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On April 15 2016 22:12 WillyWanker wrote:
I don't see where Atletico's tactics counter Pep's... Any team would have a hard time against Atletico, hell I would even say teams used to counter-attack (like Real Madrid/City) would have a harder time than teams who know how to organize an attack.
Barça won 7 games in a row against them before this week's game, and you could say Barça's playstyle is very similar to this Bayern's. Real has a terrible record against Simeone.
Ya, Real and City don't know how to organize attacks... Sure.
Atletico are just running a lot and are testing opponent's nerves by playing extremely dirty. That's it. Half of their gameplan has nothing to do with football. That's against teams that are stronger than them. Basically they are trying to bring the opponent down to their level and then win.
Against weaker teams they are playing decent football.
Of course, Simeone does good job if we strictly talk about football... But on the other side, his team acts like a street gang, so no respect from me.
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I think what Mourinho did with Inter was as good defending as Simeones with Atletico.
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On April 15 2016 23:18 SwedishHero wrote:
I think what Mourinho did with Inter was as good defending as Simeones with Atletico.
Not really that, team was solid but it was still built to score goals. The only time he went full on defense was the Barca tie. Most other teams they took on and just flat out beat.
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Norway28795 Posts
really exciting games coming up. I also have real-bayern as narrow favorites - real's top level is clearly above City's top level, but they also seem even more inconsistent. Bayern vs Atletico is really interesting as well.. There's no 'countering of styles' though, it's just gonna come down to execution and coincidences.
Honestly happy with any possible final from CL, and I hope liverpool makes it in the EL. Klopp has made them really entertaining - I definitely wouldn't consider them favorites vs Villareal though.. (But Dortmund were also solid favorites, so this doesn't have to mean much. )
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On April 16 2016 02:21 Stratos_speAr wrote:http://bundesligafanatic.com/come-on-bayern-uefa-coefficients-updated/I think this is a pretty good article on the European picture, particularly how La Liga is so much better than everyone else (how fucking awful would 2 all-Spanish finals be?) and how disappointing and non-existent non-Bayern German teams are in Europe.
the last non-Bayen final appearance happened in 2009, when Werder Bremen lost 1:2 to Shakhtar in the UEFA Cup final.
Dortmund? I stopped reading the article there.
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On April 16 2016 02:21 Stratos_speAr wrote:http://bundesligafanatic.com/come-on-bayern-uefa-coefficients-updated/I think this is a pretty good article on the European picture, particularly how La Liga is so much better than everyone else (how fucking awful would 2 all-Spanish finals be?) and how disappointing and non-existent non-Bayern German teams are in Europe.
Saying non-Bayern teams are non-existant is just wrong lol. Dortmund, Schalke and even Leverkusen are very present and regulary make runs past group stages. It's just that noone but Bayern actually wins the title.
And also wtf at calling 1 semi-finalist not a success. Do these guys expect Wolfsburg to beat Real? Do they call Wolfsburg going to the quarter finals an "average day"?
What they wrote is just wrong on so many levels. "I thought the drought was over and multiple Bundesliga teams could make deep runs in Europe each year from now on" Oh ok, i suppose CL quarterfinals, El quarterfinals is not a deep run. OK then. They probably call Bundesliga bad if Dortmund wins the CL next year because we had 5 teams in the CL group stages and only 1 team won the title.
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yeah that article is damn weak, especially the financial aspect. German teams are light years behind england, spain and italy, maybe france too. Bundesliga winner gets 45m€, 20th place at premier league gets 125m€. Theoretically Germany wins every year that "salary/performance" award.
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On April 16 2016 19:17 Dingodile wrote:
yeah that article is damn weak, especially the financial aspect. German teams are light years behind england, spain and italy, maybe france too. Bundesliga winner gets 45m€, 20th place at premier league gets 125m€. Theoretically Germany wins every year that "salary/performance" award.
Are you talking about TV rights? Bundesliga champion only gets 45m? That seems too low.
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yes TV rights. DFL wants to continue to sell "entire-package". In other words Bayern and Dortmund are suffering with it but without FCB and BVB all others teams are suffering then.
Without "entire-package" I can imagine they are going to La Liga pattern. Real and Barca are earning ~140m€ yearly and Athletico Madrid as third best team with 40m€.
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On April 16 2016 22:06 Dingodile wrote:
yes TV rights. DFL wants to continue to sell "entire-package". In other words Bayern and Dortmund are suffering with it but without FCB and BVB all others teams are suffering then.
Without "entire-package" I can imagine they are going to La Liga pattern. Real and Barca are earning ~140m€ yearly and Athletico Madrid as third best team with 40m€.
