EPTEsports World Cup 2025 - Page 52
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Waxangel
United States33437 Posts
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TeamMamba
106 Posts
On July 26 2025 04:41 Nasigil1 wrote: The more these people try to discredit Serral for lack of competition, the more they are undermining Maru as well. Since Maru also got vast majority of his achievement and GOAT argument from 2018 onwards as well, and he couldn't even win one world champ at this so called "weak" era, got thoroughly overshadowed by Serral the whole time. Maru's pre-2018 resume is nowhere near GOAT conversation. They just mad that Serral has been stomping Maru for almost a decade now. Also Maru accomplishment is pre 2018 was very basic. People like to bring up his victory in SSL. But if you look the bracket. Maru got very lucky and avoid all the top players. His path was one of the easiest. Maru achievement post 2018, to use his fans logic. Maru only started winning GSL once his peer got older or had to go to military I can easily say what classic did in 2025 (especially since he came back from military) was more impressive than anything Maru has done | ||
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TeamMamba
106 Posts
On July 26 2025 05:14 Promised_pain wrote: Ah, yes. There is so little to play for now when the prize pools are legit largest they have ever been (okay, maybe not 2025). We never saw WCS OR EWC level money in the so called "golden days" 2012 or whatever. But Maru doesn't take 500k tournaments seriously just GSL, right? 😂 Ya Maru was busy and laser focus winning those crowd funded GSL 2k first place tournament. Not to mention the GSL could barely find enough people to participate | ||
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onPHYRE
Bulgaria923 Posts
On July 26 2025 02:45 TheLordofAwesome wrote: Those 3 being Clem, Classic, and Reynor? Not sure Classic should be on that list after going 2-8 | ||
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TeamMamba
106 Posts
On July 26 2025 06:12 JJH777 wrote: EWC 2024 is the peak prize money for a single event but the total prize money in the scene is substantially lower than it was a decade ago. It was just spread out among a larger number of events which is far healthier because the money gets split between way more players than when all the money is in one event. It's even worse if you adjust for inflation. Nah. The EWC money spread for all parties were the best among all tournaments. Sure the total prize money in the scene might be higher in the past but majority of the players did not benefit from it. This is one of the reason GSL killed sc2 in Korean. 1st place got the lion share while everyone else literally got peanuts. That is not healthy for the scene. If you are not good enough to finish top 2 in GSL, you might as well quit. Since they will probably make more money working a minimum wage job | ||
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Agh
United States988 Posts
On July 26 2025 03:25 MJG wrote: It's not that unbelievable. The scene has only produced two or three top-level players in the time since Serral first won a world championship. Who is meant to knock him off his perch? It's actually incredibly mundane given the situation. MaxPax is a likely candidate but he'd have to actually play. Only Clem, Reynor, and Trigger have age on their side but even then they're pretty much at their peak in that regard. Krystianer maybe but he's still a ways off | ||
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onPHYRE
Bulgaria923 Posts
Serral has 3 (though many people as I do count is as 4) | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25757 Posts
On July 26 2025 06:47 Charoisaur wrote: Because most all time greats still playing aren't in their prime anymore. This is kind of a controversial opinion I guess because some people insist that players always get better and better with more cumulative practice time and declines don't exist, but among koreans it seems to be the consensus opinion. Dark and Inno said they felt slower and not as sharp anymore before they went to military, and Maru can't practice that much anymore due to injuries. Looking at the playstyles of the current players I also think it's fairly obvious, the youngest players are the fastest and rely on their mechanics to win while the older players are slower and rely on strategy, smart builds and experience to win. I feel it’s an area that some proper sit-down interviews would give some fascinating insight into. Props to those who have done this over the years, although Miz there are other potential subjects than soO (I kid!), I feel we are often feeding on relative scraps and having to extrapolate a lot from the odd quote over in foreign land. There is some debate on this in Brood War circles as well, although as far as I’m aware the closest to a consensus there is is that the post-Kespa era is of a higher level of skill, but