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On January 17 2017 05:28 Ysellian wrote:
Pep needs more time to implement his style of play. Not sure how much of a factor it is, but it doesn't feel like in England you ever really get a period where you can train on basics because there is always a game going on and no winter break. I also think Pep needs some defenders who can actually play football. I hope he gets the time he needs to turn things around. Like Rebs said, City aren't the only ones that struggle to get their game going on as Man Utd is clearly still a WIP.
Anyway playing devil's' advocate here, but the commotion around Guardiola is exactly why I can understand why Mourinho adopts a certain play style in order to get results. A string of bad results and everyone is calling for your head. It is pretty shitty to watch a team do, but at least it gets the press off your back for another week. Now I am not saying Pep should play long ball because that would honestly break my heart to see. I just hope Guardiola is given the time he needs.
No one ever called for Klopp's heads neither in Dortmund nor Liverpool...
Pep gets shits because he is Pep.
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On January 17 2017 05:33 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2017 05:28 Ysellian wrote:
Pep needs more time to implement his style of play. Not sure how much of a factor it is, but it doesn't feel like in England you ever really get a period where you can train on basics because there is always a game going on and no winter break. I also think Pep needs some defenders who can actually play football. I hope he gets the time he needs to turn things around. Like Rebs said, City aren't the only ones that struggle to get their game going on as Man Utd is clearly still a WIP.
Anyway playing devil's' advocate here, but the commotion around Guardiola is exactly why I can understand why Mourinho adopts a certain play style in order to get results. A string of bad results and everyone is calling for your head. It is pretty shitty to watch a team do, but at least it gets the press off your back for another week. Now I am not saying Pep should play long ball because that would honestly break my heart to see. I just hope Guardiola is given the time he needs. No one ever called for Klopp's heads neither in Dortmund nor Liverpool... Pep gets shits because he is Pep.
Different expectations with different teams. Dortmund and Liverpool were pretty meh/shit before Klopp took over and therefore he is given all the time he needs. People also don't expect Liverpool to compete for the title. On the flip side people expected Pep to compete for the title, but it is clear he needs more time to get the team ticking which is natural but people expect things to work instantly because $$$. Same reason why Mourinho had his share of issues earlier in the season.
Honestly instead of being surprised Mou and Pep need more time, I think people should commend Conte for really understanding the strengths of his squad as quickly as he did. Obviously the core strength of the team was there and something weird happened last season, but still.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Whilst you say Pep needs "more time" to implement his mass tika taka play from the back and keep 90% possession in a game or lose. He had the same amount of time as anyone else and when you compare vs Mourinho you can argue Mourinho has inherited a worst squad, spent the same amount of money as City and has now got them to where he would expect them to be, challenging for the top 3 spots. City finished 4th last season in a bad season in which as of January the manager was like yeh im leaving for Pep which im sure didn't help anyone.
The issue with Pep as i say is he is not finding a common ground to get through some games, vs the top teams which Everton away counts as! He should have reset to a default 4-2-3-1 or even try just stacking midfield with a back 4 behind it. However he tries all this weird play everywhere and people not in right positions and gets picked off.
Bravo
Oatemendi Stones
Sagna DeBruyne Toure Clichy
Sterling Zabelta Silva
Aguero
Is how they looked vs Everton, Clichy and Sagna so far forward that Stones and Oatemendi were exposed and they have Zabelta playing further forward than DeBruyne it felt at many times in that game as i assume they were all given a free role minus Yaya who had the Fernandinho role.
+ Show Spoiler +
Picture shows what i hate about that style when it don't work. 70% possesion yet in the danger zones they are close to equal. That doesn't negate to the difference in possession numbers either which is clearly something is wrong. Point in 70% possession if u are in danger just as much as the opponent in the final 3rd?
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Also imagine City's position if they hadn't had that ridiculous crazy start at the beginning of the season.
Out of all top6 teams they had the worst performance drop, even worse than streaky Arsenal.
