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On May 22 2013 01:53 -VapidSlug- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2013 04:37 Sqisgar wrote:
Any barefoot runners here? I've been reading a little on it and I've been thinking about giving it a shot. I have actually thought about starting a barefoot running thread but I thought it would just die. I used to be a shod runner that used laser-cut prescription orthotics for plantar faciitis and stress fractures. I switched to barefoot and after a long and painful transition I have run a LOT in minimalist footwear/barefoot and I no longer have these nagging problems. Long story short: Barefoot running is what humans were meant to do. The modern shoe was invented in the 70's when we thought we were smarter than millions of years of evolution. The only reason that we need corrective shoes is because we use them. That does create a HUGE problem, though, as our legs and feet are nurtured the wrong way from childhood. That being said (barefoot/minimal is the way we are meant to run), barefoot running has been highly romanticized and most do not recognize the long and painful transition. I can tell you from experience that it takes over a year to fully transition and you will never transition if you do not make a hard and permanent switch. You can gain the muscular strength and coordination to complete it in a couple months, but your bone structures, ligaments, and tendons will take much longer to adjust to the change. It takes a lot of patience. I made the mistake of thinking when I was strong enough (muscularly) I could just run as much as I wanted. Within 3 months I went from less than a mile per day to 10-18 per day because barefoot was so much more fun and I could run so much faster. Bam. 3 stress fractures and achilles tendonitis [Edit: this is where most people say "I tried it, barefoot running is BS" and they quit]. Remember that your muscles progress much faster than bone and tendon/ligament and when you get rid of the modern shoe, you are stretching your achilles/calf an additional 12-16mm at the same time you are changing the contraction/relaxation/stretch dynamics entirely. My advise is: before you even switch, do a hours of research on barefoot running technique, followed by hours of calf and ankle stretch exercises for weeks, followed by restricted practice of techniques. Obviously, studying this would not have been necessary if we were in minimalist footwear since childhood as we would have developed our own techniques and progressed with what works. Even considering this, I promise you, the reward is great and more than worth the cost of the transition--even if you have to get completely out of shape to make said transition. You will be better off later on in life. Since taking months off to heal and months of restricted training, I was successfully able to train for and complete a trail-marathon and countless 5-10k runs with absolutely no problems. I have not had an overuse injury since.
Do you ever run in shoes anymore? Are there any unforeseen problems/issues barefoot running causes even after you are fully accustomed to it?
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On May 22 2013 02:53 AirbladeOrange wrote:
Do you ever run in shoes anymore? Are there any unforeseen problems/issues barefoot running causes even after you are fully accustomed to it?
I generally wear Merrell "zero drop" trail shoes that are not much more than a good flap of rubber under my foot. No padding, no raised heal, no arch support. I agree that your foot should be protected, not corrected. The biggest risk with barefoot is stepping on metals/glass that you cannot see. If you use minimalist shoes your risk drops to the pain of stepping incorrectly on a rock and bruising your foot--a relatively mild risk compared to spraining your ankle on the rock because your heel is raised 16mm off the ground. One thing I left out is that I have historically (when I ran shod) had extreme risk of ankle sprains and I would have a couple every year. With minimal shoes if you sprain your ankle, you must have tried to.
Honestly, if I wear what is considered a normal shoe (asics or whatever), after a few minutes I start getting ankle, knee, and back pain. So I now wear nothing but zero drop soles.
I still think that overtraining rules will apply. Even if you are accustomed to barefoot/minimalist running you shouldn't ever overshoot your abilities. Progression is always a must. This is where barefoot/minimalist running is romanticized as giving you superhuman invulnerability to overuse injury. That is completely false. Only if you stay within your limits and listen to your body you will not get an injury--the same was never true with me and shod running. Injury was not an "if" but a "when."
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On May 22 2013 03:13 -VapidSlug- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2013 02:53 AirbladeOrange wrote:
Do you ever run in shoes anymore? Are there any unforeseen problems/issues barefoot running causes even after you are fully accustomed to it?
