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United States33592 Posts
On January 17 2025 00:17 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2025 00:07 Waxangel wrote:On January 17 2025 00:07 Glorfindelio wrote:On January 16 2025 23:29 Waxangel wrote:On January 16 2025 23:24 Charoisaur wrote:
Couldn't a stalker remax have won it for Max? Serral was broke and had 6 broodlords, out of energy Infesors and large part of his army supply in Corruptors Perhaps, but it's really hard to assess the info and make correct decisions in unusual situations. Anyway, sick win from Serral once he actually got his composition together. His recent struggles have really been about letting Protoss get into the mid-late/game with too strong an economy/infrastructure; he's still the best late-game army control guy if he gets the resources to play a 'normal' late-game. I think he's going to struggle pretty hard, relatively speaking, in this state of ZvP--his natural inclination is to play safe and drag things into the late game. And the late-game Toss army is just better in almost every regard now. So it's not a stable way to consistently win series. I honestly don't even think Max loses that game 8 times out of 10 if they replayed it. On January 16 2025 23:46 darklycid wrote:
Yea i think the tempest supply buff was a mistake. Idk what you wanna do to make PvZ lategame not dumb for one side (or super unfun in terms of armies). I don't think Tempests or the deathball are making or breaking these recent Serral losses. It's that MaxPax/herO were credibly pressuring Serral while building a great economic base, and then putting together his high tech army faster. The deatball has ALWAYS been strong—even when Protoss was weak—but Protoss just struggled to get there without dying or before Zerg had a 15000/5000 bank. If you look at BBBB or the game Serral won today, he's still fine in 'normal' late game when he has the money to get the usual bullshit mix that's been winning since 2012. Eh lambo and harstem were of the opinion that Maxpax didnt play the lategame super well and left too early. A big issue i see is that zerg needs to go lurkers to reliably deal with the stalker immortal storm archon mix but protoss can hit tempest when zerg just hits lurkers and can just outtrade lurker corruptor too easily. There are just some issues with how the mu plays out at the moment even tho i am a big fan of the midgame and early lategame being more dynamic.
Don't think that's a disagreement? It's all the stuff before the high-tech units come out that are helping Protoss beat Serral these last few days.
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On January 17 2025 00:30 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2025 00:17 darklycid wrote:On January 17 2025 00:07 Waxangel wrote:On January 17 2025 00:07 Glorfindelio wrote:On January 16 2025 23:29 Waxangel wrote:On January 16 2025 23:24 Charoisaur wrote:
Couldn't a stalker remax have won it for Max? Serral was broke and had 6 broodlords, out of energy Infesors and large part of his army supply in Corruptors Perhaps, but it's really hard to assess the info and make correct decisions in unusual situations. Anyway, sick win from Serral once he actually got his composition together. His recent struggles have really been about letting Protoss get into the mid-late/game with too strong an economy/infrastructure; he's still the best late-game army control guy if he gets the resources to play a 'normal' late-game. I think he's going to struggle pretty hard, relatively speaking, in this state of ZvP--his natural inclination is to play safe and drag things into the late game. And the late-game Toss army is just better in almost every regard now. So it's not a stable way to consistently win series. I honestly don't even think Max loses that game 8 times out of 10 if they replayed it. On January 16 2025 23:46 darklycid wrote:
Yea i think the tempest supply buff was a mistake. Idk what you wanna do to make PvZ lategame not dumb for one side (or super unfun in terms of armies). I don't think Tempests or the deathball are making or breaking these recent Serral losses. It's that MaxPax/herO were credibly pressuring Serral while building a great economic base, and then putting together his high tech army faster. The deatball has ALWAYS been strong—even when Protoss was weak—but Protoss just struggled to get there without dying or before Zerg had a 15000/5000 bank. If you look at BBBB or the game Serral won today, he's still fine in 'normal' late game when he has the money to get the usual bullshit mix that's been winning since 2012. Eh lambo and harstem were of the opinion that Maxpax didnt play the lategame super well and left too early. A big issue i see is that zerg needs to go lurkers to reliably deal with the stalker immortal storm archon mix but protoss can hit tempest when zerg just hits lurkers and can just outtrade lurker corruptor too easily. There are just some issues with how the mu plays out at the moment even tho i am a big fan of the midgame and early lategame being more dynamic. Don't think that's a disagreement? It's all the stuff before the high-tech units come out that are helping Protoss beat Serral these last few days.