La liga is selling "entire-package" since last summer and the numbers you have posted are from before that. The evolution is something like that:
2014/2015 Barca ~140 | Atleti ~40 | 20th ~10m
2015/2016 Barca ~140 | Atleti ~70 | 20th ~25m
2016/2017 Barca ~150 | Atleti ~100 | 20th ~40m
Still It is not as equilibrated as Premier, but the ratio is better now.
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On April 16 2016 05:34 BlackCompany wrote:Saying non-Bayern teams are non-existant is just wrong lol. Dortmund, Schalke and even Leverkusen are very present and regulary make runs past group stages. It's just that noone but Bayern actually wins the title. And also wtf at calling 1 semi-finalist not a success. Do these guys expect Wolfsburg to beat Real? Do they call Wolfsburg going to the quarter finals an "average day"? What they wrote is just wrong on so many levels. "I thought the drought was over and multiple Bundesliga teams could make deep runs in Europe each year from now on" Oh ok, i suppose CL quarterfinals, El quarterfinals is not a deep run. OK then. They probably call Bundesliga bad if Dortmund wins the CL next year because we had 5 teams in the CL group stages and only 1 team won the title.
No, the quarters aren't a deep run.
Over the past several years, we've ridiculed the PL for being so bad in Europe, and they've had teams in the quarters. Double-standard much?
The quarters don't mean anything when you're trying to be one of the best leagues in Europe.
yeah that article is damn weak, especially the financial aspect. German teams are light years behind england, spain and italy, maybe france too. Bundesliga winner gets 45m€, 20th place at premier league gets 125m€. Theoretically Germany wins every year that "salary/performance" award.
Money is a pretty weak excuse when the PL has been bested for so many years in Europe while making the most money. I'm pretty sure we've also talked about how almost all of the money in Spain goes to the Big 2, while the rest of the league still performs incredibly well in Europe compared to the rest.
the simple fact is that the Bundesliga should be able to do better. Aside from Bayern being Bayern and Dortmund having 2 great runs in the CL, Bundesliga teams have woefully underperformed.
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quarters are very deep runs in CL for many teams. Do you really expect that Leverkusen/Schalke/Gladbach can win in quarter vs Bayern/Real/Barca/PSG/Juve/ManC/Atletico Madrid? Oh they will meet them in 1/16 (ro16) anyway. So I named 7 teams which you can really expect they have to be in quarters. 8th team is the lucky one yearly.
Plus UEFA changed seedings since this season in CL, very horrible one in my opinion. Consequence = We have seen two top ro16 games (PSG vs Chelsea and Bayern vs Juve) and next year we will have three because of BvB. In other words we will see definitely more "weaker teams" like Benfica in quarters (ro8).
5 years ranking dont lie, you can see that only spain teams are better than german this season.
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On April 17 2016 01:44 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2016 05:34 BlackCompany wrote:On April 16 2016 02:21 Stratos_speAr wrote:http://bundesligafanatic.com/come-on-bayern-uefa-coefficients-updated/I think this is a pretty good article on the European picture, particularly how La Liga is so much better than everyone else (how fucking awful would 2 all-Spanish finals be?) and how disappointing and non-existent non-Bayern German teams are in Europe. Saying non-Bayern teams are non-existant is just wrong lol. Dortmund, Schalke and even Leverkusen are very present and regulary make runs past group stages. It's just that noone but Bayern actually wins the title. And also wtf at calling 1 semi-finalist not a success. Do these guys expect Wolfsburg to beat Real? Do they call Wolfsburg going to the quarter finals an "average day"? What they wrote is just wrong on so many levels. "I thought the drought was over and multiple Bundesliga teams could make deep runs in Europe each year from now on" Oh ok, i suppose CL quarterfinals, El quarterfinals is not a deep run. OK then. They probably call Bundesliga bad if Dortmund wins the CL next year because we had 5 teams in the CL group stages and only 1 team won the title. No, the quarters aren't a deep run. Over the past several years, we've ridiculed the PL for being so bad in Europe, and they've had teams in the quarters. Double-standard much? The quarters don't mean anything when you're trying to be one of the best leagues in Europe. Show nested quote +yeah that article is damn weak, especially the financial aspect. German teams are light years behind england, spain and italy, maybe france too. Bundesliga winner gets 45m€, 20th place at premier league gets 125m€. Theoretically Germany wins every year that "salary/performance" award. Money is a pretty weak excuse when the PL has been bested for so many years in Europe while making the most money. I'm pretty sure we've also talked about how almost all of the money in Spain goes to the Big 2, while the rest of the league still performs incredibly well in Europe compared to the rest. the simple fact is that the Bundesliga should be able to do better. Aside from Bayern being Bayern and Dortmund having 2 great runs in the CL, Bundesliga teams have woefully underperformed.