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So City/Pep spends more than 200m and now the problem is that he lacks players ? Give me a fucking break, maybe he needed to do a better job and sign players he actually needed
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
All papers rife with him begging Messi to join him today ahah
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On January 17 2017 19:02 Faruko wrote:
So City/Pep spends more than 200m and now the problem is that he lacks players ? Give me a fucking break, maybe he needed to do a better job and sign players he actually needed
I count 125M pounds (without Gabriel Jesus that hasn't played yet) for City, while Chelsea spent 110M, and MU around the same as City or more... He did recruit players he needed, Gundogan is perfect for his playstyle for example. It's just that you can't replace all the players in one window, the market doesn't have unlimited top tier players available at all time x)
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
On January 17 2017 22:41 WillyWanker wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2017 19:02 Faruko wrote:
So City/Pep spends more than 200m and now the problem is that he lacks players ? Give me a fucking break, maybe he needed to do a better job and sign players he actually needed I count 125M pounds (without Gabriel Jesus that hasn't played yet) for City, while Chelsea spent 110M, and MU around the same as City or more... He did recruit players he needed, Gundogan is perfect for his playstyle for example. It's just that you can't replace all the players in one window, the market doesn't have unlimited top tier players available at all time x)
+ Show Spoiler [Spend] +
+ Show Spoiler [Net Spend] +
Think your calculations a little bit off Willy 
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Wtf. Shit like this is so dumb. Their old logo has so much value why change it?
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On January 17 2017 19:02 Faruko wrote:
So City/Pep spends more than 200m and now the problem is that he lacks players ? Give me a fucking break, maybe he needed to do a better job and sign players he actually needed
Not sure how much of a hand he had in transfers, a part of the blame must go to City's sporting director. I do agree that this is a part of the criticism which is fully justified. If you want to play a system you have to make sure you have the right players for the job or else you have to compromise.
On January 18 2017 02:37 RvB wrote:Wtf. Shit like this is so dumb. Their old logo has so much value why change it?
Hahahah holy crap how did Juve agree to this. HOW?! Their old logo is iconic.
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I mean, considering for how long it was know that Guardiola WAS going to be City manager, seems kinda odd if he didnt had a hand in what players he wanted.
It would be so weird if he didnt had an open line with the director, like im kinda sure he did
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On January 18 2017 01:13 Pandemona wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2017 22:41 WillyWanker wrote:On January 17 2017 19:02 Faruko wrote:
So City/Pep spends more than 200m and now the problem is that he lacks players ? Give me a fucking break, maybe he needed to do a better job and sign players he actually needed I count 125M pounds (without Gabriel Jesus that hasn't played yet) for City, while Chelsea spent 110M, and MU around the same as City or more... He did recruit players he needed, Gundogan is perfect for his playstyle for example. It's just that you can't replace all the players in one window, the market doesn't have unlimited top tier players available at all time x) + Show Spoiler [Spend] ++ Show Spoiler [Net Spend] +Think your calculations a little bit off Willy
Ha yeah, I missed one. But that gives us 140M something, less than MU. Can't count Jesus if he hasn't played yet. At least for this argument we're having x) Regardless, when you want to be top 5 in Europe, you need more money than that for the full team, especially with the inflated prices in England.
If we count how much money Real or Barça spent to assemble their current teams, it goes much higher than these figures. Ronaldo + Bale = 200M€; Neymar + Suarez = 150-170M€ (more like 200M€ in reality). If City had young talents it'd help for the finishing touch, but it's not the case. Real/Barça/Bayern can always complete their teams like this.
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the managers job isnt to ask for money and cry to the club owners that he doesnt have the players he wants.
use what you fking have and make the most out of it.
im pretty fking sure the club owners didnt hire pep expecting him to transform city into the english barca, so why the fuck is he trying to do that? and anyone who thinks he deserves more time because hes still finding players to suit his style, well to be frank its not his job to make city play according to his style. his job is to make the team win games. its not like city has so much history with associated with their 'style of play' that the fans can do what united fans did and give their manager shit for it.
pep does deserve time, but thats simply because managers nowadays are just not given enough time at all. however its pretty clear that no other team in the world except for barca is going to be able to pull off his methods, so if pep is given more time he should use it wisely and change his approach rather than being stubborn about it and sticking with something that doesnt work. thats what gets you fired lvg style
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On January 19 2017 02:27 evilfatsh1t wrote:
the managers job isnt to ask for money and cry to the club owners that he doesnt have the players he wants.
use what you fking have and make the most out of it.
im pretty fking sure the club owners didnt hire pep expecting him to transform city into the english barca, so why the fuck is he trying to do that? and anyone who thinks he deserves more time because hes still finding players to suit his style, well to be frank its not his job to make city play according to his style. his job is to make the team win games. its not like city has so much history with associated with their 'style of play' that the fans can do what united fans did and give their manager shit for it.
