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On April 10 2014 16:47 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2014 16:45 Ysellian wrote:On April 10 2014 16:4 sharkie wrote:On April 10 2014 16:34 Ysellian wrote:Tiki-taka is playing with the intention of not conceding the ball and is very result focused. It's a tactic developed out of weakness in one area and strength in another. Pep's version is a lot more direct than Spain's, which IMO is a bigger bore fest than Mou's Inter, but he does fall victim to being too focused on possession at times. Parking the bus is a common criticism towards teams playing against it, but it really shouldn't be an issue with the physical presence Bayern has. Though I think the reason Bayern struggled so much was because Pep was being a bit too cute tactically. That said, I personally believe Wenger understands true creativity. To me true creativity is without any hand breaks that both Mourinho and Guardiola put on their teams, to me amazing creative teams lose against brutally efficient teams like it's supposed to.  (Netherlands 70's and 90's, Brazil in the 80's.) When the crowd shouts "aanvalluuuh" we want all 10 players moving forward without thinking of keeping the ball or defending. Shoot the ball on target when you get the opportunity, attack from the right or left, if someone is man-marking anyone that means he's not open for a pass. The true Rinus Michels way! Spains tiki taka is more efficient and dangerous than the barca style I've never seen Pep's Barca just stop any attacking effort after scoring a goal the way Spain did multiple times in the Euro and World cup. . As much as I dislike Spain I cant fault them for that world cup and euro is about preserving strength, you cant go all out in every game. Germany has learnt that the hard way
Not faulting them for it, I just don't like watching it haha but you are right it is probably more scary to play against such a team than Barca.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
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On April 10 2014 16:41 Otolia wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2014 08:30 Pantagruel wrote:
It's really irrelevant how many goals you score when looking at the intent of a team. The first priority of a Jose Mourinho team is to not concede, and that's how they set up to play. Jose now, and always, has played not to concede first. I don't like that attitude towards football. I prefer a team that looks to dominate the game and score goals first and foremost. Though Jose's teams can score a lot of goals on the counter, in the end he is only interested in winning games, not in playing football. Without a doubt he is damn efficient in this, but I can't respect this attitude.
When I think back on teams of the past I'll never remember much about a Mourinho team (though I'll remember Mourinho himself) while a team like Guardiola's Barcelona will be remembered by everyone. Mourinho will be seen as a fantastic winner, but ultimately will have contributed nothing to the game of football. BULL- FUCKING - SHIT !!!!!One of the most visually pleasant team in Europa is Fiorentina. Vicenzo Montella has built a 3-5-2 with a lot of depth and the sole reason they won't be qualified for CL this year and the injuries to Mario Gomez et Guiseppe Rossi. And yet, I seldom see anyone praising them. Your rhetoric about "pleasant" football is nothing but posturing.
Not sure what you are trying to say here. A 3-5-2 formation is a very attacking style. It's great to watch with a clear attitude to score. I approve of this, it's pleasant football as you say.
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Something new from the category of "WTF this is legal?"
Courtois has a "Chelsea" clause in his loan contract. He cannot play against them, if he does athletico has to pay a penalty payment to Chelsea which they cant afford according to the Athletico president.
This would suck a lot if it is really true.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Well in England, a loan player cannot play against his parent club. Im guessing after we lost 4-0 in Super cup vs them Mourinho decided to put the same rule in for Atletico not to be able to use him against us.
Ahaha :3
I hope we avoid Atletico anyway, Atletico play like Chelsea but have these things called Strikers who put the ball in the net better, so i wouldn't see us doing so well over 2 legs. I'll much rather 2 legs vs Bayern/Real.
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Never heard of that tbh. Its not common (i think even illegal) in germany to put something like that in a contract.
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On April 10 2014 17:57 Pandemona wrote:It's premier league rules in England and i think the FA use it too. He is our player don't forget though
Yea but international contracts like this have to be permitted by the UEFA right? I am surprised that there isn't a rule against that because it is a pretty big intervention into the clubs independence to play whoever they want.
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Contract clauses like that distort the competition. Imagine a team that has key players in several league teams on their loan list, they would have a much easier time than their direct competitors against those teams. Now I just hope Atletico don't have to play Chelsea.
UEFA needs to get a tighter grip on all the shady loan business. I mean it's necessary to be able to loan young players out, but there must be restrictions on how many players can be loaned out and on the allowed contract clauses.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Well, we pay his wages? Why shouldn't we have the final say on whether he is allowed to play against his parent club who would lose money significally if he were to play amazingly and win them the tie etc.
I don't see anything wrong with not allowing your player to play against you? He is at Atletico Madrid to gain experience to be able to walk into the first team at Chelsea we tell Cech he is number 2. There would be no difference if we played Atletico or if we played Vitesse.
