SCBOY is bringing the SC2 community another Masters Coliseum competition! The $15,000 event will be held from December 14 to January 19, while the qualifiers will be take place from December 5th to December 8 (currently being held).
The main event will consist of a 16-player group stage (four round-robin groups), followed by by an 8-player double elimination bracket.
I see that Bunny showed up for the qualifier today, missed the games unfortunately but he beat Trap in his first competitive match in 5 months so not bad at all!
On December 08 2024 20:44 bulldozer06701 wrote: So this being online, MaxPax might take it
Just like all the other online premiers he won in his life ?
Pretty bold to someone who is 23-0 in matches since the patch
He’s never won anything meaningful. He’s clearly got talent but until he does he’s just a farmer of weeklies. Let’s be real if the likes of Serral, Maru, or any of the other players who don’t regularly partake in weeklies did, and took it seriously he’s winning a fraction of what he has in here.
He’s gotta put up, simple as. At a vaguely equivalent stage of development Clem was trading decently with Reynor and Serral and taking the odd EU regional.
On December 08 2024 20:44 bulldozer06701 wrote: So this being online, MaxPax might take it
Just like all the other online premiers he won in his life ?
Pretty bold to someone who is 23-0 in matches since the patch
He’s never won anything meaningful. He’s clearly got talent but until he does he’s just a farmer of weeklies. Let’s be real if the likes of Serral, Maru, or any of the other players who don’t regularly partake in weeklies did, and took it seriously he’s winning a fraction of what he has in here.
He’s gotta put up, simple as. At a vaguely equivalent stage of development Clem was trading decently with Reynor and Serral and taking the odd EU regional.
This is not entirely true but more importantly this is not an argument to side with the idea that it's clownish to think he has a good chance of winning, lol. He was second in the last two regionals with worse balance for his race. Obviously he isn't 50% to win any given tournament, this isn't zerg 2019 so nobody is, but he's one of the favourites for sure.
On December 08 2024 20:44 bulldozer06701 wrote: So this being online, MaxPax might take it
Just like all the other online premiers he won in his life ?
Pretty bold to someone who is 23-0 in matches since the patch
He’s never won anything meaningful. He’s clearly got talent but until he does he’s just a farmer of weeklies. Let’s be real if the likes of Serral, Maru, or any of the other players who don’t regularly partake in weeklies did, and took it seriously he’s winning a fraction of what he has in here.
He’s gotta put up, simple as. At a vaguely equivalent stage of development Clem was trading decently with Reynor and Serral and taking the odd EU regional.
This is not entirely true but more importantly this is not an argument to side with the idea that it's clownish to think he has a good chance of winning, lol. He was second in the last two regionals with worse balance for his race. Obviously he isn't 50% to win any given tournament, this isn't zerg 2019 so nobody is, but he's one of the favourites for sure.
I can’t recall if Serral missed both, but he definitely missed one regional in that span.
Kinda helps to not have the ZvP GOAT, indeed IMO the strongest individual matchup in SC2 history not there.
Look he’s talented, but he’s not better than Clem was about 3/4 years ago. Clem stepped up and actually started winning tournaments that featured equally good or better competitors, taking things seriously.
MaxPax has never done it, until he does he won’t be a truly elite player no matter how skilled he is.
On December 08 2024 20:44 bulldozer06701 wrote: So this being online, MaxPax might take it
Just like all the other online premiers he won in his life ?
Pretty bold to someone who is 23-0 in matches since the patch
He’s never won anything meaningful. He’s clearly got talent but until he does he’s just a farmer of weeklies. Let’s be real if the likes of Serral, Maru, or any of the other players who don’t regularly partake in weeklies did, and took it seriously he’s winning a fraction of what he has in here.
He’s gotta put up, simple as. At a vaguely equivalent stage of development Clem was trading decently with Reynor and Serral and taking the odd EU regional.
This is not entirely true but more importantly this is not an argument to side with the idea that it's clownish to think he has a good chance of winning, lol. He was second in the last two regionals with worse balance for his race. Obviously he isn't 50% to win any given tournament, this isn't zerg 2019 so nobody is, but he's one of the favourites for sure.
I can’t recall if Serral missed both, but he definitely missed one regional in that span.
Kinda helps to not have the ZvP GOAT, indeed IMO the strongest individual matchup in SC2 history not there.
Look he’s talented, but he’s not better than Clem was about 3/4 years ago. Clem stepped up and actually started winning tournaments that featured equally good or better competitors, taking things seriously.
MaxPax has never done it, until he does he won’t be a truly elite player no matter how skilled he is.
It isn't a requirement to play Serral to win a tournament, Serral can easily lose to Clem and then you don't have to face him. Even if Serral still has the edge on him, that edge can't be more than like, 70-75%. Things that happen 25-30% happen all the time.
You're making an argument that's sound but the position that you're defending is, like, he's not a favourite to win. Yeah of course he isn't. If you think anyone is a favourite to win, I'll gladly take the opposition.
Edit: hey I'll pull some numbers, why not I'm going like, Clem 28%, Serral 25%, herO 19%, Maxpax 16%, Maru 8%, Reynor 3%, someone else 1%. (had to amend this because I forgot herO was playing)
On December 08 2024 20:44 bulldozer06701 wrote: So this being online, MaxPax might take it
Just like all the other online premiers he won in his life ?
Pretty bold to someone who is 23-0 in matches since the patch
He’s never won anything meaningful. He’s clearly got talent but until he does he’s just a farmer of weeklies. Let’s be real if the likes of Serral, Maru, or any of the other players who don’t regularly partake in weeklies did, and took it seriously he’s winning a fraction of what he has in here.
He’s gotta put up, simple as. At a vaguely equivalent stage of development Clem was trading decently with Reynor and Serral and taking the odd EU regional.
This is not entirely true but more importantly this is not an argument to side with the idea that it's clownish to think he has a good chance of winning, lol. He was second in the last two regionals with worse balance for his race. Obviously he isn't 50% to win any given tournament, this isn't zerg 2019 so nobody is, but he's one of the favourites for sure.
I can’t recall if Serral missed both, but he definitely missed one regional in that span.
Kinda helps to not have the ZvP GOAT, indeed IMO the strongest individual matchup in SC2 history not there.
Look he’s talented, but he’s not better than Clem was about 3/4 years ago. Clem stepped up and actually started winning tournaments that featured equally good or better competitors, taking things seriously.
MaxPax has never done it, until he does he won’t be a truly elite player no matter how skilled he is.
It isn't a requirement to play Serral to win a tournament, Serral can easily lose to Clem and then you don't have to face him. Even if Serral still has the edge on him, that edge can't be more than like, 70-75%. Things that happen 25-30% happen all the time.
You're making an argument that's sound but the position that you're defending is, like, he's not a favourite to win. Yeah of course he isn't. If you think anyone is a favourite to win, I'll gladly take the opposition.
herO is 0-14 in matches to Maxpax since february 2024, but to be fair those were probably all matches that he didn't care about I'll put him above Maxpax because I think he has a better shot at beating Serral but he's also weaker against Clem, their chances are pretty similar imo.
One disadvantage that Maxpax has is that he could easily lose to Reynor imo, while for Clem Serral and herO I see that as less likely.
On December 12 2024 23:56 Balnazza wrote: There is a realistic, though not super-likely chance that Clem won't even make it out of the Group Stage ._.
Highly doubt it. Even with Clem’s weak tvt, I don’t see him losing to spirit or Oliveria. He only has trouble with the Koreans terrans
Oliveria has really good TvT, he's firmly within the "best of the rest" tier of TvT (Cure, Byun, Clem, Oliveira, Gumiho - good TvTers who aren't Maru.) Would not at all be surprised seeing him beat Clem. Losing to Spirit would be a shock though, I think Clem advances second at worst.
The line-up is looking great. Looking forward to this.
But yeah, I cannot imagine the three big ones not advancing from or even suffering more than 1-2 map losses in the group stage. Probably only the mirror matchups may lead to some hiccups.
On December 14 2024 02:36 RogerChillingworth wrote: this tournament scheduling is glacial. playoffs gonna be insane tho
MC has always had enough buy-in from the Chinese community to run at a GSL-like pace in the past. In the current SC2 tournament environment, you have to wonder if the rest of the international community will have to buy in as well.
Decent first day’s action! Really wasn’t expecting Astrea to take out Cure I must say
Normally I’d find the pace a little slow, but actually in the absence of other tournaments filling the schedule at present, I’m quite enjoying that it’s that little bit more spread out.
Astrea's a joy to watch when he's playing well. Hopefully the month long break before the playoffs doesn't kill his momentum, I feel like he can take most non Maru/Clem/Serral players in his current form (he nearly got Serral, but in a rematch I imagine it would look different.)
On December 16 2024 04:40 dysenterymd wrote: Astrea's a joy to watch when he's playing well. Hopefully the month long break before the playoffs doesn't kill his momentum, I feel like he can take most non Maru/Clem/Serral players in his current form (he nearly got Serral, but in a rematch I imagine it would look different.)
Did he do much interesting? I missed some of his games.
