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Netherlands13554 Posts
I think the point people are making is that Lukaku for example can play against all your competitors.. Liverpool, Arsenal, Manchester City and maybe make a big impact by winning a few matches against them. Then he can't play against Chelsea and maybe his presence would've made a difference. That's corrupting the competition and the English FA should abolish a rule like that/make it illegal. I think only the FA allows it. In the Netherlands the top teams regularly loan out players against middle tier teams, and the players are always in it. People actually like that here because then they can prove themselves against their 'own' club.
Barcelona would gladly let Deulofeu play against them imo.
Vitesse is in the news daily with new shady stories. It's all about Russian mob this Russian mob that in that club. I'd love for a true Vitesse fan to be posting in this topic to tell the whole story but what Chelsea is doing in Arnhem is absolutely gross. People that are loved at the club and have worked at the club for 15-20 years are getting sacked for no apparent reason for example. Fans are rioting with big banners saying that they want 'their' club back. Soon that club won't have any fans left. Doubt it'll come to that though. Merab Jordania (the one put in charge by the Russians at first, but pushed out because he wasn't doing everything the Russians said) is gathering financial support to buy the club back to people that love it, not keep it in the hands of people who use it as a tradehouse. The club has lost all its identity except for the few fans it has left. Hope Jordania succeeds as he's come to love the club. Oh and by the way, you know how the people in charge right now treat Jordania? Give him a 3 year stadium ban because he 'threatened' Joost de Wit (new director or whatever, just a strawman for the Russians, doesn't have a clue about football). He basically jested that he would cut his fingers off and that whiny douche took that serious and called the police.
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On April 10 2014 19:21 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2014 11:52 MaZza[KIS] wrote:On April 10 2014 08:30 Pantagruel wrote:
It's really irrelevant how many goals you score when looking at the intent of a team. The first priority of a Jose Mourinho team is to not concede, and that's how they set up to play. Jose now, and always, has played not to concede first. I don't like that attitude towards football. I prefer a team that looks to dominate the game and score goals first and foremost. Though Jose's teams can score a lot of goals on the counter, in the end he is only interested in winning games, not in playing football. Without a doubt he is damn efficient in this, but I can't respect this attitude.
When I think back on teams of the past I'll never remember much about a Mourinho team (though I'll remember Mourinho himself) while a team like Guardiola's Barcelona will be remembered by everyone. Mourinho will be seen as a fantastic winner, but ultimately will have contributed nothing to the game of football. Remove Messi from Barcelona and it's just one big giant boring pass-fest. (while Messi was out lots of ppl were saying how barca had lost it's impetus and slowed down their game... I'm not alone in thinking this) If the intent of Murinho is not to concede then the intent of Pep is to retain possesion. BOTH CAN BE EXTREMELY BORING!!! Lets face it, what matters at the end of the day is RESULT. If you're focused on anything else it's because you didn't win and you're trying to justify why you lost. No.1 Jose fan! (esp. for that eye poke) So Cruijff is a loser together with like every Dutch coach?
going 0:3 with the dutch squad in the euro 2012 for example is sort of bad yea
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On April 10 2014 19:01 warding wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2014 18:33 Pandemona wrote:
Well, we pay his wages? Why shouldn't we have the final say on whether he is allowed to play against his parent club who would lose money significally if he were to play amazingly and win them the tie etc.
I don't see anything wrong with not allowing your player to play against you? He is at Atletico Madrid to gain experience to be able to walk into the first team at Chelsea we tell Cech he is number 2. There would be no difference if we played Atletico or if we played Vitesse.
Same when we played Everton and they couldn't use Lukaku It can be unfair in the scenario where Chelsea plays Vitesse in next years' CL group stage and Vitesse is not allowed to field 4-5 of their top players. If current trends hold up and top PL and La Liga teams have revenues that are 10-20 times higher than 2nd tier clubs, then they can start holding like 500 players in their pay rolls. Most competitive matches then become something of a farce.
