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CicadaSC
United States1712 Posts
On July 26 2025 15:18 PremoBeats wrote: the 2nd best Terran won against the 2nd best Zerg and the best Zerg, who the 2nd best terran doesn't use ghosts TvZ? I still would give that spot to Maru. He is more of a complete player. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9384 Posts
On July 26 2025 15:18 PremoBeats wrote: We got the best possible race distribution of 3:3:2 in the Ro8. The best Protoss won against the best Terran, the 2nd best Terran won against the 2nd best Zerg and the best Zerg, who happens to be the biggest outlier in the history of the game, won against the best Protoss. We have a final standing of each race being represented in the top 3 spots of the World Championship. But the live chats I was able to watch as well as this very thread are so full of balance whine and salt that it truly is hard to believe. I think it is a disgrace to the players and the effort they put in. Overall, I believe it was good to rework the play-in, as last year Showtime and Shin only had one game before being kicked out again, which was sad to watch. Also the addition of the quarterfinal was a good idea, as we have seen that it nearly meant Serral not winning the entire thing. More knockout brackets simply means more thrill and more value when winning. I actually don’t mind the match for third place. It gives a build-up and regeneration for the finals, especially considering the player that played in the 2nd semis. GGs to Serral for winning! I think the bigger problem is the matchups. The versus Zerg matchups look somewhat "reasonable". However, I can't remember a bigger balance issue in mid-late game in many many years than what we have now in TvP. It feels like usually when we have balance issues it's because some race had an advantage in the early game and was able to take a lead and snowball. But this doesn't even really seem to be the case here. So Clem could possibly have beaten Serral but effectively had no chance against Classic and Classic had very little chance again Serral. | ||
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ZombieGrub
United States704 Posts
On July 26 2025 03:47 Waxangel wrote: I'm seeing casters suddenly use the "1 WC a year" counting method that no one has used before (INCLUDING THEMSELVES) and am getting irrationally annoyed about it  It's been used at least since 2019 and I honestly do not remember how they did it before then so this is a really odd comment. | ||
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Asha
United Kingdom38255 Posts
On July 26 2025 17:50 CicadaSC wrote: the 2nd best terran doesn't use ghosts TvZ? I still would give that spot to Maru. He is more of a complete player. 2nd best terran (Maru) beat 2nd best Zerg (Reynor)  (of course Maru lost both games he actually built ghosts in) -- It's not like Cure doesn't use Ghosts because he can't. Ghosts are just not great units right now. It's part of why you see more vanilla mech and 8 raxxing. You'll see Cure use them playing in ghostmech like he did vs Reynor in RSL when he could force the map into a big split war efficiency battle, but for the supply they often weaken your map control too much as they are much worse at holding down a position and you end up either getting straight overrun or outmanuovered | ||
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Elhierro-tarih
3 Posts
However, I have a different opinion on Terran vs. Zerg. I think there's a chance that Maru could beat Serral in a BO7 series. Maru is a player who doesn't tire out, especially in the late game and as the series drags on. Also, as everyone says, he uses Ghost very well on TVZ. His mech builds are quite solid. Another thing that Maru does better than Cure is that it he can stop the nydus channels built into his base and defend these kind of attacks very well. I wish we could have seen the Maru vs. Serral match. Other than that there are more than one zerg players who can beat serral in ZvZ. Even Solar can do it. Korean Zergs has plenty of tricks and tactics in ZvZ and this match up has limited. Serral can reach limits that exceed human limits in TVZ and PVZ because he has the chance to create such a combination. In ZVZ, however, because those limits are limited, other players can catch up with him. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10343 Posts
