EPTugh running
TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 - Page 120
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tofucake
Hyrule19144 Posts
ugh running | ||
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FiWiFaKi
Canada9859 Posts
Currently I do a 4 workout cycle every 5 days. Day 2 has chest, Day 4 has triceps (as some minor additional stuff to back). At the moment for chest day, I like to do decline bench (2 warm up sets (10-12 reps, 70%~ of working weight), 4 heavy sets for 5-8 reps) + incline dumbbell (1 warm up set, 80% of working weight, then 4 regular sets for 6-9 reps) and sometimes add in incline/decline flies as well for 4-5 sets. For triceps I just it short and sweet as I want to make sure I can work do shoulder press the next day, generally 5 sets of skull crushers (with E-Z bar) and 3 sets of tricep rope extensions. I'm hoping to get some input about about decline bench press or dips, and what value you guys see in them. When I used to workout seriously 4 years ago my main chest exercise was decline bench, and my main tricep exercise was dips (yes, not a practical combination), and naturally since the two are so similar, I got massively good at them. However, I'm pretty sure that weighted dips are what caused my shoulder discomfort for plenty of time, as I found it difficult to maximize range of motion (which I could go very low if I wanted to, like even 30 degrees below parallel without it hurting during the exercise) yet not cause injury. It just seems the exercise by nature puts a lot of stress on your shoulders. Currently, I don't have a dip station, but just trying it off of a bench and going to 90 degree bend in my arms has caused me some discomfort, since the bend between my torso is around 100 degrees when just doing it with the bench. Second thing is the decline bench press, they are super similar exercises, and I'm doing flat, so how much value do you guys see in mixing it up? Decline bench press is a bit more tedious to do for me since I need to add the leg attachment, and I get less range of motion with it, but just trying to get input, since on paper I don't really do anything to hit the lower chest? Also, one more thing. When I used to go to a public gym, I used to see quite a few people doing pullovers (barbell, dumbbell, decline, straight arm, bent arm, etc) of some sort. Any opinions on these? Too isolation for your tastes? When I tried them two weeks back with a straight arm barbell, it just killed my triceps, and that was the most difficult part for me, and it also hurt my chest in like a stretched too far way (my fault for lack of flexibility I imagine), not a tiring out the muscles way. Any value in this lift if you're doing the standard overhead press, front + lat raises, and the aforementioned chest and tricep stuff? I'm making good progress in my lifts, (squat, OHDP, and barbell curl PR's today, woo), but just trying to be optimal, though I'm sure they'd be minor efficiency gains at best. I just haven't found much info on decline bench press online, and really analyzing it's value besides stuff like this: Also if you recommend dips, I'd really appreciate a link to some super comprehensive tutorial video/book/article that covers every little aspect, as it's by far the most frightening relatively common exercise I can think of doing. | ||
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tofucake
Hyrule19144 Posts
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GoTuNk!
Chile4591 Posts
Never, ever, dip on a bench, it fucks your shoulder as you are already noticing. Get some parallels or a dip station online (I recomend the latter cause it's more stable). For dips (weighted at least), you need to keep your shoulder downs and back (opposite of shrugs), remain upright and do not let your elbows flare; leaning foward to lift more weight is an ego thing: do not try to use your chest on dips, it works as an assistance muscle. Opposite form mass reps on ring dips (for Crossfit :d) Mandatory video: https://www.instagram.com/p/BAnYpm_NIQl/?taken-by=fyuseff | ||
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FiWiFaKi
Canada9859 Posts
On July 09 2016 23:42 GoTuNk! wrote: I would never do decline, man boobs suck. Never, ever, dip on a bench, it fucks your shoulder as you are already noticing. Get some parallels or a dip station online (I recomend the latter cause it's more stable). For dips (weighted at least), you need to keep your shoulder downs and back (opposite of shrugs), remain upright and do not let your elbows flare; leaning foward to lift more weight is an ego thing: do not try to use your chest on dips, it works as an assistance muscle. Opposite form mass reps on ring dips (for Crossfit :d) Mandatory video: https://www.instagram.com/p/BAnYpm_NIQl/?taken-by=fyuseff I only tried it on a bench to see how my shoulders feel from it, and of course would not do it as a normal thing! I have a wonderful gym equipment store nearby, so no need to go online. Space in my basement is fairly limited, and hence is there enough value from in it? I have this tendency to always go for these crazy ROM's on most of my lifts, I want to see that's likely where my issue was in the past, and not just dips not being good for my body, idk though. Back in the day I did 90lb weighted dips for 8~ rep sets, I angled my