Atletico can play him against Chelsea, they just have to pay 3 million. They knew all this when they received him on loan, they signed that contract. Its not like its a magical clause Chelsea are pulling out of their butts.
edit: Messi blamed for Barcelona's defeat after running just a mile more than the KEEPER
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2601305/Messi-blamed-Barcelonas-defeat-running-just-1km-KEEPER.html
Goalkeepeers run 3 miles a match? I'll never be a professional footballer 
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On April 10 2014 19:29 Kleinmuuhg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2014 19:21 RvB wrote:On April 10 2014 11:52 MaZza[KIS] wrote:On April 10 2014 08:30 Pantagruel wrote:
It's really irrelevant how many goals you score when looking at the intent of a team. The first priority of a Jose Mourinho team is to not concede, and that's how they set up to play. Jose now, and always, has played not to concede first. I don't like that attitude towards football. I prefer a team that looks to dominate the game and score goals first and foremost. Though Jose's teams can score a lot of goals on the counter, in the end he is only interested in winning games, not in playing football. Without a doubt he is damn efficient in this, but I can't respect this attitude.
When I think back on teams of the past I'll never remember much about a Mourinho team (though I'll remember Mourinho himself) while a team like Guardiola's Barcelona will be remembered by everyone. Mourinho will be seen as a fantastic winner, but ultimately will have contributed nothing to the game of football. Remove Messi from Barcelona and it's just one big giant boring pass-fest. (while Messi was out lots of ppl were saying how barca had lost it's impetus and slowed down their game... I'm not alone in thinking this) If the intent of Murinho is not to concede then the intent of Pep is to retain possesion. BOTH CAN BE EXTREMELY BORING!!! Lets face it, what matters at the end of the day is RESULT. If you're focused on anything else it's because you didn't win and you're trying to justify why you lost. No.1 Jose fan! (esp. for that eye poke) So Cruijff is a loser together with like every Dutch coach? going 0:3 with the dutch squad in the euro 2012 for example is sort of bad yea
Our squad was never really that good though we overperformed in 2010. But yeh we were fucking terrible lol.
edit: But then again that was when we were playing football for mainly the results with Van Marwijk so it's not really a good example.
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On April 10 2014 19:48 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2014 19:01 warding wrote:On April 10 2014 18:33 Pandemona wrote:
Well, we pay his wages? Why shouldn't we have the final say on whether he is allowed to play against his parent club who would lose money significally if he were to play amazingly and win them the tie etc.
I don't see anything wrong with not allowing your player to play against you? He is at Atletico Madrid to gain experience to be able to walk into the first team at Chelsea we tell Cech he is number 2. There would be no difference if we played Atletico or if we played Vitesse.
Same when we played Everton and they couldn't use Lukaku It can be unfair in the scenario where Chelsea plays Vitesse in next years' CL group stage and Vitesse is not allowed to field 4-5 of their top players. If current trends hold up and top PL and La Liga teams have revenues that are 10-20 times higher than 2nd tier clubs, then they can start holding like 500 players in their pay rolls. Most competitive matches then become something of a farce. Atletico can play him against Chelsea, they just have to pay 3 million. They knew all this when they received him on loan, they signed that contract. Its not like its a magical clause Chelsea are pulling out of their butts.
It's not unfair towards Atletico, it's unfair towards all the other clubs that have to play Atletico at full strength unlike Chelsea.
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Yeah frustrating situation at Vitesse, Chelsea pretty much control every aspect of the club. That said where would they be without Chelsea? I like Jordania as he wants to make Vitesse a real team instead of just a playground for Chelsea youth, but I just don't see how he can accomplish that without spending a big part of his own fortune. The club has just too little foundation to build upon, it is quite telling that the only match that sold out was last weekend when the stands were filled with ajax supporters. Psv, Feyenoord and Twente were all half full.
On April 10 2014 20:59 Otolia wrote:
What's fundamentally the problem with Chelsea loaning tons of players to a second rate league to have them play and gain experience ?!
How is that a conflict of interest ?
The loaning tons of players isn't the problem. The problem is that allegedly Chelsea don't want Vitesse to win the league as this could cause conflict in the champions league, so key weaknesses within the squad are deliberately not tackled and when Vitesse wanted to reinvest the money earned from the Bony transfer Chelsea put a stop to it.