I generally wear Merrell "zero drop" trail shoes that are not much more than a good flap of rubber under my foot. No padding, no raised heal, no arch support. I agree that your foot should be protected, not corrected. The biggest risk with barefoot is stepping on metals/glass that you cannot see. If you use minimalist shoes your risk drops to the pain of stepping incorrectly on a rock and bruising your foot--a relatively mild risk compared to spraining your ankle on the rock because your heel is raised 16mm off the ground. One thing I left out is that I have historically (when I ran shod) had extreme risk of ankle sprains and I would have a couple every year. With minimal shoes if you sprain your ankle, you must have tried to. Honestly, if I wear what is considered a normal shoe (asics or whatever), after a few minutes I start getting ankle, knee, and back pain. So I now wear nothing but zero drop soles. I still think that overtraining rules will apply. Even if you are accustomed to barefoot/minimalist running you shouldn't ever overshoot your abilities. Progression is always a must. This is where barefoot/minimalist running is romanticized as giving you superhuman invulnerability to overuse injury. That is completely false. Only if you stay within your limits and listen to your body you will not get an injury--the same was never true with me and shod running. Injury was not an "if" but a "when."
Thanks for the info. I've been checking into purchasing a minimalist shoe that is definitely zero drop and has a big enough toe box. What do you have experience running in? And they all seem to be around $100 which is a big investment but hopefully they last a long time.
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And my mom always yelled at me for running around in my socks as a kid 
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I participated in my first long run ever. It's a half-marathon. I finished it in 2h1m which makes me a happy Panda. More runs to come  .
http://vimeo.com/66027179
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On May 22 2013 07:22 SixSongs wrote:I participated in my first long run ever. It's a half-marathon. I finished it in 2h1m which makes me a happy Panda. More runs to come . http://vimeo.com/66027179
Nice work!
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Im finally running more than walking on my runs using R/W training.One thing I notice as I up my time running is I get side stitches really really badly. However, I notice that usually I feel them after a run segment (on the walk recovery in betwixt runs), not when I'm actually running, but toward the end of my workout time (usually around 30 mins not including the 5 min warmup walk or the 5 min cool down walk) I get them really really badly while I'm running as well. What can I do to decrease these sort of cramps. I've googled a bit but can't find too much and most of it conflicting.
As an aside I feel I might need to see my doctor or something. I have had asthma since birth, and while I haven't had any symptoms of my asthma through my adult life, really (the last 6 or so years), but the main thing that's holding me back from running farther is shortness of breath, so I think while my asthma has mostly subsided, I may still have exercise induced asthma.
cheers, keeping at it, hopefully I will be able to hit my goal of running a 5k without walk breaks by the end of the summer.
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On May 22 2013 07:22 SixSongs wrote:I participated in my first long run ever. It's a half-marathon. I finished it in 2h1m which makes me a happy Panda. More runs to come . http://vimeo.com/66027179
Nice one. You'll be hooked now!
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Good job SixSongs. Are you mad you didn't break the 2h?
@Arisen: My dad(!) told me that stitches are spasms in the diaphragm. If you force yourself to breathe out more than your breathe in helps getting rid of stitches he told me. Seems to relax the muscle. When you're gasping for air right after your run segment you fuck up your rythm and the diaphragm gets a spasm (=stitches). Running too fast, hectic breathing (and maybe your asthma) cause the stitches.
I get stitches (without having asthma) at the regeneration segment of interval work-outs and when I'm running a too fast pace for too long at races. It helps for me to concentrate on rythmic breathing and exhaling enough or too lower my pace.
I'm in no position to give medical advice in this thread but my dad is a doctor and he's my dad so he must be correct, right? That said, read my post with a grain of salt.
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On May 22 2013 05:35 AirbladeOrange wrote:
Thanks for the info. I've been checking into purchasing a minimalist shoe that is definitely zero drop and has a big enough toe box. What do you have experience running in? And they all seem to be around $100 which is a big investment but hopefully they last a long time.
They are a big investment.. I have experience with New Balance MT00 Trail, Vibram 5-Fingers, Teva Zilch Sandal, Merrell Barefoot Run Trail Glove, and Merrell Barefoot Train Flux Glove.
If I were to rate them:
1) Merrell Barefoot Train Flux Glove
This has good flexibility and is built a little heavier than most minimal shoes. The sole is 3mm thicker than the trail glove and it also has a bruise-guard under the arch to protect you from a misplaced step on a rock--this shoe is very good for rocky areas and good for both warm and cold weather. It is also light enough to use on the road. I would say it is the best all-around shoe. The strange thing about it is that you need to tie the very top loops with the laces or the shoe feels floppy on your foot (I have never tied these in any shoe before so it was weird to me).