I dont know if you can say that zerg can just win with infestor bl when in the game today maxpax probably left too early.
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United States33592 Posts
On January 17 2025 00:32 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2025 00:30 Waxangel wrote:On January 17 2025 00:17 darklycid wrote:On January 17 2025 00:07 Waxangel wrote:On January 17 2025 00:07 Glorfindelio wrote:On January 16 2025 23:29 Waxangel wrote:On January 16 2025 23:24 Charoisaur wrote:
Couldn't a stalker remax have won it for Max? Serral was broke and had 6 broodlords, out of energy Infesors and large part of his army supply in Corruptors Perhaps, but it's really hard to assess the info and make correct decisions in unusual situations. Anyway, sick win from Serral once he actually got his composition together. His recent struggles have really been about letting Protoss get into the mid-late/game with too strong an economy/infrastructure; he's still the best late-game army control guy if he gets the resources to play a 'normal' late-game. I think he's going to struggle pretty hard, relatively speaking, in this state of ZvP--his natural inclination is to play safe and drag things into the late game. And the late-game Toss army is just better in almost every regard now. So it's not a stable way to consistently win series. I honestly don't even think Max loses that game 8 times out of 10 if they replayed it. On January 16 2025 23:46 darklycid wrote:
Yea i think the tempest supply buff was a mistake. Idk what you wanna do to make PvZ lategame not dumb for one side (or super unfun in terms of armies). I don't think Tempests or the deathball are making or breaking these recent Serral losses. It's that MaxPax/herO were credibly pressuring Serral while building a great economic base, and then putting together his high tech army faster. The deatball has ALWAYS been strong—even when Protoss was weak—but Protoss just struggled to get there without dying or before Zerg had a 15000/5000 bank. If you look at BBBB or the game Serral won today, he's still fine in 'normal' late game when he has the money to get the usual bullshit mix that's been winning since 2012. Eh lambo and harstem were of the opinion that Maxpax didnt play the lategame super well and left too early. A big issue i see is that zerg needs to go lurkers to reliably deal with the stalker immortal storm archon mix but protoss can hit tempest when zerg just hits lurkers and can just outtrade lurker corruptor too easily. There are just some issues with how the mu plays out at the moment even tho i am a big fan of the midgame and early lategame being more dynamic. Don't think that's a disagreement? It's all the stuff before the high-tech units come out that are helping Protoss beat Serral these last few days. I dont know if you can say that zerg can just win with infestor bl when in the game today maxpax probably left too early.
I'm not saying it's an auto-win for everyone (ppl have been complaining about Protoss deathball forever at lower levels), but I don't see anything especially problematic about the full late-game armies scenario for SERRAL between today's game and his Abyssal Reef win against MaxPax in BBBB.
