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FataLe
New Zealand4492 Posts
On January 09 2025 21:42 Harris1st wrote: Clem out? Serral wins. Calling it now! Though not really a risky call While I agree it wouldn't be "risky" to make that call, MaxPax did 3-1 Serral yesterday. Food for thought. | ||
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dysenterymd
1178 Posts
On January 12 2025 09:17 FataLe wrote: While I agree it wouldn't be "risky" to make that call, MaxPax did 3-1 Serral yesterday. Food for thought. Serral's ZvP does look surprisingly shaky, and it's not just the fact that he lost to MaxPax and herO back to back (though they were his first two ZvP losses since Gamers8 2023.) Serral's lost so many late games recently - to Mana, to Astrea, etc, and these were after perfectly acceptable mid games (in past metas Serral usually won late games even after bad midgames.) For wahtever reason late game isn't clicking for Serral on these maps/patch. That being said, I do still expect Serral to beat Maxpax next time they play, because it's Serral and doubting his ZvP is a mistake. Wouldn't be too shocked if he loses though. | ||
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Glorfindelio
193 Posts
On January 12 2025 11:34 dysenterymd wrote: Serral's ZvP does look surprisingly shaky, and it's not just the fact that he lost to MaxPax and herO back to back (though they were his first two ZvP losses since Gamers8 2023.) Serral's lost so many late games recently - to Mana, to Astrea, etc, and these were after perfectly acceptable mid games (in past metas Serral usually won late games even after bad midgames.) For wahtever reason late game isn't clicking for Serral on these maps/patch. That being said, I do still expect Serral to beat Maxpax next time they play, because it's Serral and doubting his ZvP is a mistake. Wouldn't be too shocked if he loses though. I mean, have you guys actually played ZvP this patch? It's not rocket-science as to why he's having problems. There just aren't a ton of high-level games being played these days, but basically every stage of the match-up feels tenuous. Outside of being super aggressive or all-inning a greedy build, you have to outplay your opponent pretty hard in a typical mid-late game not to get rolled over. It's not unwinnable, but it's been a long time since this MU felt this way. | ||
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FataLe
New Zealand4492 Posts
On January 12 2025 12:44 Glorfindelio wrote: I mean, have you guys actually played ZvP this patch? It's not rocket-science as to why he's having problems. There just aren't a ton of high-level games being played these days, but basically every stage of the match-up feels tenuous. Outside of being super aggressive or all-inning a greedy build, you have to outplay your opponent pretty hard in a typical mid-late game not to get rolled over. It's not unwinnable, but it's been a long time since this MU felt this way. What would any of us playing the patch have anything to do with the match-up?. I played at a top 50 GM level at my peak and that isn't even close to what these guys are playing at right now. There isn't a single conclusion I could draw, based on my level of play, that would be accurate at their level of play. MaxPax has been having a tough time against SHIN and Reynor this patch. So I'm not convinced Z is in a bad spot. We just had a balance patch and I need to see the meta settle a bit before concluding anything. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6809 Posts
On January 12 2025 09:17 FataLe wrote: While I agree it wouldn't be "risky" to make that call, MaxPax did 3-1 Serral yesterday. Food for thought. Honestly did not expect this. And it wasn't even close. Losing a game, sure. Losing a Bo5 vs P after losing a Bo3 vs P? Unheard of | ||
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ScrappyRabbit
200 Posts
The map does have a close rush by air distance, but herO had stalkers ready in his base before the mutas could get their initial harass off and after that it was pretty much GG. I think this was winnable for Reynor, late-game skytoss has been looking really powerful (interested to see how this MaxPax-Serral match goes), but I don't feel like it's a strength of herO's game. | ||
Waxangel
United States33203 Posts
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Glorfindelio
193 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15880 Posts
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dysenterymd
1178 Posts
On January 16 2025 23:24 Charoisaur wrote: Couldn't a stalker remax have won it for Max? Serral was broke and had 6 broodlords, out of energy Infesors and large part of his army supply in Corruptors I think Serral still had a decent number of adrenalings and Maxpax wasn't insanely rich? Would have to see the replay to know for sure though, Maxpax probably had a fighting chance though. Edit: Serral also had a mining base. It would be under attack but he could squeeze out a few more lings. | ||
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Glorfindelio
193 Posts
On January 16 2025 23:24 Charoisaur wrote: Couldn't a stalker remax have won it for Max? Serral was broke and had 6 broodlords, out of energy Infesors and large part of his army supply in Corruptors I'm even just shocked Max left, thought he would have won if he played it out when he did | ||
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Waxangel
United States33203 Posts