He’s always struck me as a player who does better when he has some new idea or toy, either a funky build he figures out in a settled meta, or funky new stuff in a more fresh one
On December 16 2024 04:40 dysenterymd wrote: Astrea's a joy to watch when he's playing well. Hopefully the month long break before the playoffs doesn't kill his momentum, I feel like he can take most non Maru/Clem/Serral players in his current form (he nearly got Serral, but in a rematch I imagine it would look different.)
Did he do much interesting? I missed some of his games.
He’s always struck me as a player who does better when he has some new idea or toy, either a funky build he figures out in a settled meta, or funky new stuff in a more fresh one
Pretty standard in general. Just very clean. Astrea did us toss proud
Some good games this weekend. Serral going through as the first was to be expected, but Astrea really made a showing, 2-0'ing both Koreans and even pushing Serral. Funnily, his only poor game against Serral was a 2-base all-in, while his win was an actual lategame.
On December 15 2024 00:49 WombaT wrote: Normally I’d find the pace a little slow, but actually in the absence of other tournaments filling the schedule at present, I’m quite enjoying that it’s that little bit more spread out.
Yeah, it sort of gives the impression of an ongoing league, which in the absence of other SC2 tournaments is welcome.
On December 28 2024 00:08 Kreuger wrote: Havent watched the games, suprised by lancers showing against maru. Anyone that saw that could tell what happended? Cheese or standard?
Makes tomorrow real spicey
Standard. Got away with being pretty greedy and Maru's tank push timings didn't feel the sharpest. Good use of zealot warp ins across the map to basically force the aggression to be an all in (hero did the same vs Gumiho too).
Gumiho rolling over Maru in a mech battle and a one base all in so Maru's basically out.
Speculation of Maru winding it down (or at least taking some real time off waiting for next year to firm up) getting a bit more ammo I'd say.
Well, to be fair I can see a logic where that makes sense long term, if you consider TvP and PvT to be the same match-up, you're only practicing 2 match-ups instead of 3 and you're practicing one of them very in-depth. I don't know that it's possible to say that TvP and PvT are the same match-up, and even if you think that, probably wouldn't play it at the start of the transition in an elimination game in a group where you have a good chance of qualifying ^^'
On January 04 2025 21:51 Waxangel wrote: Yo what's up with Oliveira?
Playing solely all-ins for like 10 TvP games in a row (since like late December), and now off-racing PvT against Spirit?
I think most pro Terrans just feel that PvT is not that hard from the Toss side, it doesn't take too long to learn the mechanics to an appropriate level when you know it from the Terran side and it's a more fun way of playing and practicing than grinding TvT. Clem's already demonstrated it can work against strong fields and he's only just started taking it seriously in tournament settings.
Looking forward to seeing how Zoun gets on vs Spirit and Oli tomorrow.
Spirit looks like continuing the fine form he's been in since HSC.
I understand Clem playing PvT against Korean T that have his number, but Clem rarely loses TvT to Spirit. Feels like an unecessary risk, now Clem could be eliminated...
Maybe Clem get overconfident, or maybe all the PvT means his TvT is now very rusty.
Doesn't sit right with me I guess. It reads like Oliveira got mad that he didn't get to TvT Clem and so he sacrificed himself to make the group stupid.
On January 05 2025 23:17 Nebuchad wrote: Doesn't sit right with me I guess. It reads like Oliveira got mad that he didn't get to TvT Clem and so he sacrificed himself to make the group stupid.
Clem should Just have won his pvt vs Spirit, maybe Oli felt a better Chance vs zoun in PvP (and tbf He went 1:2).
On January 05 2025 23:17 Nebuchad wrote: Doesn't sit right with me I guess. It reads like Oliveira got mad that he didn't get to TvT Clem and so he sacrificed himself to make the group stupid.
Clem should Just have won his pvt vs Spirit, maybe Oli felt a better Chance vs zoun in PvP (and tbf He went 1:2).
If I could believe that it would be fine but there's no shot Oli thinks his PvP is better than his TvP. Clearly he was making some kind of statement
On January 05 2025 23:17 Nebuchad wrote: Doesn't sit right with me I guess. It reads like Oliveira got mad that he didn't get to TvT Clem and so he sacrificed himself to make the group stupid.
He absolutely shouldn't have lost almost all his disruptors on a bad rallypointing
On January 05 2025 23:18 Glorfindelio wrote: Well, feels a little like the Karmic Gods enacted their retribution...
Retribution for legit off-racing? If Clem was pulling a fast one or dicking around perhaps the Lords of Karma might have reason to but he’s been straight-up playing PvT for like a month now.
Fair play to Spirit! Clem’s taken out Koreans like Cure recently who I’d consider superior TvPers, so good result from him.
Not to moan about any player in particular, I think GSL group format works much better than Round Robin if it’s a group of 4. Bigger groups RR can work well, but I think you’ve a dual problem of too few matches with single sets being too important in a tie break, as well as an eliminated player with nothing but pride to play for influencing who progresses
On January 05 2025 23:17 Nebuchad wrote: Doesn't sit right with me I guess. It reads like Oliveira got mad that he didn't get to TvT Clem and so he sacrificed himself to make the group stupid.
Clem should Just have won his pvt vs Spirit, maybe Oli felt a better Chance vs zoun in PvP (and tbf He went 1:2).
Winning in smaller cups is one thing, but he's now been eliminated on PvT in his last two big events (HSC and Masters Coliseum). In effect, that makes it just like his old TvT in terms of being a weakness in big tournaments, despite good online cup numbers.
On January 05 2025 23:17 Nebuchad wrote: Doesn't sit right with me I guess. It reads like Oliveira got mad that he didn't get to TvT Clem and so he sacrificed himself to make the group stupid.
Clem should Just have won his pvt vs Spirit, maybe Oli felt a better Chance vs zoun in PvP (and tbf He went 1:2).
Winning in smaller cups is one thing, but he's now been eliminated on PvT in his last two big events (HSC and Masters Coliseum). In effect, that makes it just like his old TvT in terms of being a weakness in big tournaments, despite good online cup numbers.
I think it makes sense to keep working on it while we’re largely in a period of relatively low stakes, low prize tournies
When/if big tournies return it’s another weapon in your locker, one I don’t think Clem would have been developing in a regular season.
Maybe not a weapon you pull out all the time, but if a player is notably bad at TvP it’s a nice option to have
On January 05 2025 23:18 Glorfindelio wrote: Well, feels a little like the Karmic Gods enacted their retribution...
Retribution for legit off-racing? If Clem was pulling a fast one or dicking around perhaps the Lords of Karma might have reason to but he’s been straight-up playing PvT for like a month now.
Fair play to Spirit! Clem’s taken out Koreans like Cure recently who I’d consider superior TvPers, so good result from him.
Not to moan about any player in particular, I think GSL group format works much better than Round Robin if it’s a group of 4. Bigger groups RR can work well, but I think you’ve a dual problem of too few matches with single sets being too important in a tie break, as well as an eliminated player with nothing but pride to play for influencing who progresses
Oh don't mind me, I'm just a curmudgeonly purist who enjoys watching people power through and figure-out their worst match-ups (especially mirrors) versus trying to be cute about things. I think top pros off-racing in general is great entertainment, but I also don't think it'd be happening if the scene was super healthy. Alas.
Serral such a massive favorite now. I think MaxPax and herO have like a 30% chance to beat him in a single BO5, but with double-elim, I just can't see lightning striking twice here.
On January 07 2025 13:20 Waxangel wrote: Serral such a massive favorite now. I think MaxPax and herO have like a 30% chance to beat him in a single BO5, but with double-elim, I just can't see lightning striking twice here.
Yeah I’d be incredibly shocked if he doesn’t take this tournament now
On January 07 2025 13:20 Waxangel wrote: Serral such a massive favorite now. I think MaxPax and herO have like a 30% chance to beat him in a single BO5, but with double-elim, I just can't see lightning striking twice here.
Yeah I’d be incredibly shocked if he doesn’t take this tournament now
On December 12 2024 23:56 Balnazza wrote: There is a realistic, though not super-likely chance that Clem won't even make it out of the Group Stage ._.
Just mentioning: I fking called it!!!1
Credit to you, but I doubt even you could not predict he would lose a freaking PvT as Protoss.
Absolutely not. I am however mad that I didn't say "there is a good chance Clem and Maru might not make it", because I had a feeling about that, too...sounds hollow now ofc.
On December 12 2024 23:56 Balnazza wrote: There is a realistic, though not super-likely chance that Clem won't even make it out of the Group Stage ._.
Just mentioning: I fking called it!!!1
Clem out? Serral wins. Calling it now! Though not really a risky call
While I agree it wouldn't be "risky" to make that call, MaxPax did 3-1 Serral yesterday. Food for thought.
Serral's ZvP does look surprisingly shaky, and it's not just the fact that he lost to MaxPax and herO back to back (though they were his first two ZvP losses since Gamers8 2023.) Serral's lost so many late games recently - to Mana, to Astrea, etc, and these were after perfectly acceptable mid games (in past metas Serral usually won late games even after bad midgames.) For wahtever reason late game isn't clicking for Serral on these maps/patch.
That being said, I do still expect Serral to beat Maxpax next time they play, because it's Serral and doubting his ZvP is a mistake. Wouldn't be too shocked if he loses though.
