EPTYou're improving at a pretty solid clip right now, don't think it will be terribly long till you crack 50 if you stay healthy and motivated.
Running/Cycling Thread - 2015 Edition - Page 4
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
You're improving at a pretty solid clip right now, don't think it will be terribly long till you crack 50 if you stay healthy and motivated. | ||
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N.geNuity
United States5111 Posts
but been feeling good so a day of rest is probably the healthiest thing to do, no need to pointlessly adhere to a run-every-day-of-the-month goal just to do it. EDIT 22 hours later: fucking hell, the one treadmill in my apartment complex is failing to turn on or anything >.>. also, for once someone else was in the tiny gym there and they said they couldn't "figure it out" either i guess I need to buy some lights or something to run when it's dark here, I'm not in a lit suburban neighborhood or anything. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
Also at this point it's getting super aggravating, keep having this low grade medial malleolar/base of achilles ache. Just enough to really keep me from feeling comfortable ramping up towards 40-60 mpw range and doing workouts. As much as I want to be doing running workouts right now and not cycling ones it's not worth risky an injury either. Still, other than not running quite as much as I would like the training is going quite well. | ||
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Don_Julio
2220 Posts
 On January 14 2015 15:25 N.geNuity wrote: So I've been starting the year off right but will not have my goal of running everyday as I got busy after work today with other obligations but been feeling good so a day of rest is probably the healthiest thing to do, no need to pointlessly adhere to a run-every-day-of-the-month goal just to do it. EDIT 22 hours later: fucking hell, the one treadmill in my apartment complex is failing to turn on or anything >.>. also, for once someone else was in the tiny gym there and they said they couldn't "figure it out" either i guess I need to buy some lights or something to run when it's dark here, I'm not in a lit suburban neighborhood or anything. Running every day isn't necessary to get better unless you're in the sub-elite range like Bonham. Rest is important. Regarding the light. I have a headlamp like this one: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://www.dhresource.com/albu_393392050_00-1.0x0/fishing-tool-headlamp-flashlight-high-power.jpg) It looks a little silly but works like a charm. I actually enjoy running in complete darkness with just the halo from my headlamp a few steps in front of me. _______________ Got new shoes. Mizuno Wave Rider 17. Felt great on the treadmill at the store and will test them outside tomorrow. God, I love my shoe guy. He really takes his time and makes really good prices for his regular customers. Wouldn't get the shoes much cheaper online. | ||
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Jetaap
France4814 Posts
To be fair i could have ran on tuesday but got discouraged by the rains and the cold... honestly i would probably have felt better if i went running anyway but sometimes it's really hard to leave the warmth and confort of your home when you're on your own . | ||
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Malinor
Germany4716 Posts
24:32min 1km 4:55,4 2km 4:56,7 3km 4:56,9 4km 4:57,1 5km 4:46,2 I didn't feel particularly well either. Next stop: 10k in 49:xx. | ||
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Jetaap
France4814 Posts
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Don_Julio
2220 Posts
On January 16 2015 23:47 Jetaap wrote: So i haven't been able to run much these past few days, but i've done 2 ski touring days (i don't know if the translation is accurate, got it from wikipedia) which i guess is somewhat similar ^^. To be fair i could have ran on tuesday but got discouraged by the rains and the cold... honestly i would probably have felt better if i went running anyway but sometimes it's really hard to leave the warmth and confort of your home when you're on your own . Ski touring is excellent cross training. But yeah to improve at running you need to run as you already have an excellent aerobic base with your background in swimming and cycling. The best way to get out of the door at bad weather days is to establish a habit and you know that it's not too bad once you have run for a couple of minutes. On January 17 2015 04:31 Malinor wrote: Finally... 25 months after my first try (which ended with a closed stadium and ice & snow on my alternative track), I broke 25minutes for a 5k. Many things contributed for this taking so long: new job, new town, weight gain, lazyness, whatever. But it doesn't matter now. Never give up :-) 24:32min 1km 4:55,4 2km 4:56,7 3km 4:56,9 4km 4:57,1 5km 4:46,2 I didn't feel particularly well either. Next stop: 10k in 49:xx. Well done and your splits are impressively even. The fast last split should give you confidence to break the 50 fairly soon especially on a fast course and in a real race environment). __________ So I have a question about training for my next 10k. I''ve worked my way up to a 60k/5days week and am pretty sure that I can keep this up (at least w/o workouts) but I have done almost no speed work. My first race of the season is today in nine weeks. It's not my big goal race but I want to break my PR of 42:10. I have no clue where I stand atm though. How should I proceed? 1. Reduce mileage a little (to 50k(?), maybe cutting a day) and start speedwork immediately or 2. Keep up the 60k and slowly implement speed work. My running days are tuesday, wednesday, thursday, saturday and long at sunday. I'll probably go for tuesday and thursday as my workout days with one for temporuns and one for intervalls/Fartlek. | ||