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United States33592 Posts
On January 17 2025 00:20 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2025 00:07 Waxangel wrote:On January 17 2025 00:07 Glorfindelio wrote:On January 16 2025 23:29 Waxangel wrote:On January 16 2025 23:24 Charoisaur wrote:
Couldn't a stalker remax have won it for Max? Serral was broke and had 6 broodlords, out of energy Infesors and large part of his army supply in Corruptors Perhaps, but it's really hard to assess the info and make correct decisions in unusual situations. Anyway, sick win from Serral once he actually got his composition together. His recent struggles have really been about letting Protoss get into the mid-late/game with too strong an economy/infrastructure; he's still the best late-game army control guy if he gets the resources to play a 'normal' late-game. I think he's going to struggle pretty hard, relatively speaking, in this state of ZvP--his natural inclination is to play safe and drag things into the late game. And the late-game Toss army is just better in almost every regard now. So it's not a stable way to consistently win series. I honestly don't even think Max loses that game 8 times out of 10 if they replayed it. On January 16 2025 23:46 darklycid wrote:
Yea i think the tempest supply buff was a mistake. Idk what you wanna do to make PvZ lategame not dumb for one side (or super unfun in terms of armies). I don't think Tempests or the deathball are making or breaking these recent Serral losses. It's that MaxPax/herO were credibly pressuring Serral while building a great economic base, and then putting together his high tech army faster. The deatball has ALWAYS been strong—even when Protoss was weak—but Protoss just struggled to get there without dying or before Zerg had a 15000/5000 bank. If you look at BBBB or the game Serral won today, he's still fine in 'normal' late game when he has the money to get the usual bullshit mix that's been winning since 2012. Pre-patch Serral didn't lose lategames ever, even if he was in an unfavorable position so the patch definitely has an impact imo.
I really can't agree with this view. Protoss players have definitely given Serral a hard time if allowed to go late with a strong economy. See: 2022 Zoun or ShoWTimE, players you expected to get totally destroyed by him. Yeah, the bullshit, pulled-out-of-the-ass wins like the one against ShoWTimE stick in our memory, but I wouldn't say that's the norm.
You guys should really just watch the BBBB match vs MaxPax on Abyssal Reef, which is the same old ultra-late win from Serral when he gets all the casters and tech units he needs. The problem in his recent losses really is being stuck on Hydra-Lurker with no casters when a rich Protoss is getting a early-deathball wtih Archon-Templar-Disruptor.
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On January 17 2025 00:43 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2025 00:39 Waxangel wrote:On January 17 2025 00:32 darklycid wrote:On January 17 2025 00:30 Waxangel wrote:On January 17 2025 00:17 darklycid wrote:On January 17 2025 00:07 Waxangel wrote:On January 17 2025 00:07 Glorfindelio wrote:On January 16 2025 23:29 Waxangel wrote:On January 16 2025 23:24 Charoisaur wrote:
Couldn't a stalker remax have won it for Max? Serral was broke and had 6 broodlords, out of energy Infesors and large part of his army supply in Corruptors Perhaps, but it's really hard to assess the info and make correct decisions in unusual situations. Anyway, sick win from Serral once he actually got his composition together. His recent struggles have really been about letting Protoss get into the mid-late/game with too strong an economy/infrastructure; he's still the best late-game army control guy if he gets the resources to play a 'normal' late-game. I think he's going to struggle pretty hard, relatively speaking, in this state of ZvP--his natural inclination is to play safe and drag things into the late game. And the late-game Toss army is just better in almost every regard now. So it's not a stable way to consistently win series. I honestly don't even think Max loses that game 8 times out of 10 if they replayed it. On January 16 2025 23:46 darklycid wrote:
Yea i think the tempest supply buff was a mistake. Idk what you wanna do to make PvZ lategame not dumb for one side (or super unfun in terms of armies). I don't think Tempests or the deathball are making or breaking these recent Serral losses. It's that MaxPax/herO were credibly pressuring Serral while building a great economic base, and then putting together his high tech army faster. The deatball has ALWAYS been strong—even when Protoss was weak—but Protoss just struggled to get there without dying or before Zerg had a 15000/5000 bank. If you look at BBBB or the game Serral won today, he's still fine in 'normal' late game when he has the money to get the usual bullshit mix that's been winning since 2012. Eh lambo and harstem were of the opinion that Maxpax didnt play the lategame super well and left too early. A big issue i see is that zerg needs to go lurkers to reliably deal with the stalker immortal storm archon mix but protoss can hit tempest when zerg just hits lurkers and can just outtrade lurker corruptor too easily. There are just some issues with how the mu plays out at the moment even tho