On December 12 2024 23:56 Balnazza wrote: There is a realistic, though not super-likely chance that Clem won't even make it out of the Group Stage ._.
Just mentioning: I fking called it!!!1
Clem out? Serral wins. Calling it now! Though not really a risky call
While I agree it wouldn't be "risky" to make that call, MaxPax did 3-1 Serral yesterday. Food for thought.
Serral's ZvP does look surprisingly shaky, and it's not just the fact that he lost to MaxPax and herO back to back (though they were his first two ZvP losses since Gamers8 2023.) Serral's lost so many late games recently - to Mana, to Astrea, etc, and these were after perfectly acceptable mid games (in past metas Serral usually won late games even after bad midgames.) For wahtever reason late game isn't clicking for Serral on these maps/patch.
That being said, I do still expect Serral to beat Maxpax next time they play, because it's Serral and doubting his ZvP is a mistake. Wouldn't be too shocked if he loses though.
I mean, have you guys actually played ZvP this patch? It's not rocket-science as to why he's having problems. There just aren't a ton of high-level games being played these days, but basically every stage of the match-up feels tenuous. Outside of being super aggressive or all-inning a greedy build, you have to outplay your opponent pretty hard in a typical mid-late game not to get rolled over. It's not unwinnable, but it's been a long time since this MU felt this way.
On December 12 2024 23:56 Balnazza wrote: There is a realistic, though not super-likely chance that Clem won't even make it out of the Group Stage ._.
Just mentioning: I fking called it!!!1
Clem out? Serral wins. Calling it now! Though not really a risky call
While I agree it wouldn't be "risky" to make that call, MaxPax did 3-1 Serral yesterday. Food for thought.
Serral's ZvP does look surprisingly shaky, and it's not just the fact that he lost to MaxPax and herO back to back (though they were his first two ZvP losses since Gamers8 2023.) Serral's lost so many late games recently - to Mana, to Astrea, etc, and these were after perfectly acceptable mid games (in past metas Serral usually won late games even after bad midgames.) For wahtever reason late game isn't clicking for Serral on these maps/patch.
That being said, I do still expect Serral to beat Maxpax next time they play, because it's Serral and doubting his ZvP is a mistake. Wouldn't be too shocked if he loses though.
I mean, have you guys actually played ZvP this patch? It's not rocket-science as to why he's having problems. There just aren't a ton of high-level games being played these days, but basically every stage of the match-up feels tenuous. Outside of being super aggressive or all-inning a greedy build, you have to outplay your opponent pretty hard in a typical mid-late game not to get rolled over. It's not unwinnable, but it's been a long time since this MU felt this way.
What would any of us playing the patch have anything to do with the match-up?. I played at a top 50 GM level at my peak and that isn't even close to what these guys are playing at right now. There isn't a single conclusion I could draw, based on my level of play, that would be accurate at their level of play. MaxPax has been having a tough time against SHIN and Reynor this patch. So I'm not convinced Z is in a bad spot. We just had a balance patch and I need to see the meta settle a bit before concluding anything.
Reynor-herO: Didn't love the decision-making for Reynor there, lost to a glave timing, had his nydus all-in fail, and then went mutas vs. blink stalkers in game 5 for reasons I don't fully grasp. There were 5 oracles for herO, to be fair, but I just don't love that against someone as good with blink stalkers as herO.
The map does have a close rush by air distance, but herO had stalkers ready in his base before the mutas could get their initial harass off and after that it was pretty much GG. I think this was winnable for Reynor, late-game skytoss has been looking really powerful (interested to see how this MaxPax-Serral match goes), but I don't feel like it's a strength of herO's game.
Interesting to see Serral go Roach as what seems like an adjustment. He was playing a lot of Hydra-centric stuff when he lost to herO and MaxPax last week.
Couldn't a stalker remax have won it for Max? Serral was broke and had 6 broodlords, out of energy Infesors and large part of his army supply in Corruptors
On January 16 2025 23:24 Charoisaur wrote: Couldn't a stalker remax have won it for Max? Serral was broke and had 6 broodlords, out of energy Infesors and large part of his army supply in Corruptors
I think Serral still had a decent number of adrenalings and Maxpax wasn't insanely rich? Would have to see the replay to know for sure though, Maxpax probably had a fighting chance though.
Edit: Serral also had a mining base. It would be under attack but he could squeeze out a few more lings.
On January 16 2025 23:24 Charoisaur wrote: Couldn't a stalker remax have won it for Max? Serral was broke and had 6 broodlords, out of energy Infesors and large part of his army supply in Corruptors
I'm even just shocked Max left, thought he would have won if he played it out when he did
On January 16 2025 23:24 Charoisaur wrote: Couldn't a stalker remax have won it for Max? Serral was broke and had 6 broodlords, out of energy Infesors and large part of his army supply in Corruptors
Perhaps, but it's really hard to assess the info and make correct decisions in unusual situations.
Anyway, sick win from Serral once he actually got his composition together. His recent struggles have really been about letting Protoss get into the mid-late/game with too strong an economy/infrastructure; he's still the best late-game army control guy if he gets the resources to play a 'normal' late-game.
On January 16 2025 23:24 Charoisaur wrote: Couldn't a stalker remax have won it for Max? Serral was broke and had 6 broodlords, out of energy Infesors and large part of his army supply in Corruptors
I think Serral still had a decent number of adrenalings and Maxpax wasn't insanely rich? Would have to see the replay to know for sure though, Maxpax probably had a fighting chance though.
Edit: Serral also had a mining base. It would be under attack but he could squeeze out a few more lings.
Max had Tempests in the production tab though, if he cancels those, he has at least 2 Stalker warpins
Yea i think the tempest supply buff was a mistake. Idk what you wanna do to make PvZ lategame not dumb for one side (or super unfun in terms of armies).
On January 16 2025 23:24 Charoisaur wrote: Couldn't a stalker remax have won it for Max? Serral was broke and had 6 broodlords, out of energy Infesors and large part of his army supply in Corruptors
Perhaps, but it's really hard to assess the info and make correct decisions in unusual situations.
Anyway, sick win from Serral once he actually got his composition together. His recent struggles have really been about letting Protoss get into the mid-late/game with too strong an economy/infrastructure; he's still the best late-game army control guy if he gets the resources to play a 'normal' late-game.
I think he's going to struggle pretty hard, relatively speaking, in this state of ZvP--his natural inclination is to play safe and drag things into the late game. And the late-game Toss army is just better in almost every regard now. So it's not a stable way to consistently win series. I honestly don't even think Max loses that game 8 times out of 10 if they replayed it.
On January 16 2025 23:24 Charoisaur wrote: Couldn't a stalker remax have won it for Max? Serral was broke and had 6 broodlords, out of energy Infesors and large part of his army supply in Corruptors
Perhaps, but it's really hard to assess the info and make correct decisions in unusual situations.
Anyway, sick win from Serral once he actually got his composition together. His recent struggles have really been about letting Protoss get into the mid-late/game with too strong an economy/infrastructure; he's still the best late-game army control guy if he gets the resources to play a 'normal' late-game.
I think he's going to struggle pretty hard, relatively speaking, in this state of ZvP--his natural inclination is to play safe and drag things into the late game. And the late-game Toss army is just better in almost every regard now. So it's not a stable way to consistently win series. I honestly don't even think Max loses that game 8 times out of 10 if they replayed it.
On January 16 2025 23:46 darklycid wrote: Yea i think the tempest supply buff was a mistake. Idk what you wanna do to make PvZ lategame not dumb for one side (or super unfun in terms of armies).
I don't think Tempests or the deathball are making or breaking these recent Serral losses. It's that MaxPax/herO were credibly pressuring Serral while building a great economic base, and then putting together his high tech army faster. The deatball has ALWAYS been strong—even when Protoss was weak—but Protoss just struggled to get there without dying or before Zerg had a 15000/5000 bank.
If you look at BBBB or the game Serral won today, he's still fine in 'normal' late game when he has the money to get the usual bullshit mix that's been winning since 2012.
On January 16 2025 23:24 Charoisaur wrote: Couldn't a stalker remax have won it for Max? Serral was broke and had 6 broodlords, out of energy Infesors and large part of his army supply in Corruptors
Perhaps, but it's really hard to assess the info and make correct decisions in unusual situations.
Anyway, sick win from Serral once he actually got his composition together. His recent struggles have really been about letting Protoss get into the mid-late/game with too strong an economy/infrastructure; he's still the best late-game army control guy if he gets the resources to play a 'normal' late-game.
I think he's going to struggle pretty hard, relatively speaking, in this state of ZvP--his natural inclination is to play safe and drag things into the late game. And the late-game Toss army is just better in almost every regard now. So it's not a stable way to consistently win series. I honestly don't even think Max loses that game 8 times out of 10 if they replayed it.
On January 16 2025 23:46 darklycid wrote: Yea i think the tempest supply buff was a mistake. Idk what you wanna do to make PvZ lategame not dumb for one side (or super unfun in terms of armies).
