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On July 23 2025 11:23 tigera6 wrote:
Showtime got the right setup for game 1, he spot the army move out, delay them enough with Stalkers, got Charge done but never got enough Zealot count, wasnt sure if he just missed the warp-in or not having enough Gateway. Game 2 just a matter of failing to scout what Cure was doing.
Gateways were late because he made another round of stalkers. The outcome would have been the same regardless of the decision order. He wasn't going to hold that without going immediately into storm.
Classic is the only one playing the matchup in an advantageous way in the current meta. Practically always putting batteries in each mineral line and a tech committal before 3rd.
On July 23 2025 03:39 Waxangel wrote:
I mean, I suppose it's sports fans' right to flippantly say stuff that amounts to "the loser shoulda played better," but I think people should appreciate how hard it can be to play at the highest level.
(I do think players should be more willing to double-worker or even triple-worker scout when there's confusion around a proxy situation)
Can't really afford to do that until after saturation else you're actually just making yourself further behind, and once you're at that stage it's already past that point you need to commit based on current intel.
There isn't a safe option unfortunately, he pretty much needed to do something like Astrea's game earlier where he marched zealot stalkers across the map right away, which has its own drawbacks.. but trying to play reactively is always behind vs a cheese like that.
But anyway,
The TvP strat merry go around is pretty interesting. Hyper greed is effective for Classic style but can get punished or broken by aggro blink via stim snipe or in rare cases straight up killing.
I really hope we get Classic vs Clem/Maru at some point but needs to make it out of his group first.
Based on Classic's success recently it's hard to argue that delaying your 3rd is not the objective best way to approach the matchup. It minimalizes probe loss from harassment and can def win vs the most polarizing strat of the game (scv pull)
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On July 23 2025 05:24 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2025 04:20 SHODAN wrote:On July 23 2025 02:57 WombaT wrote:On July 23 2025 02:14 SHODAN wrote:On July 23 2025 00:33 WombaT wrote:On July 23 2025 00:24 Gescom wrote:
I _really_ dislike the race switching in TvT. But for 200 grand, I'd bend as well. /sigh I’d disagree there. It’s hype as fuck to see a player with a legitimately monster, tournament level off-race that we’ve never really seen before in 15 years. I totally agree with Clem’s reason for playing PvT, TvT is just incredibly volatile in the early game and a bit too coinflippy. If Clem was dodging it because he was bad in the mid and late game I’d feel a bit differently the reason he plays protoss is because of mid and late game TvT. Clem's skill-set does not give him an advantage in tank wars and mech vs mech. it's like playing a completely different RTS game compared to vZ and vP. early-game TvT is not particularly volatile or coin-flippy. yolo doom drops are manageable and are usually a sign of desperation. (early game*) raven vs raven comes down to skill, not luck. but yea, the positional tank and air control wars are probably not Clem's cup of tea Maru was nigh on unbeatable in TvT for a long stretch in the metas that essentially guaranteed him a mid and late game. And way more vulnerable since Clem himself has said it’s specifically the early game volatility that had him race pick to be more stable. Maru's vT winrates: LotV = 71% patch 5.0.11-present = 71% patch 5.0.14-present = 64% all of his defeats on the current patch were inflicted by GuMiho (bar one 2-3 series against Byun) the story of Maru in LotV is that he is nigh unbeatable in TvT, except for that one mirror nemesis who always shows up to ruin his day. first it was Innovation, then TY, then Cure, and now GuMiho if you want to credit Maru as being unbeatable in a match-up, it should be TvP. his overall vP winrate is is only marginally lower than his vT in LotV - but his overall form vP is better, and he hasn't had a serious protoss nemesis in LotV except maybe Maxpax Korean terrans are just built different in TvT. there is a greater pool of high-performance players for Korean terrans to practice mirror. in Europe there is only Clem and Gabe it is a lot easier for Clem to prepare PvT, since the range of play is a lot smaller for terran in that match-up compared to TvT. you don't have to worry about mech or long drawn-out positional play. TvP is a lot more straight-forward than that, and the games tend not to drag on beyond 10 minutes During the period Maru could basically open the same way most games, not die and almost guarantee a mid game and beyond on a good footing, his TvT numbers were ridiculous. Nowadays you’ve such a technical early game with such a huge amount of variation, that any of the top 5/6 Terrans can beat each other if they choice upon the correct build more often than not. So many games snowball from the first mini-push It’s 100% why Clem is playing PvT, he would rather have a stable early game with his off race than an unstable one with his main.