i am a big fan of the midgame and early lategame being more dynamic. Don't think that's a disagreement? It's all the stuff before the high-tech units come out that are helping Protoss beat Serral these last few days. I dont know if you can say that zerg can just win with infestor bl when in the game today maxpax probably left too early. I'm not saying it's an auto-win for everyone (ppl have been complaining about Protoss deathball forever at lower levels), but I don't see anything especially problematic about the full late-game armies scenario for SERRAL between today's game and his Abyssal Reef win against MaxPax in BBBB. Show nested quote +On January 17 2025 00:20 Charoisaur wrote:On January 17 2025 00:07 Waxangel wrote:On January 17 2025 00:07 Glorfindelio wrote:On January 16 2025 23:29 Waxangel wrote:On January 16 2025 23:24 Charoisaur wrote:
Couldn't a stalker remax have won it for Max? Serral was broke and had 6 broodlords, out of energy Infesors and large part of his army supply in Corruptors Perhaps, but it's really hard to assess the info and make correct decisions in unusual situations. Anyway, sick win from Serral once he actually got his composition together. His recent struggles have really been about letting Protoss get into the mid-late/game with too strong an economy/infrastructure; he's still the best late-game army control guy if he gets the resources to play a 'normal' late-game. I think he's going to struggle pretty hard, relatively speaking, in this state of ZvP--his natural inclination is to play safe and drag things into the late game. And the late-game Toss army is just better in almost every regard now. So it's not a stable way to consistently win series. I honestly don't even think Max loses that game 8 times out of 10 if they replayed it. On January 16 2025 23:46 darklycid wrote:
Yea i think the tempest supply buff was a mistake. Idk what you wanna do to make PvZ lategame not dumb for one side (or super unfun in terms of armies). I don't think Tempests or the deathball are making or breaking these recent Serral losses. It's that MaxPax/herO were credibly pressuring Serral while building a great economic base, and then putting together his high tech army faster. The deatball has ALWAYS been strong—even when Protoss was weak—but Protoss just struggled to get there without dying or before Zerg had a 15000/5000 bank. If you look at BBBB or the game Serral won today, he's still fine in 'normal' late game when he has the money to get the usual bullshit mix that's been winning since 2012. Pre-patch Serral didn't lose lategames ever, even if he was in an unfavorable position so the patch definitely has an impact imo. I really can't agree with this view. Protoss players have definitely given Serral a hard time if allowed to go late with a strong economy. See: 2022 Zoun or ShoWTimE, players you expected to get totally destroyed by him. Yeah, the bullshit, pulled-out-of-the-ass wins like the one against ShoWTimE stick in our memory, but I wouldn't say that's the norm.
Obv cant rly talk about the super lategame right now as i feel like it almost never goes there but there is def an issue right now in how protoss can just win with tempest immortal storm (and it looks very desperate for zerg). Now in general i am for letting zergs figure stuff out because thats how they work but it def doesn't look good and i am not enjoying these games too much.
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On January 17 2025 00:07 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2025 00:07 Glorfindelio wrote:On January 16 2025 23:29 Waxangel wrote:On January 16 2025 23:24 Charoisaur wrote:
Couldn't a stalker remax have won it for Max? Serral was broke and had 6 broodlords, out of energy Infesors and large part of his army supply in Corruptors Perhaps, but it's really hard to assess the info and make correct decisions in unusual situations. Anyway, sick win from Serral once he actually got his composition together. His recent struggles have really been about letting Protoss get into the mid-late/game with too strong an economy/infrastructure; he's still the best late-game army control guy if he gets the resources to play a 'normal' late-game. I think he's going to struggle pretty hard, relatively speaking, in this state of ZvP--his natural inclination is to play safe and drag things into the late game. And the late-game Toss army is just better in almost every regard now. So it's not a stable way to consistently win series. I honestly don't even think Max loses that game 8 times out of 10 if they replayed it. Show nested quote +On January 16 2025 23:46 darklycid wrote:
Yea i think the tempest supply buff was a mistake. Idk what you wanna do to make PvZ lategame not dumb for one side (or super unfun in terms of armies). I don't think Tempests or the deathball are making or breaking these recent Serral losses. It's that MaxPax/herO were credibly pressuring Serral while building a great economic base, and then putting together his high tech army faster. The deatball has ALWAYS been strong—even when Protoss was weak—but Protoss just struggled to get there without dying or before Zerg had a 15000/5000 bank. If you look at BBBB or the game Serral won today, he's still fine in 'normal' late game when he has the money to get the usual bullshit mix that's been winning since 2012.
