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im not saying what any of those players did is right, but all you guys sitting behind your desk shittalking them for trying to save on their taxes are full of shit.
any one of you would have done the same in the same position as them. there is not a single company or individual in the world that doesnt try to pay less taxes through any method they feel will probably go unnoticed. this could be something simple as changing figures on a set of financial statements to organising complex entities to 'hide' your money. messi and the rest of the players were doing pretty much what every other single person tries to do, they just happened to get caught.
also any argument that rich people avoiding taxes is doing a disservice to the rest of the country by not providing for those in need, lets get real. the main problem with with governments isnt the lack of funds, its the idiotic distribution of the resources they have, which cause rich people to want to stop giving their money away even more.
this has gotten so off topic though lol
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Norway28796 Posts
no I wouldn't. Don't fucking accuse me of wanting to evade taxes. I think people who make 8 digit figure salaries and still are greedy enough to try to evade taxes are fucking scum. I also completely disagree with your latter point; I think lacking redistribution of wealth is a much much bigger problem than wealthy people having to give away a 'too big' portion of their income.
The part of your post I agree with is that it is indeed entirely off-topic, but I am in pretty extreme disagreement with your statement that 'any one of us would do the same in the same position as them' (unless by same position you mean having same genetic makeup and experiences through life, in which case I would actually be them, and then I would indeed act the same way), and I didn't want to leave that unanswered. Imo tax evasion is in many ways actually worse than bank robbery, because you're likely to hurt more people who have less. (This does vary some depending on country, but no, Spain is not sufficiently corrupt for poor people to see no benefit from taxed money).
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On July 07 2016 17:08 evilfatsh1t wrote:
im not saying what any of those players did is right, but all you guys sitting behind your desk shittalking them for trying to save on their taxes are full of shit.
any one of you would have done the same in the same position as them. there is not a single company or individual in the world that doesnt try to pay less taxes through any method they feel will probably go unnoticed. this could be something simple as changing figures on a set of financial statements to organising complex entities to 'hide' your money. messi and the rest of the players were doing pretty much what every other single person tries to do, they just happened to get caught.
also any argument that rich people avoiding taxes is doing a disservice to the rest of the country by not providing for those in need, lets get real. the main problem with with governments isnt the lack of funds, its the idiotic distribution of the resources they have, which cause rich people to want to stop giving their money away even more.
this has gotten so off topic though lol
I earn a shit ton less than Messi, I still give nearly half my income in taxes. If I disclaimed random shit and got maybe like 20-30 percent back. No one would notice. Idont make enough to get audited.
I think about all the nice things I could do with my money if I dodged some of them ? I still pay ?
Again I geniunely believe that Messi was either misguided or just didnt know. But someone is at fault. I will point out again though that lots of players in the capital do this aswell Xabi Alonso and Raul are two big examples and no is prosecuting them so the push for prosecution on Barca players is purely political.
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On July 07 2016 18:20 Liquid`Drone wrote:
no I wouldn't. Don't fucking accuse me of wanting to evade taxes. I think people who make 8 digit figure salaries and still are greedy enough to try to evade taxes are fucking scum. I also completely disagree with your latter point; I think lacking redistribution of wealth is a much much bigger problem than wealthy people having to give away a 'too big' portion of their income.
The part of your post I agree with is that it is indeed entirely off-topic, but I am in pretty extreme disagreement with your statement that 'any one of us would do the same in the same position as them' (unless by same position you mean having same genetic makeup and experiences through life, in which case I would actually be them, and then I would indeed act the same way), and I didn't want to leave that unanswered. Imo tax evasion is in many ways actually worse than bank robbery, because you're likely to hurt more people who have less. (This does vary some depending on country, but no, Spain is not sufficiently corrupt for poor people to see no benefit from taxed money).
i respect your attempt to uphold your morals and values, but get rich and make 8 digits like they do and you will change your stance i guarantee it.