Yes quarters is a deep run. Semi spots are usually taken by Bayern, Barca and Real or Atleti. For all teams but Bayern or mayyyyyyybe BVB it is almost a miracle to make the semis considering who you have to face.
And no, its no double standard compared to English PL. The teams spend hundreds of millions and make quarter final runs. Now look at German teams. They achieve the same while spending like 30% of their money. Yes there are exceptions like City this year but still. We didnt even have BVB in CL and had 2 teams in quarters. Now next year we will possibly have an international experienced Leverkusen/ Schalke, BVB, Bayern. Thats a good start to get 3 quarter fjnalists next year
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On April 17 2016 03:52 BlackCompany wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2016 01:44 Stratos_speAr wrote:On April 16 2016 05:34 BlackCompany wrote:On April 16 2016 02:21 Stratos_speAr wrote:http://bundesligafanatic.com/come-on-bayern-uefa-coefficients-updated/I think this is a pretty good article on the European picture, particularly how La Liga is so much better than everyone else (how fucking awful would 2 all-Spanish finals be?) and how disappointing and non-existent non-Bayern German teams are in Europe. Saying non-Bayern teams are non-existant is just wrong lol. Dortmund, Schalke and even Leverkusen are very present and regulary make runs past group stages. It's just that noone but Bayern actually wins the title. And also wtf at calling 1 semi-finalist not a success. Do these guys expect Wolfsburg to beat Real? Do they call Wolfsburg going to the quarter finals an "average day"? What they wrote is just wrong on so many levels. "I thought the drought was over and multiple Bundesliga teams could make deep runs in Europe each year from now on" Oh ok, i suppose CL quarterfinals, El quarterfinals is not a deep run. OK then. They probably call Bundesliga bad if Dortmund wins the CL next year because we had 5 teams in the CL group stages and only 1 team won the title. No, the quarters aren't a deep run. Over the past several years, we've ridiculed the PL for being so bad in Europe, and they've had teams in the quarters. Double-standard much? The quarters don't mean anything when you're trying to be one of the best leagues in Europe. yeah that article is damn weak, especially the financial aspect. German teams are light years behind england, spain and italy, maybe france too. Bundesliga winner gets 45m€, 20th place at premier league gets 125m€. Theoretically Germany wins every year that "salary/performance" award. Money is a pretty weak excuse when the PL has been bested for so many years in Europe while making the most money. I'm pretty sure we've also talked about how almost all of the money in Spain goes to the Big 2, while the rest of the league still performs incredibly well in Europe compared to the rest. the simple fact is that the Bundesliga should be able to do better. Aside from Bayern being Bayern and Dortmund having 2 great runs in the CL, Bundesliga teams have woefully underperformed. Yes quarters is a deep run. Semi spots are usually taken by Bayern, Barca and Real or Atleti. For all teams but Bayern or mayyyyyyybe BVB it is almost a miracle to make the semis considering who you have to face. And no, its no double standard compared to English PL. The teams spend hundreds of millions and make quarter final runs. Now look at German teams. They achieve the same while spending like 30% of their money. Yes there are exceptions like City this year but still. We didnt even have BVB in CL and had 2 teams in quarters. Now next year we will possibly have an international experienced Leverkusen/ Schalke, BVB, Bayern. Thats a good start to get 3 quarter fjnalists next year
This is moving the goalposts. We keep saying, "But we're performing so well without all the PL money!" but that excuse was thrown out the window a couple seasons ago already. The PL's money hasn't made a damn difference for at least 6 years, and La Liga performs astoundingly without anywhere near the money of the PL (aside from RM/FCB, their teams make comparable money to the Bundesliga). PSG's money surely hasn't made a different either, so we really need to stop using it as a crutch.
And Leverkusen and Schalke aren't suddenly going to be "internationally experienced". They've both been in European competition (CL or EL) for 6 straight seasons, and they were still consistently in it before that. This argument might work for Wolfsburg, but that's still a stretch.