I think it's the inability to efficiently make trades with Toss after a certain point that makes that pressure so much harder to deal with. Because that bank doesn't really accrue like it used to before. Even transitioning out of the mid-game can be incredibly tricky, because of the amount of Corruptors (like a dozen +) you need to deal with a few tempests + Mothership that can't be abducted), and how poorly Lurkers do when they're not supported or have to move into an engagement. It also makes army splitting a lot trickier and costlier to make those trades sometimes.
Even last patch, it wasn't like Toss was in a bad spot against Zerg. Pretty sure the only person who was winning consistently was Serral, and even then his series against HerO at EWC were close (well, the second one). Throw in energy overcharge, Tempest supply and a Mothership that can't be abducted versus what, Hydra dash? Blinding Cloud (lol)?
Which ultimately, whatever. Protoss should have their time in the sun. But I also don't think the best ZvPer ever just suddenly forgot how to play the MU.
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On January 17 2025 00:53 Glorfindelio wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2025 00:07 Waxangel wrote:On January 17 2025 00:07 Glorfindelio wrote:On January 16 2025 23:29 Waxangel wrote:On January 16 2025 23:24 Charoisaur wrote:
Couldn't a stalker remax have won it for Max? Serral was broke and had 6 broodlords, out of energy Infesors and large part of his army supply in Corruptors Perhaps, but it's really hard to assess the info and make correct decisions in unusual situations. Anyway, sick win from Serral once he actually got his composition together. His recent struggles have really been about letting Protoss get into the mid-late/game with too strong an economy/infrastructure; he's still the best late-game army control guy if he gets the resources to play a 'normal' late-game. I think he's going to struggle pretty hard, relatively speaking, in this state of ZvP--his natural inclination is to play safe and drag things into the late game. And the late-game Toss army is just better in almost every regard now. So it's not a stable way to consistently win series. I honestly don't even think Max loses that game 8 times out of 10 if they replayed it. On January 16 2025 23:46 darklycid wrote:
Yea i think the tempest supply buff was a mistake. Idk what you wanna do to make PvZ lategame not dumb for one side (or super unfun in terms of armies). I don't think Tempests or the deathball are making or breaking these recent Serral losses. It's that MaxPax/herO were credibly pressuring Serral while building a great economic base, and then putting together his high tech army faster. The deatball has ALWAYS been strong—even when Protoss was weak—but Protoss just struggled to get there without dying or before Zerg had a 15000/5000 bank. If you look at BBBB or the game Serral won today, he's still fine in 'normal' late game when he has the money to get the usual bullshit mix that's been winning since 2012. I think it's the inability to efficiently make trades with Toss after a certain point that makes that pressure so much harder to deal with. Because that bank doesn't really accrue like it used to before. Even transitioning out of the mid-game can be incredibly tricky, because of the amount of Corruptors (like a dozen +) you need to deal with a few tempests + Mothership that can't be abducted), and how poorly Lurkers do when they're not supported or have to move into an engagement. It also makes army splitting a lot trickier and costlier to make those trades sometimes. Even last patch, it wasn't like Toss was in a bad spot against Zerg. Pretty sure the only person who was winning consistently was Serral, and even then his series against HerO at EWC were close (well, the second one). Throw in energy overcharge, Tempest supply and a Mothership that can't be abducted versus what, Hydra dash? Blinding Cloud (lol)? Which ultimately, whatever. Protoss should have their time in the sun. But I also don't think the best ZvPer ever just suddenly forgot how to play the MU.
