain the opponent with 7 players in the last 30 meters, basically killing counter attacks before they even start because there is only a lone striker remaining high on the pitch and the few succesful desperate clearances actually landing on him will be destroyed by a tactical foul. Klopp's success agaisnt Guardiola is because his Gegenpressing (which requires an insane coordination and is not "YOLO" as you say it...)helps his team to not actually end up stuck in its first 30 meters thus negating city's gameplan.
Madrid was non existent in their last 3 CL games but they were very lucky. On the other hand Liverpool plays with Lovren, TAA and Karius, their backline is terrible.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Being bad defensively vs making an error is not a valid argument imo. The 6 goals Roma scored in the 2 legs are all defensive "mistakes" individually as is every goal ever scored in football. Liverpool are not set up well to defend, they have the players to do it, Lovren was one of the best centre backs in the league when they signed him, now look at him. They spent £80million on Van Dijk and he looks average in the air, they have Robertson left back who probably is good enough maybe and a young english right back in Arnold who just doesn't have the experience at all. Add in a keeper who flaps a bit and no real leaders and you get a chaotic back 5 who can't get organised. That is due to not being ready tacticaly imo, not being drilled enough on set piece defending as Scouse have been poor with that and back to not having a real defensive leader there.
That is why there midfield 3 is forced into a Winjaldum/Henderson/Milner defensive players to help negate that but it still doesn't work as we see with the Roma game and their whole season. They just outscore their opponents it was the exact same when Rodgers was there with Suarez and Gerrard. They just out scored opponents winning games 6-3 and 5-4 but ultimately it cost them and would finish second and trophyless.
Now can Salah, Mana and Firminho out gun Real Madrid? With all those galaticos and quite clearly their name must be on the trophy or baby jesus himself must be pulling some strings somewhere because it looks like its destined to be their 3rd trophy in a row and 4th in 5 years! Who knows, but it could be an entertaining final for the non scouse hater or non real madrid hater xD
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On May 04 2018 16:59 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2018 22:11 Faruko wrote:
Real Madrid way of playing the game is the perfect counter to Liverpool YOLO SCORE 100 AND LET THE OTHER TEAM JUST GET TO 99 GOALS style, they are not the do or die team like City is, they have a really strong midfield with lots of ball control and a much slower pace.
that just really doesn't help Liverpool at all, i mean, yeah it's football and everything can happen but still...
I think that if Real Madrid plays their game with Kroos/Casemiro/Modric setting the tempo of the game Liverpool has no chance, they really don't have a midfield that could take away the ball and control the game How can you be so wrong? Their defensive collapses are more related to individual failures than going all out on the attack. In fact they play very vertically without moving their whole team up the pitch. They're a very disciplined team. City is not a "do or die" team, they contain the opponent with 7 players in the last 30 meters, basically killing counter attacks before they even start because there is only a lone striker remaining high on the pitch and the few succesful desperate clearances actually landing on him will be destroyed by a tactical foul. Klopp's success agaisnt Guardiola is because his Gegenpressing (which requires an insane coordination and is not "YOLO" as you say it...)helps his team to not actually end up stuck in its first 30 meters thus negating city's gameplan. Madrid was non existent in their last 3 CL games but they were very lucky. On the other hand Liverpool plays with Lovren, TAA and Karius, their backline is terrible.
jesus... i don't know what to say....
that's like every goal in the world or do you think managers defend expecting the other team to score because it's part of the plan?
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On May 04 2018 20:50 Faruko wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2018 16:59 nojok wrote:On May 03 2018 22:11 Faruko wrote:
Real Madrid way of playing the game is the perfect counter to Liverpool YOLO SCORE 100 AND LET THE OTHER TEAM JUST GET TO 99 GOALS style, they are not the do or die team like City is, they have a really strong midfield with lots of ball control and a much slower pace.
that just really doesn't help Liverpool at all, i mean, yeah it's football and everything can happen but still...
