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Northern Ireland26499 Posts
On July 23 2025 02:14 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2025 00:33 WombaT wrote:On July 23 2025 00:24 Gescom wrote:
I _really_ dislike the race switching in TvT. But for 200 grand, I'd bend as well. /sigh I’d disagree there. It’s hype as fuck to see a player with a legitimately monster, tournament level off-race that we’ve never really seen before in 15 years. I totally agree with Clem’s reason for playing PvT, TvT is just incredibly volatile in the early game and a bit too coinflippy. If Clem was dodging it because he was bad in the mid and late game I’d feel a bit differently the reason he plays protoss is because of mid and late game TvT. Clem's skill-set does not give him an advantage in tank wars and mech vs mech. it's like playing a completely different RTS game compared to vZ and vP. early-game TvT is not particularly volatile or coin-flippy. yolo doom drops are manageable and are usually a sign of desperation. (early game*) raven vs raven comes down to skill, not luck. but yea, the positional tank and air control wars are probably not Clem's cup of tea
Maru was nigh on unbeatable in TvT for a long stretch in the metas that essentially guaranteed him a mid and late game. And way more vulnerable since
Clem himself has said it’s specifically the early game volatility that had him race pick to be more stable.
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Well showtime literally got clowned by cure.
Sometimes it amaze me how toss dont prepare better against cure. As he literally has not played a macro game in Tvp for the past year
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All the upper bracket matches tomorrow are just like Ro.8 quality, I think we have 7 of top 8 in Power Ranking and Solar could made top 8 in some power ranking.
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GG day1. See yas tomorrow.
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Most predictable first day of the bracket.
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United States33584 Posts
On July 23 2025 03:08 TeamMamba wrote:
Well showtime literally got clowned by cure.
Sometimes it amaze me how toss dont prepare better against cure. As he literally has not played a macro game in Tvp for the past year
I mean, I suppose it's sports fans' right to flippantly say stuff that amounts to "the loser shoulda played better," but I think people should appreciate how hard it can be to play at the highest level.
Game 1, pretty standard-ish 2-base SCV-pull. That's just execution vs execution—you don't always stop a well-executed all-in from a player who's good at them (or else no one would all-in at pro level).
Game 2, ShoWTimE was probably reading proxy Marauders, and maybe he could have thought through the potential alternatives better when nothing hit him by 3:00. But doing that in real-time is actually pretty hard—my favorite example here is always the infamous Classic vs Rogue game from BlizzCon with the Blink-DTs. If you examine the game, Rogue actually gets an almost complete scout with double-Overseer, but he just can't put all the puzzle pieces together in his head before his main gets hit.
(I do think players should be more willing to double-worker or even triple-worker scout when there's confusion around a proxy situation)
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Dang just got on lunch and I thought it'd still be going. What were the best series today? Already watched Maru vs Trigger and started Rogue vs Classic
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On July 23 2025 02:57 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2025 02:14 SHODAN wrote:On July 23 2025 00:33 WombaT wrote:On July 23 2025 00:24 Gescom wrote:
I _really_ dislike the race switching in TvT. But for 200 grand, I'd bend as well. /sigh I’d disagree there. It’s hype as fuck to see a player with a legitimately monster, tournament level off-race that we’ve never really seen before in 15 years. I totally agree with Clem’s reason for playing PvT, TvT is just incredibly volatile in the early game and a bit too coinflippy. If Clem was dodging it because he was bad in the mid and late game I’d feel a bit differently the reason he plays protoss is because of mid and late game TvT. Clem's skill-set does not give him an advantage in tank wars and mech vs mech. it's like playing a completely different RTS game compared to vZ and vP. early-game TvT is not particularly volatile or coin-flippy. yolo doom drops are manageable and are usually a sign of desperation. (early game*) raven vs raven comes down to skill, not luck. but yea, the positional tank and air control wars are probably not Clem's cup of tea Maru was nigh on unbeatable in TvT for a long stretch in the metas that essentially guaranteed him a mid and late game. And way more vulnerable since Clem himself has said it’s specifically the early game volatility that had him race pick to be more stable.