I don't think Tempests or the deathball are making or breaking these recent Serral losses. It's that MaxPax/herO were credibly pressuring Serral while building a great economic base, and then putting together his high tech army faster. The deatball has ALWAYS been strong—even when Protoss was weak—but Protoss just struggled to get there without dying or before Zerg had a 15000/5000 bank.
If you look at BBBB or the game Serral won today, he's still fine in 'normal' late game when he has the money to get the usual bullshit mix that's been winning since 2012.
Eh lambo and harstem were of the opinion that Maxpax didnt play the lategame super well and left too early. A big issue i see is that zerg needs to go lurkers to reliably deal with the stalker immortal storm archon mix but protoss can hit tempest when zerg just hits lurkers and can just outtrade lurker corruptor too easily. There are just some issues with how the mu plays out at the moment even tho i am a big fan of the midgame and early lategame being more dynamic.
On January 16 2025 23:24 Charoisaur wrote: Couldn't a stalker remax have won it for Max? Serral was broke and had 6 broodlords, out of energy Infesors and large part of his army supply in Corruptors
Perhaps, but it's really hard to assess the info and make correct decisions in unusual situations.
Anyway, sick win from Serral once he actually got his composition together. His recent struggles have really been about letting Protoss get into the mid-late/game with too strong an economy/infrastructure; he's still the best late-game army control guy if he gets the resources to play a 'normal' late-game.
I think he's going to struggle pretty hard, relatively speaking, in this state of ZvP--his natural inclination is to play safe and drag things into the late game. And the late-game Toss army is just better in almost every regard now. So it's not a stable way to consistently win series. I honestly don't even think Max loses that game 8 times out of 10 if they replayed it.
On January 16 2025 23:24 Charoisaur wrote: Couldn't a stalker remax have won it for Max? Serral was broke and had 6 broodlords, out of energy Infesors and large part of his army supply in Corruptors
Perhaps, but it's really hard to assess the info and make correct decisions in unusual situations.
Anyway, sick win from Serral once he actually got his composition together. His recent struggles have really been about letting Protoss get into the mid-late/game with too strong an economy/infrastructure; he's still the best late-game army control guy if he gets the resources to play a 'normal' late-game.
I think he's going to struggle pretty hard, relatively speaking, in this state of ZvP--his natural inclination is to play safe and drag things into the late game. And the late-game Toss army is just better in almost every regard now. So it's not a stable way to consistently win series. I honestly don't even think Max loses that game 8 times out of 10 if they replayed it.
On January 16 2025 23:46 darklycid wrote: Yea i think the tempest supply buff was a mistake. Idk what you wanna do to make PvZ lategame not dumb for one side (or super unfun in terms of armies).
I don't think Tempests or the deathball are making or breaking these recent Serral losses. It's that MaxPax/herO were credibly pressuring Serral while building a great economic base, and then putting together his high tech army faster. The deatball has ALWAYS been strong—even when Protoss was weak—but Protoss just struggled to get there without dying or before Zerg had a 15000/5000 bank.
If you look at BBBB or the game Serral won today, he's still fine in 'normal' late game when he has the money to get the usual bullshit mix that's been winning since 2012.
Pre-patch Serral didn't lose lategames ever, even if he was in an unfavorable position so the patch definitely has an impact imo.
On January 16 2025 23:24 Charoisaur wrote: Couldn't a stalker remax have won it for Max? Serral was broke and had 6 broodlords, out of energy Infesors and large part of his army supply in Corruptors
Perhaps, but it's really hard to assess the info and make correct decisions in unusual situations.
Anyway, sick win from Serral once he actually got his composition together. His recent struggles have really been about letting Protoss get into the mid-late/game with too strong an economy/infrastructure; he's still the best late-game army control guy if he gets the resources to play a 'normal' late-game.
I think he's going to struggle pretty hard, relatively speaking, in this state of ZvP--his natural inclination is to play safe and drag things into the late game. And the late-game Toss army is just better in almost every regard now. So it's not a stable way to consistently win series. I honestly don't even think Max loses that game 8 times out of 10 if they replayed it.
On January 16 2025 23:46 darklycid wrote: Yea i think the tempest supply buff was a mistake. Idk what you wanna do to make PvZ lategame not dumb for one side (or super unfun in terms of armies).
I don't think Tempests or the deathball are making or breaking these recent Serral losses. It's that MaxPax/herO were credibly pressuring Serral while building a great economic base, and then putting together his high tech army faster. The deatball has ALWAYS been strong—even when Protoss was weak—but Protoss just struggled to get there without dying or before Zerg had a 15000/5000 bank.
If you look at BBBB or the game Serral won today, he's still fine in 'normal' late game when he has the money to get the usual bullshit mix that's been winning since 2012.
Eh lambo and harstem were of the opinion that Maxpax didnt play the lategame super well and left too early. A big issue i see is that zerg needs to go lurkers to reliably deal with the stalker immortal storm archon mix but protoss can hit tempest when zerg just hits lurkers and can just outtrade lurker corruptor too easily. There are just some issues with how the mu plays out at the moment even tho i am a big fan of the midgame and early lategame being more dynamic.
Don't think that's a disagreement? It's all the stuff before the high-tech units come out that are helping Protoss beat Serral these last few days.
On January 16 2025 23:24 Charoisaur wrote: Couldn't a stalker remax have won it for Max? Serral was broke and had 6 broodlords, out of energy Infesors and large part of his army supply in Corruptors
Perhaps, but it's really hard to assess the info and make correct decisions in unusual situations.
Anyway, sick win from Serral once he actually got his composition together. His recent struggles have really been about letting Protoss get into the mid-late/game with too strong an economy/infrastructure; he's still the best late-game army control guy if he gets the resources to play a 'normal' late-game.
I think he's going to struggle pretty hard, relatively speaking, in this state of ZvP--his natural inclination is to play safe and drag things into the late game. And the late-game Toss army is just better in almost every regard now. So it's not a stable way to consistently win series. I honestly don't even think Max loses that game 8 times out of 10 if they replayed it.
On January 16 2025 23:46 darklycid wrote: Yea i think the tempest supply buff was a mistake. Idk what you wanna do to make PvZ lategame not dumb for one side (or super unfun in terms of armies).
I don't think Tempests or the deathball are making or breaking these recent Serral losses. It's that MaxPax/herO were credibly pressuring Serral while building a great economic base, and then putting together his high tech army faster. The deatball has ALWAYS been strong—even when Protoss was weak—but Protoss just struggled to get there without dying or before Zerg had a 15000/5000 bank.
If you look at BBBB or the game Serral won today, he's still fine in 'normal' late game when he has the money to get the usual bullshit mix that's been winning since 2012.
Eh lambo and harstem were of the opinion that Maxpax didnt play the lategame super well and left too early. A big issue i see is that zerg needs to go lurkers to reliably deal with the stalker immortal storm archon mix but protoss can hit tempest when zerg just hits lurkers and can just outtrade lurker corruptor too easily. There are just some issues with how the mu plays out at the moment even tho i am a big fan of the midgame and early lategame being more dynamic.
Don't think that's a disagreement? It's all the stuff before the high-tech units come out that are helping Protoss beat Serral these last few days.
I dont know if you can say that zerg can just win with infestor bl when in the game today maxpax probably left too early.
On January 16 2025 23:24 Charoisaur wrote: Couldn't a stalker remax have won it for Max? Serral was broke and had 6 broodlords, out of energy Infesors and large part of his army supply in Corruptors
Perhaps, but it's really hard to assess the info and make correct decisions in unusual situations.
Anyway, sick win from Serral once he actually got his composition together. His recent struggles have really been about letting Protoss get into the mid-late/game with too strong an economy/infrastructure; he's still the best late-game army control guy if he gets the resources to play a 'normal' late-game.
I think he's going to struggle pretty hard, relatively speaking, in this state of ZvP--his natural inclination is to play safe and drag things into the late game. And the late-game Toss army is just better in almost every regard now. So it's not a stable way to consistently win series. I honestly don't even think Max loses that game 8 times out of 10 if they replayed it.
On January 16 2025 23:46 darklycid wrote: Yea i think the tempest supply buff was a mistake. Idk what you wanna do to make PvZ lategame not dumb for one side (or super unfun in terms of armies).
I don't think Tempests or the deathball are making or breaking these recent Serral losses. It's that MaxPax/herO were credibly pressuring Serral while building a great economic base, and then putting together his high tech army faster. The deatball has ALWAYS been strong—even when Protoss was weak—but Protoss just struggled to get there without dying or before Zerg had a 15000/5000 bank.
If you look at BBBB or the game Serral won today, he's still fine in 'normal' late game when he has the money to get the usual bullshit mix that's been winning since 2012.
Eh lambo and harstem were of the opinion that Maxpax didnt play the lategame super well and left too early. A big issue i see is that zerg needs to go lurkers to reliably deal with the stalker immortal storm archon mix but protoss can hit tempest when zerg just hits lurkers and can just outtrade lurker corruptor too easily. There are just some issues with how the mu plays out at the moment even tho i am a big fan of the midgame and early lategame being more dynamic.
Don't think that's a disagreement? It's all the stuff before the high-tech units come out that are helping Protoss beat Serral these last few days.