On January 16 2025 23:24 Charoisaur wrote: Couldn't a stalker remax have won it for Max? Serral was broke and had 6 broodlords, out of energy Infesors and large part of his army supply in Corruptors Perhaps, but it's really hard to assess the info and make correct decisions in unusual situations. Anyway, sick win from Serral once he actually got his composition together. His recent struggles have really been about letting Protoss get into the mid-late/game with too strong an economy/infrastructure; he's still the best late-game army control guy if he gets the resources to play a 'normal' late-game. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15880 Posts
On January 16 2025 23:26 dysenterymd wrote: I think Serral still had a decent number of adrenalings and Maxpax wasn't insanely rich? Would have to see the replay to know for sure though, Maxpax probably had a fighting chance though. Edit: Serral also had a mining base. It would be under attack but he could squeeze out a few more lings. Max had Tempests in the production tab though, if he cancels those, he has at least 2 Stalker warpins | ||
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darklycid
3375 Posts
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Glorfindelio
193 Posts
On January 16 2025 23:29 Waxangel wrote: Perhaps, but it's really hard to assess the info and make correct decisions in unusual situations. Anyway, sick win from Serral once he actually got his composition together. His recent struggles have really been about letting Protoss get into the mid-late/game with too strong an economy/infrastructure; he's still the best late-game army control guy if he gets the resources to play a 'normal' late-game. I think he's going to struggle pretty hard, relatively speaking, in this state of ZvP--his natural inclination is to play safe and drag things into the late game. And the late-game Toss army is just better in almost every regard now. So it's not a stable way to consistently win series. I honestly don't even think Max loses that game 8 times out of 10 if they replayed it. | ||
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Waxangel
United States33203 Posts
On January 17 2025 00:07 Glorfindelio wrote: I think he's going to struggle pretty hard, relatively speaking, in this state of ZvP--his natural inclination is to play safe and drag things into the late game. And the late-game Toss army is just better in almost every regard now. So it's not a stable way to consistently win series. I honestly don't even think Max loses that game 8 times out of 10 if they replayed it. On January 16 2025 23:46 darklycid wrote: Yea i think the tempest supply buff was a mistake. Idk what you wanna do to make PvZ lategame not dumb for one side (or super unfun in terms of armies). I don't think Tempests or the deathball are making or breaking these recent Serral losses. It's that MaxPax/herO were credibly pressuring Serral while building a great economic base, and then putting together his high tech army faster. The deatball has ALWAYS been strong—even when Protoss was weak—but Protoss just struggled to get there without dying or before Zerg had a 15000/5000 bank. If you look at BBBB or the game Serral won today, he's still fine in 'normal' late game when he has the money to get the usual bullshit mix that's been winning since 2012. | ||
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jack_less
77 Posts
finally conquered Serral. User was warned for this post | ||
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darklycid
3375 Posts
On January 17 2025 00:07 Waxangel wrote: I don't think Tempests or the deathball are making or breaking these recent Serral losses. It's that MaxPax/herO were credibly pressuring Serral while building a great economic base, and then putting together his high tech army faster. The deatball has ALWAYS been strong—even when Protoss was weak—but Protoss just struggled to get there without dying or before Zerg had a 15000/5000 bank. If you look at BBBB or the game Serral won today, he's still fine in 'normal' late game when he has the money to get the usual bullshit mix that's been winning since 2012. Eh lambo and harstem were of the opinion that Maxpax didnt play the lategame super well and left too early. A big issue i see is that zerg needs to go lurkers to reliably deal with the stalker immortal storm archon mix but protoss can hit tempest when zerg just hits lurkers and can just outtrade lurker corruptor too easily. There are just some issues with how the mu plays out at the moment even tho i am a big fan of the midgame and early lategame being more dynamic. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12045 Posts
On January 17 2025 00:07 Glorfindelio wrote: I think he's going to struggle pretty hard, relatively speaking, in this state of ZvP--his natural inclination is to play safe and drag things into the late game. And the late-game Toss army is just better in almost every regard now. So it's not a stable way to consistently win series. I honestly don't even think Max loses that game 8 times out of 10 if they replayed it. Reminds me of when they killed Neeb's playstyle | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15880 Posts
On January 17 2025 00:07 Waxangel wrote: I don't think Tempests or the deathball are making or breaking these recent Serral losses. It's that MaxPax/herO were credibly pressuring Serral while building a great economic base, and then putting together his high tech army faster. The deatball has ALWAYS been strong—even when Protoss was weak—but Protoss just struggled to get there without dying or before Zerg had a 15000/5000 bank. If you look at BBBB or the game Serral won today, he's still fine in 'normal' late game when he has the money to get the usual bullshit mix that's been winning since 2012. Pre-patch Serral didn't lose lategames ever, even if he was in an unfavorable position so the patch definitely has an impact imo. | ||
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