While i think you are right about the part where toss wasn't in a bad spot last patch it def still felt like there was some inevitability in going lategame against a good latgegame zerg (which is why i think serral usually won those).
Currently it feels like the lategame is protoss favored so he cannot just play his defense into win style. I think it was kinda problematic but rn protoss feels like they have the edge in every stage or are at worst even outside maybe some all ins.
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While I agree that protoss is the best race right now (and I predicted it from the moment of the patch, which I won't mention more than once a post don't worry), I also don't mind if Serral has to play a little differently. It always feels kind of stupid to me that someone gets to play all of his important games in a very similar way with a very similar game plan and basically never lose.
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Yeah for once Zerg does not have the edge in ZvP lategame and Serral has to adapt.
Problem is that I don't really see Zerg having enough opportunities to kill them in midgame.
But truth be told, Protoss has suffered from poor balance for so long, just let them be strong for once
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On January 17 2025 02:32 Charoisaur wrote:
Yeah for once Zerg does not have the edge in ZvP lategame and Serral has to adapt.
Problem is that I don't really see Zerg having enough opportunities to kill them in midgame.
But truth be told, Protoss has suffered from poor balance for so long, just let them be strong for once
Oh yea cant say that im Not Feeling some Schadenfreude as a toss myself. (Tho idk if toss is the best Race rn when the best terrans this Tournament either locked Like they didnt Care at all or stumbled because of playing protoss  )
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On January 17 2025 02:32 Charoisaur wrote:
Yeah for once Zerg does not have the edge in ZvP lategame and Serral has to adapt.
Problem is that I don't really see Zerg having enough opportunities to kill them in midgame.
But truth be told, Protoss has suffered from poor balance for so long, just let them be strong for once
Yeah honestly, I'm more than fine with Serral and other Zergs having to adapt and figuring out a way to compound an edge from the mid-game or aggressively punishing certain openings in some way. Obviously it can't be done on certain maps, but Serral's muta game against Maxpax is an excellent example of this. It's not impossible to win--the margins are just thinner and will require a different approach.
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Northern Ireland26614 Posts
On January 17 2025 01:27 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2025 00:53 Glorfindelio wrote:On January 17 2025 00:07 Waxangel wrote:On January 17 2025 00:07 Glorfindelio wrote:On January 16 2025 23:29 Waxangel wrote:On January 16 2025 23:24 Charoisaur wrote:
Couldn't a stalker remax have won it for Max? Serral was broke and had 6 broodlords, out of energy Infesors and large part of his army supply in Corruptors Perhaps, but it's really hard to assess the info and make correct decisions in unusual situations. Anyway, sick win from Serral once he actually got his composition together. His recent struggles have really been about letting Protoss get into the mid-late/game with too strong an economy/infrastructure; he's still the best late-game army control guy if he gets the resources to play a 'normal' late-game. I think he's going to struggle pretty hard, relatively speaking, in this state of ZvP--his natural inclination is to play safe and drag things into the late game. And the late-game Toss army is just better in almost every regard now. So it's not a stable way to consistently win series. I honestly don't even think Max loses that game 8 times out of 10 if they replayed it. On January 16 2025 23:46 darklycid wrote:
Yea i think the tempest supply buff was a mistake. Idk what you wanna do to make PvZ lategame not dumb for one side (or super unfun in terms of armies). I don't think Tempests or the deathball are making or breaking these recent Serral losses. It's that MaxPax/herO were credibly pressuring Serral while building a great economic base, and then putting together his high tech army faster. The deatball has ALWAYS been strong—even when Protoss was weak—but Protoss just struggled to get there without dying or before Zerg had a 15000/5000 bank. If you look at BBBB or the game Serral won today, he's still fine in 'normal' late game when he has the money to get the usual bullshit mix that's been winning since 2012. I think it's the inability to efficiently make trades with Toss after a certain point that makes that pressure so much harder to deal with. Because that bank doesn't really accrue like it used to before. Even transitioning out of the mid-game can be incredibly tricky, because of the amount of Corruptors (like a dozen +) you need to deal with a few tempests + Mothership that can't be abducted), and how poorly Lurkers do when they're not supported or have to move into an engagement. It also makes army splitting a lot trickier and costlier to make those trades sometimes. Even last patch, it wasn't like Toss was in a bad spot against Zerg. Pretty sure the only person who was winning consistently was Serral, and even then his series against HerO at EWC were close (well, the second one). Throw in energy overcharge, Tempest supply and a Mothership that can't be abducted versus what, Hydra dash? Blinding Cloud (lol)? Which ultimately, whatever. Protoss should have their time in the sun. But I also don't think the best ZvPer ever just suddenly forgot how to play the MU. While i think you are right about the part where toss wasn't in a bad spot last patch it def still felt like there was some inevitability in going lategame against a good latgegame zerg (which is why i think serral usually won those). Currently it feels like the lategame is protoss favored so he cannot just play his defense into win style. I think it was kinda problematic but rn protoss feels like they have the edge in every stage or are at worst even outside maybe some all ins.
It feels every time PvZ is in quite a decent spot the pendulum swings back in either direction pretty quickly.
That was a tight series, I think Serral was one bad stasis from swinging one game, MaxPax could have flipped a loss too.
We’ll see what people figure out, I was waiting for Serral to play a few more against top Z to see how his ZvP looked and even he’s struggling.
It seems very difficult indeed these days, Toss seem very potent in basically all phases of the game is my current basic read.
1. Oracles having more energy has two big knock-on effects. In direct harassment they don’t seem to be doing much more, but they reliably have energy to bolster defences. Crucially they are sticking down more stasis in the sharking with Stalkers phase. When herO debuted his style it was wrecking face for a bit, before returning to semi normality, Z players would flank them with upgraded lings and things like that were adjustments made.
Nowadays it feels a very tricky move to pull off, or at least a very risky one. Eat a stasis, of which there tend to be more and what could be a winning engagement can turn into a disaster.
It feels that Toss mid game pressure has a little more sustain in containing Zerg now, and outside of certain committed all-ins they’re reasonably defensively secure then too.
2. Due to 1 feels Toss transitions that bit faster now, on top of Zerg transitioning that bit slower. Both in terms of eco setup as well as compositionally. That period where Zerg can wrest back control of the ground to some degree with Lurkers before Tempest kick in is pretty razor thin.
If Zerg had either a monster economy that they could switch to their doom army a bit quicker, or have the lurker phase where they’re effective a little longer and they could trade armies, then it’s doable.
Hey I’m all for waiting for things to settle and people to figure stuff out, it does feel rather rough.
If my memory is correct Serral didn’t lose a ZvP series the entirety of the last (extended) ESL circuit, and he’s lost 3 in a week now?
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On January 17 2025 04:14 WombaT wrote:
It feels every time PvZ is in quite a decent spot the pendulum swings back in either direction pretty quickly.
....
If my memory is correct Serral didn’t lose a ZvP series the entirety of the last (extended) ESL circuit, and he’s lost 3 in a week now?
The last 2-3 years how much ZvP late game, players did we have?
1-3 Serral, Dark, Reynor?
The rest of the zerg players avoid late game because it's one-sided. and casual zerg players even longer.
But maybe that's what we're aiming for: Zerg should not be a late game race. But then the early to mid game should be stronger.
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Bit early to say, but PvZ seems a tiny bit Protoss favored right now. I still don't think Protoss should be changed much yet - there's precedent of Protoss getting nerfed to the ground whenever it shows any sign of life. We need to see a few more matches between top P and Z anyways.