I dont know if you can say that zerg can just win with infestor bl when in the game today maxpax probably left too early.
I'm not saying it's an auto-win for everyone (ppl have been complaining about Protoss deathball forever at lower levels), but I don't see anything especially problematic about the full late-game armies scenario for SERRAL between today's game and his Abyssal Reef win against MaxPax in BBBB.
On January 16 2025 23:24 Charoisaur wrote: Couldn't a stalker remax have won it for Max? Serral was broke and had 6 broodlords, out of energy Infesors and large part of his army supply in Corruptors
Perhaps, but it's really hard to assess the info and make correct decisions in unusual situations.
Anyway, sick win from Serral once he actually got his composition together. His recent struggles have really been about letting Protoss get into the mid-late/game with too strong an economy/infrastructure; he's still the best late-game army control guy if he gets the resources to play a 'normal' late-game.
I think he's going to struggle pretty hard, relatively speaking, in this state of ZvP--his natural inclination is to play safe and drag things into the late game. And the late-game Toss army is just better in almost every regard now. So it's not a stable way to consistently win series. I honestly don't even think Max loses that game 8 times out of 10 if they replayed it.
On January 16 2025 23:46 darklycid wrote: Yea i think the tempest supply buff was a mistake. Idk what you wanna do to make PvZ lategame not dumb for one side (or super unfun in terms of armies).
I don't think Tempests or the deathball are making or breaking these recent Serral losses. It's that MaxPax/herO were credibly pressuring Serral while building a great economic base, and then putting together his high tech army faster. The deatball has ALWAYS been strong—even when Protoss was weak—but Protoss just struggled to get there without dying or before Zerg had a 15000/5000 bank.
If you look at BBBB or the game Serral won today, he's still fine in 'normal' late game when he has the money to get the usual bullshit mix that's been winning since 2012.
Pre-patch Serral didn't lose lategames ever, even if he was in an unfavorable position so the patch definitely has an impact imo.
I really can't agree with this view. Protoss players have definitely given Serral a hard time if allowed to go late with a strong economy. See: 2022 Zoun or ShoWTimE, players you expected to get totally destroyed by him. Yeah, the bullshit, pulled-out-of-the-ass wins like the one against ShoWTimE stick in our memory, but I wouldn't say that's the norm.
You guys should really just watch the BBBB match vs MaxPax on Abyssal Reef, which is the same old ultra-late win from Serral when he gets all the casters and tech units he needs. The problem in his recent losses really is being stuck on Hydra-Lurker with no casters when a rich Protoss is getting a early-deathball wtih Archon-Templar-Disruptor.
On January 16 2025 23:24 Charoisaur wrote: Couldn't a stalker remax have won it for Max? Serral was broke and had 6 broodlords, out of energy Infesors and large part of his army supply in Corruptors
Perhaps, but it's really hard to assess the info and make correct decisions in unusual situations.
Anyway, sick win from Serral once he actually got his composition together. His recent struggles have really been about letting Protoss get into the mid-late/game with too strong an economy/infrastructure; he's still the best late-game army control guy if he gets the resources to play a 'normal' late-game.
I think he's going to struggle pretty hard, relatively speaking, in this state of ZvP--his natural inclination is to play safe and drag things into the late game. And the late-game Toss army is just better in almost every regard now. So it's not a stable way to consistently win series. I honestly don't even think Max loses that game 8 times out of 10 if they replayed it.
On January 16 2025 23:46 darklycid wrote: Yea i think the tempest supply buff was a mistake. Idk what you wanna do to make PvZ lategame not dumb for one side (or super unfun in terms of armies).
I don't think Tempests or the deathball are making or breaking these recent Serral losses. It's that MaxPax/herO were credibly pressuring Serral while building a great economic base, and then putting together his high tech army faster. The deatball has ALWAYS been strong—even when Protoss was weak—but Protoss just struggled to get there without dying or before Zerg had a 15000/5000 bank.
If you look at BBBB or the game Serral won today, he's still fine in 'normal' late game when he has the money to get the usual bullshit mix that's been winning since 2012.
Eh lambo and harstem were of the opinion that Maxpax didnt play the lategame super well and left too early. A big issue i see is that zerg needs to go lurkers to reliably deal with the stalker immortal storm archon mix but protoss can hit tempest when zerg just hits lurkers and can just outtrade lurker corruptor too easily. There are just some issues with how the mu plays out at the moment even tho i am a big fan of the midgame and early lategame being more dynamic.
Don't think that's a disagreement? It's all the stuff before the high-tech units come out that are helping Protoss beat Serral these last few days.
I dont know if you can say that zerg can just win with infestor bl when in the game today maxpax probably left too early.
I'm not saying it's an auto-win for everyone (ppl have been complaining about Protoss deathball forever at lower levels), but I don't see anything especially problematic about the full late-game armies scenario for SERRAL between today's game and his Abyssal Reef win against MaxPax in BBBB.
On January 16 2025 23:24 Charoisaur wrote: Couldn't a stalker remax have won it for Max? Serral was broke and had 6 broodlords, out of energy Infesors and large part of his army supply in Corruptors
Perhaps, but it's really hard to assess the info and make correct decisions in unusual situations.
Anyway, sick win from Serral once he actually got his composition together. His recent struggles have really been about letting Protoss get into the mid-late/game with too strong an economy/infrastructure; he's still the best late-game army control guy if he gets the resources to play a 'normal' late-game.
I think he's going to struggle pretty hard, relatively speaking, in this state of ZvP--his natural inclination is to play safe and drag things into the late game. And the late-game Toss army is just better in almost every regard now. So it's not a stable way to consistently win series. I honestly don't even think Max loses that game 8 times out of 10 if they replayed it.
On January 16 2025 23:46 darklycid wrote: Yea i think the tempest supply buff was a mistake. Idk what you wanna do to make PvZ lategame not dumb for one side (or super unfun in terms of armies).
I don't think Tempests or the deathball are making or breaking these recent Serral losses. It's that MaxPax/herO were credibly pressuring Serral while building a great economic base, and then putting together his high tech army faster. The deatball has ALWAYS been strong—even when Protoss was weak—but Protoss just struggled to get there without dying or before Zerg had a 15000/5000 bank.
If you look at BBBB or the game Serral won today, he's still fine in 'normal' late game when he has the money to get the usual bullshit mix that's been winning since 2012.
Pre-patch Serral didn't lose lategames ever, even if he was in an unfavorable position so the patch definitely has an impact imo.
I really can't agree with this view. Protoss players have definitely given Serral a hard time if allowed to go late with a strong economy. See: 2022 Zoun or ShoWTimE, players you expected to get totally destroyed by him. Yeah, the bullshit, pulled-out-of-the-ass wins like the one against ShoWTimE stick in our memory, but I wouldn't say that's the norm.
Obv cant rly talk about the super lategame right now as i feel like it almost never goes there but there is def an issue right now in how protoss can just win with tempest immortal storm (and it looks very desperate for zerg). Now in general i am for letting zergs figure stuff out because thats how they work but it def doesn't look good and i am not enjoying these games too much.
On January 16 2025 23:24 Charoisaur wrote: Couldn't a stalker remax have won it for Max? Serral was broke and had 6 broodlords, out of energy Infesors and large part of his army supply in Corruptors
Perhaps, but it's really hard to assess the info and make correct decisions in unusual situations.
Anyway, sick win from Serral once he actually got his composition together. His recent struggles have really been about letting Protoss get into the mid-late/game with too strong an economy/infrastructure; he's still the best late-game army control guy if he gets the resources to play a 'normal' late-game.
I think he's going to struggle pretty hard, relatively speaking, in this state of ZvP--his natural inclination is to play safe and drag things into the late game. And the late-game Toss army is just better in almost every regard now. So it's not a stable way to consistently win series. I honestly don't even think Max loses that game 8 times out of 10 if they replayed it.
On January 16 2025 23:46 darklycid wrote: Yea i think the tempest supply buff was a mistake. Idk what you wanna do to make PvZ lategame not dumb for one side (or super unfun in terms of armies).
I don't think Tempests or the deathball are making or breaking these recent Serral losses. It's that MaxPax/herO were credibly pressuring Serral while building a great economic base, and then putting together his high tech army faster. The deatball has ALWAYS been strong—even when Protoss was weak—but Protoss just struggled to get there without dying or before Zerg had a 15000/5000 bank.
If you look at BBBB or the game Serral won today, he's still fine in 'normal' late game when he has the money to get the usual bullshit mix that's been winning since 2012.
I think it's the inability to efficiently make trades with Toss after a certain point that makes that pressure so much harder to deal with. Because that bank doesn't really accrue like it used to before. Even transitioning out of the mid-game can be incredibly tricky, because of the amount of Corruptors (like a dozen +) you need to deal with a few tempests + Mothership that can't be abducted), and how poorly Lurkers do when they're not supported or have to move into an engagement. It also makes army splitting a lot trickier and costlier to make those trades sometimes.
Even last patch, it wasn't like Toss was in a bad spot against Zerg. Pretty sure the only person who was winning consistently was Serral, and even then his series against HerO at EWC were close (well, the second one). Throw in energy overcharge, Tempest supply and a Mothership that can't be abducted versus what, Hydra dash? Blinding Cloud (lol)?
