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darklycid
3541 Posts
On July 26 2025 03:42 aringadingding wrote: LOL, I dont know if you are joking or not. Sure, the scene is not the same as 10 years ago. But... come on dude. "mundande"? He isnt wrong tho the only ones coming Up that have shown the Potential are: reynor, clem. All Others are returning or older Players. | ||
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geokilla
Canada8245 Posts
On July 26 2025 03:47 darklycid wrote: He isnt wrong tho the only ones coming Up that have shown the Potential are: reynor, clem. All Others are returning or older Players. You forgot MaxPax, but he doesn't play offline. | ||
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darklycid
3541 Posts
On July 26 2025 03:58 geokilla wrote: You forgot MaxPax, but he doesn't play offline. I didnt include him because he neither plays offline nor has shown to be able to win a s tier event yet. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26505 Posts
On July 26 2025 03:25 MJG wrote: It's not that unbelievable. The scene has only produced two or three top-level players in the time since Serral first won a world championship. Who is meant to knock him off his perch? It's actually incredibly mundane given the situation. It’s pretty nuts, few people have done comparable things, even at lower levels of play. Special and TIME/Oliveira were pretty impregnable, but I can’t think of too many others. It’s less how much he wins, and how little he loses that is the crazy part. Obviously they’re rather interlinked of course! | ||
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aringadingding
480 Posts
On July 26 2025 03:47 darklycid wrote: He isnt wrong tho the only ones coming Up that have shown the Potential are: reynor, clem. All Others are returning or older Players. Sure, its a minur influx of people entering the scene that are on a very high level. But I think it is weird to disregard that many of the best players in the world of sc2 is still playing the game. So, do you think its mundane that Serral won this? I mean, I agree its not the same when the scene was booming, but many people who has been the best players in sc2 is still playing this game. I am arguing about the fact that "mundande" is a proper word for serrral wins. And just to be clear. I am a HUGE toss fan. Massive toss fan. Not a serral fan. I could make another post that deals with all the whining that people in here have had and on reddit, that is: toss is overpowered. Its broken. And having been arguing on reddit that some minor tournaments doesnt define the state, I am SORT OF happy to see that my doubts about the statements that toss is way OP based on minor tourneys, did in fact, crumble, when the biggest tourney arrived. | ||
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darklycid
3541 Posts
On July 26 2025 04:13 aringadingding wrote: Sure, its a minur influx of people entering the scene that are on a very high level. But I think it is weird to disregard that many of the best players in the world of sc2 is still playing the game. So, do you think its mundane that Serral won this? I mean, I agree its not the same when the scene was booming, but many people who has been the best players in sc2 is still playing this game. I am arguing about the fact that "mundande" is a proper word for serrral wins. And just to be clear. I am a HUGE toss fan. Massive toss fan. Not a serral fan. I could make another post that deals with all the whining that people in here have had and on reddit, that is: toss is overpowered. Its broken. And having been arguing on reddit that some minor tournaments doesnt define the state, I am SORT OF happy to see that my doubts about the statements that toss is way OP based on minor tourneys, did in fact, crumble, when the biggest tourney arrived. Eh outside of the reynor series none of serrals series have been of much interest to me tbh. | ||
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MJG
United Kingdom1450 Posts
On July 26 2025 03:42 aringadingding wrote: LOL, I dont know if you are joking or not. Sure, the scene is not the same as 10 years ago. But... come on dude. "mundande"? I'm sorry if my relentless realism bothers you. | ||
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Malinor
Germany4734 Posts
On July 26 2025 03:25 MJG wrote: It's not that unbelievable. The scene has only produced two or three top-level players in the time since Serral first won a world championship. Who is meant to knock him off his perch? It's actually incredibly mundane given the situation. I am absolutely one of the viewers / SC lovers, that recognizes how little competition is left and it majorly impacts my enjoyment of watching SC2. It has been very stale for quite a few years. I am also in constant disbelieve how SC:BW viewers can convince themselves, that the level of play in ASL is even remotely close to 2009-2011 (they go on and on about how much better the understanding of the game is today, but a lot of these advancements would just be crushed by the mechanics of 19 year olds in their prime that have been grinding 10+ hours of SC for 4 years and are just 10% faster than 30+ year old veterans that in the Kespa era were not close to being S-Class). It is simply a senior tour. And SC2 is honestly not that different MaxPax, Clem, Reynor are basically the only exceptions and there has been no new korean champion since forever. Maru is not in his prime anymore, and that goes for a lot of players. Prime Maru can go toe-to-toe with Serral. However, this is a different topic than observing Serral doing his thing. His quality as a player is so undenieable, his play is just spectacular and he is not slowing down. So while the scene itself has been bleeding out and the competition is not there anymore, he is just that good that the decline of everyone else does not really matter. In my humble opinion, obviously. | ||