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Gjhc
Portugal161 Posts
You should improve your ability to run faster so that then you can run faster for longer, without training at a higher intensity than your race pace your improvement will be much slower. You need endurance to have a solid base but then you need to train speed so you can run faster and then train endurance at your new improved speed so that then you can keep your improved pace during the whole race. Obviously the relationship is not so linear but I think I made my point clear. You can start by just 1 day a week but in a couple weeks I'd say 2 days per week should work out good. Just my 2 cents  | ||
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ms2300
11 Posts
Now that I'm done with my introduction that somehow turned into sounding arrogant (sorry bout that), I just want to help out others with their training and have a good time talking about running. - How should I proceed? 1. Reduce mileage a little (to 50k(?), maybe cutting a day) and start speedwork immediately or 2. Keep up the 60k and slowly implement speed work. A good distinction to make here is that you have listed Fartleks and intervals under the same category of speed work. In reality, Fartleks should be ran with the same mentality of tempo runs otherwise they are kind of wasted. The most important part of the Fartleks is the initial acceleration up to pace and the resting pace of the "off" period; however with your goal being a 10k the acceleration doesn't really have an effect because that hits more into mile/800 training. Think of it this way, the "on" periods of the Fartleks should be ran just fast enough to get you tired, and the "off" periods should be ran as fast as you possibly can while still recovering enough for the next "on" period. Either way I do think that Fartleks should be your next step in training. Tempo runs are great for 2 mile-5k but fall kinda short the longer the distances get, my suggestion would be to dedicate one day as a hard day and to drop 15k or higher at a fairly fast pace for you. In addition, I would generally stay away from intervals for a while, it's very easy to get hurt/demotivated/simply-not-any-faster by doing some small detail wrong. The exception would be hill repeats, a ~300m hill is the right length and repeats on them build strength while keeping form intact. So to summarize my thoughts, base and strength are key and they both take time. Base is best built by consistently running and slowly progressing with longer runs and faster paces while strength, most likely, will be most efficiently built through 1-2 Fartlek days a week (one can always be harder than the other) and maybe some hill repeats. I would keep your mileage stable but if you need to move to 6 days a week and have shorter recovery runs to compensate that wouldn't be a problem at all. Honestly whatever feels the best and is the most fun would be what I would recommend, even if that means blowing off 100% of what I'm spewing. You should improve your ability to run faster so that then you can run faster for longer The sky is blue  | ||
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Gjhc
Portugal161 Posts
So to summarize my thoughts, base and strength are key and they both take time. And roses are red. I believe my point was very clear, you can run faster with only endurance training but thats very inefficient, and since Don_Julio stated that he hasn't done speed training I was simply empathising the importance of it. Apart from that I like the advice you gave. | ||
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ms2300
11 Posts
I guess I just don't really like the term "speed work", it's too broad. I've had 3 different coaches who all have meant different things in reference to speed work and because of this has always meant there needs to be further clarification. Me, I've always taken it to mean intervals under 800m, which would be too short for 10k training (unless it's a hill repeat). Sorry for the snarky comment Gjhc | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
How should I proceed? 1. Reduce mileage a little (to 50k(?), maybe cutting a day) and start speedwork immediately or 2. Keep up the 60k and slowly implement speed work. More or less in line with what ms2300 stated. 9 weeks is enough time to get in some decent work, however if you have a serious goal race you probably wouldn't want to build specifically toward this race coming up in 9 weeks. The most typical transition would be, as ms2300 suggested, beginning to introduce some fartlek work (which can be done a myriad of ways), as well as some tempo runs and shorter repeats, somewhere in the 300-400m range tends to be good around 4-7%. A month into that is typically a good time to transition to the track, of which there are several approaches. Some people like to work primarily over and under race pace, increasing the speed of the under pace and decreasing the rest of the over pace work acting as a "funnel" that converges on the goal race, whereas others like to work at race pace either lengthening repeats or decreases interval recovery time while throwing in the occasional session of faster work at 200m/400m. You just have to play around and find out what suits you best. Tempo runs are great for 2 mile-5k but fall kinda short the longer the distances get This is I really disagree with. Absolutely it's the opposite. You can run really solid 10ks, half marathons, and marathons of off mileage and tempo work. 5k is a stretch, and no way will mileage and tempos get you ready for a good 800/1500. The speed and buffering abilities just won't be there. Half marathons more than any race because they are a tempo run taken out to completion. Many of the classic half marathon workouts such as over/under, 3x3Mile, etc. are done right at half marathon pace. With my little knowledge in running training I'd say that you definitely should start speedwork asap, and I'd even argue that speed training is more important to a 10k race than endurance training. 