I think that if Real Madrid plays their game with Kroos/Casemiro/Modric setting the tempo of the game Liverpool has no chance, they really don't have a midfield that could take away the ball and control the game How can you be so wrong? Their defensive collapses are more related to individual failures than going all out on the attack. In fact they play very vertically without moving their whole team up the pitch. They're a very disciplined team. City is not a "do or die" team, they contain the opponent with 7 players in the last 30 meters, basically killing counter attacks before they even start because there is only a lone striker remaining high on the pitch and the few succesful desperate clearances actually landing on him will be destroyed by a tactical foul. Klopp's success agaisnt Guardiola is because his Gegenpressing (which requires an insane coordination and is not "YOLO" as you say it...)helps his team to not actually end up stuck in its first 30 meters thus negating city's gameplan. Madrid was non existent in their last 3 CL games but they were very lucky. On the other hand Liverpool plays with Lovren, TAA and Karius, their backline is terrible. jesus... i don't know what to say.... that's like every goal in the world or do you think managers defend expecting the other team to score because it's part of the plan?
Well some goals are because of the attacker's brilliance. Others, like in Liverpool's case, are down to shit defending. I mean half of Roma's goals were gifted.
1. Lovren not connecting with the long ball resulting in dzeko goal in anfield.
2. TAA missing the ball resulting in el shaawary having the opening to shoot, plus karius not palming the ball to safety.
3. Karius thinking nainggolan's shot was going wide and not bothering to dive at all.
How about slightly further back against west borm when Gomez lazily and carelessly gave the ball away, resulting in a free kick that led to a goal.
Individual/collective mistakes after mistakes
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any goal that isnt:
a screamer
a top corner free kick
a penalty
is a mistake by the defense. you could argue a team not knowing wtf to do against pep's barca's tiki taka is a series of individual/collective mistakes also.
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On May 04 2018 22:16 evilfatsh1t wrote:
any goal that isnt:
a screamer
a top corner free kick
a penalty
is a mistake by the defense. you could argue a team not knowing wtf to do against pep's barca's tiki taka is a series of individual/collective mistakes also.
I disagree. Messi outplaying 3 defenders isn't because they made a mistake. Robben simply being faster and extremely in control of his body so that he is always able to trick the defender, turn inwards and shoot is not a mistake by the defender. Attackers positioning themselves correctly to recieve the ball and shoot doesn't mean the defenders positioned themselves incorrectly.
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On May 04 2018 22:49 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2018 22:16 evilfatsh1t wrote:
any goal that isnt:
a screamer
a top corner free kick
a penalty
is a mistake by the defense. you could argue a team not knowing wtf to do against pep's barca's tiki taka is a series of individual/collective mistakes also. I disagree. Messi outplaying 3 defenders isn't because they made a mistake. Robben simply being faster and extremely in control of his body so that he is always able to trick the defender, turn inwards and shoot is not a mistake by the defender. Attackers positioning themselves correctly to recieve the ball and shoot doesn't mean the defenders positioned themselves incorrectly.
Yeah Robben made a career of doing the same thing over over and over and over again and sometimes people just werent good enough to stop him.
I remember when Bale was at his peak at Spurs he scored a screamer after cutting in from the right and everyone was like how could the defender allow him to cut like that when everyone knew he was going to do it.
In the interview the guy is like, "I'm not an idiot, if you realized it, I realized it to, i was showing him the outside, I was ready for the cut in, I just couldnt get near him."
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If United had won yesterday..... Yes Mourniho it's the players fault when you lose and you're a genious if they win. ... then they would be on 80 points. That would be enough to win the Leauge in 2 out of the last 3 seasons. In fact the season Leicester won the league Arsenal in the end came second with 71pts. Right now with 3 games left to play Spurs have that and a better goal difference and they are only 4th this season. Shows you quite how poor the bg boys were that season.
Back to United. If I judge only on Champions League performances United looked by far the worst team England sent this year. But their points in the League paint an entirely different picture. I feel like United are much worse right now than their Leauge position and points suggest. However that's a prety hard arguement to make because the proofs in the pudding. The League position is meant to be the defining factor of how good a teams season has been.
