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On May 03 2017 14:28 WillyWanker wrote:
No, that's because these were the only 3 that could compete with Messi or CR. I think nostalgia affects us a lot. I don't remember Zidane ever reaching Messi's level on more than 2-3 games. I don't remember Henry being better than Suarez. The only thing I think the current generation is missing, is great defenders. The previous generations had amazing defenders, but now I don't see any that's an absolute boss.
you purposely dont read my posts are just dont get what our points are, but your the point you are trying to make your argument with isnt something im disagreeing with.
again, MESSI AND CR7 are at the very least equal and at best have transcended the previous generations' stars.
my point was that everyone else cannot be compared equally to the previous generation.
suarez equal to henry? give me a break
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I think there are many world class players in the game now like Suarez robben bale etc, and then there's messi and cr7 who are of an even higher level. Higher because they are one of a kind unique players.
Same goes for the past. Henry scholes ballack were world class greats, but zidane ronaldo and ronaldinho were just different and more special.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Oh good start to the day, got 2 FA Cup final tickets :D my job has a few perks woo
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On May 03 2017 16:54 DucK- wrote:
I think there are many world class players in the game now like Suarez robben bale etc, and then there's messi and cr7 who are of an even higher level. Higher because they are one of a kind unique players.
Same goes for the past. Henry scholes ballack were world class greats, but zidane ronaldo and ronaldinho were just different and more special.
Individuals are overrated way too much imo, specially the few ones who are the best of their generation. I have yet to see an individual carry a team to a trophy.
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cantona? albeit not for his skill but rather his personality
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On May 03 2017 18:02 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2017 16:54 DucK- wrote:
I think there are many world class players in the game now like Suarez robben bale etc, and then there's messi and cr7 who are of an even higher level. Higher because they are one of a kind unique players.
Same goes for the past. Henry scholes ballack were world class greats, but zidane ronaldo and ronaldinho were just different and more special. Individuals are overrated way too much imo, specially the few ones who are the best of their generation. I have yet to see an individual carry a team to a trophy.
As much as I hate him, Maradona did, didn't he?
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I am way behind here but I have only just seen that dive for the penalty from Leroy Sané against Middlesbrough and I almost felt sick. That is disgusting. And the game and the points meant so much to Boro.
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On May 03 2017 14:28 WillyWanker wrote:
No, that's because these were the only 3 that could compete with Messi or CR. I think nostalgia affects us a lot. I don't remember Zidane ever reaching Messi's level on more than 2-3 games. I don't remember Henry being better than Suarez. The only thing I think the current generation is missing, is great defenders. The previous generations had amazing defenders, but now I don't see any that's an absolute boss.
We have (enough) excellent/great defenders, but they all are helpless vs Messi and CR7. I think that all generations of defenders are/were bad against the two.
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On May 03 2017 21:36 Dingodile wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2017 14:28 WillyWanker wrote:
No, that's because these were the only 3 that could compete with Messi or CR. I think nostalgia affects us a lot. I don't remember Zidane ever reaching Messi's level on more than 2-3 games. I don't remember Henry being better than Suarez. The only thing I think the current generation is missing, is great defenders. The previous generations had amazing defenders, but now I don't see any that's an absolute boss. We have (enough) excellent/great defenders, but they all are helpless vs Messi and CR7. I think that all generations of defenders are/were bad against the two.
I disagree, they're helpless against Real, Barca or ManU at their best. Every decent South American team handled Messi easily during the qualifiers for the world cup 2018 so far and Ronaldo was no way near as threatening with Portugal than he is with Real.
Don't get me wrong, they're the two best players in the history of football but they're not the monsters sold by the media. They're only as good as their respective teams make them.
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On May 03 2017 22:54 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2017 21:36 Dingodile wrote:On May 03 2017 14:28 WillyWanker wrote:
No, that's because these were the only 3 that could compete with Messi or CR. I think nostalgia affects us a lot. I don't remember Zidane ever reaching Messi's level on more than 2-3 games. I don't remember Henry being better than Suarez. The only thing I think the current generation is missing, is great defenders. The previous generations had amazing defenders, but now I don't see any that's an absolute boss. We have (enough) excellent/great defenders, but they all are helpless vs Messi and CR7. I think that all generations of defenders are/were bad against the two. I disagree, they're helpless against Real, Barca or ManU at their best. Every decent South American team handled Messi easily during the qualifiers for the world cup 2018 so far and Ronaldo was no way near as threatening with Portugal than he is with Real. Don't get me wrong, they're the two best players in the history of football but they're not the monsters sold by the media. They're only as good as their respective teams make them.