Lots of maps right now seem to be quite tempest friendly - if something had to change, I'd rather that change first instead of P nerfs.
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On January 17 2025 05:14 jack_less wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2025 04:14 WombaT wrote:
It feels every time PvZ is in quite a decent spot the pendulum swings back in either direction pretty quickly.
....
If my memory is correct Serral didn’t lose a ZvP series the entirety of the last (extended) ESL circuit, and he’s lost 3 in a week now? The last 2-3 years how much ZvP late game, players did we have? 1-3 Serral, Dark, Reynor? The rest of the zerg players avoid late game because it's one-sided. and casual zerg players even longer. But maybe that's what we're aiming for: Zerg should not be a late game race. But then the early to mid game should be stronger.
I mean it was an issue when zerg could go from less cost effective but mass expand in the midgame to be more cost effective in the lategame, even when later on the midagme wasnt as bad anymore for toss someone like serral was still able to enter lategames usually in a good position to still pull it off.
The issue seems to be that right now zerg is not really more cost effective in the lategame and not able to enter it in a really good spot usually.
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Northern Ireland26614 Posts
On January 17 2025 05:14 jack_less wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2025 04:14 WombaT wrote:
It feels every time PvZ is in quite a decent spot the pendulum swings back in either direction pretty quickly.
....
If my memory is correct Serral didn’t lose a ZvP series the entirety of the last (extended) ESL circuit, and he’s lost 3 in a week now? The last 2-3 years how much ZvP late game, players did we have? 1-3 Serral, Dark, Reynor? The rest of the zerg players avoid late game because it's one-sided. and casual zerg players even longer. But maybe that's what we're aiming for: Zerg should not be a late game race. But then the early to mid game should be stronger.
I think it somewhat sails under the radar quite how long Serral managed to be so brutally good in late game while others gradually faltered over time.
That observation aside, it’d be cool if Zerg was more ‘swarmy’, but hey we’ve had periods where it’s late game they’ve shined in, or attritional warfare.
At present it doesn’t really feel at the top level that they have any real phase where they shine, outside of maybe the fabled ‘super late game’, which is super hard to get to in good shape.
Early, they don’t really take a ton of damage, nor have a huge amount of aggressive potential either. Midgame there is some, but most games seem to end with a result that Toss at least contain them exploding in eco and creep. They’re having to produce units to stop the stalker snowball that can happen as well, so it just slows that growth down a bit. Lategame comes relatively slower versus Toss’ now so you’re kinda entering that phase in a position you can’t do as much damage as before, or alternatively you lack the eco to trade really inefficiently which you can sometimes do if you get away with a greedy midgame.
It just seems quite rough all-round, and frankly I’d imagine it’s pretty horrible to play at lower levels.
On the flip side I mean herO’s strategic innovations could conceivably have come way earlier back in the day, they weren’t purely the result of patching shaking things up or anything.
So perhaps Serral or some other Zerg can figure some solutions that mere mortals like myself can’t see. Interested to see what happens!
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So Zerg having trouble dealing with Terran lategame, then they nerf Terran lategame to the ground (justifiably so) and now Zerg having trouble with Protoss lategame? We all know what to do here, right? Sacasm aside, I never thought Protoss was in a bad position against Zerg to begin with, and this current change in balance/map really tip the favor too much into the Protoss side.
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France12911 Posts
Poor protoss having the strongest race when there are no high stakes tournaments going on
Still curious to see if Serral will find a way, he basically never had to
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On January 17 2025 23:15 Poopi wrote:
Poor protoss having the strongest race when there are no high stakes tournaments going on
Still curious to see if Serral will find a way, he basically never had to
If pvt is now toss favored in your opinion its Probably balanced
(Idk If it is, looks kinda balanced so far imo).
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How was the games against Astrea? Did serral change something up from yesterday against Maxpax?
Serral vs reynor here aswell
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EPT