perhaps with Kespa still existing it may be higher again. Although that’s partly down to the opening up of information sharing and whatnot as well. It’s not just raw mechanics either it’s all those extra tricks and optimisations that are pretty standard now. That can also raise the level of play even if players aren’t scaling up mechanically. As I routinely say, for me maybe the highest level game I’ve ever seen when factoring in both players, Serral versus Maru on Radhuset Station at Katowice. Maybe the highest level series mechanically I’ve ever seen was Clem versus Serral at EWC. Both were just last year. Maru played out of his mind that set, but for some reason decided to play that style on one of the worst maps to do it. Which is a very Maru thing to do. With Maru alas, injuries are a factor. I think with him he can pull a game out as good, or better than anything he showed in the Kespa era, but he doesn’t appear able to play whole series at his peak level anymore, never mind a whole tournament. | ||
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geokilla
Canada8244 Posts
On July 26 2025 05:14 Promised_pain wrote: Ah, yes. There is so little to play for now when the prize pools are legit largest they have ever been (okay, maybe not 2025). We never saw WCS OR EWC level money in the so called "golden days" 2012 or whatever. But Maru doesn't take 500k tournaments seriously just GSL, right? 😂 I never said that. All I said is that the skill level decreased. Prize pool is higher because Saudi Arabia started funding sports and esports a few years ago. Do I care about the politics? Not really. I'm just focused on the skill level. Serral is clearly the best player of this era and in the past few years, but I wouldn't say he's the goat of SC2. Just like how LeBron is the greatest in this era and Michael Jordan was the greatest in his era. But to say Michael is the goat in basketball is what I don't agree with because different eras have a different game. The only goats I agree with are probably s1mple when he dominated CS:GO, and faker because he's still destroying everyone except for maybe Chovy right now. However his longevity more than makes up for it. With regards to prize pool, I don't think it matters as much as some people think. In other eSports, players are paid a salary, with some as much as tens of thousands a month. I don't see why SC2 players are treated any differently. If they relied solely on EWC to make a living, then we truly have a dead game and dead scene. | ||
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Antithesis
Germany1205 Posts
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Lexender
Mexico2650 Posts
On July 26 2025 07:08 onPHYRE wrote: I always wonder why in this “easy” era of SC2, Maru hasn’t won any world titles? He has been to a single final in a world championship event in his career and lost to Olivera. Serral has 3 (though many people as I do count is as 4) I honestly don't think Maru has any passion left to put the care into getting into top shape. Dude played his first professional game when he was in middle school, lived his teenage years in a team house playing 10 hours a day instead of going to highschool normaly, of the 28 years hes been alive 15 are being a full time pro. He probably thinks about SC2 like having an office job or something. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25757 Posts
On July 26 2025 09:34 geokilla wrote: I never said that. All I said is that the skill level decreased. Prize pool is higher because Saudi Arabia started funding sports and esports a few years ago. Do I care about the politics? Not really. I'm just focused on the skill level. Serral is clearly the best player of this era and in the past few years, but I wouldn't say he's the goat of SC2. Just like how LeBron is the greatest in this era and Michael Jordan was the greatest in his era. But to say Michael is the goat in basketball is what I don't agree with because different eras have a different game. The only goats I agree with are probably s1mple when he dominated CS:GO, and faker because he's still destroying everyone except for maybe Chovy right now. However his longevity more than makes up for it. I think you forgot Flash in BW :p I think he’s similarly kinda unarguable. But I think there are relatively few GOATs around who you can’t really dispute. Wayne Gretzky in ice hockey, Donald Bradman in cricket. Usain Bolt in sprinting. But they’re generally the exception. Bradman may indeed be the GOAT sportsman of all time relative to competition, given his insane outlying numbers that are frankly bizarre. For a ballpark reference a 50 batting average in Tests over a decent span is basically the undisputed elite benchmark. A handful have crossed the 60 barrier, but basically all who did so played relatively few Tests, so it wasn’t a long career average. Bradman is rocking a cool 99.94 Enough about my debilitating love of cricket though. I don’t personally think the skill level has decreased, I think it’s maybe increased at a slower rate than it might have in alternate realities though for sure. Speaking of best sportsmen of all time, what about the best eSportsmen? This topic doesn’t come up too much, and probably for good reason. I don’t know a single LoL hero, but I know who Faker is and his reputation and record in a game that’s still huge. I think Flash and Serral should be locks for a top 10 at least, I think it’s easier to place players in 1v1 games as the team element is lessened. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25757 Posts