On July 26 2025 21:05 Elhierro-tarih wrote: Players get better and better as the years go by. I don't believe there's a Protoss in the world who could beat Serral in a BO7 series. He calculates everything that could happen and immediately takes action. However, I have a different opinion on Terran vs. Zerg. I think there's a chance that Maru could beat Serral in a BO7 series. Maru is a player who doesn't tire out, especially in the late game and as the series drags on. Also, as everyone says, he uses Ghost very well on TVZ. His mech builds are quite solid. Another thing that Maru does better than Cure is that it he can stop the nydus channels built into his base and defend these kind of attacks very well. I wish we could have seen the Maru vs. Serral match. Other than that there are more than one zerg players who can beat serral in ZvZ. Even Solar can do it. Korean Zergs has plenty of tricks and tactics in ZvZ and this match up has limited. Serral can reach limits that exceed human limits in TVZ and PVZ because he has the chance to create such a combination. In ZVZ, however, because those limits are limited, other players can catch up with him. Not sure if you've come back to SC2 after a long while, but Maru has struggled consistently vs Serral the last several years. Also, he states he thinks he struggles in weekender tournaments because his shoulder tires out by the later stages of the tournament, that is a big reason he similar to MVP has shifted from aggression to leaning more on defensive, passive, lower APM styles like turtling with ghosts (until the supply nerf to 3) and now mech. However, i do think his mech play looked pretty good this EWC, and i would have liked to see how it'd fare vs Serral. I also was curious how Solar vs Serral would have looked if he brought his top form (not what he brought to the 3rd place match, in which he probably just didn't have his heart into it). | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1712 Posts
On July 26 2025 18:56 Asha wrote: 2nd best terran (Maru) beat 2nd best Zerg (Reynor) (of course Maru lost both games he actually built ghosts in) -- It's not like Cure doesn't use Ghosts because he can't. Ghosts are just not great units right now. It's part of why you see more vanilla mech and 8 raxxing. You'll see Cure use them playing in ghostmech like he did vs Reynor in RSL when he could force the map into a big split war efficiency battle, but for the supply they often weaken your map control too much as they are much worse at holding down a position and you end up either getting straight overrun or outmanuovered terran dont need ghost to win late game (assuming they are playing bio) is news to me. Ghost might not be "great" but it is best tool for versatility. emp infestor, snipe lurker, snipe ultra, snipe brood, snipe/emp viper. playing without ghost even if they are not "great" is a massive handicap if you dont plan to kill them with a timing. Maybe i watch too much eu scene and dont know the game enough but eu i cant think of any top terran playing late game without ghost. You can try and kill with some 8 rax without ghost or drawn out "midgames" but if zerg stabilizes dont you need that? | ||
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Elhierro-tarih
3 Posts
On July 26 2025 21:45 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Not sure if you've come back to SC2 after a long while, but Maru has struggled consistently vs Serral the last several years. Also, he states he thinks he struggles in weekender tournaments because his shoulder tires out by the later stages of the tournament, that is a big reason he similar to MVP has shifted from aggression to leaning more on defensive, passive, lower APM styles like turtling with ghosts (until the supply nerf to 3) and now mech. However, i do think his mech play looked pretty good this EWC, and i would have liked to see how it'd fare vs Serral. I also was curious how Solar vs Serral would have looked if he brought his top form (not what he brought to the 3rd place match, in which he probably just didn't have his heart into it). Maru beated Reynor in this tournament . I think Reynor level is quite high one of the best zers in the world. I'M sure he's in top 5 even top3. He also only lost to 3-2 serral. if maru has medical situation this is another story but with good health I think Maru the only guy who can beat Serral in TvZ. I'm not saying he's gonna beat him %100 . he's the closest one with all of terrans in the world.. And if we talk about playing game I can beat you in 1vs1 even for after long time. | ||
Poopi
France12883 Posts
On July 26 2025 22:40 Elhierro-tarih wrote: Maru beated Reynor in this tournament . I think Reynor level is quite high one of the best zers in the world. I'M sure he's in top 5 even top3. He also only lost to 3-2 serral. if maru has medical situation this is another story but with good health I think Maru the only guy who can beat Serral in TvZ. I'm not saying he's gonna beat him %100 . he's the closest one with all of terrans in the world.. And if we talk about playing game I can beat you in 1vs1 even for after long time. I mean Clem could probably beat Serral, but bracket luck prevented it I doubt Maru can beat Serral nowadays, and what 100% healthy Even mean? All players grow older | ||
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Elhierro-tarih
3 Posts
On July 26 2025 22:52 Poopi wrote: I mean Clem could probably beat Serral, but bracket luck prevented it I doubt Maru can beat Serral nowadays, and what 100% healthy Even mean? All players grow older I think Maru had a better chance of beating Serral than Clem. Maru has mentally stronger than Clem for bo7 series and have more experince and more strategy repertoire. Clem is still very similar chance ofc but I would bet for Maru if my life was on the line. | ||