chest slightly down, just following form that I saw some stronger people doing, it was definitely closer to a tricep dip than a chest dip though. So you'd say never do chest dips? As chest dips to me look almost identical to decline bench press in what they're doing with the exception of less stress on your shoulders. Also, how valuable do you see the tricep dip as, is it something you regularly add to your routine? As from following the thread in the past, it doesn't look like two many people here do it. + Show Spoiler [Chest vs Tricep Dip] + If I was to get a dip station, it'd be this here: Thing 1 As this is hella large, even though the leg raise stuff would be nice (I have a solid pull-up bar on my squat rack with many different positions) : Thing 2 Though those parallel bars would force me to work on my L-sit if I wanted to use them, which might be good. L-sits are not easy for people who squat a lot T__T. | ||
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FiWiFaKi
Canada9859 Posts
On July 09 2016 21:04 tofucake wrote: Have you read Becoming a Supple Leopard? I have not, is this the go to and golden standard book for this stuff? The only exercise book I've ever really read was Starting Strength, and the just articles online, which as you know is a difficult way to do things, since you have to be really good at picking and choosing information (which is difficult when you're there to learn). edit: My bad, I meant to add this to my previous post. | ||
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FFGenerations
7088 Posts
idk how much money you have. you can get a dip+pullup+ab leg raise 3 in 1 thing . but you probably already have a method for pullups and for abs like this but i imagine this one is no good , doesnt look like theres much space https://www.amazon.co.uk/HARDCASTLE-POWER-TOWER-STATION-RAISE/dp/B00EAN0AP8 oh look you can just get one of these too https://www.amazon.co.uk/tinkertonk-Station-Exercise-Workout-Capacity/dp/B01EO6VVM6/ref=sr_1_2?s=sports&ie=UTF8&qid=1468082998&sr=1-2&keywords=dip station it looks a bit wide maybe | ||
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tofucake
Hyrule19144 Posts
On July 10 2016 00:52 FiWiFaKi wrote: I have not, is this the go to and golden standard book for this stuff? The only exercise book I've ever really read was Starting Strength, and the just articles online, which as you know is a difficult way to do things, since you have to be really good at picking and choosing information (which is difficult when you're there to learn). edit: My bad, I meant to add this to my previous post. pretty much yeah | ||
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FiWiFaKi
Canada9859 Posts
Thanks, looks like my kind of book - I'll give a few chapters a reading today. On July 10 2016 01:46 FFGenerations wrote: dips are awesome , you can do them following bench to leach out your last remaining breath idk how much money you have. you can get a dip+pullup+ab leg raise 3 in 1 thing . but you probably already have a method for pullups and for abs like this but i imagine this one is no good , doesnt look like theres much space https://www.amazon.co.uk/HARDCASTLE-POWER-TOWER-STATION-RAISE/dp/B00EAN0AP8 oh look you can just get one of these too https://www.amazon.co.uk/tinkertonk-Station-Exercise-Workout-Capacity/dp/B01EO6VVM6/ref=sr_1_2?s=sports&ie=UTF8&qid=1468082998&sr=1-2&keywords=dip station it looks a bit wide maybe Thanks, yeah. Similar stuff to what is in my local retailer (though a bit cheaper obviously). I have a good idea of a good setup that would work in my home gym, it's more about the usefulness of it... Since it'd add an extra station to my gym for like 1 exercise, 2 I suppose if I do leg lifts as well. I think I mentioned before, currently I have: -Power rack and a fully adjustable bench (-20 degrees to 90 degrees, also has leg attachment for sit-ups, decline bench, etc) -Olympic bar (45lbs) and plates (300lbs total), and storage rack (I'll buy two 45lb plates soon, it's enough for my working set deadlifts, but not for 1rm). -Pull-up bar on squat rack with standard straight bar, close neutral grip, wide neutral grip, and angled wide grip. -5-70lb powerblock sport 9.0 adjustable dumbbells (in 2.5lbs increments except 12.5, 22.5, 32.5 etc, possible to upgrade to 90lb, but would need new stand too. -One pulley system, with attachment at bottom or top, loaded with standard plates (used for cable rows, and pull downs), I have the triangle attachment for close grip rows, wide grip pull down attachment, and tricep rope attachment. -15lb EZ bar, only use for skull crushers at the moment. -20lb and 30lb resistance band (use it for shoulder health stretches and exercises) -Yoga mat to be comfortable while doing core work. So for me it's the question of will it add benefit to my workouts with what I have to work with now. My current purchases I kind of want is a 10 resistance band set of 10-100lbs and a little holder for them (plus 3 sets of handles), which costs around 90-100CAD. Also I want to get a weighted vest, 40lbs, this one specifically. I know most people like belts compared to vests (and they like to say you'll grow out of them), but lets be real, how many people really do 40lb weighted wide grip pull ups for 5 sets of 8. Pull ups definitely don't seem to get easier as you get stronger since you gain mass at a comparable level (if anything they get more difficult). I also like the idea of being able to do push-ups and the dozens of variations like hand stand push ups with them too. If I end up doing dips, that'd be an argument to get a dip belt. Outside of those 3 aforementioned things (with the exception of some other 15lb bars or other cable attachments), everything else seems like a not good bang for buck, or just a complete and utter waste of money, for example: Battle Rope, Rings, Parallettes/Push up bars, Ab wheel, Kettlebells (I'm not a believer), Preacher curl attachment for my bench, Leg Extension/Curl Attachment (lol yeah no)... And then really the only other stuff left are the single station things, such as seated calf machine and hyperextension machines. | ||