I don't know, I guess you have to give them (or Mourniho since it's credit and I'm sure he will be trying to take it) the credit for the league position and points and move onto to next season and see what happens.
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i think the squad is too young to stay consistent every game.
rashford is a great player but that game showed that he still needs time to mature as well.
the fact is that aside from mata and herrera, most of our older players are in the back line or defensive midfield (matic/carrick). everyone in attack are basically just kids. its a shame ibra left because the attack could use some more experience
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It's interesting you mention consistency because the league position and points is good whch kind of implies they are pretty consitent. But in the Champions League Spurs, Liverpool, City and Chelsea all looked like they belong there. Where as United look uterly outclassed.
edit: looking out classed is of course just my opinion.
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yeah i guess its kind of ironic that i criticise consistency within the team when as you said, in another season we may have had enough points to win the league.
i think a lot of credit has to be given to the team for their determination to win games. weve had a fair few results that have gone our way despite being pretty poor overall; late winners/holding onto leads for 30mins etc.
if you consider performances only, not results, i dont think you could say the team has been consistently good enough
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Germany3128 Posts
I'm in Frankfurt today and I would be soo happy if I could watch HSV going down live 
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Norway28911 Posts
meh even if united gets 83 points, that's only enough to win the league in 2 of the past 15 seasons. They've been good enough for second place this year, no more.
I think inconsistency has indeed been the biggest problem. Performance against top 6 teams is not the problem. United has only dropped 10 points against Arsenal City Tottenham Chelsea Liverpool. City dropped 6 in their games against the same group.
However city has also only dropped 6 points total from their 25 games against the rest of the league. United has dropped 20 points in 26 games against the rest of the league. I don't think it's a question of player age though. I think it's a question of managerial styles. If you look at the average age of every player with more than 10 games played for both teams, city is at 26.25 and united is at 26.16 - hardly a significant difference.
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I checked the last 4 seasons to come up with my statistic that 80 points would be enough to win 2 of the last 3 seasons. It shows how misleading that really is if it's really correct that it would only be enough to win 2 out of the past 15 seasons.
edit: I'm afraid that claim isn't true 80 pts would be enough to win 2010–11, 2012–13, 2014–15, 2015–16 seasons. I didn't go back any further than that. I should also state that I am defining enough points to win the league as having more points than the team that finished 2nd that year. Maybe if you are comparing with it been enough to beat the team that finished first you would get drastically different results.
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its not fair to look at average age across the whole squad. like i said, most of our experienced players are in our defense. if you look at our defending it has actually been really solid and consistent throughout the entire season. our attack is what has a "random" aspect to it. sometimes they click and do well, sometimes they dont know what theyre doing. pogba/lukaku/martial/lingard/rashford are all 25 and under. we have sanchez now who needs time to adapt to the club himself, mata is a rotation player, herrera isnt really used as an attacking outlet. that leaves no one of the ibra/rooney/carrick age group in attack that can probably help when the attack seems lost.
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On May 05 2018 18:59 TheNewEra wrote:I'm in Frankfurt today and I would be soo happy if I could watch HSV going down live
just curious, but it seems every german fan seems to hate HSV. Why is that?
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Stoke have to win today and it's looking suitably tense at the Brittania. Palace in a run of form and a wine today seems them safe. Tough game for Stoke. Palace look dangerous already.
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On May 05 2018 20:46 Ysellian wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2018 18:59 TheNewEra wrote:I'm in Frankfurt today and I would be soo happy if I could watch HSV going down live just curious, but it seems every german fan seems to hate HSV. Why is that?
They went from being a decent team that competed for and in Europe 10 years ago to a team that escapes relegation at the very last chance almost every year. Including a couple of relegation playoff wins thanks to really questionable refereeing.
And all that while gleefully holding it over everyone elses head that they have never been relegated.
They're run very badly, but nothing changes because they somehow always manage to escape.