Even in the period where you could guarantee a mid-late game his TvT was severely weaker than his other matchups though, indicating he's just not as good at the positional play.
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On July 23 2025 08:04 TeamMamba wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2025 07:28 darklycid wrote:On July 23 2025 07:17 Poopi wrote:
On the other hand even if he knows it’s coming he is not as strong as MaxPax/herO/Classic/Zoun at holding those builds I guess?
I mean Even though Cure is struggling in TvP he is still a class above ShoWTimE
I mean cure Just lost His Last 3 matches against Showtime idk If you can say He is a class above, He Just was very Well prepped Here. Cure is definitely the favourite against showtime. In big tournaments showtimes has NEVER upset anyone especially Koreans. Showtime beats who he supposed to beat and always lose to anyone who is the favourite. Even if the matchup is 50-50, showtime usually or always loses. I can’t name one tournament where there was an exception to this showtime rule
Well, there were 2 pretty famous exceptions. At Blizzcon 2016 he beat ByuN who went on to win the tournament. At Blizzcon 2018 he beat Dark (but lost in the rematch)
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PREDICTIONS:
Zoun>ByuN
Shin>Trigger
Showtime>Cyan
Rogue>Heromarine
Solar>Clem
Maru>Reynor
herO>Cure
Serral>Classic
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United Kingdom38255 Posts
On July 23 2025 17:01 CicadaSC wrote:
PREDICTIONS:
Zoun>ByuN
Shin>Trigger
Showtime>Cyan
Rogue>Heromarine
Solar>Clem
Maru>Reynor
herO>Cure
Serral>Classic
I am going
Byun > Zoun
Shin > Trigger
Showtime > Cyan
Rogue > Heromarine
Clem > Solar
Reynor > Maru
herO > Cure
Classic > Serral
Zoun's an interesting one. He looked very good earlier this year but feels like he's slipped a bit and Byun's TvP has been quite good, at least online.
I'm backing Reynor today. I think he's got a few things cooking and I'm still not convinced on where Maru is (though I felt the same at Dallas so...)
Classic vs Serral should be great, but I think right now given form and overall trends I think Classic can take that.
I'd expect him to win, but I'm putting Rogue on upset watch. Gabe has had some nice offbeat prep so far and I think there's room for him to catch Rogue out
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On July 23 2025 17:42 Asha wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2025 17:01 CicadaSC wrote:
PREDICTIONS:
Zoun>ByuN
Shin>Trigger
Showtime>Cyan
Rogue>Heromarine
Solar>Clem
Maru>Reynor
herO>Cure
Serral>Classic I am going Byun > Zoun Shin > Trigger Showtime > Cyan Rogue > Heromarine Clem > Solar Reynor > Maru herO > Cure Classic > Serral Zoun's an interesting one. He looked very good earlier this year but feels like he's slipped a bit and Byun's TvP has been quite good, at least online. I'm backing Reynor today. I think he's got a few things cooking and I'm still not convinced on where Maru is (though I felt the same at Dallas so...) Classic vs Serral should be great, but I think right now given form and overall trends I think Classic can take that. I'd expect him to win, but I'm putting Rogue on upset watch. Gabe has had some nice offbeat prep so far and I think there's room for him to catch Rogue out
Most of these are possible to me that I was going back and forth on, but byun has not impressed me recently and terrans seem to be struggling vs toss so after he could barely beat astrea I think Zoun being a step up in level could pose problems, and we saw his tvp vs clem as well. As for Serral and Classic, that is the other one that would surprise me. Classic seems pretty passive and when he does attack it tends to be non commital. Serral is the late game king so I feel like he will be playing into his hands if he goes passive.