2) Merrell Barefoot Run Trail Glove
This was my favorite shoe. I loved it. It feels so light, flexible and comfortable. ....until I accidentally step on a rock in the middle of my forefoot or arch and thought I was going to freaking die. They are a little thin. These would be the best shoe by far if you only ran on streets but if you want to go elsewhere I would seriously recommend the #1. You compromise protection for weight and flexibility with this shoe.
3) New Balance MT00 Trail
These are very thin and light. The sole feels a bit strange but it is very flexible and offers a decent amount of protection if a rock happens to be below one of the bubble looking things. The two very unfortunate downfalls of this shoe is the off-chance a rock ends up between the little bubbles (ouch) and that the sole is a little too flexible. Occasionally, if you step on a very uneven surface the shoe can actually rotate a little bit on your foot (the sole hugs the side of your foot), causing you to stumble. Like #2, I would recommend if you primarily run on streets.
4) Vibram 5-Fingers
Meh. Just all-around overhyped "meh." The toes are gimmicky and forbid you to wear socks. If you wear toe-socks, I hope your toes don't actually need blood to live. These shoes wear out the quickest and if your foot doesn't fit the "perfect" way they are designed you will end your 12-mile run with about a gallon of pus soaking your shoes. And since you can't wear socks, they STINK BAD. You need to wash them almost daily or otherwise put them in the freezer overnight to kill as much bacteria as you can after a run. Either option is not for me; I prefer to wear socks and not get blisters.
doesn't deserve a number) Teva Zilch
Not only do they forsake their own name by having (by far) the thickest most padded sole, they decided to use the worst material imaginable for the straps. The straps are thin, hard, and plasticky. If you simply wear them you will sweat beneath the straps and chaff. You chaff without even running in them! I gave these a chance at a 5k and they failed miserably. I finished the race with people staring at me as blood literally flung from my feet with every stride. Hard thin plastic means the straps will cut you, and cut you bad. That was a couple years ago and I still have the scars from a single tiny 5k. Don't get these even as lounge sandals.
Edit: I really should add that minimal shoes should last longer than conventional shoes. You can wear them until your foot is showing through. I replace them less often than my Asics that I used to swear by. I went through the vibrams fast though. But with other minimal shoes, if you are wearing them out quickly then your stride is incorrect. Your feet should be to spring you off the ground not to kick or grip it. Watch the wear of your shoes very carefully to ensure you are not slamming your forefoot into the ground as you go into a step or kicking off of it. I had both these problems for a couple months starting out.
What I am actually recommending is that people start off by actually running barefoot on a smooth, cleaned/swept cement sidewalk. You should be able to run for miles without wearing through the skin on your foot--this is an impossible task for a beginner so it is going to hurt, but it will FORCE you to have a correct stride as any twisting the foot or kicking off the ground will cease quickly when you have no more skin or a bunch of blisters in that area. If you don't do this you are impeding the improvement of your form. I ended up doing this after several months of minimal running and it was the best choice I made
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I started Couch to 5k last week.
http://www.coolrunning.com/engine/2/2_3/181.shtml
On day 2, my shins felt kinda sore, but no big deal. I just completed my third walk/run session and when I got home I couldn't walk normally because my shins were really hurting. Not just tired/fatigued, but pain. A very deep dull sensation as if my shins were hit with a bat. I've never experienced this before doing any cardio activities in the past - played soccer for many years, but stopped due to an injury about 7 years ago. And since then I've played a lot of DDR during the summer every year. Never had this happen before.
Are my muscles really just that sore from no training? Or is something wrong? What can I do to help this from happening on future runs? I'd really rather not stop running, but I could consider alternatives such as cycling.
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On May 22 2013 14:41 Arisen wrote:
Im finally running more than walking on my runs using R/W training.
Awesome work. Reflect on the progress you've made – just a few weeks ago, you could barely run on these. Future gains await! At the risk of sounding like a broken record, my experience with stitches is that they went away once I hit a certain frequency of running (about five or six runs a week, if memory serves). For dealing with them in the middle of a run, I found slowing down or even walking with hands clasped on top of head, so as to really open up the lungs and let the diaphragm do its thing, fairly helpful.