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PremoBeats
440 Posts
On July 26 2025 17:50 CicadaSC wrote: the 2nd best terran doesn't use ghosts TvZ? I still would give that spot to Maru. He is more of a complete player. I was giving that spot to Maru who beat Reynor. I don't think that Solar overall is better than Reynor atm. On July 26 2025 18:17 Hider wrote: I think the bigger problem is the matchups. The versus Zerg matchups look somewhat "reasonable". However, I can't remember a bigger balance issue in mid-late game in many many years than what we have now in TvP. It feels like usually when we have balance issues it's because some race had an advantage in the early game and was able to take a lead and snowball. But this doesn't even really seem to be the case here. So Clem could possibly have beaten Serral but effectively had no chance against Classic and Classic had very little chance again Serral. Clem had no chance against Classic despite beating him, Max and herO on this very patch? | ||
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Nasigil1
114 Posts
On July 26 2025 21:05 Elhierro-tarih wrote: Players get better and better as the years go by. I don't believe there's a Protoss in the world who could beat Serral in a BO7 series. He calculates everything that could happen and immediately takes action. However, I have a different opinion on Terran vs. Zerg. I think there's a chance that Maru could beat Serral in a BO7 series. Maru is a player who doesn't tire out, especially in the late game and as the series drags on. Also, as everyone says, he uses Ghost very well on TVZ. His mech builds are quite solid. Another thing that Maru does better than Cure is that it he can stop the nydus channels built into his base and defend these kind of attacks very well. I wish we could have seen the Maru vs. Serral match. Other than that there are more than one zerg players who can beat serral in ZvZ. Even Solar can do it. Korean Zergs has plenty of tricks and tactics in ZvZ and this match up has limited. Serral can reach limits that exceed human limits in TVZ and PVZ because he has the chance to create such a combination. In ZVZ, however, because those limits are limited, other players can catch up with him. In case you haven't been paying attention, Maru's last 5 series against Serral are: 0:3, 1:3, 0:4, 0:4, 0:3. He absolutely has no chance beating Serral in a Bo7 series. He'd be lucky to take one single map. Turn the clock back 4 years, maybe he has a chance. But not now. | ||
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Nasigil1
114 Posts
On July 26 2025 22:40 Elhierro-tarih wrote: Maru beated Reynor in this tournament . I think Reynor level is quite high one of the best zers in the world. I'M sure he's in top 5 even top3. He also only lost to 3-2 serral. if maru has medical situation this is another story but with good health I think Maru the only guy who can beat Serral in TvZ. I'm not saying he's gonna beat him %100 . he's the closest one with all of terrans in the world.. And if we talk about playing game I can beat you in 1vs1 even for after long time. It's dangerous to use Reynor as a reference because he has the rare talent of always go 50-50 with whoever he's playing. I can easily raise a counter argument: Maru couldn't even beat Cure in TvT, and Cure got swept by Serral in ZvT. By this logic Maru has no chance against Serral. So what makes you think Reynor 2:3 Maru and 2:3 Serral is an indicator of Maru could hang with Serral? | ||
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Poopi
France12883 Posts
On July 26 2025 23:50 Nasigil1 wrote: It's dangerous to use Reynor as a reference because he has the rare talent of always go 50-50 with whoever he's playing. I can easily raise a counter argument: Maru couldn't even beat Cure in TvT, and Cure got swept by Serral in ZvT. By this logic Maru has no chance against Serral. So what makes you think Reynor 2:3 Maru and 2:3 Serral is an indicator of Maru could hang with Serral? Even though transitivity rarely happens in StarCraft, it can somewhat works in the same match-up (bar some stylistic differences) Why compare TvT and ZvT? | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1178 Posts
On July 26 2025 23:50 Nasigil1 wrote: It's dangerous to use Reynor as a reference because he has the rare talent of always go 50-50 with whoever he's playing. I can easily raise a counter argument: Maru couldn't even beat Cure in TvT, and Cure got swept by Serral in ZvT. By this logic Maru has no chance against Serral. So what makes you think Reynor 2:3 Maru and 2:3 Serral is an indicator of Maru could hang with Serral? It's not even the Scoreline. I remember the WTL Finals when Vitality send out Maru *again* to fight Serral and it felt like bullying. Two games and Maru basically never crossed the middle-line, he just rolled over. I know that was last year, but it really looked like Maru had just given up on trying to fight Serral So yeah, in the matchup against Serral, I would pick Clem every day over Maru. Would have done that even before EWC '24 | ||
