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Northern Ireland26505 Posts
On July 27 2025 00:08 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2025 23:50 Nasigil1 wrote:On July 26 2025 22:40 Elhierro-tarih wrote:On July 26 2025 21:45 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On July 26 2025 21:05 Elhierro-tarih wrote:
Players get better and better as the years go by. I don't believe there's a Protoss in the world who could beat Serral in a BO7 series. He calculates everything that could happen and immediately takes action.
However, I have a different opinion on Terran vs. Zerg. I think there's a chance that Maru could beat Serral in a BO7 series. Maru is a player who doesn't tire out, especially in the late game and as the series drags on. Also, as everyone says, he uses Ghost very well on TVZ. His mech builds are quite solid. Another thing that Maru does better than Cure is that it he can stop the nydus channels built into his base and defend these kind of attacks very well. I wish we could have seen the Maru vs. Serral match.
Other than that there are more than one zerg players who can beat serral in ZvZ. Even Solar can do it. Korean Zergs has plenty of tricks and tactics in ZvZ and this match up has limited. Serral can reach limits that exceed human limits in TVZ and PVZ because he has the chance to create such a combination. In ZVZ, however, because those limits are limited, other players can catch up with him. Not sure if you've come back to SC2 after a long while, but Maru has struggled consistently vs Serral the last several years. Also, he states he thinks he struggles in weekender tournaments because his shoulder tires out by the later stages of the tournament, that is a big reason he similar to MVP has shifted from aggression to leaning more on defensive, passive, lower APM styles like turtling with ghosts (until the supply nerf to 3) and now mech. However, i do think his mech play looked pretty good this EWC, and i would have liked to see how it'd fare vs Serral. I also was curious how Solar vs Serral would have looked if he brought his top form (not what he brought to the 3rd place match, in which he probably just didn't have his heart into it). Maru beated Reynor in this tournament . I think Reynor level is quite high one of the best zers in the world. I'M sure he's in top 5 even top3. He also only lost to 3-2 serral. if maru has medical situation this is another story but with good health I think Maru the only guy who can beat Serral in TvZ. I'm not saying he's gonna beat him %100 . he's the closest one with all of terrans in the world.. And if we talk about playing game I can beat you in 1vs1 even for after long time. It's dangerous to use Reynor as a reference because he has the rare talent of always go 50-50 with whoever he's playing. I can easily raise a counter argument: Maru couldn't even beat Cure in TvT, and Cure got swept by Serral in ZvT. By this logic Maru has no chance against Serral. So what makes you think Reynor 2:3 Maru and 2:3 Serral is an indicator of Maru could hang with Serral? It's not even the Scoreline. I remember the WTL Finals when Vitality send out Maru *again* to fight Serral and it felt like bullying. Two games and Maru basically never crossed the middle-line, he just rolled over. I know that was last year, but it really looked like Maru had just given up on trying to fight Serral So yeah, in the matchup against Serral, I would pick Clem every day over Maru. Would have done that even before EWC '24
I feel their epic, epic game on Radhuset Station in Katowice pretty much broke Maru when it came to not just that match, but subsequently.
He played like a god, playing that defensive Maru style, on a map not great for it to say the least. But still lost, and it just seemed to drain him for the rest of that series, and subsequently he got smacked.
It’s easily the best TvZ he’s played the past 2 years in terms of having to raise his game, playing that all-action defensive macro style.
He can still hit those heights, I don’t know if he can play like that for a series anymore, just with his physical issues or whatever.
If I’m Maru, it’s like, ‘what the fuck do I do?’. Against any other Zerg he can whip out an 8 rax, he can play battlemech, or just mech, mix in some wonky timings.
Serral simply doesn’t die to the various things Maru’s been throwing out the last while, that can reliably beat other Zergs. We saw he cooked up sufficient things to beat Reynor in solid fashion just this EWC.