On May 22 2013 23:54 -VapidSlug- wrote:
4) Vibram 5-Fingers
Meh. Just all-around overhyped "meh." The toes are gimmicky and forbid you to wear socks. If you wear toe-socks, I hope your toes don't actually need blood to live. These shoes wear out the quickest and if your foot doesn't fit the "perfect" way they are designed you will end your 12-mile run with about a gallon of pus soaking your shoes. And since you can't wear socks, they STINK BAD. You need to wash them almost daily or otherwise put them in the freezer overnight to kill as much bacteria as you can after a run. Either option is not for me; I prefer to wear socks and not get blisters.
I have less experience with minimalist shoes that you do, and as I mentioned I only do a fraction of my mileage in them, but I haven't had much to complain about with my fivefingers. I've had mine for about a year, and outside of some wear on the treads, they're pretty much as good as new – and, in that same period, I pounded a pair of adidas adizeros to smithereens. I also find I can wear them for some winter running, though anything colder than -10 °C is a bit uncomfortable.
They do smell a bit, though. I find letting them dry out completely between runs helps a lot. They'll still smell a bit, but only if you stick your nose pretty close, which is a bit of a silly thing to do. Maybe if you wear them for every run they have less time to dry out.
On May 23 2013 01:43 Marimokkori wrote:
Are my muscles really just that sore from no training? Or is something wrong? What can I do to help this from happening on future runs? I'd really rather not stop running, but I could consider alternatives such as cycling.
My two cents is that your muscles are really just that sore. Running is much more repetitive even than sports that involve lots of running like soccer, and if you have no experience with it, parts of your body are in for some tough love. Take it easy and let yourself fully recover before your next challenging run. (My favourite recovery step is a hot bath with a beer and a book, or, if I can get near a pool, alternating five-minute stints in a hot tub and cold pool.) If the pain persists, see a doctor or a physiotherapist.
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On May 22 2013 18:04 Don_Julio wrote:
Good job SixSongs. Are you mad you didn't break the 2h?
@Arisen: My dad(!) told me that stitches are spasms in the diaphragm. If you force yourself to breathe out more than your breathe in helps getting rid of stitches he told me. Seems to relax the muscle. When you're gasping for air right after your run segment you fuck up your rythm and the diaphragm gets a spasm (=stitches). Running too fast, hectic breathing (and maybe your asthma) cause the stitches.
I get stitches (without having asthma) at the regeneration segment of interval work-outs and when I'm running a too fast pace for too long at races. It helps for me to concentrate on rythmic breathing and exhaling enough or too lower my pace.
I'm in no position to give medical advice in this thread but my dad is a doctor and he's my dad so he must be correct, right? That said, read my post with a grain of salt.
@ Don_julio, I'm actually really happy as my initial goal was 2h30mins. I'm not a runner type, I'm more of a bodybuilder type. But 2h, made me feel really good. And the next half-marathon im planning to run under 1:45 :D.
PS, Here is a pic of me I just found on the marathon's site :D.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/e3vJ8xX.jpg)
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Nice work. Keep working on those slow twitch muscles and your Vo2 max will continue to improve as your body gets use to the mileage.
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On May 23 2013 02:22 Bonham wrote:
I have less experience with minimalist shoes that you do, and as I mentioned I only do a fraction of my mileage in them, but I haven't had much to complain about with my fivefingers. I've had mine for about a year, and outside of some wear on the treads, they're pretty much as good as new – and, in that same period, I pounded a pair of adidas adizeros to smithereens. I also find I can wear them for some winter running, though anything colder than -10 °C is a bit uncomfortable.
Yeah there are some people that do OK with them, but I really think there are better things out there. Honestly, a large toebox shoe will afford you more flexibility than the individual toes will--so I see them as a gimmick.
I believe most of the problem with the quick wear in my shoes is that my foot is not shaped like the 5-fingers. I did have properly sized shoes but I have a foot width that is not available in these; this caused pinching in certain areas that I wouldn't notice until after about 7 miles. That's a bad time to feel something when you still have to turn and go back. My toes also pushed through the sides of each toe-thing and would set on the street rather than on the sole.
These are kindof personal issues, but at $100+ I wouldn't recommend investing in these when these risks are present and you will not discover them until you run a longer distance (can't return them after that). But I do know a few people that love them. I like them for a trip to a lake because they are awesome water shoes, but that's about it.