On July 26 2025 09:52 Lexender wrote: I honestly don't think Maru has any passion left to put the care into getting into top shape. Dude played his first professional game when he was in middle school, lived his teenage years in a team house playing 10 hours a day instead of going to highschool normaly, of the 28 years hes been alive 15 are being a full time pro. He probably thinks about SC2 like having an office job or something. Maybe now, and it might not be passion but just his physical condition. Not having a WC is the big gap in his resume, he’s seen two teammates that he’s better than win multiple ones each. They have big prize pools. I think we’re maybe at the stage now where he can’t physically do it shape wise, but Maru would have to lack an interest in both prestige and his standing in the game, and money to not have been focusing to get that WC over the line, I don’t personally hold it massively against him, it’s hard to win a World Champ, and he’s consistently pretty close. However, people who argue that Serral’s achievements need levelled down because it’s an easy era do have to factor in Maru’s lack of a WC if they’re going to make that argument. | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2650 Posts
On July 26 2025 10:14 WombaT wrote: Maybe now, and it might not be passion but just his physical condition. Not having a WC is the big gap in his resume, he’s seen two teammates that he’s better than win multiple ones each. They have big prize pools. I think we’re maybe at the stage now where he can’t physically do it shape wise, but Maru would have to lack an interest in both prestige and his standing in the game, and money to not have been focusing to get that WC over the line, I don’t personally hold it massively against him, it’s hard to win a World Champ, and he’s consistently pretty close. However, people who argue that Serral’s achievements need levelled down because it’s an easy era do have to factor in Maru’s lack of a WC if they’re going to make that argument. The big thing is that Maru was a top player during the old era, would the Kespa enviroment hold he probably would have been much less dominant, if at all, but he still carries the idea of old times and as the scene shrinks its hard not to remember those years with rose tinted glasses. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10352 Posts
Also obligatory: that was a great mech match. Mech games can be highly exciting. Now we have not only Maru vs Stats from GSL which was really exciting to watch, but Reynor vs Maru. Also: That last game Serral played vs Classic was insane. He had like a 5-step aggression, and the first step itself was already a 3-prong attack. Attacking his main, natural, third, fourth, all at once, going back and forth with the droperlords. Insane the amount of perfection and foresight you would have needed to deflect all that without taking significant probe damage. It was relentless and Serral absolutely deserved the win, I couldn't even feel bad or disappointed in Classic. For a game like SC2, there is a defender's advantage of course. The logical conclusion to "counter" or avoid being in this situation and allowing Serral to setup all this aggression is to cause fires on Serral's side of the map. How though as Protoss, idk. | ||
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Nasigil1
114 Posts
On July 26 2025 10:28 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Really too bad that Reynor lost such a close 2-3 to Clem last year and 2-3 to Serral this year. Despite being knocked out so early, he was easily one of the best players and could have been placed top 3. But he once again gave perhaps the most entertaining match of the year. Last year, Reynor vs Clem iirc was a great match. And this year, Reynor vs Maru was amazing. That one game (g2 i think? i forget) there were minutes at a time of back and forth non-stop action and reinforcing, and at the end it was just so hard to tell who was winning until the final moment. Also obligatory: that was a great mech match. Mech games can be highly exciting. Now we have not only Maru vs Stats from GSL which was really exciting to watch, but Reynor vs Maru. Also: That last game Serral played vs Classic was insane. He had like a 5-step aggression, and the first step itself was already a 3-prong attack. Attacking his main, natural, third, fourth, all at once, going back and forth with the droperlords. Insane the amount of perfection and foresight you would have needed to deflect all that without taking significant probe damage. It was relentless and Serral absolutely deserved the win, I couldn't even feel bad or disappointed in Classic. For a game like SC2, there is a defender's advantage of course. The logical conclusion to "counter" or avoid being in this situation and allowing Serral to setup all this aggression is to cause fires on Serral's side of the map. How though as Protoss, idk. Reynor always goes 50-50 against anyone he plays. Against the eventual champ in their best shape? 