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What Zoun just did in the first game against ByuN should not work.
Funny though lmao.
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holy protoss... not only did byun get away with the 3cc for long enough for it to pay off, so that his 3rd was just faster than zouns, BUT he also predicted the storm follow up and went almost a pure marauder midgame. no good targets for the storm but it didnt matter.
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On July 23 2025 19:19 CicadaSC wrote:
holy protoss... not only did byun get away with the 3cc for long enough for it to pay off, so that his 3rd was just faster than zouns, BUT he also predicted the storm follow up and went almost a pure marauder midgame. no good targets for the storm but it didnt matter.
He also bathed in the Storms and over-stimmed (with a low Medivac count because of his delayed tech) but sure, frame this as a Protoss problem...
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On July 23 2025 19:21 MJG wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2025 19:19 CicadaSC wrote:
holy protoss... not only did byun get away with the 3cc for long enough for it to pay off, so that his 3rd was just faster than zouns, BUT he also predicted the storm follow up and went almost a pure marauder midgame. no good targets for the storm but it didnt matter. He also bathed in the Storms and over-stimmed (with a low Medivac count because of his delayed tech) but sure, frame this as a Protoss problem...
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On July 23 2025 19:21 MJG wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2025 19:19 CicadaSC wrote:
holy protoss... not only did byun get away with the 3cc for long enough for it to pay off, so that his 3rd was just faster than zouns, BUT he also predicted the storm follow up and went almost a pure marauder midgame. no good targets for the storm but it didnt matter. He also bathed in the Storms and over-stimmed (with a low Medivac count because of his delayed tech) but sure, frame this as a Protoss problem...
he was pressed all the way to the back of his natural. where do you want him to go? unless you mean the first storm on zouns side of the map that killed, 5 marines, then sure.
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United Kingdom38255 Posts
On July 23 2025 19:21 MJG wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2025 19:19 CicadaSC wrote:
holy protoss... not only did byun get away with the 3cc for long enough for it to pay off, so that his 3rd was just faster than zouns, BUT he also predicted the storm follow up and went almost a pure marauder midgame. no good targets for the storm but it didnt matter. He also bathed in the Storms and over-stimmed (with a low Medivac count because of his delayed tech) but sure, frame this as a Protoss problem...
He was completely pre split and still not only had to give up the third but got straight up busted into a bunker and widow mined nat after haha.
he did over stim though.
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Byun didnt make Ghost immediately quick enough and they showed up too late.
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On July 23 2025 19:23 CicadaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2025 19:21 MJG wrote:On July 23 2025 19:19 CicadaSC wrote:
holy protoss... not only did byun get away with the 3cc for long enough for it to pay off, so that his 3rd was just faster than zouns, BUT he also predicted the storm follow up and went almost a pure marauder midgame. no good targets for the storm but it didnt matter. He also bathed in the Storms and over-stimmed (with a low Medivac count because of his delayed tech) but sure, frame this as a Protoss problem... he was pressed all the way to the back of his natural. where do you want him to go? unless you mean the first storm on zouns side of the map that killed, 5 marines, then sure.
It didn't matter where he went.
Marauders are only good against Storms because they have high maximum health.
But if Marauders are over-stimmed and don't have enough Medivac support to heal them, their high maximum health no longer matters.
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ByuN fights back! thank goodness, i would have been so sad to see him go down 0 3 and eliminated.
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Zoun going back into Colossi when there were still plenty of Vikings on the field felt like an error.
Good play from ByuN.
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insane multitasking. observer why not show first person now instead of at most random moments XD
(and for those not a fan at least picture in picture Fpv)
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Byun Looks quite good when He hets to These Later stages (although His libs are Always too late i think).
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Zoun's Disruptor usage has been pretty terrible.
He's hitting his own units a lot.
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On July 23 2025 19:57 MJG wrote:
Zoun's Disruptor usage has been pretty terrible.
He's hitting his own units a lot.
Strange because pre-military Zoun had the best disruptor control in the business.
Maybe he's just overwhelmed by Byun's multitasking and that's why his control is off.
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EPT