Maru's vT winrates:
LotV = 71%
patch 5.0.11-present = 71%
patch 5.0.14-present = 64%
all of his defeats on the current patch were inflicted by GuMiho (bar one 2-3 series against Byun)
the story of Maru in LotV is that he is nigh unbeatable in TvT, except for that one mirror nemesis who always shows up to ruin his day. first it was Innovation, then TY, then Cure, and now GuMiho
if you want to credit Maru as being unbeatable in a match-up, it should be TvP. his overall vP winrate is is only marginally lower than his vT in LotV - but his overall form vP is better, and he hasn't had a serious protoss nemesis in LotV except maybe Maxpax
Korean terrans are just built different in TvT. there is a greater pool of high-performance players for Korean terrans to practice mirror. in Europe there is only Clem and Gabe
it is a lot easier for Clem to prepare PvT, since the range of play is a lot smaller for terran in that match-up compared to TvT. you don't have to worry about mech or long drawn-out positional play. TvP is a lot more straight-forward than that, and the games tend not to drag on beyond 10 minutes
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On July 23 2025 04:20 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2025 02:57 WombaT wrote:On July 23 2025 02:14 SHODAN wrote:On July 23 2025 00:33 WombaT wrote:On July 23 2025 00:24 Gescom wrote:
I _really_ dislike the race switching in TvT. But for 200 grand, I'd bend as well. /sigh I’d disagree there. It’s hype as fuck to see a player with a legitimately monster, tournament level off-race that we’ve never really seen before in 15 years. I totally agree with Clem’s reason for playing PvT, TvT is just incredibly volatile in the early game and a bit too coinflippy. If Clem was dodging it because he was bad in the mid and late game I’d feel a bit differently the reason he plays protoss is because of mid and late game TvT. Clem's skill-set does not give him an advantage in tank wars and mech vs mech. it's like playing a completely different RTS game compared to vZ and vP. early-game TvT is not particularly volatile or coin-flippy. yolo doom drops are manageable and are usually a sign of desperation. (early game*) raven vs raven comes down to skill, not luck. but yea, the positional tank and air control wars are probably not Clem's cup of tea Maru was nigh on unbeatable in TvT for a long stretch in the metas that essentially guaranteed him a mid and late game. And way more vulnerable since Clem himself has said it’s specifically the early game volatility that had him race pick to be more stable. Maru's vT winrates: LotV = 71% patch 5.0.11-present = 71% patch 5.0.14-present = 64% all of his defeats on the current patch were inflicted by GuMiho (bar one 2-3 series against Byun) the story of Maru in LotV is that he is nigh unbeatable in TvT, except for that one mirror nemesis who always shows up to ruin his day. first it was Innovation, then TY, then Cure, and now GuMiho if you want to credit Maru as being unbeatable in a match-up, it should be TvP. his overall vP winrate is is only marginally lower than his vT in LotV - but his overall form vP is better, and he hasn't had a serious protoss nemesis in LotV except maybe Maxpax Korean terrans are just built different in TvT. there is a greater pool of high-performance players for Korean terrans to practice mirror. in Europe there is only Clem and Gabe it is a lot easier for Clem to prepare PvT, since the range of play is a lot smaller for terran in that match-up compared to TvT. you don't have to worry about mech or long drawn-out positional play. TvP is a lot more straight-forward than that, and the games tend not to drag on beyond 10 minutes
What's really cool about TY is that when he briefly came back to SC2 in 2024, he played several Bo3s vs Maru in TvT, and he won the only game that went super late, on Alcyone. The best TvT match of 2024.
Looking forward to Serral vs Classic and Reynor vs Maru in particular. All the matches look great though.