Which ultimately, whatever. Protoss should have their time in the sun. But I also don't think the best ZvPer ever just suddenly forgot how to play the MU.
On January 16 2025 23:24 Charoisaur wrote: Couldn't a stalker remax have won it for Max? Serral was broke and had 6 broodlords, out of energy Infesors and large part of his army supply in Corruptors
Perhaps, but it's really hard to assess the info and make correct decisions in unusual situations.
Anyway, sick win from Serral once he actually got his composition together. His recent struggles have really been about letting Protoss get into the mid-late/game with too strong an economy/infrastructure; he's still the best late-game army control guy if he gets the resources to play a 'normal' late-game.
I think he's going to struggle pretty hard, relatively speaking, in this state of ZvP--his natural inclination is to play safe and drag things into the late game. And the late-game Toss army is just better in almost every regard now. So it's not a stable way to consistently win series. I honestly don't even think Max loses that game 8 times out of 10 if they replayed it.
On January 16 2025 23:46 darklycid wrote: Yea i think the tempest supply buff was a mistake. Idk what you wanna do to make PvZ lategame not dumb for one side (or super unfun in terms of armies).
I don't think Tempests or the deathball are making or breaking these recent Serral losses. It's that MaxPax/herO were credibly pressuring Serral while building a great economic base, and then putting together his high tech army faster. The deatball has ALWAYS been strong—even when Protoss was weak—but Protoss just struggled to get there without dying or before Zerg had a 15000/5000 bank.
If you look at BBBB or the game Serral won today, he's still fine in 'normal' late game when he has the money to get the usual bullshit mix that's been winning since 2012.
I think it's the inability to efficiently make trades with Toss after a certain point that makes that pressure so much harder to deal with. Because that bank doesn't really accrue like it used to before. Even transitioning out of the mid-game can be incredibly tricky, because of the amount of Corruptors (like a dozen +) you need to deal with a few tempests + Mothership that can't be abducted), and how poorly Lurkers do when they're not supported or have to move into an engagement. It also makes army splitting a lot trickier and costlier to make those trades sometimes.
Even last patch, it wasn't like Toss was in a bad spot against Zerg. Pretty sure the only person who was winning consistently was Serral, and even then his series against HerO at EWC were close (well, the second one). Throw in energy overcharge, Tempest supply and a Mothership that can't be abducted versus what, Hydra dash? Blinding Cloud (lol)?
Which ultimately, whatever. Protoss should have their time in the sun. But I also don't think the best ZvPer ever just suddenly forgot how to play the MU.
While i think you are right about the part where toss wasn't in a bad spot last patch it def still felt like there was some inevitability in going lategame against a good latgegame zerg (which is why i think serral usually won those).
Currently it feels like the lategame is protoss favored so he cannot just play his defense into win style. I think it was kinda problematic but rn protoss feels like they have the edge in every stage or are at worst even outside maybe some all ins.
While I agree that protoss is the best race right now (and I predicted it from the moment of the patch, which I won't mention more than once a post don't worry), I also don't mind if Serral has to play a little differently. It always feels kind of stupid to me that someone gets to play all of his important games in a very similar way with a very similar game plan and basically never lose.
Yeah for once Zerg does not have the edge in ZvP lategame and Serral has to adapt. Problem is that I don't really see Zerg having enough opportunities to kill them in midgame.
But truth be told, Protoss has suffered from poor balance for so long, just let them be strong for once
On January 17 2025 02:32 Charoisaur wrote: Yeah for once Zerg does not have the edge in ZvP lategame and Serral has to adapt. Problem is that I don't really see Zerg having enough opportunities to kill them in midgame.
But truth be told, Protoss has suffered from poor balance for so long, just let them be strong for once
Oh yea cant say that im Not Feeling some Schadenfreude as a toss myself. (Tho idk if toss is the best Race rn when the best terrans this Tournament either locked Like they didnt Care at all or stumbled because of playing protoss )
On January 17 2025 02:32 Charoisaur wrote: Yeah for once Zerg does not have the edge in ZvP lategame and Serral has to adapt. Problem is that I don't really see Zerg having enough opportunities to kill them in midgame.
But truth be told, Protoss has suffered from poor balance for so long, just let them be strong for once
Yeah honestly, I'm more than fine with Serral and other Zergs having to adapt and figuring out a way to compound an edge from the mid-game or aggressively punishing certain openings in some way. Obviously it can't be done on certain maps, but Serral's muta game against Maxpax is an excellent example of this. It's not impossible to win--the margins are just thinner and will require a different approach.
On January 16 2025 23:24 Charoisaur wrote: Couldn't a stalker remax have won it for Max? Serral was broke and had 6 broodlords, out of energy Infesors and large part of his army supply in Corruptors
Perhaps, but it's really hard to assess the info and make correct decisions in unusual situations.
Anyway, sick win from Serral once he actually got his composition together. His recent struggles have really been about letting Protoss get into the mid-late/game with too strong an economy/infrastructure; he's still the best late-game army control guy if he gets the resources to play a 'normal' late-game.
I think he's going to struggle pretty hard, relatively speaking, in this state of ZvP--his natural inclination is to play safe and drag things into the late game. And the late-game Toss army is just better in almost every regard now. So it's not a stable way to consistently win series. I honestly don't even think Max loses that game 8 times out of 10 if they replayed it.
On January 16 2025 23:46 darklycid wrote: Yea i think the tempest supply buff was a mistake. Idk what you wanna do to make PvZ lategame not dumb for one side (or super unfun in terms of armies).
I don't think Tempests or the deathball are making or breaking these recent Serral losses. It's that MaxPax/herO were credibly pressuring Serral while building a great economic base, and then putting together his high tech army faster. The deatball has ALWAYS been strong—even when Protoss was weak—but Protoss just struggled to get there without dying or before Zerg had a 15000/5000 bank.
If you look at BBBB or the game Serral won today, he's still fine in 'normal' late game when he has the money to get the usual bullshit mix that's been winning since 2012.
I think it's the inability to efficiently make trades with Toss after a certain point that makes that pressure so much harder to deal with. Because that bank doesn't really accrue like it used to before. Even transitioning out of the mid-game can be incredibly tricky, because of the amount of Corruptors (like a dozen +) you need to deal with a few tempests + Mothership that can't be abducted), and how poorly Lurkers do when they're not supported or have to move into an engagement. It also makes army splitting a lot trickier and costlier to make those trades sometimes.
Even last patch, it wasn't like Toss was in a bad spot against Zerg. Pretty sure the only person who was winning consistently was Serral, and even then his series against HerO at EWC were close (well, the second one). Throw in energy overcharge, Tempest supply and a Mothership that can't be abducted versus what, Hydra dash? Blinding Cloud (lol)?
Which ultimately, whatever. Protoss should have their time in the sun. But I also don't think the best ZvPer ever just suddenly forgot how to play the MU.
While i think you are right about the part where toss wasn't in a bad spot last patch it def still felt like there was some inevitability in going lategame against a good latgegame zerg (which is why i think serral usually won those).
Currently it feels like the lategame is protoss favored so he cannot just play his defense into win style. I think it was kinda problematic but rn protoss feels like they have the edge in every stage or are at worst even outside maybe some all ins.
It feels every time PvZ is in quite a decent spot the pendulum swings back in either direction pretty quickly.
That was a tight series, I think Serral was one bad stasis from swinging one game, MaxPax could have flipped a loss too.
We’ll see what people figure out, I was waiting for Serral to play a few more against top Z to see how his ZvP looked and even he’s struggling.
It seems very difficult indeed these days, Toss seem very potent in basically all phases of the game is my current basic read.
1. Oracles having more energy has two big knock-on effects. In direct harassment they don’t seem to be doing much more, but they reliably have energy to bolster defences. Crucially they are sticking down more stasis in the sharking with Stalkers phase. When herO debuted his style it was wrecking face for a bit, before returning to semi normality, Z players would flank them with upgraded lings and things like that were adjustments made.
Nowadays it feels a very tricky move to pull off, or at least a very risky one. Eat a stasis, of which there tend to be more and what could be a winning engagement can turn into a disaster.
It feels that Toss mid game pressure has a little more sustain in containing Zerg now, and outside of certain committed all-ins they’re reasonably defensively secure then too.
2. Due to 1 feels Toss transitions that bit faster now, on top of Zerg transitioning that bit slower. Both in terms of eco setup as well as compositionally. That period where Zerg can wrest back control of the ground to some degree with Lurkers before Tempest kick in is pretty razor thin.
If Zerg had either a monster economy that they could switch to their doom army a bit quicker, or have the lurker phase where they’re effective a little longer and they could trade armies, then it’s doable.
Hey I’m all for waiting for things to settle and people to figure stuff out, it does feel rather rough.
If my memory is correct Serral didn’t lose a ZvP series the entirety of the last (extended) ESL circuit, and he’s lost 3 in a week now?
It feels every time PvZ is in quite a decent spot the pendulum swings back in either direction pretty quickly. .... If my memory is correct Serral didn’t lose a ZvP series the entirety of the last (extended) ESL circuit, and he’s lost 3 in a week now?