how do i know? because i work and live in an environment where im practically surrounded by people who all live in the top 1% of the world. im not trying to brag, its a statement i have to make as a reference point to how much i see this stuff happening.
you cant go and accuse the entire top 1% of the world as scum when id be willing to bet my left nut that most of these people have better minds and hearts than 90% of the world and they do and give more than enough back to any community where they are held in high regard and have sufficient influence. aside from the very rare kardashians and dan bilzerians of the world, most of these people are in the 1% for a reason. im not sure if its ignorance, arrogance or just rage in general, but i highly doubt any of them would appreciate being called scum by someone who probably couldnt even fathom what its like to have that kind of wealth and see it taken from them only to be used stupidly.
if you can find me a person who makes figures in the mid-high 6 digits even, and isnt finding ways to reduce the amount of tax they pay then i will take back everything i said.
as we agreed, this is off topic and i didnt wanna post further but i felt your reply merited a reply of its own. this is my last post on this in this thread now
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I have never read such bullshit in this thread evilfatshit, congrats.
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On July 07 2016 20:01 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2016 18:20 Liquid`Drone wrote:
no I wouldn't. Don't fucking accuse me of wanting to evade taxes. I think people who make 8 digit figure salaries and still are greedy enough to try to evade taxes are fucking scum. I also completely disagree with your latter point; I think lacking redistribution of wealth is a much much bigger problem than wealthy people having to give away a 'too big' portion of their income.
The part of your post I agree with is that it is indeed entirely off-topic, but I am in pretty extreme disagreement with your statement that 'any one of us would do the same in the same position as them' (unless by same position you mean having same genetic makeup and experiences through life, in which case I would actually be them, and then I would indeed act the same way), and I didn't want to leave that unanswered. Imo tax evasion is in many ways actually worse than bank robbery, because you're likely to hurt more people who have less. (This does vary some depending on country, but no, Spain is not sufficiently corrupt for poor people to see no benefit from taxed money). i respect your attempt to uphold your morals and values, but get rich and make 8 digits like they do and you will change your stance i guarantee it. how do i know? because i work and live in an environment where im practically surrounded by people who all live in the top 1% of the world. im not trying to brag, its a statement i have to make as a reference point to how much i see this stuff happening. you cant go and accuse the entire top 1% of the world as scum when id be willing to bet my left nut that most of these people have better minds and hearts than 90% of the world and they do and give more than enough back to any community where they are held in high regard and have sufficient influence. aside from the very rare kardashians and dan bilzerians of the world, most of these people are in the 1% for a reason. im not sure if its ignorance, arrogance or just rage in general, but i highly doubt any of them would appreciate being called scum by someone who probably couldnt even fathom what its like to have that kind of wealth and see it taken from them only to be used stupidly. if you can find me a person who makes figures in the mid-high 6 digits even, and isnt finding ways to reduce the amount of tax they pay then i will take back everything i said. as we agreed, this is off topic and i didnt wanna post further but i felt your reply merited a reply of its own. this is my last post on this in this thread now '
Finding ways to legitimately disclaim on your taxes is not the same as dodging taxes. I find ways to get returns to. I use everything I can but I dont try to cheat the system either. There is a difference between mitigating what you owe legally and outright just evading taxes.
Sadly as much as I am Messi fanboy there isnt much argument to be made that what he did isnt wrong and I think the sentencing was fair considering the implications of what it pans out to.
What I will repeat over and over again is that the prosecutor if he so fond of upholding the law to this degree needs to start putting everybody else to the sword aswell. Which clearly isnt the case.
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On July 07 2016 20:14 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2016 20:01 evilfatsh1t wrote:On July 07 2016 18:20 Liquid`Drone wrote:
no I wouldn't. Don't fucking accuse me of wanting to evade taxes. I think people who make 8 digit figure salaries and still are greedy enough to try to evade taxes are fucking scum. I also completely disagree with your latter point; I think lacking redistribution of wealth is a much much bigger problem than wealthy people having to give away a 'too big' portion of their income.