On May 23 2013 15:40 MachoMyers wrote:
Nice work. Keep working on those slow twitch muscles and your Vo2 max will continue to improve as your body gets use to the mileage.
Well.. Vo2 max is arguably of lesser importance in the longer races; lactate threshold is the thing to work on and it requires a different type of interval workout. When I train I consistently reach a Vo2max of over 73 and professional marathon runners generally set at an average of 63. I am nowhere NEAR as fast as they are =P but I have a very low lactate threshold whereas a pro marathoner has one that is incredibly high. Vo2 max is of some importance, but you shouldn't be operating at that level of effort for the majority of the race.
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On May 23 2013 06:10 SixSongs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2013 18:04 Don_Julio wrote:
Good job SixSongs. Are you mad you didn't break the 2h?
@Arisen: My dad(!) told me that stitches are spasms in the diaphragm. If you force yourself to breathe out more than your breathe in helps getting rid of stitches he told me. Seems to relax the muscle. When you're gasping for air right after your run segment you fuck up your rythm and the diaphragm gets a spasm (=stitches). Running too fast, hectic breathing (and maybe your asthma) cause the stitches.
I get stitches (without having asthma) at the regeneration segment of interval work-outs and when I'm running a too fast pace for too long at races. It helps for me to concentrate on rythmic breathing and exhaling enough or too lower my pace.
I'm in no position to give medical advice in this thread but my dad is a doctor and he's my dad so he must be correct, right? That said, read my post with a grain of salt. @ Don_julio, I'm actually really happy as my initial goal was 2h30mins. I'm not a runner type, I'm more of a bodybuilder type. But 2h, made me feel really good. And the next half-marathon im planning to run under 1:45 :D. PS, Here is a pic of me I just found on the marathon's site :D.
Nice! Your whole outfit matches, even your shoes.
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Well.. Vo2 max is arguably of lesser importance in the longer races; lactate threshold is the thing to work on and it requires a different type of interval workout. When I train I consistently reach a Vo2max of over 73 and professional marathon runners generally set at an average of 63. I am nowhere NEAR as fast as they are =P but I have a very low lactate threshold whereas a pro marathoner has one that is incredibly high. Vo2 max is of some importance, but you shouldn't be operating at that level of effort for the majority of the race.
The interesting thing here is that just because you are working @ Lactate Threshold, or @ Vo2Max, or whatever does not necessarily mean that improves that quality any more than operating at a different pace. I.E. a tempo run is not necessarily better for improving lactate threshold than an easy run is. Science of Sport as well as Steve Magness's blog have some really interesting articles talking about this.
However, it's clear that all these types of runs are very important to be a complete, race ready runner and to continued improvement. Thus, the takeaway is that you should be training at various paces and intensities as it clearly makes someone a better runner, even if training @VO2 isn't improving VO2 more than some other workout. Different races of course better supported by different aspects of training (800m runner is not going to have a focus on long tempo runs and lots of 10k pace interval work). Personally, I think alot of the improvement in running comes from economy/specificity, and it's one of the reason Canova's system has always resonated well with me. The idea that you work at much faster than race pace and much slower than race pace early in the season, then funnel towards race pace work at the end makes intuitiveness sense. You develop the speed to be comfortable at race pace, as well as the endurance, then gradually shift to working @ race pace for efficiency and comfort.
As another aside it's truly fascinating how many different approaches there are to the specifics of training, and how much one runner can thrive under one system, and perform sub par with another.
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That is all very true. All types of training are important for about any type of competitive running. Even if you are running a 50miler, you had better still have some speed work in your training. The hardest part is figuring out the perfect balance of everything for you without overtraining.
On May 24 2013 02:47 L_Master wrote:
As another aside it's truly fascinating how many different approaches there are to the specifics of training, and how much one runner can thrive under one system, and perform sub par with another.
Definitely. My friend becomes an absolute beast by doing long, moderate intensity runs + tempos. Somehow he can do a bunch of 15-20 mile slow runs with a tempo then just go do a 32:00 10k. I need the complete opposite with short, very intense intervals with a biweekly long run and weekly tempo. Everybody really does need to do years worth of experimenting to determine what they respond to best.
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Does anyone know if most people plan their training in week long segments just because a week is what we base many other things on? For example if a long run every 7 days seems too much for someone maybe they should do one every 10 days.
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EPT