The last 2-3 years how much ZvP late game, players did we have? 1-3 Serral, Dark, Reynor? The rest of the zerg players avoid late game because it's one-sided. and casual zerg players even longer. But maybe that's what we're aiming for: Zerg should not be a late game race. But then the early to mid game should be stronger.
Bit early to say, but PvZ seems a tiny bit Protoss favored right now. I still don't think Protoss should be changed much yet - there's precedent of Protoss getting nerfed to the ground whenever it shows any sign of life. We need to see a few more matches between top P and Z anyways.
Lots of maps right now seem to be quite tempest friendly - if something had to change, I'd rather that change first instead of P nerfs.
It feels every time PvZ is in quite a decent spot the pendulum swings back in either direction pretty quickly. .... If my memory is correct Serral didn’t lose a ZvP series the entirety of the last (extended) ESL circuit, and he’s lost 3 in a week now?
The last 2-3 years how much ZvP late game, players did we have? 1-3 Serral, Dark, Reynor? The rest of the zerg players avoid late game because it's one-sided. and casual zerg players even longer. But maybe that's what we're aiming for: Zerg should not be a late game race. But then the early to mid game should be stronger.
I mean it was an issue when zerg could go from less cost effective but mass expand in the midgame to be more cost effective in the lategame, even when later on the midagme wasnt as bad anymore for toss someone like serral was still able to enter lategames usually in a good position to still pull it off.
The issue seems to be that right now zerg is not really more cost effective in the lategame and not able to enter it in a really good spot usually.
It feels every time PvZ is in quite a decent spot the pendulum swings back in either direction pretty quickly. .... If my memory is correct Serral didn’t lose a ZvP series the entirety of the last (extended) ESL circuit, and he’s lost 3 in a week now?
The last 2-3 years how much ZvP late game, players did we have? 1-3 Serral, Dark, Reynor? The rest of the zerg players avoid late game because it's one-sided. and casual zerg players even longer. But maybe that's what we're aiming for: Zerg should not be a late game race. But then the early to mid game should be stronger.
I think it somewhat sails under the radar quite how long Serral managed to be so brutally good in late game while others gradually faltered over time.
That observation aside, it’d be cool if Zerg was more ‘swarmy’, but hey we’ve had periods where it’s late game they’ve shined in, or attritional warfare.
At present it doesn’t really feel at the top level that they have any real phase where they shine, outside of maybe the fabled ‘super late game’, which is super hard to get to in good shape.
Early, they don’t really take a ton of damage, nor have a huge amount of aggressive potential either. Midgame there is some, but most games seem to end with a result that Toss at least contain them exploding in eco and creep. They’re having to produce units to stop the stalker snowball that can happen as well, so it just slows that growth down a bit. Lategame comes relatively slower versus Toss’ now so you’re kinda entering that phase in a position you can’t do as much damage as before, or alternatively you lack the eco to trade really inefficiently which you can sometimes do if you get away with a greedy midgame.
It just seems quite rough all-round, and frankly I’d imagine it’s pretty horrible to play at lower levels.
On the flip side I mean herO’s strategic innovations could conceivably have come way earlier back in the day, they weren’t purely the result of patching shaking things up or anything.
So perhaps Serral or some other Zerg can figure some solutions that mere mortals like myself can’t see. Interested to see what happens!
So Zerg having trouble dealing with Terran lategame, then they nerf Terran lategame to the ground (justifiably so) and now Zerg having trouble with Protoss lategame? We all know what to do here, right? Sacasm aside, I never thought Protoss was in a bad position against Zerg to begin with, and this current change in balance/map really tip the favor too much into the Protoss side.
Poor protoss having the strongest race when there are no high stakes tournaments going on Still curious to see if Serral will find a way, he basically never had to
On January 17 2025 23:15 Poopi wrote: Poor protoss having the strongest race when there are no high stakes tournaments going on Still curious to see if Serral will find a way, he basically never had to
If pvt is now toss favored in your opinion its Probably balanced (Idk If it is, looks kinda balanced so far imo).
On January 19 2025 00:58 Waxangel wrote: MaxPax not beating the small tournament merchant allegations, losing 1-4 to a guy he beats like 66% of the time in cups.
Aye, if you gave me a pick of any Toss to do the best in 100 ladder games, or a low stakes weekly tournament with my life on the line I’m going Maximus Paximus.
If it’s the same stakes riding on a high stakes Premier/Major playoff I’m picking herO every time.
That said he can still salvage this tournament and shed some of that reputation if he beats Serral again and reverses herO’s beatdown. That would definitely fill some of the gaps in his resume in coming through clutch in a big tournament against the best in the business.
On January 19 2025 01:44 Nebuchad wrote: Top 3 of a tourney with all the best players => Lol he's a ladder hero
Cure spent forever being a clearly talented player who didn’t really bring it to the big offline stage. MaxPax is just being judged by the same standards those who came before him were.
It’s not MaxPax’s fault that some people have dropped the historic metrics that separate the great from the good for him specifically. But many have and there’s a natural pushback there.
On January 19 2025 01:44 Nebuchad wrote: Top 3 of a tourney with all the best players => Lol he's a ladder hero
Cure spent forever being a clearly talented player who didn’t really bring it to the big offline stage. MaxPax is just being judged by the same standards those who came before him were.
It’s not MaxPax’s fault that some people have dropped the historic metrics that separate the great from the good for him specifically. But many have and there’s a natural pushback there.
You're just getting married to the narrative. I was there, nobody was calling soO a ladder hero, or Cure or Trap. Not even Heromarine was called a ladder hero and he fits the description much more. Someone who doesn't perform at high level doesn't make Ro3 against every top player while beating the remaining seed 1 on their path, it's just a biased claim.
Also the weeklies are high level by themselves. The notion that people who have played like 100 of them, there every week, lose because they don't really care is just extreme cope.
On January 19 2025 03:11 Nebuchad wrote: You're just getting married to the narrative. I was there, nobody was calling soO a ladder hero, or Cure or Trap. Not even Heromarine was called a ladder hero and he fits the description much more. Someone who doesn't perform at high level doesn't make Ro3 against every top player while beating the remaining seed 1 on their path, it's just a biased claim.
Also the weeklies are high level by themselves. The notion that people who have played like 100 of them, there every week, lose because they don't really care is just extreme cope.
From a cursory search of ‘Cure online’ on here, one finds articles such as this
As it turned out, three months of online play weren't as meaningful as four years of Code S in informing us about Cure's status: that of a player doomed to be hard-stuck in the group stages. It's clear that even without an audience, there's something about offline-play that prevents Cure from playing at his usual level. Either that, or it's that Cure's level stays the same offline, while the truly elite players step up their game when the stakes are raised.
It’s been the case forever that ladder, or performance in weekly cups has been used as a barometer to judge a player’s talent or outright skill level, but ultimately to be considered a great player you have to deliver in the bigger tournaments.
As Wax points out Trap was also in this boat for a good long while, and he’s one of my all-time favourite players.
MaxPax outright not playing offline is a new variable, as is the lack of many high stakes tournaments currently, but nobody in SC2 history has ever been considered truly elite without those big results. Weeklies have always been perceived as not especially important when assessing a player’s status, though they have tons of other value.
He’s just being judged by the standards everyone else has always been judged by, it’s nothing new.
He’s had a good performance here too, even if he tanks it tomorrow. If he can take out Serral again and avenge his defeat to herO, well there’s that kind of clutch performance when the stakes are higher that folks think he largely lacks in his resumé
On January 19 2025 04:31 Nebuchad wrote: Your quote says "hard stuck in the group stages", sounds a bit different from top 3 world don't you think?
I just pulled the first vaguely applicable hit from my search, there’s plenty else out there. From a much more cutthroat competitive era as well incidentally.
The whole point was to show that Cure was considered an online monster who didn’t have high stakes deep performances, and this was held against him, and fans were just waiting for his obvious talent showcased in online competitions to manifest in those high stakes offline events.
For years this was the case, Trap was another. They’re most notable but aren’t alone in this.
Hell Clem was in the ‘clearly talented, and he’s won some EU regionals but he’s not a real great until he shows it in an international tournament and more consistently’. MaxPax hasn’t even done the former
MaxPax is just being judged by the standards of everybody else in the scene and how they’ve always been judged
It makes sense to say that someone who performs online and then loses in group stage is a ladder hero or like stuck in practice or whatever. It doesn't make sense to say to someone who runs deep in every tournament they play. I doubt you would find articles about "ladder hero Cure" making gsl semifinals, but I'd disagree with those too if they exist. Worth pointing out that Cure has never been on a level to win a bunch of things, he won like once or twice a bunch of years ago right? Otherwise he's doing more or less what Maxpax is doing, with worse results.
On January 19 2025 05:36 Nebuchad wrote: It makes sense to say that someone who performs online and then loses in group stage is a ladder hero or like stuck in practice or whatever. It doesn't make sense to say to someone who runs deep in every tournament they play. I doubt you would find articles about "ladder hero Cure" making gsl semifinals, but I'd disagree with those too if they exist. Worth pointing out that Cure has never been on a level to win a bunch of things, he won like once or twice a bunch of years ago right? Otherwise he's doing more or less what Maxpax is doing, with worse results.