I also think it goes under the radar that Serral is constantly shaving off weaknesses, such that they are. And in ZvT he doesn’t just sit back and go macro mode 9/10 as much as he used to. He’s no SHIN or Dark, but he’ll throw in the odd fiendish all-in, so as Maru you also have to worry about that and can’t just blind counter Serral without risk.
Anyway, I think Maru probably correctly surmised he’d have to beat Serral in mechanical slugfests, and he threw the kitchen sink at him and couldn’t break him.
Some may feel I’m putting too much importance on one set, or playing armchair psychologist but I really do feel Maru’s belief he could beat Serral got shattered by that game.
I’ve rewatched it quite a few times, I’d really recommend others do. Hell I’ve watched both first person’s from the reps. Maru plays out of his mind but Serral rises to it.
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France12911 Posts
Maru is probably too old to beat Serral nowadays, and it feels like Serral is too old to reliably beat Clem nowadays.
While I don’t think players become as « obsolete » in esports as they grow older than 25, in a 1v1 game as mechanically demanding as sc2 you are at a disadvantage.
Faker can still win worlds being a « old » progamer, because he can still be clutch and be a strong midlaner, but he isn’t better than everyone else like in his prime (2015-2017?) -> however it’s a team game and Faker got INno’s Young brother Gumayusi as a top 3 player in his role and relatively Young, the best support, etc.
I don’t think the Rhaduset game broke Maru though, it’s just « aah damn it Even that isn’t enough »
Oliveira series was probably more mind shattering to Maru if I were to guess
It’s not that big a deal to play his best and lose to another player playing Even better
But losing to a Guy you used to beat 90% of the Times in practice on the biggest stage?
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Northern Ireland26505 Posts
On July 27 2025 01:12 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2025 00:52 Sharp-Plant-2146 wrote:
Maru is better TvZ Player than Clem. Period. Who says differently no idea about starcraft. It’s a 1 post user but there is an interesting perspective to have about this imo. Maru is the complementary TvZ player of Clem -> he is probably more solid vs other KR zergs, especially Shin and Solar, while Clem weirdly struggles vs them. Otoh Clem has the best recent TvZ record vs Serral while Maru’s style doesn’t work at all nowadays vs Serral. Imo if you combine Maru and Clem you obtain a nigh invincible TvZ player
Someone needs to fund a tag team showmatch! Maru and Clem versus all the elite Zergs. Probably a limit on how much swapping they can do to add some element of planning and strategy. Make it happen!
I think Maru overall has the better TvZ, or at least more solid over a longer stretch, with way more variety. But in a mechanical slugfest, getting to play the game he wants, Clem’s peak is higher.
Styles make fights to a degree. Maru struggles hugely against a player just as methodical and mechanical as him in Serral, but he can deal with Reynor’s crazy speed that’s less patient. Serral can deal with well, everyone by being methodical except Clem:
Regardless I think Maru, Clem and Inno are the 3 best TvZers we’ve seen, whatever order you put them in.