Same when we played Everton and they couldn't use Lukaku
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On April 10 2014 18:33 Pandemona wrote:
Well, we pay his wages? Why shouldn't we have the final say on whether he is allowed to play against his parent club who would lose money significally if he were to play amazingly and win them the tie etc.
I don't see anything wrong with not allowing your player to play against you? He is at Atletico Madrid to gain experience to be able to walk into the first team at Chelsea we tell Cech he is number 2. There would be no difference if we played Atletico or if we played Vitesse.
Same when we played Everton and they couldn't use Lukaku
If the player is better than the ones you're got in the team, take the player back. If he's worse, shouldn't be a problem to let him play .
But seriously, clubs deciding what other clubs cannot do with their players seems wrong to me. Would it be ok too if Chelsea negotiated Courtois can't play against Barcelona either? By making up some bs reason, like conceding would be bad for his morale? There is still an investigation going on whether Chelsea is actively trying to make Vitesse not win the Eredivisie (although I still don't see why that's in their favor), since they're doing susceptibly bad after each winter break. One big club getting too much influence anywhere is a very valid reason to break all this stuff off.
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I find a lot of things shady but this is surely not. Its smart play by PL teams to enforce that.
Its the risk of the other club if they decide to loan from their rivals
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On April 10 2014 17:02 Pantagruel wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2014 16:41 Otolia wrote:On April 10 2014 08:30 Pantagruel wrote:
It's really irrelevant how many goals you score when looking at the intent of a team. The first priority of a Jose Mourinho team is to not concede, and that's how they set up to play. Jose now, and always, has played not to concede first. I don't like that attitude towards football. I prefer a team that looks to dominate the game and score goals first and foremost. Though Jose's teams can score a lot of goals on the counter, in the end he is only interested in winning games, not in playing football. Without a doubt he is damn efficient in this, but I can't respect this attitude.
When I think back on teams of the past I'll never remember much about a Mourinho team (though I'll remember Mourinho himself) while a team like Guardiola's Barcelona will be remembered by everyone. Mourinho will be seen as a fantastic winner, but ultimately will have contributed nothing to the game of football. BULL- FUCKING - SHIT !!!!!One of the most visually pleasant team in Europa is Fiorentina. Vicenzo Montella has built a 3-5-2 with a lot of depth and the sole reason they won't be qualified for CL this year and the injuries to Mario Gomez et Guiseppe Rossi. And yet, I seldom see anyone praising them. Your rhetoric about "pleasant" football is nothing but posturing. Not sure what you are trying to say here. A 3-5-2 formation is a very attacking style. It's great to watch with a clear attitude to score. I approve of this, it's pleasant football as you say.
What I'm saying is that people preferring "pleasant" football over "winning" football are often oblivious to smaller teams and keep masturbating over Barcelona, Real Madrid or Bayern.
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On April 10 2014 18:33 Pandemona wrote:
Well, we pay his wages? Why shouldn't we have the final say on whether he is allowed to play against his parent club who would lose money significally if he were to play amazingly and win them the tie etc.
I don't see anything wrong with not allowing your player to play against you? He is at Atletico Madrid to gain experience to be able to walk into the first team at Chelsea we tell Cech he is number 2. There would be no difference if we played Atletico or if we played Vitesse.
Same when we played Everton and they couldn't use Lukaku
It can be unfair in the scenario where Chelsea plays Vitesse in next years' CL group stage and Vitesse is not allowed to field 4-5 of their top players.
If current trends hold up and top PL and La Liga teams have revenues that are 10-20 times higher than 2nd tier clubs, then they can start holding like 500 players in their pay rolls. Most competitive matches then become something of a farce.
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On April 10 2014 18:57 aseq wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2014 18:33 Pandemona wrote:
Well, we pay his wages? Why shouldn't we have the final say on whether he is allowed to play against his parent club who would lose money significally if he were to play amazingly and win them the tie etc.
I don't see anything wrong with not allowing your player to play against you? He is at Atletico Madrid to gain experience to be able to walk into the first team at Chelsea we tell Cech he is number 2. There would be no difference if we played Atletico or if we played Vitesse.
Same when we played Everton and they couldn't use Lukaku If the player is better than the ones you're got in the team, take the player back. If he's worse, shouldn't be a problem to let him play . But seriously, clubs deciding what other clubs cannot do with their players seems wrong to me. Would it be ok too if Chelsea negotiated Courtois can't play against Barcelona either? By making up some bs reason, like conceding would be bad for his morale? There is still an investigation going on whether Chelsea is actively trying to make Vitesse not win the Eredivisie (although I still don't see why that's in their favor), since they're doing susceptibly bad after each winter break. One big club getting too much influence anywhere is a very valid reason to break all this stuff off.