pep does deserve time, but thats simply because managers nowadays are just not given enough time at all. however its pretty clear that no other team in the world except for barca is going to be able to pull off his methods, so if pep is given more time he should use it wisely and change his approach rather than being stubborn about it and sticking with something that doesnt work. thats what gets you fired lvg style
Wait? If City didn't know that by hiring Pep they are going to get a Barca replicate they are stupid and deserve him
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I dont understand why people are under the impression that he is trying to turn City into a English Barca. He is playing the way he feels is the best way to win. The idea and the identity is pretty clear but I think its inaccurate to label it so casually. I get the idea behind the thought, but from what I have seen I cant say I agree. Especially considering alot of the things he has done he never did at Barca.
I also dont think its a fair assessment to say no other team in the world can pull off what he wants. Ofcourse he has to adapt to the qualities of his players which is what I think he is trying to do and failing miserably at.
As for changing the approach. Again no one seems to be giving me an answer. Everyone keeps saying it but no one actually has a solution.
When people say stuff like "he should stop the weird formations and play a regular 4 3 2 1 or whatever shit like that. Thats not actually a solution. That wont magically make his players start playing better. Thats not how football works.
I dont think its an issue of not getting players he wanted, there is no excuse there. He had money to spend, he has not spent it well. That criticism is valid.
To some degree the squad is too old and slow to do what he wants and the people he brought in to fill core roles either turned out to be ass (Stones - the next generation ball playing CB - Bravo ball playing Goalkeeper who actually cant keep or play ball at the moment) or got hurt (Gundogan, wtf were they thinking dudes spent half his life in the nurses)
So now if you look at his starting squads recently hes left with an avg age of like 30+ not Including Stones (struggling), Aguero, De Bruyne and Sterling. I actually hadnt realized this till I was looking into it, but that to me shows a core that is struggling to play the high tempo week in week out.
The other thing you will note is that (similar to how Barca is struggling on their end this year) the core midfield has to be very uptempo and highly reliable during turnovers. Not having Fernando or Fernandinho and having to play frikkin Zabaleta there is like disaster management mode. Any decent PL team when surrendered that kind of impetus should eat you alive.
I think Spurs this weekend will have a jolly old time and probably wreck City pretty hard.
Frankly if Yaya Tuore didnt show up this last month they would be in way bigger shit. Not sure how he didnt see the squad issues coming, but to me, that is a massive failure of oversight on both his and Tixi Begiristain part.
So their are plenty of issues at hand here and some expensive mistakes that you can be critical off. But I dont think the issue is the lack of "adapting".
Adapting is important and there are some pretty clear signs he is trying it, but I dont think the core philosophy is going to go anywhere, if you are just going to set teams up like Big Sam or 'Arry then why do you need a Guardiola ? Is that what we mean by he needs to change ?
I also disagree with doing whatever it takes to win games immediately. Its not just about style of play for styles sake. Everyone has a philosophy of how they see their team winning. Part of being pragmatic is accepting that the way you want to win may take time or may face hiccups.
You can be critical of the fact that "thats the only" way he knows how or that he is a "one trick poney". That be so but thats how he thinks about the game so I dont think there is any point in discussing that. He wants to win, he just believes that this is the way to win. If he is wrong he is wrong. There is no evidence to suggest that being a Mourinho who goes all pragmatic and tries to win any way he can is also a sure fired guaranteed method of success. Everyone ebbs and flows. Guardiola is no exception. Its not normal to be successfull 100 percent of the time. Regardless of what squads or situations or leagues you played in the past or going forward.
One can give Conte credit because he got his players to do some pretty cool things. But you also have to appreciate that he has benefited from a rich vein of form from his players themselves who on a few of the wins on that streak did some pretty crazy shit, all on their own. So the sustainability of that is questionable but the timing has worked out well enough for Chelsea to probably coast regardless to the end of the season. Besides thats what you need from squads that win titles. A player who wins you a game on their own every once in a while.
I still honestly think the best "team" team is Spurs based on the average of performances so far this season. They lacked some maturity in some games which Chelsea's squad has in spades so that for me is difference so far.
Arsenal is Arsenal and Liverpool cant defend (no one seems to be giving Klopp shit for this ?). United looks pretty solid now, but they arent world class consistency yet and they have a Carrick problem, in that he will not be around long. Same for Zlatan.
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I would never criticise Pep's style of play and coaching philosophy, as it clearly works. The problem is I think he's done a really poor job of identifying the types of players he needs.