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GoTuNk!
Chile4591 Posts
On July 10 2016 00:44 FiWiFaKi wrote: I only tried it on a bench to see how my shoulders feel from it, and of course would not do it as a normal thing! I have a wonderful gym equipment store nearby, so no need to go online. Space in my basement is fairly limited, and hence is there enough value from in it? I have this tendency to always go for these crazy ROM's on most of my lifts, I want to see that's likely where my issue was in the past, and not just dips not being good for my body, idk though. Back in the day I did 90lb weighted dips for 8~ rep sets, I angled my chest slightly down, just following form that I saw some stronger people doing, it was definitely closer to a tricep dip than a chest dip though. So you'd say never do chest dips? As chest dips to me look almost identical to decline bench press in what they're doing with the exception of less stress on your shoulders. Also, how valuable do you see the tricep dip as, is it something you regularly add to your routine? As from following the thread in the past, it doesn't look like two many people here do it. + Show Spoiler [Chest vs Tricep Dip] + If I was to get a dip station, it'd be this here: Thing 1 As this is hella large, even though the leg raise stuff would be nice (I have a solid pull-up bar on my squat rack with many different positions) : Thing 2 Though those parallel bars would force me to work on my L-sit if I wanted to use them, which might be good. L-sits are not easy for people who squat a lot T__T. I think the weighted dip (tricep dip) is the best pressing exercise after the bench press. I honestly believe you don't need anything other than paused (3-5 secs) benches with a proper arch to work your chest unless you wanna be a bodybuilder. | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
It's probably why you fucked your shoulders. Imbalanced. | ||
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FFGenerations
7088 Posts
On July 10 2016 03:35 FiWiFaKi wrote: Thanks, looks like my kind of book - I'll give a few chapters a reading today. Thanks, yeah. Similar stuff to what is in my local retailer (though a bit cheaper obviously). I have a good idea of a good setup that would work in my home gym, it's more about the usefulness of it... Since it'd add an extra station to my gym for like 1 exercise, 2 I suppose if I do leg lifts as well. . i think leg raises are a bit shit to be honest, although i havent tried them weighted , at no point have i thought "oh i should do some leg raises after dragonflags coz im missing out" so personally i would just get the super simple "dip only" bar (if anything). dips arent a necessity but i think they are cool for after benching to fuck yourself up in a different way vest looks awesome widen your grip on bench a lot (and pause reps like gotunk said) to work chest afaik. i think flies are popular, its like literally one of the things i've never done coz when i tried it i was like ... eh not happening lol. maybe its really good (if you start super light), idk i mean i started side raise stuff with like 5kg (cudnt do more, shoulder would snap out) and its one of my fav exercises now i mean it would be like bench -> wide grip bench -> dips -> flies and i'd probably be dead long before then (but with a home gym you can do anything right) also yeah dont forget what igne said , i do rows -> pullups and think they are suuuuuper important, especially since i dont do deadlifts currently | ||
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FiWiFaKi
Canada9859 Posts
On July 10 2016 06:17 IgnE wrote: I think you are too worried about bench and not doing enough back since you are doing triceps on back day and have a separate shoulder day. It's probably why you fucked your shoulders. Imbalanced. That was back before when my workouts were far different than they are now, I think my workout is relatively balanced atm, in order the exercises I do each day (roughly, I like changing things often), and how many sets I do, I include warm up sets, which vary between 0-2 depending on exercise, and intensity varies on exercise too, naturally my bicep curl warm up will be at 80-85%~ of working set weight, while my warm up squat weights will be 50-70%: Day 1: (legs, shoulders, biceps) Squats (x6), OHDP (x6), Standing Barbell Curls (x5), Front Raises & Lateral raises superset (x5 ea), Seated Hammer Curl (x3), Dumbbell reverse flyes (x3, laying on bench). Day 2 (chest and abs): Flat bench press (x6), Dumbbell weighted