10k is approaching the break even point. Absolutely you need speedwork to run a 10,000 to your potential, but you can run a damn good 10k off of mileage and tempo work alone. This becomes increasingly true for slower athletes were 10k times start to exceed 50 or even 60 minutes. You need endurance to have a solid base but then you need to train speed so you can run faster and then train endurance at your new improved speed so that then you can keep your improved pace during the whole race. That's not really how it works. When you are training for a specific race you're working to improve your ability to run at that pace efficiently and handle the specific demands of that race. Which is why you see such a huge variety in how athletes approach running their easy/mileage days. Some guys run solid easy runs all the time (5k pace + 75-90s/mile), others run totally based on how they feel on a given day, and then there are also plenty of elite mile/5k/10k guys that run easy runs as slow as 7 or even 8 minute pace. In a way you aren't saying anything different than I, but a better way of thinking about it is that you train to run faster at a specific distance and that process makes you fitter, which generally leads to doing all training a little faster including easy mileage runs. Some solid higher intensity work will unquestionably be beneficial though, that much is clear, especially given that DonJulio now has a solid mileage base to work with and a body reasonably prepared to handle the demands of speedwork. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
So I'm going to break from my tradition of being a forum lurker because I may actually be some help on the topic of running. I'm a senior in high school with a 5k track pr of 15:10 and am currently working towards a sub 4:08 mile time this spring. My training right now is consisted of 7 days a week (no two-a-days thank god) with 2 speed workouts, 1 tempo run, and 2 long threshold runs; on average I get about 55-70 miles or 80-110 kilometers a week in depending on the weather and the intensity of the workouts. You've got some nice ability there! Any 800 times or open 400 times on record for you? Curious about what you have for wheels. A question about your nomenclature, you mention doing 1 tempo run and 2 threshold runs per week. What do you see as the difference between a "tempo" and a "threshold" run? Other than that, especially taken in conjunction with the times, it looks like you have a pretty solid approach to your training. It's definitely on the intense side, with more or less 5 solid efforts a week, or even 6 depending on how you run your long run, but if you're body can handle it then nothing wrong with such an approach. Definitely like the fact you haven't gone crazy with the mileage as it gives you plenty of room to continue to increase the training stimulus and build an even bigger aerobic house provided you elect to continue running in college. | ||
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ms2300
11 Posts
This is I really disagree with. Absolutely it's the opposite. You can run really solid 10ks, half marathons, and marathons of off mileage and tempo work So what are some good 10k tempo workout/runs? You've got some nice ability there! Any 800 times or open 400 times on record for you? My coaches threw me in the 4x400 and I was hand-timed at 50.9 last year, with weights and another year of strength under my belt I'd be surprised if I don't break 50 secs this season, but I'd probably want to do it in an open 400 because it feels wrong getting a running start in the relay. As for the 800, that race and I don't really get along...Maybe I'll run it in an indoor meet to see where I'm at or something. It's hard to talk about the times I want to run because it feels like such a stretch and there aren't many "checkpoints" during the winter to see if I'm on schedule. I mean, indoor track is something but it's no fun and gets me hurt pretty quickly. What do you see as the difference between a "tempo" and a "threshold" run? I don't mean lactate threshold and I'm probably using the wrong term entirely, but when I refer to "threshold' I'm talking about the max sustainable pace over a fairly long distance (~12 miles). Some kid on my team started using the term and I kinda followed suit, even if it's wrong. So like a tempo would be (depending on the distance of course) 5:10-5:25 whereas a "threshold" is like 5:45-5:55 and I sustain it for a fairly long ways. . Definitely like the fact you haven't gone crazy with the mileage Ohh I definitely did over the summer and there is a reason I backed off for winter training. I think I peaked at like 92 miles/week, but it was at the point where I was running to slow and not getting enough out of each run for it to be efficient. I used to think mileage was the most important factor in 5k-10k training, but I think it's different for everybody and the important thing is to find the sweet spot (which I haven't found yet). | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