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Kashim
Poland1222 Posts
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geokilla
Canada8245 Posts
On July 26 2025 04:13 aringadingding wrote: Sure, its a minur influx of people entering the scene that are on a very high level. But I think it is weird to disregard that many of the best players in the world of sc2 is still playing the game. So, do you think its mundane that Serral won this? I mean, I agree its not the same when the scene was booming, but many people who has been the best players in sc2 is still playing this game. I am arguing about the fact that "mundande" is a proper word for serrral wins. In my opinion, the skill level of top SC2 players has dropped in the past few years, with the main reason probably being due to players not grinding it out as much as they did in the past since there's so little to play for now. Scrims and online cups are not nearly as serious as real competition in a tournament environment, whether it be a weekend tournament or the GSL Code A and Code S preparation tournament. | ||
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Nasigil1
114 Posts
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LostUsername100
96 Posts
On July 26 2025 04:41 Nasigil1 wrote: The more these people try to discredit Serral for lack of competition, the more they are undermining Maru as well. Since Maru also got vast majority of his achievement and GOAT argument from 2018 onwards as well, and he couldn't even win one world champ at this so called "weak" era, got thoroughly overshadowed by Serral the whole time. Maru's pre-2018 resume is nowhere near GOAT conversation. The gymnastics and coping will never end. I can only imagine how upset some of them are lol. | ||
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MJG
United Kingdom1450 Posts
On July 26 2025 04:04 WombaT wrote: It’s pretty nuts, few people have done comparable things, even at lower levels of play. Special and TIME/Oliveira were pretty impregnable, but I can’t think of too many others. It’s less how much he wins, and how little he loses that is the crazy part. Obviously they’re rather interlinked of course! I'll use a British analogy that you'll hopefully understand. Phil Taylor dominated darts against a backdrop of ever increasing interest, ever increasing professionalisation, an ever increasing tournament scene, ever increasing numbers of people taking up the game, and an ever increasing range of challengers. Serral is dominating SC2 against a backdrop of ever decreasing interest, ever decreasing professionalisation, an ever decreasing tournament scene, ever decreasing numbers of people taking up the game, and an ever decreasing range of challengers. One of these situations is an example of remarkable dominance. The other is mundane dominance. I'll let you figure out which is which. | ||
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Gescom
Canada3509 Posts
On July 26 2025 04:59 MJG wrote: I'll use a British analogy that you'll hopefully understand. Phil Taylor dominated darts against a backdrop of ever increasing interest, ever increasing professionalisation, an ever increasing tournament scene, ever increasing numbers of people taking up the game, and an ever increasing range of challengers. Serral is dominating SC2 against a backdrop of ever decreasing interest, ever decreasing professionalisation, an ever decreasing tournament scene, ever decreasing numbers of people taking up the game, and an ever decreasing range of challengers. One of these situations is an example of remarkable dominance. The other is mundane dominance. I'll let you figure out which is which. I agree... but who gives a shit and why does it matter. We are where we are and nothing is going to change that. What is there to say other than GG Serral? | ||
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Promised_pain
Finland61 Posts
On July 26 2025 04:38 geokilla wrote: In my opinion, the skill level of top SC2 players has dropped in the past few years, with the main reason probably being due to players not grinding it out as much as they did in the past since there's so little to play for now. Scrims and online cups are not nearly as serious as real competition in a tournament environment, whether it be a weekend tournament or the GSL Code A and Code S preparation tournament. Ah, yes. There is so little to play for now when the prize pools are legit largest they have ever been (okay, maybe not 2025). We never saw WCS OR EWC level money in the so called "golden days" 2012 or whatever. But Maru doesn't take 500k tournaments seriously just GSL, right? 😂 | ||
Waxangel
United States33584 Posts
On July 26 2025 04:41 Nasigil1 wrote: The more these people try to discredit Serral for lack of competition, the more they are undermining Maru as well. Since Maru also got vast majority of his achievement and GOAT argument from 2018 onwards as well, and he couldn't even win one world champ at this so called "weak" era, got thoroughly overshadowed by Serral the whole time. Maru's pre-2018 resume is nowhere near GOAT conversation. I'm personally bought into the current era of SC2 and have Serral as my firm GOAT, but I do respect the more skeptical POV's. Gonna quote my post from an old goat thread: On January 31 2025 12:05 Waxangel wrote: While I personally have Serral as my GOAT by a slim margin over Rogue, I do have to respect the "nothing after 2017/18 matters" point of view. The uncomfortable truth is that we, the people who are left discussing this in 2025, are the worst people to look at the matter objectively. We're the group that's MOST bought in to competitive SC2, and the existential core of our fandom is that we believe that post-KeSPA and post-Blizzard history matters. I kind of wonder how boxing historians look at the competitors in the modern era (after the 2000's-ish) where the prestige and popularity of the sport has declined from its heyday. | ||