I can’t really think of many close, at least as notably good TvZers. Mvp, Taeja had periods of being fantastic too, but they were just generally good all-rounders. Those 3 have had TvZs that were particularly scary
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On July 27 2025 03:41 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2025 01:12 Poopi wrote:On July 27 2025 00:52 Sharp-Plant-2146 wrote:
Maru is better TvZ Player than Clem. Period. Who says differently no idea about starcraft. It’s a 1 post user but there is an interesting perspective to have about this imo. Maru is the complementary TvZ player of Clem -> he is probably more solid vs other KR zergs, especially Shin and Solar, while Clem weirdly struggles vs them. Otoh Clem has the best recent TvZ record vs Serral while Maru’s style doesn’t work at all nowadays vs Serral. Imo if you combine Maru and Clem you obtain a nigh invincible TvZ player Someone needs to fund a tag team showmatch! Maru and Clem versus all the elite Zergs. Probably a limit on how much swapping they can do to add some element of planning and strategy. Make it happen! I think Maru overall has the better TvZ, or at least more solid over a longer stretch, with way more variety. But in a mechanical slugfest, getting to play the game he wants, Clem’s peak is higher. Styles make fights to a degree. Maru struggles hugely against a player just as methodical and mechanical as him in Serral, but he can deal with Reynor’s crazy speed that’s less patient. Serral can deal with well, everyone by being methodical except Clem: Regardless I think Maru, Clem and Inno are the 3 best TvZers we’ve seen, whatever order you put them in. I can’t really think of many close, at least as notably good TvZers. Mvp, Taeja had periods of being fantastic too, but they were just generally good all-rounders. Those 3 have had TvZs that were particularly scary
Yeah Clem is incredibly good at playing the game he wants but he has less range and struggles when thrown into unfamiliar situations. That's why players like Rogue, Dark or herO did that well against him. I remember when Clem first had his first breakout and was beating Serral and Reynor over and over, then he faced Dark and got crushed because Dark just refused to let him play his game. Classic recognized this weakness of his as well and beat him with clever builds this tournament
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On July 27 2025 02:59 WombaT wrote:Some may feel I’m putting too much importance on one set, or playing armchair psychologist but I really do feel Maru’s belief he could beat Serral got shattered by that game.
no no, i feel the same way,
i'm not sure i'm correct, but i do feel that Serral does this on purpose against important opponents.
for example at 2025 DH Dallas, in the Ro8, Classic 3:2 Serral. there was a long game on Incorporeal with Classic doing his defensive style.
next time they met in 2025 EWC this week, at the gr. B qual match Serral 3:0 Classic, sending him down to lower bracket.
there was a game on Incorporeal again, that lasted like forever, with Serral having a bank of something like ~8k/6k.
i thought he is playing with the food, but thinking about it again, maybe he was very careful, making sure he wins. and by my theory, breaks Classic's mind in the process. anyways, after about 35 minutes, he took a somewhat rushed engagement where he lost almost all his army and had to build like 40 corruptors, form some brood lords, and not make any mistakes to be able to win the game.
hmm maybe this long buildup wasn't only torture, but it was the correct and safe way to have the bank for that one remax.
in the finals Classic hesitated to do this defensive style against Serral.
there were a few more cases where, i remember, i thought that ok this map win was the one that breaks his opponent.
looking through Serral's match history, i think one more example is Masters Colliseum 8, the two series against MaxPax.
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loved to see State and the Cat Lady <3 at the event.
this key crushing ceremony is so fucking stupid.
triangles, man..
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Northern Ireland26505 Posts
On July 27 2025 03:09 Poopi wrote:
Maru is probably too old to beat Serral nowadays, and it feels like Serral is too old to reliably beat Clem nowadays.
While I don’t think players become as « obsolete » in esports as they grow older than 25, in a 1v1 game as mechanically demanding as sc2 you are at a disadvantage.
Faker can still win worlds being a « old » progamer, because he can still be clutch and be a strong midlaner, but he isn’t better than everyone else like in his prime (2015-2017?) -> however it’s a team game and Faker got INno’s Young brother Gumayusi as a top 3 player in his role and relatively Young, the best support, etc.
I don’t think the Rhaduset game broke Maru though, it’s just « aah damn it Even that isn’t enough »
Oliveira series was probably more mind shattering to Maru if I were to guess
It’s not that big a deal to play his best and lose to another player playing Even better
But losing to a Guy you used to beat 90% of the Times in practice on the biggest stage?
Is Inno’s younger brother an actual elite LoL player? That’s pretty cool
‘Ah damnit it isn’t enough’ is exactly why I think it broke him, but others may disagree!
The Oliveira loss he can at least go, ‘shit I fucked that series up, always next year’,
I think StarCraft, or games like it are quite unique, and hard to gauge. The mechanics required are ridiculous, and more than other games. But also I think the benefits of cumulative experience are bigger as well.