 Crazy is like 120+ summer months and sustained 100mpw average year round. It can make you a monster in HS, but in many cases doesn't seem to result in as good of a development in college. I don't mean lactate threshold and I'm probably using the wrong term entirely, but when I refer to "threshold' I'm talking about the max sustainable pace over a fairly long distance (~12 miles). Some kid on my team started using the term and I kinda followed suit, even if it's wrong. So like a tempo would be (depending on the distance of course) 5:10-5:25 whereas a "threshold" is like 5:45-5:55 and I sustain it for a fairly long ways. Aww shit...this is gonna get confusing! Cycling, which I do a good bit of, uses the exact opposite terms. Tempo is like a strong aerobic cruise pace (MP pace effort give or take), and threshold refers to classic hour max effort pace. My coaches threw me in the 4x400 and I was hand-timed at 50.9 last year, with weights and another year of strength under my belt I'd be surprised if I don't break 50 secs this season, but I'd probably want to do it in an open 400 because it feels wrong getting a running start in the relay. As for the 800, that race and I don't really get along...Maybe I'll run it in an indoor meet to see where I'm at or something. It's hard to talk about the times I want to run because it feels like such a stretch and there aren't many "checkpoints" during the winter to see if I'm on schedule. I mean, indoor track is something but it's no fun and gets me hurt pretty quickly. .Good stuff. I figured the wheels would need to be pretty good if you're looking to go sub 4:10 and that confirms it. Hope you keep posting here, because with those wheels if you can continue to develop aerobically you'll be very, very good in the future. So what are some good 10k tempo workout/runs? If I'm understanding the question correctly, it's pretty much any strength bases stuff. Think 4-5 miles at the standard 5k pace + 25-30sec, 6xMile at the same pace w/1min recovery, 3x2mile at same pace w/2min recovery, etc. That kind of running doesn't end up being terribly far off 10k pace, and if you get in a bunch of that over a season, especially combined with some good, strong, longer runs tha gets guys into seriously good aerobic shape...which is probably 95% of the battle of running a great 10k. Honestly a pretty good example of that is the good marathon guys. Most of those guys are doing general high mileage, lots of work at you're idea of threshold, and the occassional bit of work at HM pace. When the good guys come to run the occasional 10k they usually run low/mid 27s on the road, so you're talking high 26/low27 on the track. Pretty dang strong. If you had them throw in some speedwork and pacework for a couple months I'm sure they would knock another 10-30 seconds off that, but marathon training alone has them within 5-10 sec/mile of what they are capable with...and that is even slower in general than what a typical summer or base plan would look like for a HS/college 5k/10k guy. | ||
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ms2300
11 Posts
Crazy is like 120+ summer months and sustained 100mpw average year round. It can make you a monster in HS I don't know of any really fast HS runner who does this. I know college runners who do that, but it's probably because their race is twice is long as the HS 5k and they are completely crazy. Think 4-5 miles at the standard 5k pace + 25-30sec, 6xMile at the same pace w/1min recovery, 3x2mile at same pace w/2min recovery, etc Ok yeah, I just have never felt the 4-5 mile tempo's have been worth it; I am a big fan of 2 mile repeats though. | ||
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Don_Julio
2220 Posts
So I guess what I'm gonna do is to introduce one temporun and one fartlek workout asap and maybe transition to track intervalls in about four weeks. Sounds good and about what I expected. I will definitely do tempos because they really helped me in the past. It's not that I have never worked on speed by the way. I did a lot of temporuns for my half in the fall and track workouts in the last spring. The last weeks were solely to build up base mileage. Damn ms2300 you're fast. I have no clue but is that good enough to get a college scholarship? | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On January 19 2015 22:03 Don_Julio wrote: Wow, I stirred up quite the discussion here. Thanks for the feedback guys. So I guess what I'm gonna do is to introduce one temporun and one fartlek workout asap and maybe transition to track intervalls in about four weeks. Sounds good and about what I expected. I will definitely do tempos because they really helped me in the past. It's not that I have never worked on speed by the way. I did a lot of temporuns for my half in the fall and track workouts in the last spring. The last weeks were solely to build up base mileage. Damn ms2300 you're fast. I have no clue but is that good enough to get a college scholarship? More than good enough to run D1, and should be able to get some money depending on the school. | ||
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ms2300
11 Posts
More than good enough to run D1, and should be able to get some money depending on the school. It's good enough to get large/full scholarships to D2 schools, and get good enough to get a little help from D1 schools. Of course this is all assuming I can put out the times I am on pace for... However, there is always a tradeoff to running D1. I have yet to meet a college athlete who can do their best academic work and still keep it together on the field (and vice versa). I would much rather become the best engineer I can than run competitively for 4 years ultimately leading to very little (yay for team camaraderie). I just don't think it's worth it in college to run competitively, HS is different because academically I am kinda just waiting for the year to end. Edit: Ohh, and I forgot to ask about cycling training, and the differences between it and training for running (besides the fact one is on a bike). | ||
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