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Northern Ireland26499 Posts
On July 23 2025 04:20 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2025 02:57 WombaT wrote:On July 23 2025 02:14 SHODAN wrote:On July 23 2025 00:33 WombaT wrote:On July 23 2025 00:24 Gescom wrote:
I _really_ dislike the race switching in TvT. But for 200 grand, I'd bend as well. /sigh I’d disagree there. It’s hype as fuck to see a player with a legitimately monster, tournament level off-race that we’ve never really seen before in 15 years. I totally agree with Clem’s reason for playing PvT, TvT is just incredibly volatile in the early game and a bit too coinflippy. If Clem was dodging it because he was bad in the mid and late game I’d feel a bit differently the reason he plays protoss is because of mid and late game TvT. Clem's skill-set does not give him an advantage in tank wars and mech vs mech. it's like playing a completely different RTS game compared to vZ and vP. early-game TvT is not particularly volatile or coin-flippy. yolo doom drops are manageable and are usually a sign of desperation. (early game*) raven vs raven comes down to skill, not luck. but yea, the positional tank and air control wars are probably not Clem's cup of tea Maru was nigh on unbeatable in TvT for a long stretch in the metas that essentially guaranteed him a mid and late game. And way more vulnerable since Clem himself has said it’s specifically the early game volatility that had him race pick to be more stable. Maru's vT winrates: LotV = 71% patch 5.0.11-present = 71% patch 5.0.14-present = 64% all of his defeats on the current patch were inflicted by GuMiho (bar one 2-3 series against Byun) the story of Maru in LotV is that he is nigh unbeatable in TvT, except for that one mirror nemesis who always shows up to ruin his day. first it was Innovation, then TY, then Cure, and now GuMiho if you want to credit Maru as being unbeatable in a match-up, it should be TvP. his overall vP winrate is is only marginally lower than his vT in LotV - but his overall form vP is better, and he hasn't had a serious protoss nemesis in LotV except maybe Maxpax Korean terrans are just built different in TvT. there is a greater pool of high-performance players for Korean terrans to practice mirror. in Europe there is only Clem and Gabe it is a lot easier for Clem to prepare PvT, since the range of play is a lot smaller for terran in that match-up compared to TvT. you don't have to worry about mech or long drawn-out positional play. TvP is a lot more straight-forward than that, and the games tend not to drag on beyond 10 minutes
During the period Maru could basically open the same way most games, not die and almost guarantee a mid game and beyond on a good footing, his TvT numbers were ridiculous.
Nowadays you’ve such a technical early game with such a huge amount of variation, that any of the top 5/6 Terrans can beat each other if they choice upon the correct build more often than not. So many games snowball from the first mini-push
It’s 100% why Clem is playing PvT, he would rather have a stable early game with his off race than an unstable one with his main.
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Why is Dark not in the tournament? Did he retire?
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On July 23 2025 05:34 Back2Back wrote:
Why is Dark not in the tournament? Did he retire?
Started his military service in May, so yes, he is technically retired
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On July 23 2025 05:24 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2025 04:20 SHODAN wrote:On July 23 2025 02:57 WombaT wrote:On July 23 2025 02:14 SHODAN wrote:On July 23 2025 00:33 WombaT wrote:On July 23 2025 00:24 Gescom wrote:
I _really_ dislike the race switching in TvT. But for 200 grand, I'd bend as well. /sigh I’d disagree there. It’s hype as fuck to see a player with a legitimately monster, tournament level off-race that we’ve never really seen before in 15 years. I totally agree with Clem’s reason for playing PvT, TvT is just incredibly volatile in the early game and a bit too coinflippy. If Clem was dodging it because he was bad in the mid and late game I’d feel a bit differently the reason he plays protoss is because of mid and late game TvT. Clem's skill-set does not give him an advantage in tank wars and mech vs mech. it's like playing a completely different RTS game compared to vZ and vP. early-game TvT is not particularly volatile or coin-flippy. yolo doom drops are manageable and are usually a sign of desperation. (early game*) raven vs raven comes down to skill, not luck. but yea, the positional tank and air control wars are probably not Clem's cup of tea Maru was nigh on unbeatable in TvT for a long stretch in the metas that essentially guaranteed him a mid and late game. And way more vulnerable since Clem himself has said it’s specifically the early game volatility that had him race pick to be more stable. Maru's vT winrates: LotV = 71% patch 5.0.11-present = 71% patch 5.0.14-present = 64% all of his defeats on the current patch were inflicted by GuMiho (bar one 2-3 series against Byun) the story of Maru in LotV is that he is nigh unbeatable in TvT, except for that one mirror nemesis who always shows up to ruin his day. first it was Innovation, then TY, then Cure, and now GuMiho if you want to credit Maru as being unbeatable in a match-up, it should be TvP. his overall vP winrate is is only marginally lower than his vT in LotV - but his overall form vP is better, and he hasn't had a serious protoss nemesis in LotV except maybe Maxpax Korean terrans are just built different in TvT. there is a greater pool of high-performance players for Korean terrans to practice mirror. in Europe there is only Clem and Gabe it is a lot easier for Clem to prepare PvT, since the range of play is a lot smaller for terran in that match-up compared to TvT. you don't have to worry about mech or long drawn-out positional play. TvP is a lot more straight-forward than that, and the games tend not to drag on beyond 10 minutes During the period Maru could basically open the same way most games, not die and almost guarantee a mid game and beyond on a good footing, his TvT numbers were ridiculous. Nowadays you’ve such a technical early game with such a huge amount of variation, that any of the top 5/6 Terrans can beat each other if they choice upon the correct build more often than not. So many games snowball from the first mini-push It’s 100% why Clem is playing PvT, he would rather have a stable early game with his off race than an unstable one with his main.