The part of your post I agree with is that it is indeed entirely off-topic, but I am in pretty extreme disagreement with your statement that 'any one of us would do the same in the same position as them' (unless by same position you mean having same genetic makeup and experiences through life, in which case I would actually be them, and then I would indeed act the same way), and I didn't want to leave that unanswered. Imo tax evasion is in many ways actually worse than bank robbery, because you're likely to hurt more people who have less. (This does vary some depending on country, but no, Spain is not sufficiently corrupt for poor people to see no benefit from taxed money). i respect your attempt to uphold your morals and values, but get rich and make 8 digits like they do and you will change your stance i guarantee it. how do i know? because i work and live in an environment where im practically surrounded by people who all live in the top 1% of the world. im not trying to brag, its a statement i have to make as a reference point to how much i see this stuff happening. you cant go and accuse the entire top 1% of the world as scum when id be willing to bet my left nut that most of these people have better minds and hearts than 90% of the world and they do and give more than enough back to any community where they are held in high regard and have sufficient influence. aside from the very rare kardashians and dan bilzerians of the world, most of these people are in the 1% for a reason. im not sure if its ignorance, arrogance or just rage in general, but i highly doubt any of them would appreciate being called scum by someone who probably couldnt even fathom what its like to have that kind of wealth and see it taken from them only to be used stupidly. if you can find me a person who makes figures in the mid-high 6 digits even, and isnt finding ways to reduce the amount of tax they pay then i will take back everything i said. as we agreed, this is off topic and i didnt wanna post further but i felt your reply merited a reply of its own. this is my last post on this in this thread now ' Finding ways to legitimately disclaim on your taxes is not the same as dodging taxes. I find ways to get returns to. I use everything I can but I dont try to cheat the system either. There is a difference between mitigating what you owe legally and outright just evading taxes. Sadly as much as I am Messi fanboy there isnt much argument to be made that what he did isnt wrong and I think the sentencing was fair considering the implications of what it pans out to. What I will repeat over and over again is that the prosecutor if he so fond of upholding the law to this degree needs to start putting everybody else to the sword aswell. Which clearly isnt the case.
Now, with this I can agree.
Back to topic:
Rumor: Mou wants Pogba, ready to pay 90-100 mil for him
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Does anyone seriously think Messi has ever read one single page of any of his contracts or his tax declaration? Outside of the blind haters I mean. If anyone thinks so then that's kinda funny I guess. Hell I'm not even sure he ever read a legit book.
I could also go on about how everyone and their mother cheats the sytem the best they can in Spain, and how I personally do it because of both political and economical reasons. But that's a whole new topic that doesn't belong in this thread... and I can't be arsed.
It's pretty obvious that the reason Mascherano has been thinking about leaving Barça for a while is exactly the same as Messi's. Barcelona players are not "protected" from jail time like other players and will actually go to jail next time if they are found guilty. This is something that's out of their control and makes them nervous, so they think about moving to greener pastures like England or Italy.
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On July 06 2016 22:52 Zinnwaldite wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2016 21:50 Ysellian wrote:On July 06 2016 12:20 city42 wrote:On July 06 2016 11:15 aseq wrote:On July 05 2016 22:49 city42 wrote:
Can any Eredivisie watchers give their opinion on Vincent Janssen? His goalscoring record is amazing for his age, but after Jozy Altidore and Afonso Alves i'm a bit wary of trusting those numbers. I think he's exactly in their league - really promising, but it's impossible to say much about the future. Altidore, Alves and Memphis have showed that being amazing in the Eredivisie doesn't mean much - it's still a gamble. If the player can adjust to the pace and the physical type of play, he'll do well. But players like Eriksen and Suarez turned out to be solid acquisitions, so it's hard to tell. Yeah, it's easy to point out flops from the Eredivisie (de Jong x 2, Kezman, etc.) but the league has also produced incredible attacking talent, so I'm torn on Janssen. It looks as if he's going to end up at Spurs so I hope he can provide competition for Kane, who has been overplayed and burnt out lately. I could be deluding myself but judging purely by highlight videos, I see a little van Nistelrooy in him. I think it is way too soon for Janssen to go to the EPL and I wouldn't get my hopes up. He has 1 season at the highest level in Netherlands and he is already 22 which is old for youngsters in this league. In comparison one of the best youth players at my club is 21 and has played 4 full seasons at top level. I think he can become a solid striker like Huntelaar, but I doubt he is ever reaching van Nisterooy's level. I could be wrong though, but I've been pretty spot-on on who was going to make it and who wasn't lately. Nistelrooy was a fairly late bloomer was he not? I don't really remember too well as it was a long time ago. I think he was 22 the first season he really racked up a ton of goals in a season.