Misjudged Stones, lacks the brain to play out from the back even if he has the skills.
Bought a a past-it keeper who's decent on the ball but and a mediocre shot stopper.
Omitted Toure from his CL squad, the best passer in the squad (Gundogan wasn't great and he's injured now anyway)
Let Nasri go, perfect player for his style.
Bought Sane for an insane fee who just seems like a fairly predictable winger.
Also thus far I think he's failed to got the best out of Aguero. Yeah he scored a lot but his overall performances have been.. meh.
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FIFA decided to try out few more things, stealing some ideas from hockey.
- temporary sendoffs instead of yellows for tactical fouls and similar, most likely we are talking about 5 minutes here
- penalties: instead of 11m spot kicks the "attacker" gets the ball at the 25m, but can run around with it. You have to move towards the goal, the goalie parrying once ends it. So pretty much the same as penalties are played out in field/ice hockey. It is not entirely clear if this idea is only tested as tiebreaker for the new WC group stage format, for all penalty shootouts or as general replacement of 11m penalties even during the game.
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On January 19 2017 03:56 Espers wrote:
I would never criticise Pep's style of play and coaching philosophy is stupid, as it clearly works. The problem is I think he's done a really poor job of identifying the types of players he needs.
Misjudged Stones, lacks the brain to play out from the back even if he has the skills.
Bought a a past-it keeper who's decent on the ball but and a mediocre shot stopper.
Omitted Toure from his CL squad, the best passer in the squad (Gundogan wasn't great and he's injured now anyway)
Let Nasri go, perfect player for his style.
Bought Sane for an insane fee who just seems like a fairly predictable winger.
Also thus far I think he's failed to got the best out of Aguero. Yeah he scored a lot but his overall performances have been.. meh.
your post highlights exactly why his methods DONT work, at least for the man city team.
again, not having the right players for his style isnt a good enough excuse. there are a lot of "philosophies" in football that work in theory, but football is such that you wont always have the players that can pull them off. managers are expected to be more than just tacticians in football; they are basically businessmen. his failure to manage his own players, make changes and accept that his current crop just wont do the job is going to cost him and it is what everyone is criticising him for.
rebs, no one is saying anything on how the changes should be made because frankly if anyone here knew that answer with a good amount of certainty, they should be applying for the job themselves. we are allowed to be critical of these people without necessarily having answers.
also, you are right that people have a "philosophy" they believe fits them and is the best way to win. the only problem here is everyone in the world of football has this, and if you are going to do nothing but stick to it than what difference is pep to moyes or rodgers. pep, mou, ancelotti etc were considered to be a class above the rest because although they have styles they prefer to play, they were also thought to be versatile, adaptable and great man managers. (versatility and adaptability may have not been that strongly associated with pep even before all this, but he made up for it with "tactical genius" instead).
currently pep is starting to show that he cannot be put in the same category as the others. mou is known for his defensive/counter attacking teams, but hes recognised that the man utd team does not suit that style and the club does not want that style. i commend him a lot for trying to bring back football that is reminiscent of the saf era despite it actually not being the kind of football mou previously played at other clubs. the important thing here is mou is also starting to get results and it is obvious the man utd team has made vast improvements. city on the other hand are pretty much going backwards.
sharkie, maybe city are dumb, i dunno. im pretty fking sure they werent expecting pep to turn city into barca though. they wanted him because of his name value, the hype, his apparent tactical genius and all the other qualities people claimed pep to have due to his success at barca and bayern. maybe the owners overestimated pep's qualities
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
On January 19 2017 04:27 mahrgell wrote:
FIFA decided to try out few more things, stealing some ideas from hockey.
- temporary sendoffs instead of yellows for tactical fouls and similar, most likely we are talking about 5 minutes here
- penalties: instead of 11m spot kicks the "attacker" gets the ball at the 25m, but can run around with it. You have to move towards the goal, the goalie parrying once ends it. So pretty much the same as penalties are played out in field/ice hockey. It is not entirely clear if this idea is only tested as tiebreaker for the new WC group stage format, for all penalty shootouts or as general replacement of 11m penalties even during the game.
The "middle" card system is ok, i don't mind that i can get behind that maybe. Not a red card but worst than a yellow go sit out for 10 mins is cool. Or even change it so denying a goal scoring opportunity u go off for 10 min etc i don't know but that could work maybe. The penalty system no no no xD if that comes into play it will ruin football period.
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