Also normally Vitesse aren't that close to winning the league, but this year the top clubs all underperformed considerably.
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What's fundamentally the problem with Chelsea loaning tons of players to a second rate league to have them play and gain experience ?!
How is that a conflict of interest ?
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
To be honest, why the hell didn't Chelsea get Bony in the first place xD
We got Van Ginkel instead who imo could be fantastic, but he lost a full season with a horrible injury which is such a shame as he might of been able to make the Dutch world cup squad. He might be able to play once or twice between now and the end of the season in the league which i hope is right.
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Norway28699 Posts
On April 10 2014 20:59 Otolia wrote:
What's fundamentally the problem with Chelsea loaning tons of players to a second rate league to have them play and gain experience ?!
How is that a conflict of interest ?
Several problems.
The Vitesse experience has shown us that agreeing to be a farmer club for a top team like Chelsea is the best way for a small club with low supporter base and bad economy to quickly rise towards the top. (between 2002 and 2010 they placed 10th or lower 8 out of 9 years, one year they got 7th, whereas the last three seasons after initiating the Chelsea partnership has yielded them 7th, 4th and currently 4th now.) The lesser domestic leagues of Europe are dominated by just this type of team.
For individual clubs this results in the creation of a dependency bond - the local club no longer becomes self-suffiicent. It additionally creates a huge barrier for upcoming local talent, which in return creates less local support for the team (supporters always favor the hometown boy) and even less self-sufficiency. It also makes it impossible to compete without adopting a similar strategy - this is kind of like, "player-injection" rather than doping, but it skewers the competition just the same. We've seen the same with billionaires taking over clubs - then the money-injection also ends up making it impossible to compete without it. (Unless you happen to be one of a small handful of clubs so big that they're super rich anyway.)
It's not a big problem that one club in one league has some players from some other big club, but it's a problem when this kind of inevitably leads to more clubs adopting the same strategy. In addition, I feel a big aversion to this kind of, talent-hoarding many of the bigger clubs seem to part-take in, where you have teams with 70+ players in the squad. Granted many of them are loaned out, but I think it'd be more economically viable for the league if lower level teams had ownership of their star players rather than them just borrowing them.
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On April 10 2014 21:21 Pandemona wrote:
To be honest, why the hell didn't Chelsea get Bony in the first place xD
We got Van Ginkel instead who imo could be fantastic, but he lost a full season with a horrible injury which is such a shame as he might of been able to make the Dutch world cup squad. He might be able to play once or twice between now and the end of the season in the league which i hope is right.
As does most of the Netherlands haha. Still it is quite telling of the current situation in the Netherlands that Van Ginkel actually has a realistic chance of making the squad after being out for an entire season. Cannot wait for when in 4 years the current ajax, psv and feyenoord crop have matured because they are so much better than what we have now.
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On April 10 2014 21:51 Ysellian wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2014 21:21 Pandemona wrote:
To be honest, why the hell didn't Chelsea get Bony in the first place xD
We got Van Ginkel instead who imo could be fantastic, but he lost a full season with a horrible injury which is such a shame as he might of been able to make the Dutch world cup squad. He might be able to play once or twice between now and the end of the season in the league which i hope is right. As does most of the Netherlands haha. Still it is quite telling of the current situation in the Netherlands that Van Ginkel actually has a realistic chance of making the squad after being out for an entire season. Cannot wait for when in 4 years the current ajax, psv and feyenoord crop have matured because they are so much better than what we have now.
You have someone better than Robben?
Want to see that dude :p
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Robben and Van Persie are the exception but he's right forthe rest of the team.
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On April 11 2014 01:15 clusen wrote:
You have someone better than Robben?
