On January 19 2017 04:27 mahrgell wrote: FIFA decided to try out few more things, stealing some ideas from hockey. - temporary sendoffs instead of yellows for tactical fouls and similar, most likely we are talking about 5 minutes here - penalties: instead of 11m spot kicks the "attacker" gets the ball at the 25m, but can run around with it. You have to move towards the goal, the goalie parrying once ends it. So pretty much the same as penalties are played out in field/ice hockey. It is not entirely clear if this idea is only tested as tiebreaker for the new WC group stage format, for all penalty shootouts or as general replacement of 11m penalties even during the game.
The "middle" card system is ok, i don't mind that i can get behind that maybe. Not a red card but worst than a yellow go sit out for 10 mins is cool. Or even change it so denying a goal scoring opportunity u go off for 10 min etc i don't know but that could work maybe. The penalty system no no no xD if that comes into play it will ruin football period.
I would have expected an England fan to even favor scrabble matches over the current 11m penalty shootout system.
On January 19 2017 03:56 Espers wrote: I would never criticise Pep's style of play and coaching philosophy is stupid, as it clearly works. The problem is I think he's done a really poor job of identifying the types of players he needs.
Misjudged Stones, lacks the brain to play out from the back even if he has the skills. Bought a a past-it keeper who's decent on the ball but and a mediocre shot stopper. Omitted Toure from his CL squad, the best passer in the squad (Gundogan wasn't great and he's injured now anyway) Let Nasri go, perfect player for his style. Bought Sane for an insane fee who just seems like a fairly predictable winger.
Also thus far I think he's failed to got the best out of Aguero. Yeah he scored a lot but his overall performances have been.. meh.
your post highlights exactly why his methods DONT work, at least for the man city team. again, not having the right players for his style isnt a good enough excuse. there are a lot of "philosophies" in football that work in theory, but football is such that you wont always have the players that can pull them off. managers are expected to be more than just tacticians in football; they are basically businessmen. his failure to manage his own players, make changes and accept that his current crop just wont do the job is going to cost him and it is what everyone is criticising him for.
rebs, no one is saying anything on how the changes should be made because frankly if anyone here knew that answer with a good amount of certainty, they should be applying for the job themselves. we are allowed to be critical of these people without necessarily having answers. also, you are right that people have a "philosophy" they believe fits them and is the best way to win. the only problem here is everyone in the world of football has this, and if you are going to do nothing but stick to it than what difference is pep to moyes or rodgers. pep, mou, ancelotti etc were considered to be a class above the rest because although they have styles they prefer to play, they were also thought to be versatile, adaptable and great man managers. (versatility and adaptability may have not been that strongly associated with pep even before all this, but he made up for it with "tactical genius" instead). currently pep is starting to show that he cannot be put in the same category as the others. mou is known for his defensive/counter attacking teams, but hes recognised that the man utd team does not suit that style and the club does not want that style. i commend him a lot for trying to bring back football that is reminiscent of the saf era despite it actually not being the kind of football mou previously played at other clubs. the important thing here is mou is also starting to get results and it is obvious the man utd team has made vast improvements. city on the other hand are pretty much going backwards.
sharkie, maybe city are dumb, i dunno. im pretty fking sure they werent expecting pep to turn city into barca though. they wanted him because of his name value, the hype, his apparent tactical genius and all the other qualities people claimed pep to have due to his success at barca and bayern. maybe the owners overestimated pep's qualities
There is an issue here. You are saying Mou is getting results, but you allowed him the oppurtunity to struggle through it. Yet you dont want to offer the same oppurtunity to Pep ?
At the end of the day, last I saw hes still ahead of Mou in the table. If trajectory is your argument then thats pretty meaningless in the context of the season.
Also Mou dont gotta play Europe. Thats actually a really really big deal. Or atleast it has been in the past. Also Mou didnt play exclusive counter attack football. Nor was he exclusively defensive. His teams are always shaped up to be solid defensively but that doesnt mean defensive football. He usually employed said style against specific opposition. That was kinda his great skill. Get teams to play a certain way against the opposition really quickly.
But it seems kinda of silly to me to talk about both as a "done deal". I will say it again. Just like it was silly to hand the title to City after 5 weeks, its equally silly to be smug and start whacking someone for being a clueless idiot when you dont have the answers yourself. You are within your right to do it, crticism is valid.