lunges (x4), Incline dumbbell press (x5), Flat/Incline Flyes (sometimes, x5), Decline weighted sit ups (3x15), Planks (40 sec front, 15 sec break, 30 sec side, 15 sec break, 30 sec side, do 3x), and/or some other core. Day 3: (miscellaneous) Squats (x6, if one day break between day 2 and day 3), One-arm dumbbell clean and press (or standard clean and press) (x5), Shrugs (x4), other forearm and grip, shoulder health with resistance bands (the standard stuff like elbow at side, and bringing forearm from side to front, other way, etc), hamstring mobility. Day 4: Deadlift, Back, Triceps: Deadlift (x3), Neutral Grip Pull ups (until I can't do 5+, atm it's usually 2-3 sets T__T), Neutral Grip Lat Pull downs (to complete a combined 6 sets with previous exercise, high reps of 8-10 here), Close-grip cable rows (x6), Wide grip lat pull downs (x4-5), Skull crushers (x5), laying dumbbell wide grip rows (x4, sometimes), cable rope tricep extensions (x3, to really feel that burn). So just keep in mind, this repeats every 5-6 days, I also find my back takes longer to recover than my chest, and well my legs aren't too happy about recovering this often either, but they're getting used to it and my squats are going up, so I'm happy there. Anyway, I'm kind of notorious for scope creep and adding more exercises as I go along, but really my workouts are quite long already 90-100 minutes, and I definitely don't want to add more, probably remove and optimize a couple things. From my viewpoint it's reasonably balanced though. | ||
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FiWiFaKi
Canada9859 Posts
On July 10 2016 06:47 FFGenerations wrote: i think leg raises are a bit shit to be honest, although i havent tried them weighted , at no point have i thought "oh i should do some leg raises after dragonflags coz im missing out" so personally i would just get the super simple "dip only" bar (if anything). dips arent a necessity but i think they are cool for after benching to fuck yourself up in a different way vest looks awesome widen your grip on bench a lot (and pause reps like gotunk said) to work chest afaik. i think flies are popular, its like literally one of the things i've never done coz when i tried it i was like ... eh not happening lol. maybe its really good (if you start super light), idk i mean i started side raise stuff with like 5kg (cudnt do more, shoulder would snap out) and its one of my fav exercises now i mean it would be like bench -> wide grip bench -> dips -> flies and i'd probably be dead long before then (but with a home gym you can do anything right) also yeah dont forget what igne said , i do rows -> pullups and think they are suuuuuper important, especially since i dont do deadlifts currently Thanks for input  I think the vest looks cool too.Yeah, I dunno that much about leg raises either, but I really don't feel like you need to do any ab work if your only goal is to lift (I think holding heavy weight high does it well enough), plus I think most lifters focusing on strength and muscle first and foremost don't even have the flexibility to do them. I just think it's useful for some calisthenics (I'd like to be able to hold an L-sit for 30+ seconds eventually), and good for general strength. Recently I've been very focused on good form, and lifting as high as I can isn't really a priority for me without A+ form.. Also, GoTunk, I don't really agree with arching your back - it's good if your goal is to lift a lot of weight as it makes your RoM shorter, and makes you essentially do a decline bench press. I've done a lot of reading on the topic (it's been of great interest to me), but doing decline bench press really messed up my range of motion. Before I had a 195lbs for sets decline bench with arching my back, but I'd struggle to do a one plate regular bench because I had absolutely no muscle at that lower position (165lbs going to 3-4~ inches above my chest was no problem). I'm not strong or anything right now, but with far less training I'm able to do full range of motion bench press of 155lbs in a controlled manner for many reps. Anyway, not trying to doubt you or anything, just wanted to share my experience about something I've looked at quite closely (I know you powerlift at least 2x more than me in almost anything). I've really learned to like flies as a lot, the key there like you said is start super light, and make sure the bend in your arm in the exact same each time. What I've seen people do it up too much, and then they have bend in their arms and it just looks silly, and then they straighten their arm at the top after they have a 90 degree bend in their arms and that's just working triceps at that point lol. And yep, side raises are exactly that. It's one of the only exercises I do with straight legs, because it's so damn easy to cheat in this exercise with momentum (and that's just asking for an injury). I think I started with 7.5lbs (I do 17.5lbs now for 8-10 reps, each rep taking 2.5~ seconds), and it's an amazing exercise if you are doing it with good form. Back four-five years ago, looking back, it's depressing how poorly I did these exercises, as well as back exercises because it's so easy to cheat on them (Like 30lb front raises with only a 60lb seated dumbbell press hah). | ||
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GoTuNk!