The Eredivisie then can't be compared to what it is now though. 22 was normal for good young players to break through then, but nowadays it's old.
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On July 07 2016 20:01 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2016 18:20 Liquid`Drone wrote:
no I wouldn't. Don't fucking accuse me of wanting to evade taxes. I think people who make 8 digit figure salaries and still are greedy enough to try to evade taxes are fucking scum. I also completely disagree with your latter point; I think lacking redistribution of wealth is a much much bigger problem than wealthy people having to give away a 'too big' portion of their income.
The part of your post I agree with is that it is indeed entirely off-topic, but I am in pretty extreme disagreement with your statement that 'any one of us would do the same in the same position as them' (unless by same position you mean having same genetic makeup and experiences through life, in which case I would actually be them, and then I would indeed act the same way), and I didn't want to leave that unanswered. Imo tax evasion is in many ways actually worse than bank robbery, because you're likely to hurt more people who have less. (This does vary some depending on country, but no, Spain is not sufficiently corrupt for poor people to see no benefit from taxed money). i respect your attempt to uphold your morals and values, but get rich and make 8 digits like they do and you will change your stance i guarantee it. how do i know? because i work and live in an environment where im practically surrounded by people who all live in the top 1% of the world. im not trying to brag, its a statement i have to make as a reference point to how much i see this stuff happening. you cant go and accuse the entire top 1% of the world as scum when id be willing to bet my left nut that most of these people have better minds and hearts than 90% of the world and they do and give more than enough back to any community where they are held in high regard and have sufficient influence. aside from the very rare kardashians and dan bilzerians of the world, most of these people are in the 1% for a reason. im not sure if its ignorance, arrogance or just rage in general, but i highly doubt any of them would appreciate being called scum by someone who probably couldnt even fathom what its like to have that kind of wealth and see it taken from them only to be used stupidly. if you can find me a person who makes figures in the mid-high 6 digits even, and isnt finding ways to reduce the amount of tax they pay then i will take back everything i said. as we agreed, this is off topic and i didnt wanna post further but i felt your reply merited a reply of its own. this is my last post on this in this thread now
Most people will try to reduce their taxes yes but not like Messi did. I worked in private banking for a while and most people didn't really want to avoid taxes by off shoring and the like. There's quite the difference between what Messi did and what most people do to lessen the tax burden.
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On July 07 2016 20:25 Salteador Neo wrote:
Does anyone seriously think Messi has ever read one single page of any of his contracts or his tax declaration? Outside of the blind haters I mean. If anyone thinks so then that's kinda funny I guess. Hell I'm not even sure he ever read a legit book.
I could also go on about how everyone and their mother cheats the sytem the best they can in Spain, and how I personally do it because of both political and economical reasons. But that's a whole new topic that doesn't belong in this thread... and I can't be arsed.
It's pretty obvious that the reason Mascherano has been thinking about leaving Barça for a while is exactly the same as Messi's. Barcelona players are not "protected" from jail time like other players and will actually go to jail next time if they are found guilty. This is something that's out of their control and makes them nervous, so they think about moving to greener pastures like England or Italy.
You think they won't go to jail if they dodge taxes in England....?
And what kind of reason to leave Barca is that anyway? 'Im not protected if I break the law'... cry me a river mate. In what way is this out of their control? Don't cheat taxes and you will have no problems, its simple.