No club is forced to loan out players
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Yeah i think this is catch 22. Of course Chelsea saying Courtois cannot play vs Barcelona is wrong and i dont think they can do that. But like Sharkie said, if you loan of your rivals your going to get the same situation where they say you cannot play vs us.
Like if Everton keep Delefelou for example next season on loan again and are in the champions league and draw Barcelona in the group stage, im pretty sure they wont let him play vs them ^_^
Like i said before, i hope Chelsea don't draw Atletico anyway as i fear them more than Bayern and Real.
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On April 10 2014 19:01 warding wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2014 18:33 Pandemona wrote:
Well, we pay his wages? Why shouldn't we have the final say on whether he is allowed to play against his parent club who would lose money significally if he were to play amazingly and win them the tie etc.
I don't see anything wrong with not allowing your player to play against you? He is at Atletico Madrid to gain experience to be able to walk into the first team at Chelsea we tell Cech he is number 2. There would be no difference if we played Atletico or if we played Vitesse.
Same when we played Everton and they couldn't use Lukaku It can be unfair in the scenario where Chelsea plays Vitesse in next years' CL group stage and Vitesse is not allowed to field 4-5 of their top players. If current trends hold up and top PL and La Liga teams have revenues that are 10-20 times higher than 2nd tier clubs, then they can start holding like 500 players in their pay rolls. Most competitive matches then become something of a farce.
The problem with that is that everyone always thinks talent can only grow in top clubs. For every German götze there are probably dozens of Asian ones who will never be discovered because no one focuses on these markets
There are so many good football players but who never get the chance because clubs have sucky scouting system and sometimes I think some clubs only have information of players through the media -.-
Just look at Dortmund, a lineup full of nobodies and they beat 2-0, a score that flattered Real.
I dislike the loan system because I am of the opinion that every club should always look at the future, not just survive the next season. They need to build a team which has the potential of staying longer together.
Vitesse is a crap team, their core are chelsea C teamers, that club will never have a future. let them have a season of glory, they will be forgotten
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Netherlands6273 Posts
On April 10 2014 11:52 MaZza[KIS] wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2014 08:30 Pantagruel wrote:
It's really irrelevant how many goals you score when looking at the intent of a team. The first priority of a Jose Mourinho team is to not concede, and that's how they set up to play. Jose now, and always, has played not to concede first. I don't like that attitude towards football. I prefer a team that looks to dominate the game and score goals first and foremost. Though Jose's teams can score a lot of goals on the counter, in the end he is only interested in winning games, not in playing football. Without a doubt he is damn efficient in this, but I can't respect this attitude.
When I think back on teams of the past I'll never remember much about a Mourinho team (though I'll remember Mourinho himself) while a team like Guardiola's Barcelona will be remembered by everyone. Mourinho will be seen as a fantastic winner, but ultimately will have contributed nothing to the game of football. Remove Messi from Barcelona and it's just one big giant boring pass-fest. (while Messi was out lots of ppl were saying how barca had lost it's impetus and slowed down their game... I'm not alone in thinking this) If the intent of Murinho is not to concede then the intent of Pep is to retain possesion. BOTH CAN BE EXTREMELY BORING!!! Lets face it, what matters at the end of the day is RESULT. If you're focused on anything else it's because you didn't win and you're trying to justify why you lost. No.1 Jose fan! (esp. for that eye poke)
So Cruijff is a loser together with like every Dutch coach?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/teams/logos/18x18/52914.png)
Chelsea vs ![[image loading]](http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/teams/logos/18x18/52747.png)
Paris Saint-Germain![[image loading]](http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/teams/logos/18x18/52758.png)
Borussia Dortmund vs ![[image loading]](http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/teams/logos/18x18/50051.png)
Real Madrid![[image loading]](http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/teams/logos/18x18/50124.png)
Atletico Madrid vs ![[image loading]](http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/teams/logos/18x18/50080.png)
Barcelona![[image loading]](http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/teams/logos/18x18/50037.png)
Bayern Munchen vs ![[image loading]](http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/teams/logos/18x18/52682.png)
Manchester United![[image loading]](http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/teams/logos/18x18/52327.png)
AZ Alkmar 
vs ![[image loading]](http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/teams/logos/18x18/50147.png)
Benfica 
![[image loading]](http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/teams/logos/18x18/5312.png)
Lyon 
vs ![[image loading]](http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/teams/logos/18x18/50139.png)
Juventus 
![[image loading]](http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/teams/logos/18x18/59856.png)
Basel ![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/e/e5/Ch.png)
vs ![[image loading]](http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/teams/logos/18x18/52268.png)
Valencia 
![[image loading]](http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/teams/logos/18x18/50064.png)
Porto ![[image loading]](http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/teams/logos/18x18/52714.png)
Sevilla 