Uhh no, they are still monsters, plenty of people have had very powerful squads to play in over the years, no one is as consistenty high level as those two.
This has nothing to do with the media, or perception, just the numbers are enough.
Please also note that for all the "handling" that people have done of these players they are still the top goal scoreres of all time for their countries and average half a goal a game, an average no player that has played a 100+ games comes even close to matching if you couple their club success. In isolation maybe only Pele and Puskas are better. And both played in monster teams against tubby ass defenders that had beer guts and were only good for knocking you down. Anyone with a bit of pace and the ability to check on either foot would run rings around them.
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I think this is the first new goats vs old goats debate we had here in years.
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On May 03 2017 23:29 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2017 22:54 nojok wrote:On May 03 2017 21:36 Dingodile wrote:On May 03 2017 14:28 WillyWanker wrote:
No, that's because these were the only 3 that could compete with Messi or CR. I think nostalgia affects us a lot. I don't remember Zidane ever reaching Messi's level on more than 2-3 games. I don't remember Henry being better than Suarez. The only thing I think the current generation is missing, is great defenders. The previous generations had amazing defenders, but now I don't see any that's an absolute boss. We have (enough) excellent/great defenders, but they all are helpless vs Messi and CR7. I think that all generations of defenders are/were bad against the two. I disagree, they're helpless against Real, Barca or ManU at their best. Every decent South American team handled Messi easily during the qualifiers for the world cup 2018 so far and Ronaldo was no way near as threatening with Portugal than he is with Real. Don't get me wrong, they're the two best players in the history of football but they're not the monsters sold by the media. They're only as good as their respective teams make them. Uhh no, they are still monsters, plenty of people have had very powerful squads to play in over the years, no one is as consistenty high level as those two.
You're pointing at numbers and consitency when I'm just telling you that despite being the two best in history, they're not head and shoulders above other players when it comes to actual level of play. Scoring back to back hat tricks in CL was unseen until yesterday but it was not like Ronaldo won the game alone. Real was the best team in all areas of the field against Atletico and it was rather even against Bayern. I don't think another world class striker would do significantly less than Ronaldo, even if the peak of said striker only last 3 years.
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Yeah but Messi. Ronaldo is a few steps below, we all agree here.
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On May 04 2017 00:13 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2017 23:29 Rebs wrote:On May 03 2017 22:54 nojok wrote:On May 03 2017 21:36 Dingodile wrote:On May 03 2017 14:28 WillyWanker wrote:
No, that's because these were the only 3 that could compete with Messi or CR. I think nostalgia affects us a lot. I don't remember Zidane ever reaching Messi's level on more than 2-3 games. I don't remember Henry being better than Suarez. The only thing I think the current generation is missing, is great defenders. The previous generations had amazing defenders, but now I don't see any that's an absolute boss. We have (enough) excellent/great defenders, but they all are helpless vs Messi and CR7. I think that all generations of defenders are/were bad against the two. I disagree, they're helpless against Real, Barca or ManU at their best. Every decent South American team handled Messi easily during the qualifiers for the world cup 2018 so far and Ronaldo was no way near as threatening with Portugal than he is with Real. Don't get me wrong, they're the two best players in the history of football but they're not the monsters sold by the media. They're only as good as their respective teams make them. Uhh no, they are still monsters, plenty of people have had very powerful squads to play in over the years, no one is as consistenty high level as those two. You're pointing at numbers and consitency when I'm just telling you that despite being the two best in history, they're not head and shoulders above other players when it comes to actual level of play. Scoring back to back hat tricks in CL was unseen until yesterday but it was not like Ronaldo won the game alone. Real was the best team in all areas of the field against Atletico and it was rather even against Bayern. I don't think another world class striker would do significantly less than Ronaldo, even if the peak of said striker only last 3 years.
I get what you are saying, but your not really presenting a case for what this "actual level of play is". There has to be something remotely quantifiable, otherwise you are just offering an opinion on arbitrary "I think therefore it is" reasoning, and I suppose we should just accept that because you think so.