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Yo Leo, just come to Gala and have a relaxed easy time in Turkey where tax is nothing more than a word 
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On July 07 2016 20:52 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2016 20:25 Salteador Neo wrote:
Does anyone seriously think Messi has ever read one single page of any of his contracts or his tax declaration? Outside of the blind haters I mean. If anyone thinks so then that's kinda funny I guess. Hell I'm not even sure he ever read a legit book.
I could also go on about how everyone and their mother cheats the sytem the best they can in Spain, and how I personally do it because of both political and economical reasons. But that's a whole new topic that doesn't belong in this thread... and I can't be arsed.
It's pretty obvious that the reason Mascherano has been thinking about leaving Barça for a while is exactly the same as Messi's. Barcelona players are not "protected" from jail time like other players and will actually go to jail next time if they are found guilty. This is something that's out of their control and makes them nervous, so they think about moving to greener pastures like England or Italy. You think they won't go to jail if they dodge taxes in England....? And what kind of reason to leave Barca is that anyway? 'Im not protected if I break the law'... cry me a river mate. In what way is this out of their control? Don't cheat taxes and you will have no problems, its simple.
About the first question, no idea tbh. Maybe they do think so? Masche has been thinking about going to Italy for a while. Alves just went there and he has also been accused of being a tax debtor. How many players have had jail sentences in England in the last twenty years? I don't mean actually going to jail of course, just sentences that read jail time or pay X (?). Surely there have been a few hundreds of them who dodged taxes.
About the reasoning, I thought it was quite obvious. It's out of their control because they have no idea about how to do their taxes. And even if they decided to study their asses off about economy (lulz) they would still hire advisors to help them avoid paying as much as possible while staying inside the law. Maybe I'm wrong here and I'm getting confused about wtf is the difference between avoiding taxes or dodging taxes, but afaik it's pretty simple.
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Guys, mabye make a thread in "General" about taxes and tax evasion??
Kinda getting sick of it tbh
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Tax avoidance ≠ tax evasion. One is legal, the other is criminal. I for one condemn people that try to hide and avoid taxes.
Ignorance is never an excuse. The very likely fact that messi signed those papers implies that he has knowledge of it. That's the purpose of signing documents. Ignorance may reduce his crime, but he is still guilty nonetheless.
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Normal football season is over so discussing Messi's legal affairs is fair game IMO. The discussion over the morality of tax evasion is really silly, I don't think those advocating that 'everyone would do it in his place' understand the implications of accepting that that sort of behavior is morally acceptable - and I'm a libertarian. While more people do it, I really doubt that it is the norm, however. These days this sort of thing is getting easier and easier to find out and it's probably not worth the risk anymore.
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I think it's safe to assume a significant part of rich football players (or just rich people in general) evade tax to a certain extent, and Messi was one of the unlucky ones to get caught. I wonder how many players started slowly moving their money back from offshore accounts after the case started.
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I don't think that is safe to assume at all. I doubt most people will intentionally break the law just to safe tax money. There will be some yes but I don't know if it's a significant part. Although it does look like it's more prevalent in some countries than in others. You can legally off shore btw.
But who the hell really knows anyway.
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On July 08 2016 00:15 RvB wrote:
I don't think that is safe to assume at all. I doubt most people will intentionally break the law just to safe tax money. There will be some yes but I don't know if it's a significant part. Although it does look like it's more prevalent in some countries than in others. You can legally off shore btw.
But who the hell really knows anyway.
With stuff like the Panama papers i guess more and more people will know.
Btw people this is not about being clumsy in filling out tax forms. This is about earning millions in sponsorship money on tax havens in Latin America in order to avoid taxes due in Spain. Even assuming he does not understand what he's signing I'm pretty sure he must've wondered at some point why he's got 7M lying around in Belize.
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maybe because the people in Belize are such Messi fans and sponsorship money there is higher than anywhere else in the world? You never know!
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EPT