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onPHYRE
Bulgaria923 Posts
On July 26 2025 21:05 Elhierro-tarih wrote: Players get better and better as the years go by. I don't believe there's a Protoss in the world who could beat Serral in a BO7 series. He calculates everything that could happen and immediately takes action. However, I have a different opinion on Terran vs. Zerg. I think there's a chance that Maru could beat Serral in a BO7 series. Maru is a player who doesn't tire out, especially in the late game and as the series drags on. Also, as everyone says, he uses Ghost very well on TVZ. His mech builds are quite solid. Another thing that Maru does better than Cure is that it he can stop the nydus channels built into his base and defend these kind of attacks very well. I wish we could have seen the Maru vs. Serral match. Other than that there are more than one zerg players who can beat serral in ZvZ. Even Solar can do it. Korean Zergs has plenty of tricks and tactics in ZvZ and this match up has limited. Serral can reach limits that exceed human limits in TVZ and PVZ because he has the chance to create such a combination. In ZVZ, however, because those limits are limited, other players can catch up with him. Maru would have lost 4-0 in such a brutal way, I’m not sure he makes it off the stage before announcing his retirement. Proof? Every match they have played in modern history. He is 1-17 against him in the last 4 matches. That’s not embarrassing, that’s playing two different sports. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25322 Posts
On July 26 2025 23:09 Elhierro-tarih wrote: I think Maru had a better chance of beating Serral than Clem. Maru has mentally stronger than Clem for bo7 series and have more experince and more strategy repertoire. Clem is still very similar chance ofc but I would bet for Maru if my life was on the line. There are many things I would bet my life on if it came to it, close to bottom of that list are Maru beating Serral nowadays, and Maru in a World Championship. Both of them at the same time? I may as well not even bother making the bet and just accept my death. Clem is more mortal to more opponents than Serral, but he’s the guy for the task of taking out Serral. Bo5, I think there’s a handful of players who can beat him. Bo7, very few and by Bo9 I legitimately think it’s only Clem who can do that. When you get to Bo9, you have to straight-up outplay your opponent to win. In shorter series, a few smart build choices, a bit of luck and you can be on match point and putting your opponent under huge pressure. Bo9 you can go 2-0 down, and you still need to lose another Bo5 to be dead. There’s just less variance in that format, most players simply don’t have enough tricks and pocket builds to snipe the more consistent mechanical player. Between Serral being well, Serral and his great mechanics + decision-making and mentality, and Clem’s insane mechanics when he’s on form, it’s a format Serral is going to be close to impossible to beat in for most players, and very similar for Clem in TvZ specifically. TvP Clem is struggling more than last year, but I think he’d perform better in Bo9s there too, relatively speaking | ||
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Sharp-Plant-2146
1 Post
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Poopi
France12883 Posts
On July 27 2025 00:52 Sharp-Plant-2146 wrote: Maru is better TvZ Player than Clem. Period. Who says differently no idea about starcraft. It’s a 1 post user but there is an interesting perspective to have about this imo. Maru is the complementary TvZ player of Clem -> he is probably more solid vs other KR zergs, especially Shin and Solar, while Clem weirdly struggles vs them. Otoh Clem has the best recent TvZ record vs Serral while Maru’s style doesn’t work at all nowadays vs Serral. Imo if you combine Maru and Clem you obtain a nigh invincible TvZ player | ||
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Asha
United Kingdom38255 Posts
On July 26 2025 22:33 CicadaSC wrote: terran dont need ghost to win late game (assuming they are playing bio) is news to me. Ghost might not be "great" but it is best tool for versatility. emp infestor, snipe lurker, snipe ultra, snipe brood, snipe/emp viper. playing without ghost even if they are not "great" is a massive handicap if you dont plan to kill them with a timing. Maybe i watch too much eu scene and dont know the game enough but eu i cant think of any top terran playing late game without ghost. You can try and kill with some 8 rax without ghost or drawn out "midgames" but if zerg stabilizes dont you need that? I'm just saying people like Cure aren't suddenly not using ghosts because they can't, it's because they feel they aren't great vs the best zergs whose multitasking enables such great abuse of Nydus, Lurker harass and general runbys to make it oppressively difficult to hold map points following the supply change. | ||
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