A big, arguably the most underrated skill in SC, or games like it are things as simply as ‘can my army beat theirs, and should I engage?’ It can also be that internal calculus of ‘how much stuff do they likely have right now with that infrastructure?’. As well ofc as like just knowing BOs and stuff like that.
If you get older as a progamer, maybe your mechanics slip, but you’ll gather more and more of the latter.
I genuinely don’t know how much the cancel each other out, I do instinctively believe the knowledge and experience is absolutely huge in a game like SC with so many moving parts, and different game scenarios.
Why do players say like Dark and herO so frequently pull off ridiculous comebacks that don’t make sense even as an observer who can see everything? They’ve insane amounts of experience in so many different game scenarios is surely part of it.
Neither Serral, nor Flash are especially feared just for their mechanics across both SCs, although their mechanics are insane. It’s the brain, it’s assessing things accurately and responding better than anyone else.
That’s not going to decline with age, it’s just going to get better. So if you can even keep like 90-95% of your mechanical ability you’re probably going to improve with age (to a point)
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France12911 Posts
Yeah, INno younger brother is a 2 Times worlds champion, playing for the greatest team of all time and atm around top 2 / top 3 team. Sometimes INno watches his matches
The team is T1 which was previously SKT T1 so originated in sc:BW afaik
I could not get an INno shirt, but I got one of his brother 
I kinda agree though that playing at such an insane level (that Maru vs Serral game was just perfect StarCraft to me, no Matter the winner it was just pure joy to watch as a fan) and not winning could crush one’s spirit, but to me Maru’s mental going into games is more related to if he thinks he can win than anything else
Like if there is a patch that makes his defensive style optimal in TvZ and that he can use it to beat Serral, he could abuse it and win vs Serral no matter how many series he lost to him previously
Similarly, if RagnaroK or Solar find a way to beat Maru consistently, despite the mental edge Maru had previously, he could look as « defeated » as when playing Serral atm
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Just to make it weirder:
Faker and Gumayusi are very distant cousins. Like they are the 40th generation of some family. So essentially, Innovation and Faker are related...though I guess in a "small" country like South Korea that is to be expected at some point
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United States1919 Posts
On July 27 2025 04:37 Poopi wrote:Yeah, INno younger brother is a 2 Times worlds champion, playing for the greatest team of all time and atm around top 2 / top 3 team. Sometimes INno watches his matches The team is T1 which was previously SKT T1 so originated in sc:BW afaik I could not get an INno shirt, but I got one of his brother I kinda agree though that playing at such an insane level (that Maru vs Serral game was just perfect StarCraft to me, no Matter the winner it was just pure joy to watch as a fan) and not winning could crush one’s spirit, but to me Maru’s mental going into games is more related to if he thinks he can win than anything else Like if there is a patch that makes his defensive style optimal in TvZ and that he can use it to beat Serral, he could abuse it and win vs Serral no matter how many series he lost to him previously Similarly, if RagnaroK or Solar find a way to beat Maru consistently, despite the mental edge Maru had previously, he could look as « defeated » as when playing Serral atm
One of his sisters is a concert pianist and the others have equally impressive careers. All in all, INnoVation is probably the black sheep of the family given academics>video games and StarCraft II is relatively small game in Korea.
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I think the whole "Maru is better against every other Zerg, Clem is only best against Serral" idea is overblown, at least in last two years.
In last two years, Maru's record against top Zergs (in series)
1:5 Serral, 3:4 Dark, 2:1 Reynor, 3:1 Solar, 4:0 Shin, 1:0 Rogue
Clem's record against top Zergs (in series)
7:2 Serral, 8:4 Dark, 15:6 Reynor, 24:2 Solar (WTF), 14:6 Shin, 6:3 Rogue
Clem is at least on the same level, arguably better than Maru against other Zergs. Miles ahead of Maru against Serral. As of now he's no doubt the best TvZ player in the world. Through out career it's arguable, you can give it to Maru.
People are just shocked that Clem doesn't sweep every single Zerg player after his performance last EWC.