well, I did some digging (through my replay folder, mostly) and put together some stats for you.
during patch 5.0.14, Maru's average gg timing in TvT is 18 minutes and 10 seconds
this average includes all losses suffered in GSL qualifiers, Code S, Master's Coliseum and HomeStory Cup XXVI
so in actual fact, Maru loses TvT in the lategame, not because of early-game volatility like you say
some more stats:
out of a sample size of 10 losses, Maru's quickest loss was 6 minutes 20 seconds against GuMiho. his longest loss was 37 minutes 2 seconds against Cure.
I didn't count Maru's losses when he off-raced as protoss, as he did vs GuMiho in Code S S1 '25. those were quick games iirc
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On July 23 2025 03:39 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2025 03:08 TeamMamba wrote:
Well showtime literally got clowned by cure.
Sometimes it amaze me how toss dont prepare better against cure. As he literally has not played a macro game in Tvp for the past year Game 1, pretty standard-ish 2-base SCV-pull. That's just execution vs execution—you don't always stop a well-executed all-in from a player who's good at them (or else no one would all-in at pro level).
Disagree. You should always be able to hold an all in. It's not just execution vs execution, it's a gamble. And build order counters. That's pro level.
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On July 23 2025 06:29 CicadaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2025 03:39 Waxangel wrote:On July 23 2025 03:08 TeamMamba wrote:
Well showtime literally got clowned by cure.
Sometimes it amaze me how toss dont prepare better against cure. As he literally has not played a macro game in Tvp for the past year Game 1, pretty standard-ish 2-base SCV-pull. That's just execution vs execution—you don't always stop a well-executed all-in from a player who's good at them (or else no one would all-in at pro level). Disagree. You should always be able to hold an all in. It's not just execution vs execution, it's a gamble. And build order counters. That's pro level.
Either way, I think ShowTime in particular can practically assume at this point that on a large stage every single Korean Terran will play mainly 2-base or 1-base all-ins against him. In Dallas, Maru rolled over him playing three 2-base all-ins in a row and ShowTime somehow stuck to the same ineffective charge response. That Cure would take a similiar approach was totally unsurprising.
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France12911 Posts
On the other hand even if he knows it’s coming he is not as strong as MaxPax/herO/Classic/Zoun at holding those builds I guess?
I mean Even though Cure is struggling in TvP he is still a class above ShoWTimE
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On July 23 2025 07:17 Poopi wrote:
On the other hand even if he knows it’s coming he is not as strong as MaxPax/herO/Classic/Zoun at holding those builds I guess?
I mean Even though Cure is struggling in TvP he is still a class above ShoWTimE
I mean cure Just lost His Last 3 matches against Showtime idk If you can say He is a class above, He Just was very Well prepped Here.
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France12911 Posts
On July 23 2025 07:28 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2025 07:17 Poopi wrote:
On the other hand even if he knows it’s coming he is not as strong as MaxPax/herO/Classic/Zoun at holding those builds I guess?
I mean Even though Cure is struggling in TvP he is still a class above ShoWTimE
I mean cure Just lost His Last 3 matches against Showtime idk If you can say He is a class above, He Just was very Well prepped Here.
Before 2025 Cure won like 15 series versus ShoWTimE and lost only 2.
His vP was nerfed by the patch but class is forever as we say
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On July 23 2025 07:28 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2025 07:17 Poopi wrote:
On the other hand even if he knows it’s coming he is not as strong as MaxPax/herO/Classic/Zoun at holding those builds I guess?
I mean Even though Cure is struggling in TvP he is still a class above ShoWTimE
I mean cure Just lost His Last 3 matches against Showtime idk If you can say He is a class above, He Just was very Well prepped Here.
Cure is definitely the favourite against showtime.
In big tournaments showtimes has NEVER upset anyone especially Koreans. Showtime beats who he supposed to beat and always lose to anyone who is the favourite. Even if the matchup is 50-50, showtime usually or always loses. I can’t name one tournament where there was an exception to this showtime rule
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Showtime got the right setup for game 1, he spot the army move out, delay them enough with Stalkers, got Charge done but never got enough Zealot count, wasnt sure if he just missed the warp-in or not having enough Gateway. Game 2 just a matter of failing to scout what Cure was doing.
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EPT