Criticising the wrong thing with generalisations is stupid and is indicitive more of confirmation bias than actual critical thinking. Also please space out your comments, eyes hurt when wall of text has no breaks.
I think the core arguement that managers are businessman is also wrong. Maybe this applies to Wenger or SAF but I dont think Pep sees the role as such, infact I dont think a vast majority of managers see this role as such.
On January 19 2017 03:56 Espers wrote: I would never criticise Pep's style of play and coaching philosophy is stupid, as it clearly works. The problem is I think he's done a really poor job of identifying the types of players he needs.
Misjudged Stones, lacks the brain to play out from the back even if he has the skills. Bought a a past-it keeper who's decent on the ball but and a mediocre shot stopper. Omitted Toure from his CL squad, the best passer in the squad (Gundogan wasn't great and he's injured now anyway) Let Nasri go, perfect player for his style. Bought Sane for an insane fee who just seems like a fairly predictable winger.
Also thus far I think he's failed to got the best out of Aguero. Yeah he scored a lot but his overall performances have been.. meh.
your post highlights exactly why his methods DONT work, at least for the man city team. again, not having the right players for his style isnt a good enough excuse. there are a lot of "philosophies" in football that work in theory, but football is such that you wont always have the players that can pull them off. managers are expected to be more than just tacticians in football; they are basically businessmen. his failure to manage his own players, make changes and accept that his current crop just wont do the job is going to cost him and it is what everyone is criticising him for.
rebs, no one is saying anything on how the changes should be made because frankly if anyone here knew that answer with a good amount of certainty, they should be applying for the job themselves. we are allowed to be critical of these people without necessarily having answers. also, you are right that people have a "philosophy" they believe fits them and is the best way to win. the only problem here is everyone in the world of football has this, and if you are going to do nothing but stick to it than what difference is pep to moyes or rodgers. pep, mou, ancelotti etc were considered to be a class above the rest because although they have styles they prefer to play, they were also thought to be versatile, adaptable and great man managers. (versatility and adaptability may have not been that strongly associated with pep even before all this, but he made up for it with "tactical genius" instead). currently pep is starting to show that he cannot be put in the same category as the others. mou is known for his defensive/counter attacking teams, but hes recognised that the man utd team does not suit that style and the club does not want that style. i commend him a lot for trying to bring back football that is reminiscent of the saf era despite it actually not being the kind of football mou previously played at other clubs. the important thing here is mou is also starting to get results and it is obvious the man utd team has made vast improvements. city on the other hand are pretty much going backwards.
sharkie, maybe city are dumb, i dunno. im pretty fking sure they werent expecting pep to turn city into barca though. they wanted him because of his name value, the hype, his apparent tactical genius and all the other qualities people claimed pep to have due to his success at barca and bayern. maybe the owners overestimated pep's qualities
There is an issue here. You are saying Mou is getting results, but you allowed him the oppurtunity to struggle through it. Yet you dont want to offer the same oppurtunity to Pep ?
At the end of the day, last I saw hes still ahead of Mou in the table. If trajectory is your argument then thats pretty meaningless in the context of the season.
Also Mou dont gotta play Europe. Thats actually a really really big deal. Or atleast it has been in the past. Also Mou didnt play exclusive counter attack football. Nor was he exclusively defensive. His teams are always shaped up to be solid defensively but that doesnt mean defensive football. He usually employed said style against specific opposition. That was kinda his great skill. Get teams to play a certain way against the opposition really quickly.
But it seems kinda of silly to me to talk about both as a "done deal". I will say it again. Just like it was silly to hand the title to City after 5 weeks, its equally silly to be smug and start whacking someone for being a clueless idiot when you dont have the answers yourself. You are within your right to do it, crticism is valid.
Criticising the wrong thing with generalisations is stupid and is indicitive more of confirmation bias than actual critical thinking. Also please space out your comments, eyes hurt when wall of text has no breaks.
I think the core arguement that managers are businessman is also wrong. Maybe this applies to Wenger or SAF but I dont think Pep sees the role as such, infact I dont think a vast majority of managers see this role as such.
On January 19 2017 04:27 mahrgell wrote: FIFA decided to try out few more things, stealing some ideas from hockey. - temporary sendoffs instead of yellows for tactical fouls and similar, most likely we are talking about 5 minutes here - penalties: instead of 11m spot kicks the "attacker" gets the ball at the 25m, but can run around with it. You have to move towards the goal, the goalie parrying once ends it. So pretty much the same as penalties are played out in field/ice hockey. It is not entirely clear if this idea is only tested as tiebreaker for the new WC group stage format, for all penalty shootouts or as general replacement of 11m penalties even during the game.