Seriously, the only reason to oppose their relegation is because this is yet another record that will go to Bayern, then again I doubt that they will proudly display a Bundesliga clock in the Allianz arena.
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Norway28911 Posts
On May 05 2018 19:41 Greg_J wrote:
I checked the last 4 seasons to come up with my statistic that 80 points would be enough to win 2 of the last 3 seasons. It shows how misleading that really is if it's really correct that it would only be enough to win 2 out of the past 15 seasons.
edit: I'm afraid that claim isn't true 80 pts would be enough to win 2010–11, 2012–13, 2014–15, 2015–16 seasons. I didn't go back any further than that. I should also state that I am defining enough points to win the league as having more points than the team that finished 2nd that year. Maybe if you are comparing with it been enough to beat the team that finished first you would get drastically different results.
I thought you'd obviously have to compare it to beating the team that's in first place.. otherwise you're just getting second? :|
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Germany3128 Posts
On May 05 2018 20:46 Ysellian wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2018 18:59 TheNewEra wrote:I'm in Frankfurt today and I would be soo happy if I could watch HSV going down live just curious, but it seems every german fan seems to hate HSV. Why is that?
Don't even know where to start.
In general chaotic clubs are often times disliked in Germany. Mismanagement led to them becoming a really big "Chaosclub". The club is shit from top to bottom.
Since a few years they are not playing well anymore. So their usual reaction to this is firing their coach ( seriously they had like 10 in the last 5 years) and thanks to them becoming useless they are financially dependent on their investor, which are big no nos for your reputation in German football aswell.
In Hamburg this incompetence on the field is paired with an ... utterly astonishing management. There is always a power struggle there. And I can't remember if there was a period of time in the last 5 years in which there wasn't some kind of drama happening. Be it that the manager loses a backpack with stuff like contract details or every single thing said in meetings getting leaked immediately. Also their investor is notoriously power hungry and tries to influence stuff like transfers. Paired with this drama you also have sheer incompetence. They spend big on people even though my 3rd grade Cousin would know that those guys suck. Just look at the Bobby Wood contract extension. He scored like 2 or 3 goals last season even tho he was brought in as their saviour and they extend his contract and make him one of their highest payed players.
And despite all that: A shit team. Constant changes of coaches. Drama in the management. Mismanagement. Being financially dependent on their investor. They always get to rescue themselves through some bullshit. They have played 2 times in the relegation playoffs against 2nd league clubs now. So 4 legs. Out of these 4 legs they only managed to win a single game. Against lower tiered clubs. It's quite pathetic. One time they stayed up by drawing two times. Another time they stayed up by scoring a freekick in the last minute that should never have been given.
Basically they are just too bad for the Bundesliga but manage to stay up through bullshit and luck.
And then you have the fans. I'm from the area in the middle of Bremen and Hamburg. 90% of people there are either Bremen or Hamburg fans. It's split. So I know quite a lot of HSV supporters in person. And they are utterly dillusional. They win one time at the start of the season? "We are back again. HSV reborn". They win 2 times? "We are playing Europa League next year for sure, maybe even Champions League.". But in the end they always fight relegation.
And this brings me to that damn fucking clock they have hanging in their stadium. It shows the time how long they are playing in the Bundesliga (since the first season and never been relegated). HSV has been a shitshow the last years so their damn clock is the only thing they can be proud of nowadays. And they will rub it in your nose: "Never been relegated, never will".
They are a dead club walking which gets safed by sheer luck and bullshit all the time. Just now it came out that they only got the license for next season Bundesliga by selling marketing rights. Thats how dead they are. But thanks to them always getting safed they won't make any changes in their club .
TL:DR:
They are playing like a 2nd league team. They have the management of a 7th tier team. Their fans are obnoxious. Their investor is an asshole. They have no business staying in the Bundesliga but they always do. That's why everyone hates them except their fans (and some Hannover assholes).
I had a few beers so I'm rambling abit. I hope you can understand what I meant You should read about some of their drama in management over the few last years. Some of that shit is downright hilarious
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EPT