Cure has a GSL, multiple Premier silvers including GSL and Gamers 8, a bunch of Premier Ro4s including multiple GSL runs and a Katowice Ro4. Versus a MaxPax who’s got 2 WCS EU silvers.
It’s not calling him a ladder hero, indeed I didn’t call him that nor did Wax.
But his reputation is built upon his performance in domains that no other player in SC2’s history has ever been considered elite for conquering.
By all means disagree with the metric, but it’s always been the metric.
Imo Maxpax current position is much more comparable to Lucifron's than to Cure's. A guy where all his peers swear he's a world beater and he looks it in minor tourneys (even those with elite players) but he doesn't have big tournament results yet outside of a few semis.
We'll basically see in this tournament if he turns out like Lucifron or if he turns out like Cure.
This tournament is still pretty minor. Just feels big because we are currently in by far the biggest gap between premier events ever. It has a similar prizepool to the Pigsty Festival he won about a year and a half ago. He needs to do well in something that pays 30k+.
On January 19 2025 09:40 JJH777 wrote: This tournament is still pretty minor. Just feels big because we are currently in by far the biggest gap between premier events ever. It has a similar prizepool to the Pigsty Festival he won about a year and a half ago. He needs to do well in something that pays 30k+.
I guess I’d consider it a bit differently given au present it’s one of the biggest around so it attracts more of the top dogs.
Sure it’s not a Katowice but I think it’s somewhat elevated over where it normally would be. A major sandwiched amongst bigger and more lucrative Premiers isn’t going to get the same focus than a major that’s one of the only gigs in town.
On January 19 2025 09:40 JJH777 wrote: This tournament is still pretty minor. Just feels big because we are currently in by far the biggest gap between premier events ever. It has a similar prizepool to the Pigsty Festival he won about a year and a half ago. He needs to do well in something that pays 30k+.
Don't worry if he wins protoss is strong right now so you can still call him a patchtoss
I won't comment on balance here as my games are far from the perfection these two guys are playing it at, but I gotta say: But in terms of viewing experience it's pretty tiring to see the majority of Pro ZvPs going to this form of lategame.
On January 19 2025 22:00 watchlulu wrote: I won't comment on balance here as my games are far from the perfection these two guys are playing it at, but I gotta say: But in terms of viewing experience it's pretty tiring to see the majority of Pro ZvPs going to this form of lategame.
On January 19 2025 22:00 watchlulu wrote: I won't comment on balance here as my games are far from the perfection these two guys are playing it at, but I gotta say: But in terms of viewing experience it's pretty tiring to see the majority of Pro ZvPs going to this form of lategame.
was this better?
Eh i Like Stalker Immortal Strom Archon vs the Hydra lurker Stage but when too many lurkers Hit the field it feels Like you need tempest but tempest promote such a lame way of playing and then zerg needs to transition to a composition that also Just makes the Game Go stale.
On January 19 2025 22:00 watchlulu wrote: I won't comment on balance here as my games are far from the perfection these two guys are playing it at, but I gotta say: But in terms of viewing experience it's pretty tiring to see the majority of Pro ZvPs going to this form of lategame.
was this better?
Eh i Like Stalker Immortal Strom Archon vs the Hydra lurker Stage but when too many lurkers Hit the field it feels Like you need tempest but tempest promote such a lame way of playing and then zerg needs to transition to a composition that also Just makes the Game Go stale.
ZvP tempest late game can be fun when there aren't massive banks and the Zerg and Toss are struggling to keep mining from one or two bases. High eco tempest late games where players just let one of a billion bases die instead of fighting army vs army are a drag though (like game 1.)
Seems like Serral's analysis of his recent ZvP rough stretch was that he was giving up way too much mid-game control by going fast Hive/Lurker? Feels a bit obvious in hindsight, but still an impressive analysis/adjustment to make in the span of a few days.
Aside from never participate in offline, MaxPax haven't even won a single online premier either. Say what you will about Cure, dude has legit won a GSL.
He's an incredibly talented player, but "best Protoss in the world" title needs to be earned, and he just hasn't done anything close to earn it yet. Again, weeklies don't count.
herO had at least two games where he had a solid chance to win but he let it slip by sloppy decision. You just don't have any room of error when you are playing a near perfect opponent like Serral.
Felt a little bad for herO, but it's nice to see him put MaxPax in his place on a tournament like this. Losing to ZvP GOAT 3:5 in a bo9 is not bad at all either.
On January 20 2025 01:11 darklycid wrote: Well felt Like herO playing below what He is able to but gz serral.
I guess it’s hard to look like you’re on your A-game because Serral just stretches you to you absolute limits, or indeed beyond. Kinda how Serral looks invincible in ZvT and at times helpless and uncharacteristically sloppy again Clem, but it’s Clem forcing those mistakes with his relentless pace. Serral’s ZvP superpower is more akin to making all the right calls and plays rather than pure speed, although he’s got plenty of that too of course!
You gotta take risks if there’s any sign of a chink in his army, risks you probably don’t take against other Zergs because the opportunities are that much more infrequent.
Felt MaxPax and herO played credibly, but Serral showed why he is the ZvP GOAT in the minds of many, and for me that’s maybe the strongest individual matchup we’ve seen in SC2
Fun tournament, many thanks to the organisers, the casters and the players!
Really wanna thank double elim for saving us from X weeks (months?) of 'Zerg is dead' discourse. Now we can get back to the familiar and comfy 'Protoss sucks' discourse
Serral vs. MaxPax was the best ZvP play I can ever remember seeing. Masterful stuff from navigating the extreme late-game in G1 to hitting a beautiful timing in G2, grabbing the advantage with beautiful map-specific swarm host play and holding it flawlessly in G4, then one more nice timing in G5 to end it. (Even the 3-prong all-in that failed looked pretty nice, insane for MaxPax to defend all three fronts simultaneously.)
Despite the map scores, I felt like the MaxPax series was "closer" than the herO one -- Serral just uncharacteristically got caught 3 times with all-ins, in anything like a standard game Serral was able to flex a pretty clear mechanical advantage -- G2 showed herO doesn't have the same grasp of the Skytoss late game MaxPax has.
That was a pretty interesting SC2 moment overall -- Serral not only had to go against one of the few players in the world that can match or outdo him from a pure multitasking/mechanics perspective (Clem, MaxPax, and Reynor would be that list from my perspective), but had to face a meta situation where going into the lategame even would seemingly put him at a disadvantage -- for the last however many years, Serral getting into the lategame unbothered in either PvZ or TvZ was essentially a win condition. (Arguable) GOAT doing GOAT stuff, amazing to watch.
Bummed this could be the last big-money tournament for a while, but the upside was MaxPax went up against Serral in a high-pressure situation, which it looks like we'll obviously never get to see in a LAN tournament.
On January 19 2025 23:12 Waxangel wrote: Seems like Serral's analysis of his recent ZvP rough stretch was that he was giving up way too much mid-game control by going fast Hive/Lurker? Feels a bit obvious in hindsight, but still an impressive analysis/adjustment to make in the span of a few days.
I felt like his answer to the skytoss should maybe have been to put the mid-game eco advantage he usually got to throw down an extra spire and hit with a corruptor swarm with the upgrade advantage, but I'm not gonna argue with how Serral went about his business.
On January 20 2025 01:32 Waxangel wrote: Really wanna thank double elim for saving us from X weeks (months?) of 'Zerg is dead' discourse. Now we can get back to the familiar and comfy 'Protoss sucks' discourse
WombaT’s LawTM strikes again.
I’d be interested in re-watching the series Serral lost and the ones he won recently, see what actual adjustments he made. It seemed at the time he’d completely flipped the script, even with mere subtle alterations so he looked really strong in the exact phases of games he previously looked weakened in.
On January 20 2025 01:32 Waxangel wrote: Really wanna thank double elim for saving us from X weeks (months?) of 'Zerg is dead' discourse. Now we can get back to the familiar and comfy 'Protoss sucks' discourse
WombaT’s LawTM strikes again.
I’d be interested in re-watching the series Serral lost and the ones he won recently, see what actual adjustments he made. It seemed at the time he’d completely flipped the script, even with mere subtle alterations so he looked really strong in the exact phases of games he previously looked weakened in.
Guy’s pretty good
My first look answer is he decided rushing to Lurkers wasn't worth it, and he replaced the 'standard' fast Hydra-Lurker approach with a mix bag of lair tech strats up to like 10-12 mins
I love how Serral's way of approaching a difficult matchup is always searching for and implementing proper adjustments and, as he sometimes says, "just playing a little bit better".
Was there a change for the final two days or something? I've been watching all other match days as recorded broadcasts on Cranky Duckling's channel on YouTube or Twitch, but for the final two days neither of those were available, nor any other recorded broadcasts by other commentators on YouTube or Twitch. Is there a way to watch the finals before they are covered by PiG, Winter, and so on?
EPT
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/misc/MC8/bracket_1.png)
I'm going like, Clem 28%, Serral 25%, herO 19%, Maxpax 16%, Maru 8%, Reynor 3%, someone else 1%. (had to amend this because I forgot herO was playing)