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On April 17 2016 05:43 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2016 03:52 BlackCompany wrote:On April 17 2016 01:44 Stratos_speAr wrote:On April 16 2016 05:34 BlackCompany wrote:On April 16 2016 02:21 Stratos_speAr wrote:http://bundesligafanatic.com/come-on-bayern-uefa-coefficients-updated/I think this is a pretty good article on the European picture, particularly how La Liga is so much better than everyone else (how fucking awful would 2 all-Spanish finals be?) and how disappointing and non-existent non-Bayern German teams are in Europe. Saying non-Bayern teams are non-existant is just wrong lol. Dortmund, Schalke and even Leverkusen are very present and regulary make runs past group stages. It's just that noone but Bayern actually wins the title. And also wtf at calling 1 semi-finalist not a success. Do these guys expect Wolfsburg to beat Real? Do they call Wolfsburg going to the quarter finals an "average day"? What they wrote is just wrong on so many levels. "I thought the drought was over and multiple Bundesliga teams could make deep runs in Europe each year from now on" Oh ok, i suppose CL quarterfinals, El quarterfinals is not a deep run. OK then. They probably call Bundesliga bad if Dortmund wins the CL next year because we had 5 teams in the CL group stages and only 1 team won the title. No, the quarters aren't a deep run. Over the past several years, we've ridiculed the PL for being so bad in Europe, and they've had teams in the quarters. Double-standard much? The quarters don't mean anything when you're trying to be one of the best leagues in Europe. yeah that article is damn weak, especially the financial aspect. German teams are light years behind england, spain and italy, maybe france too. Bundesliga winner gets 45m€, 20th place at premier league gets 125m€. Theoretically Germany wins every year that "salary/performance" award. Money is a pretty weak excuse when the PL has been bested for so many years in Europe while making the most money. I'm pretty sure we've also talked about how almost all of the money in Spain goes to the Big 2, while the rest of the league still performs incredibly well in Europe compared to the rest. the simple fact is that the Bundesliga should be able to do better. Aside from Bayern being Bayern and Dortmund having 2 great runs in the CL, Bundesliga teams have woefully underperformed. Yes quarters is a deep run. Semi spots are usually taken by Bayern, Barca and Real or Atleti. For all teams but Bayern or mayyyyyyybe BVB it is almost a miracle to make the semis considering who you have to face. And no, its no double standard compared to English PL. The teams spend hundreds of millions and make quarter final runs. Now look at German teams. They achieve the same while spending like 30% of their money. Yes there are exceptions like City this year but still. We didnt even have BVB in CL and had 2 teams in quarters. Now next year we will possibly have an international experienced Leverkusen/ Schalke, BVB, Bayern. Thats a good start to get 3 quarter fjnalists next year This is moving the goalposts. We keep saying, "But we're performing so well without all the PL money!" but that excuse was thrown out the window a couple seasons ago already. The PL's money hasn't made a damn difference for at least 6 years, and La Liga performs astoundingly without anywhere near the money of the PL (aside from RM/FCB, their teams make comparable money to the Bundesliga). PSG's money surely hasn't made a different either, so we really need to stop using it as a crutch. And Leverkusen and Schalke aren't suddenly going to be "internationally experienced". They've both been in European competition (CL or EL) for 6 straight seasons, and they were still consistently in it before that. This argument might work for Wolfsburg, but that's still a stretch.
I may have worded that poorly: i was trying to say that i expect a ro8/16 run from Schalke/Leverkusen because they already are experienced - which would leave the german league with possibly 3 teams in the ro8. Which is pretty amazing i think.
Sure money hasn't made that much of a difference in the last years but i still measure success with it. If you achieve the same result while spending twice as much then 1 team is clearly better (not in terms of pure results) than the other. That's not how everybody might value it but that's my view on it.
I think our difference is that i think a ro8 is a deep and successful run for everybody but Bayern from Germany. That's why we probably wont agree on this :p
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all this Bundesliga bashing... wow
Yes, La Liga is the best. No doubt.
Yes, Bundesliga is 2nd. Recent results show that. 5 year ranking doesn't lie either.
Yes, Premier League has the most money and probably the worst managers (and Kloppo)
These are pretty much facts,
Dunno where you are getting the room to even argue about that ^^
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Netherlands13554 Posts
Premier League doesn't have the worst managers, just the worst club directors. No vision or unity in the clubs at all, except for maybe clubs like Arsenal and Tottenham (it's no suprise Tottenham has a few good young English players in their first squad). Rest is just short-term throwing money at problems. The reason why Spanish teams are better is because they are better strategically and technical and that's because their style and everything is familiar throughout the club structure. Youth players fit seamlessly in the first team when they become good enough because the youth teams prepare the youngsters to play in the first team. Not because they've got better players or anything.
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Youth CL Final in 17 minutes.
HYPE!
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On April 18 2016 16:22 Harris1st wrote:
all this Bundesliga bashing... wow
Yes, La Liga is the best. No doubt.
Yes, Bundesliga is 2nd. Recent results show that. 5 year ranking doesn't lie either.
Yes, Premier League has the most money and probably the worst managers (and Kloppo)
These are pretty much facts,
Dunno where you are getting the room to even argue about that ^^
Two good teams does not a good league make.
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EPT