I gave you numbers and consistency because that is something you can point to as an undeniable fact. Your comment is just
"hey these guys arent really much better than their peers, their teams are just really good. And the reason I say this is......
..... international teams handle them really."
Well they dont, they just handle them better than at club level, + Show Spoiler +(major tournaments exceptions is an extremely small sample size to make a judgement of of, aside from the whole "cometh the hour cometh the man" big stuff everyone likes to talk about, which is ofcourse relevant and has more weight to it for sure but falls within a certain margin of circumstances.)
Like I said, there are numerous instances of dominant and supremely dominant teams in the past 50 years, assuming all things being equal + Show Spoiler +(which they arent, its much harder now but thats another argument so lets ignore it)
their level of play in terms of the majority of measurable metrics as individuals and as part of a team are head and shoulders above any player with careers that are even remotely close in terms of longevity except Pele.
There are plenty of world class strikers in less competitive environments with a strong squad or team performance advantage over the rest of the competition, I dont see them doing the same things Messi and Ronaldo do,
So if we follow what you are saying, either the only world class players in the world are Messi and Ronaldo or you are just wrong.
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On May 03 2017 17:03 Pandemona wrote:
Oh good start to the day, got 2 FA Cup final tickets :D my job has a few perks woo
Sick :D
Hope Ajax doesn't get demolished tonight against Lyon
edit: Ajax 1-0 :O
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On May 03 2017 23:29 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2017 22:54 nojok wrote:On May 03 2017 21:36 Dingodile wrote:On May 03 2017 14:28 WillyWanker wrote:
No, that's because these were the only 3 that could compete with Messi or CR. I think nostalgia affects us a lot. I don't remember Zidane ever reaching Messi's level on more than 2-3 games. I don't remember Henry being better than Suarez. The only thing I think the current generation is missing, is great defenders. The previous generations had amazing defenders, but now I don't see any that's an absolute boss. We have (enough) excellent/great defenders, but they all are helpless vs Messi and CR7. I think that all generations of defenders are/were bad against the two. I disagree, they're helpless against Real, Barca or ManU at their best. Every decent South American team handled Messi easily during the qualifiers for the world cup 2018 so far and Ronaldo was no way near as threatening with Portugal than he is with Real. Don't get me wrong, they're the two best players in the history of football but they're not the monsters sold by the media. They're only as good as their respective teams make them. Uhh no, they are still monsters, plenty of people have had very powerful squads to play in over the years, no one is as consistenty high level as those two. This has nothing to do with the media, or perception, just the numbers are enough. Please also note that for all the "handling" that people have done of these players they are still the top goal scoreres of all time for their countries and average half a goal a game, an average no player that has played a 100+ games comes even close to matching if you couple their club success. In isolation maybe only Pele and Puskas are better. And both played in monster teams against tubby ass defenders that had beer guts and were only good for knocking you down. Anyone with a bit of pace and the ability to check on either foot would run rings around them.
Not sure what you are babbling about their great international stats... Because they are simply not that outstanding... It doesn't even need Puskas or Pele.
Messi 117 appearances, 58 goals
CR7 138 apps, 71 goals
Batistuta 77 apps, 54 goals <<< so nobody comes close to Messi in Argentina stat wise? really? 40 games less, only 4 goals less
Klose 137 apps, 71 goals <<< even Klose reaches CR7 stats ^.^
G. Müller 62 apps, 68 goals <<< yeah, needed only half the games for that amount of goals... I guess this is why you had to ask for 100+ games. His club stats with Bayern are on Messi level too.
Daei 149 apps, 109 goals <<< has to be mentioned, current World record holder. But yes, playing in Asia inflates stats.
Drogba 104 apps, 65 goals <<< fewer games/goals, but more known than Daei. But playing in Africa.
Keane 146 apps, 68 goals <<< in Europe. With fucking Ireland... Let's talk about carrying a team.
Overall 0.5 goals per game is the mark for a fair number of international top scorers. It is really good without any doubt... But Messi and CR7 are certainly not alone in those spheres.
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Gooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool
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very good chance for a 2nd one too, Ajax fully committed to get that 3 goal lead they want to squander in the away leg
e: there it is, all according to plan!
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AND ANOTHER ONE!!!!!! GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
E: that's what happens when you have a keeper with a terrible terrible kickout, and a bunch of young kids hungry to get the ball whenever they can 
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EPT