50-50, almost had them. Against the worst player in the tournament? 50-50, barely got out alive. Even on his only WC win, he did it by going to deciding match almost every series. Dude is just incapable of dominant wins or quick losses. Always close, always entertaining. I appreciate players like Reynor. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1783 Posts
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Husyelt
United States836 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10352 Posts
True i never realized that. Interesting how the way he plays leads to close matches. It would be easy to understand if for example, you coinflipped every game, but that's not the reason for him. For me, I enjoyed the Top 8 a lot still. Serral vs Reynor 8.5/10, Maru vs Cure 8/10, Solar vs herO 6.5/10, Clem vs Classic 8.25/10. Something like that. Top 4 was a bit disappointing though I'd agree, Serral vs Cure was a 6/10 (how does a 3 base terran that gets zerg onto 2 mining base allow the zerg to triple expand for free and get back into the game? and how do you siege a base with mech and, even with 2-3 minutes of time you never split your tanks vs blinding cloud? and clump all your thors up again vs ~8 BLs and get blinding clouded, the only way to lose that fight?), and Solar vs Classic was a 7/10. Solar vs Cure was a 5.5/10 but i don't mind too much, both players must be disheartened and not really into it. It is disappointing though when seeing how good Solar vs Clem was for example. The level of play just seemed so different, like another day in the GSL. Of course, grands was also slightly disappointing, but Classic at least getting things to 2-3 made the rest seem possible enough to be engaged. But it was a 7/10 at best because the first few games Classic felt like he was trying stupid stuff instead of using his impeccable storm defense and get a strong lategame army like in their last match. I was hoping for a 5-3 but 5-2 is reasonable since it's Serral. Maybe my expectations were just low due to the Clem 5-0 last year haha. I guess i do remember how intense things were in Gamers8. Perhaps a big part of that is Reynor and how close many of the matches were. It felt like all the players wanted it so so bad and it showed in their play but again it might just be because of how close the games were. It does feel like EWC this and last year pales a bit compared to that tournament. This year I'd still give a 8.5/10 though tournament wise. The level of play is more exciting and intense and makes SC2 look like a different game than in other tournaments. But now that it's pointed out, when I think of it yeah I remember last year we had crazy matches like Cure vs Classic or Gumiho vs Showtime. Even stuff like Creator vs Serral at Gamers8 was exciting. Maybe Gamers8 was a 9/10 (held back by Reynor rolling Cure in Grands, coulda been a 9.5/10 with a good finals) and the last EWC was a 8.5/10. GSLs of the last few years I'd put at a 7/10. MLG Anaheim I'd put at a 9.5/10, still probably one of the best tournaments at a time magic was happening, SC2 was hype af at the time. | ||
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PremoBeats
504 Posts
The best Protoss won against the best Terran, the 2nd best Terran won against the 2nd best Zerg and the best Zerg, who happens to be the biggest outlier in the history of the game, won against the best Protoss. We have a final standing of each race being represented in the top 3 spots of the World Championship. But the live chats I was able to watch as well as this very thread are so full of balance whine and salt that it truly is hard to believe. I think it is a disgrace to the players and the effort they put in. Overall, I believe it was good to rework the play-in, as last year Showtime and Shin only had one game before being kicked out again, which was sad to watch. Also the addition of the quarterfinal was a good idea, as we have seen that it nearly meant Serral not winning the entire thing. More knockout brackets simply means more thrill and more value when winning. I actually don’t mind the match for third place. It gives a build-up and regeneration for the finals, especially considering the player that played in the 2nd semis. GGs to Serral for winning! | ||
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