Want to see that dude :p
I wasn't really thinking of Robben and van Persie to be honest, because my criticism is mainly direct at the current generation. There is a strong possibility that the Netherlands will go 0 - 3 (we actually have a losing record against Australia) for the second consecutive tournament.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Van Ginkel and Van Aanholt will carry no problem :3
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On April 10 2014 19:00 Otolia wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2014 17:02 Pantagruel wrote:On April 10 2014 16:41 Otolia wrote:On April 10 2014 08:30 Pantagruel wrote:
It's really irrelevant how many goals you score when looking at the intent of a team. The first priority of a Jose Mourinho team is to not concede, and that's how they set up to play. Jose now, and always, has played not to concede first. I don't like that attitude towards football. I prefer a team that looks to dominate the game and score goals first and foremost. Though Jose's teams can score a lot of goals on the counter, in the end he is only interested in winning games, not in playing football. Without a doubt he is damn efficient in this, but I can't respect this attitude.
When I think back on teams of the past I'll never remember much about a Mourinho team (though I'll remember Mourinho himself) while a team like Guardiola's Barcelona will be remembered by everyone. Mourinho will be seen as a fantastic winner, but ultimately will have contributed nothing to the game of football. BULL- FUCKING - SHIT !!!!!One of the most visually pleasant team in Europa is Fiorentina. Vicenzo Montella has built a 3-5-2 with a lot of depth and the sole reason they won't be qualified for CL this year and the injuries to Mario Gomez et Guiseppe Rossi. And yet, I seldom see anyone praising them. Your rhetoric about "pleasant" football is nothing but posturing. Not sure what you are trying to say here. A 3-5-2 formation is a very attacking style. It's great to watch with a clear attitude to score. I approve of this, it's pleasant football as you say. What I'm saying is that people preferring "pleasant" football over "winning" football are often oblivious to smaller teams and keep masturbating over Barcelona, Real Madrid or Bayern.
Because your logic is half complete. Even Swansea City plays pleasant football.
Great teams entertain and win. Then there are some teams that entertain and some that play big sam football, I would rather fap to teams that do both.
Just saying..
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goodluck to the portuguese teams today im not a supporter of any but hope they do well
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Madrid also has that BS clause in most of the players they sell. And I mean sell, not only loan.
It's totally nonsense because in theory (infinite money) they could sign all the good keepers in La Liga and then resell them to their clubs, so they would be able to play vs all other teams but them xD
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On April 10 2014 19:00 Otolia wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2014 17:02 Pantagruel wrote:On April 10 2014 16:41 Otolia wrote:On April 10 2014 08:30 Pantagruel wrote:
It's really irrelevant how many goals you score when looking at the intent of a team. The first priority of a Jose Mourinho team is to not concede, and that's how they set up to play. Jose now, and always, has played not to concede first. I don't like that attitude towards football. I prefer a team that looks to dominate the game and score goals first and foremost. Though Jose's teams can score a lot of goals on the counter, in the end he is only interested in winning games, not in playing football. Without a doubt he is damn efficient in this, but I can't respect this attitude.
When I think back on teams of the past I'll never remember much about a Mourinho team (though I'll remember Mourinho himself) while a team like Guardiola's Barcelona will be remembered by everyone. Mourinho will be seen as a fantastic winner, but ultimately will have contributed nothing to the game of football. BULL- FUCKING - SHIT !!!!!One of the most visually pleasant team in Europa is Fiorentina. Vicenzo Montella has built a 3-5-2 with a lot of depth and the sole reason they won't be qualified for CL this year and the injuries to Mario Gomez et Guiseppe Rossi. And yet, I seldom see anyone praising them. Your rhetoric about "pleasant" football is nothing but posturing. Not sure what you are trying to say here. A 3-5-2 formation is a very attacking style. It's great to watch with a clear attitude to score. I approve of this, it's pleasant football as you say. What I'm saying is that people preferring "pleasant" football over "winning" football are often oblivious to smaller teams and keep masturbating over Barcelona, Real Madrid or Bayern.
I don't think that's true. Southampton for example is praised all over the premier league for playing pleasant football. People are not oblivious. Obviously being a consistent performer in champions league will bring more viewers and hence more praise from more people. So yes, winning is important, I'm not disputing, but so is playing beautiful football. They are not mutually exclusive. I will remember a team that won while playing pleasant football over a team that was only focused on results.
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lol sevilla guy was offside and then fake penalty
edit: porto playing like shit, but sevilla players keep diving.. its a joke
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Silvio broke his leg. Damn it. He was starter material for Portugal in the WC.
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EPT