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JJH777
United States4415 Posts
On July 26 2025 05:14 Promised_pain wrote: Ah, yes. There is so little to play for now when the prize pools are legit largest they have ever been (okay, maybe not 2025). We never saw WCS OR EWC level money in the so called "golden days" 2012 or whatever. But Maru doesn't take 500k tournaments seriously just GSL, right? 😂 EWC 2024 is the peak prize money for a single event but the total prize money in the scene is substantially lower than it was a decade ago. It was just spread out among a larger number of events which is far healthier because the money gets split between way more players than when all the money is in one event. It's even worse if you adjust for inflation. | ||
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MJG
United Kingdom1450 Posts
On July 26 2025 05:10 Gescom wrote: I agree... but who gives a shit and why does it matter. We are where we are and nothing is going to change that. What is there to say other than GG Serral? Don't get me wrong, I had a great time watching this tournament. Great games throughout. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26505 Posts
On July 26 2025 04:59 MJG wrote: I'll use a British analogy that you'll hopefully understand. Phil Taylor dominated darts against a backdrop of ever increasing interest, ever increasing professionalisation, an ever increasing tournament scene, ever increasing numbers of people taking up the game, and an ever increasing range of challengers. Serral is dominating SC2 against a backdrop of ever decreasing interest, ever decreasing professionalisation, an ever decreasing tournament scene, ever decreasing numbers of people taking up the game, and an ever decreasing range of challengers. One of these situations is an example of remarkable dominance. The other is mundane dominance. I'll let you figure out which is which. Phil Taylor and Finn ‘The Power’ Serral have similarities, they’re pretty fucking dominant in their epochs by being a bit of an outlier. Phil’s numbers were still all-time good, but earlier in his career it was only him that could make those numbers. If his peak years were later on, he’s still going to be winning things, but not dominating as hard. Other players can match him now, and more of them. I think Serral is currently similar in that regard aye, just in a different order. I think it can simultaneously be true that Serral wouldn’t be quite as dominant if talent pipelines remained, but also that, for whatever reason it’s pretty demonstrable that existing greats couldn’t keep up with him overall. There are elements of mundanity, understandable but I think that comes with Serral being so darn complete as a player. It’s ridiculous. You look at the field other players may have a weak matchup, maybe a stylistic quirk, or they throw the odd game, or their set planning isn’t always on point. Just to the eye test, there are other elements to consider with the GOAT debate, but I find it hard to consider anyone else for the BOAT accolade. I think there are some pities in the post-Kespa era for sure. Inno never really fully locked in after he took WESG, and a motivated Inno versus Serral woulda been nice to see more of. And of course Maru and Serral consistently not meeting in tournaments until Maru had more miles on the clock. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16062 Posts
On July 26 2025 04:13 aringadingding wrote: Sure, its a minur influx of people entering the scene that are on a very high level. But I think it is weird to disregard that many of the best players in the world of sc2 is still playing the game. So, do you think its mundane that Serral won this? I mean, I agree its not the same when the scene was booming, but many people who has been the best players in sc2 is still playing this game. I am arguing about the fact that "mundande" is a proper word for serrral wins. And just to be clear. I am a HUGE toss fan. Massive toss fan. Not a serral fan. I could make another post that deals with all the whining that people in here have had and on reddit, that is: toss is overpowered. Its broken. And having been arguing on reddit that some minor tournaments doesnt define the state, I am SORT OF happy to see that my doubts about the statements that toss is way OP based on minor tourneys, did in fact, crumble, when the biggest tourney arrived. Because most all time greats still playing aren't in their prime anymore. This is kind of a controversial opinion I guess because some people insist that players always get better and better with more cumulative practice time and declines don't exist, but among koreans it seems to be the consensus opinion. Dark and Inno said they felt slower and not as sharp anymore before they went to military, and Maru can't practice that much anymore due to injuries. Looking at the playstyles of the current players I also think it's fairly obvious, the youngest players are the fastest and rely on their mechanics to win while the older players are slower and rely on strategy, smart builds and experience to win. | ||
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