Chile4591 Posts
On July 10 2016 08:13 FiWiFaKi wrote: Thanks for input Yeah, I dunno that much about leg raises either, but I really don't feel like you need to do any ab work if your only goal is to lift (I think holding heavy weight high does it well enough), plus I think most lifters focusing on strength and muscle first and foremost don't even have the flexibility to do them. I just think it's useful for some calisthenics (I'd like to be able to hold an L-sit for 30+ seconds eventually), and good for general strength. Recently I've been very focused on good form, and lifting as high as I can isn't really a priority for me without A+ form.. Also, GoTunk, I don't really agree with arching your back - it's good if your goal is to lift a lot of weight as it makes your RoM shorter, and makes you essentially do a decline bench press. I've done a lot of reading on the topic (it's been of great interest to me), but doing decline bench press really messed up my range of motion. Before I had a 195lbs for sets decline bench with arching my back, but I'd struggle to do a one plate regular bench because I had absolutely no muscle at that lower position (165lbs going to 3-4~ inches above my chest was no problem). I'm not strong or anything right now, but with far less training I'm able to do full range of motion bench press of 155lbs in a controlled manner for many reps. Anyway, not trying to doubt you or anything, just wanted to share my experience about something I've looked at quite closely (I know you powerlift at least 2x more than me in almost anything). I've really learned to like flies as a lot, the key there like you said is start super light, and make sure the bend in your arm in the exact same each time. What I've seen people do it up too much, and then they have bend in their arms and it just looks silly, and then they straighten their arm at the top after they have a 90 degree bend in their arms and that's just working triceps at that point lol. And yep, side raises are exactly that. It's one of the only exercises I do with straight legs, because it's so damn easy to cheat in this exercise with momentum. I think I started with 7.5lbs (I do 17.5lbs now for 8-10 reps, each rep taking 2.5~ seconds), and it's an amazing exercise if you are doing it with good form. Back four-five years ago, looking back, it's depressing how poorly I did these exercises, as well as back exercises because it's so easy to cheat on them (Like 30lb front raises with only a 60lb seated dumbbell press hah). Yeah np, I'm currently doing crossfit though The bench arch is to keep your shoulders back, down and tight, which is key for safety. You should be arching your upper back for safety, lower back/tucked legs is optional. I think benching with a flat back is flat out dangerous. Also, moving more weight in a safer way is def conducive to getting bigger. | ||
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FFGenerations
7088 Posts
On July 10 2016 08:13 FiWiFaKi wrote: Thanks for input I think the vest looks cool too.Yeah, I dunno that much about leg raises either, but I really don't feel like you need to do any ab work if your only goal is to lift (I think holding heavy weight high does it well enough), oh believe me, starting dragonflags/abs was one of the best things i've done. the difference in strength is astounding . i dont do 100 rep situps, i do like 5 sets of dragonflags to max inbetween dumbell stuff like sideraises/curls. so they are super convenient to do, you just replace your rest periods with them. i dont do sports but just walking or getting out of bed with strong abs is pretty awesome. it also makes an insane difference to my squat but thats probably coz my form is ridiculously bad (altho im standing on 2 inch plates usually now to fix that) maybe ill try flies next sesh look i literally just made a video of me trying to do dragonflags to show you r o f l | ||
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DickMcFanny
Ireland1076 Posts
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
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FFGenerations
7088 Posts
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mordek
United States12705 Posts
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