The "middle" card system is ok, i don't mind that i can get behind that maybe. Not a red card but worst than a yellow go sit out for 10 mins is cool. Or even change it so denying a goal scoring opportunity u go off for 10 min etc i don't know but that could work maybe. The penalty system no no no xD if that comes into play it will ruin football period.
I would have expected an England fan to even favor scrabble matches over the current 11m penalty shootout system.
Haha, nothing wrong with penalties though is there. If you play 120 minutes of football and neither team is winning it is a fair system to finish it. If someone gets fouled inside the box again it is a fair way to punish said team. xD Yes England might be bad at it but hey domestically we are pretty good :3
Penalty shootouts is one thing you have to try to see how it works out. 11m penalties have always been pretty sucky so why not. Do not see how it would ruin the game no matter what one chooses.
On January 19 2017 19:35 Redox wrote: Penalty shootouts is one thing you have to try to see how it works out. 11m penalties have always been pretty sucky so why not. Do not see how it would ruin the game no matter what one chooses.
As the final decider, I think changing penalty shootouts to something more skillfull is good. As punishment for a foul in the box, the 11m single shot is best, imho. It should be really fucking bad to make a foul in the box, and it should be punished accordingly. Moreover, we all get to make fun of the high profile players missing penalties.
I'm not quite sure how the new system works, though. Presumably the goalie would want to get out as fast as possible to make the goal as small as possible, so you'd need to train defenders to shoot past the keeper who is running at you? Seems hard.. plenty of forwards miss in opportunities like that (looking at you, Robben 2010).
On January 19 2017 19:35 Redox wrote: Penalty shootouts is one thing you have to try to see how it works out. 11m penalties have always been pretty sucky so why not. Do not see how it would ruin the game no matter what one chooses.
As the final decider, I think changing penalty shootouts to something more skillfull is good. As punishment for a foul in the box, the 11m single shot is best, imho. It should be really fucking bad to make a foul in the box, and it should be punished accordingly. Moreover, we all get to make fun of the high profile players missing penalties.
I'm not quite sure how the new system works, though. Presumably the goalie would want to get out as fast as possible to make the goal as small as possible, so you'd need to train defenders to shoot past the keeper who is running at you? Seems hard.. plenty of forwards miss in opportunities like that (looking at you, Robben 2010).
Would definitely be interesting to see and it would reward players who know how to chip. But a lot of players would, presumably, try to get past the goalkeeper, which could result in (debatable) fouls. How do you resolve them? Retry or count it as a goal (similar to how goaltending in the NBA works)? I think if the respective rules were enforced properly, there's no problem with the penalty (and also the penalty shootout) as it is.
Good point, not sure everyone would try to "skin" the keeper but it would happen and im sure some crazy keepers would take the rush at the player and put them off tactic which could result in fouls too. Ronaldo and Messi doing them be so funny though, the stick either would get if they missed a 1on1 with the keeper lol xD
MLS used to do penalties like this, bit further out and with bit less time but sitll
I don't like it, I don't share the massive hate that some have for penalties as they are now and I don't think this will change much. All that will happen is that it will be even more embarrassing to miss for "skill" players and defenders will probably look even more pathetic. The problem remains the same, there is no way of resolving ties that is fair relative to how the 120 minutes before are played out.
I don't like it, I don't share the massive hate that some have for penalties as they are now and I don't think this will change much. All that will happen is that it will be even more embarrassing to miss for "skill" players and defenders will probably look even more pathetic. The problem remains the same, there is no way of resolving ties that is fair relative to how the 120 minutes before are played out.
Well we used to do something similar in youth games and honestly 1v1's are so much easier when you know there is no defender in your back haha. My penalty record was shite but these type of shootouts were easy as hell for me. But like you said nerves are going to be the key factor anyway and defenders are going to look hilarious doing this.
of which I don't understand the hate for, at all, anyway. There's no issue with penalty shootouts, the issue is people thinking they're necessarily gonna crowd a 'worthy champion' in a best of 1 (or even best of 2), and not regarding knockout tournaments as primarily entertainment.
EPT
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