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On July 27 2025 08:15 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2025 04:37 Poopi wrote:Yeah, INno younger brother is a 2 Times worlds champion, playing for the greatest team of all time and atm around top 2 / top 3 team. Sometimes INno watches his matches The team is T1 which was previously SKT T1 so originated in sc:BW afaik I could not get an INno shirt, but I got one of his brother I kinda agree though that playing at such an insane level (that Maru vs Serral game was just perfect StarCraft to me, no Matter the winner it was just pure joy to watch as a fan) and not winning could crush one’s spirit, but to me Maru’s mental going into games is more related to if he thinks he can win than anything else Like if there is a patch that makes his defensive style optimal in TvZ and that he can use it to beat Serral, he could abuse it and win vs Serral no matter how many series he lost to him previously Similarly, if RagnaroK or Solar find a way to beat Maru consistently, despite the mental edge Maru had previously, he could look as « defeated » as when playing Serral atm One of his sisters is a concert pianist and the others have equally impressive careers. All in all, INnoVation is probably the black sheep of the family given academics>video games and StarCraft II is relatively small game in Korea.
What is Innovation up to nowadays? He didn't come back to SC2 but I don't think he switched back to SC1 either.
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On July 28 2025 04:07 argonautdice wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2025 08:15 Mizenhauer wrote:On July 27 2025 04:37 Poopi wrote:Yeah, INno younger brother is a 2 Times worlds champion, playing for the greatest team of all time and atm around top 2 / top 3 team. Sometimes INno watches his matches The team is T1 which was previously SKT T1 so originated in sc:BW afaik I could not get an INno shirt, but I got one of his brother I kinda agree though that playing at such an insane level (that Maru vs Serral game was just perfect StarCraft to me, no Matter the winner it was just pure joy to watch as a fan) and not winning could crush one’s spirit, but to me Maru’s mental going into games is more related to if he thinks he can win than anything else Like if there is a patch that makes his defensive style optimal in TvZ and that he can use it to beat Serral, he could abuse it and win vs Serral no matter how many series he lost to him previously Similarly, if RagnaroK or Solar find a way to beat Maru consistently, despite the mental edge Maru had previously, he could look as « defeated » as when playing Serral atm One of his sisters is a concert pianist and the others have equally impressive careers. All in all, INnoVation is probably the black sheep of the family given academics>video games and StarCraft II is relatively small game in Korea. What is Innovation up to nowadays? He didn't come back to SC2 but I don't think he switched back to SC1 either.
When he came back from the military I think he played a GSL qualifier or something like that but eventually stopped after that. Probably just gave it a shot and didn't feel the motivation anymore...which already was his biggest flaw anyway
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On July 28 2025 03:40 Nasigil1 wrote:
I think the whole "Maru is better against every other Zerg, Clem is only best against Serral" idea is overblown, at least in last two years.
In last two years, Maru's record against top Zergs (in series)
1:5 Serral, 3:4 Dark, 2:1 Reynor, 3:1 Solar, 4:0 Shin, 1:0 Rogue
Clem's record against top Zergs (in series)
7:2 Serral, 8:4 Dark, 15:6 Reynor, 24:2 Solar (WTF), 14:6 Shin, 6:3 Rogue
Clem is at least on the same level, arguably better than Maru against other Zergs. Miles ahead of Maru against Serral. As of now he's no doubt the best TvZ player in the world. Through out career it's arguable, you can give it to Maru.
People are just shocked that Clem doesn't sweep every single Zerg player after his performance last EWC.
14:6 against Shin is interesting though given that Maru has never lost a series to Shin in his career.
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Congratulations to the Bonjwa Serral, first annointed by myself in 2018 when he displayed the highest level of sc2 ever seen, and later accepted by the community my broadly for his skill.
Another well deseved victory sir.
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I assume also this would re-order Mizenhauers top players list?
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Thank you good to see it has been rectified, albeit a few years delay
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EPT
