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On May 10 2024 18:36 Comedy wrote:
That's right it's a number I randomly made up that in my eyes represents the community at large; so not the TL.net posters (same 5 dudes that are super maru fan boys)
It could be a bit less, it could be a bit more, the number is arbitrary, fact of the matter is that the community, the people who watch streams, participate in discords, twitch chats, go to events, so on so forth; with absolutely certainty, the majority of people thinks serral is the goat (and rightfully so.)
here on tl.net it's just the same 10 people posting back and forth to each other about maru, even in a gsl thread about reynor the whole thing becomes the main point of discussion because of these people, it's quite toxic.
You have a belief which you claim to be an undisputed fact in support of your argument. When others point that out, instead of acknowledging the fallacy, you double down. Frankly that makes you not worth debating.
It's possible that relative to TL, Discord/Twitch have higher percentages of viewers believing Serral = GOAT. Do they constitute majorities? I honestly don't know. I suspect Discord/Twitch have younger audiences, many of whom probably never watched SC2 in its earlier days. Similar to how a young NBA viewer might think LeBron is definitely the GOAT since he never really watched MJ - sure he might've heard about how great MJ was, perhaps even watched a highlight reel, but just didn't experience it. TL readers probably have a better appreciation of its history, not just the recent/present.
I do agree not every thread should lead to a Maru/Serral discussion - I myself am a bit exhausted by it - but when I see foolish arguments sometimes I can't resist the urge to get involved. Each of us, passionate about the game but with different opinion, contributes to this spiral so it's not just the fault of the "5 or 10 Maru fans", is it?
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On May 11 2024 10:22 goldensail wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2024 18:36 Comedy wrote:
That's right it's a number I randomly made up that in my eyes represents the community at large; so not the TL.net posters (same 5 dudes that are super maru fan boys)
It could be a bit less, it could be a bit more, the number is arbitrary, fact of the matter is that the community, the people who watch streams, participate in discords, twitch chats, go to events, so on so forth; with absolutely certainty, the majority of people thinks serral is the goat (and rightfully so.)
here on tl.net it's just the same 10 people posting back and forth to each other about maru, even in a gsl thread about reynor the whole thing becomes the main point of discussion because of these people, it's quite toxic. It's possible that relative to TL, Discord/Twitch have higher percentages of viewers believing Serral = GOAT. Do they constitute majorities? I honestly don't know.
It is a known fact that the majority of the SC2 viewership considers Serral the GoaT. There is no point in denying reality. This does not mean, of course, that the majority is right, to the extent that there is right and wrong in this debate. Nor does it mean that the majority of people, including both fans of Serral and Maru, are well-informed or fair in their judgment. But there is no question that Serral is the majority GoaT.
To give just two recent examples:
Even here on TL, in Maru's own thread, a poll with n = 181 showed that 59% of the voters view Serral as the GoaT, whereas only 34% view Maru as the GoaT.
The discrepancy is yet larger among the popular viewership. A poll carried out by Lowko on YouTube, with a stated n = 27K (can this be right?), shows that 76% of the voters see Serral as the GoaT, whereas only 17% voted for Maru.
Furthermore, many public figures are on record calling Serral the GoaT. This includes both pros and literal SC2 world champions, like Byun and Reynor, and many popular casters.
Once more, it is of course true that the majority opinion is not necessarily right. But there is absolutely no doubt about what the majority opinion is.
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On May 11 2024 23:56 Antithesis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2024 10:22 goldensail wrote:On May 10 2024 18:36 Comedy wrote:
That's right it's a number I randomly made up that in my eyes represents the community at large; so not the TL.net posters (same 5 dudes that are super maru fan boys)
It could be a bit less, it could be a bit more, the number is arbitrary, fact of the matter is that the community, the people who watch streams, participate in discords, twitch chats, go to events, so on so forth; with absolutely certainty, the majority of people thinks serral is the goat (and rightfully so.)
here on tl.net it's just the same 10 people posting back and forth to each other about maru, even in a gsl thread about reynor the whole thing becomes the main point of discussion because of these people, it's quite toxic. It's possible that relative to TL, Discord/Twitch have higher percentages of viewers believing Serral = GOAT. Do they constitute majorities? I honestly don't know. It is a known fact that the majority of the SC2 viewership considers Serral the GoaT. There is no point in denying reality. This does not mean, of course, that the majority is right, to the extent that there is right and wrong in this debate. Nor does it mean that the majority of people, including both fans of Serral and Maru, are well-informed or fair in their judgment. But there is no question that Serral is the majority GoaT. To give just two recent examples: Even here on TL, in Maru's own thread, a poll with n = 181 showed that 59% of the voters view Serral as the GoaT, whereas only 34% view Maru as the GoaT. The discrepancy is yet larger among the popular viewership. A poll carried out by Lowko on YouTube, with a stated n = 27K (can this be right?), shows that 76% of the voters see Serral as the GoaT, whereas only 17% voted for Maru. Furthermore, many public figures are on record calling Serral the GoaT. This includes both pros and literal SC2 world champions, like Byun and Reynor, and many popular casters. Once more, it is of course true that the majority opinion is not necessarily right. But there is absolutely no doubt about what the majority opinion is.
I can accept whatever a poll's result may be for what is - a popular vote showing the participants' views.
But bear in mind both your examples are for English speaking audiences, who are probably more likely to vote for Serral. If the poll had been available in Korean, Chinese, etc., are you "absolutely certain" that the result would be the same?
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Canada8989 Posts
On May 12 2024 00:58 goldensail wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2024 23:56 Antithesis wrote:On May 11 2024 10:22 goldensail wrote:On May 10 2024 18:36 Comedy wrote:
That's right it's a number I randomly made up that in my eyes represents the community at large; so not the TL.net posters (same 5 dudes that are super maru fan boys)
It could be a bit less, it could be a bit more, the number is arbitrary, fact of the matter is that the community, the people who watch streams, participate in discords, twitch chats, go to events, so on so forth; with absolutely certainty, the majority of people thinks serral is the goat (and rightfully so.)
here on tl.net it's just the same 10 people posting back and forth to each other about maru, even in a gsl thread about reynor the whole thing becomes the main point of discussion because of these people, it's quite toxic. It's possible that relative to TL, Discord/Twitch have higher percentages of viewers believing Serral = GOAT. Do they constitute majorities? I honestly don't know. It is a known fact that the majority of the SC2 viewership considers Serral the GoaT. There is no point in denying reality. This does not mean, of course, that the majority is right, to the extent that there is right and wrong in this debate. Nor does it mean that the majority of people, including both fans of Serral and Maru, are well-informed or fair in their judgment. But there is no question that Serral is the majority GoaT. To give just two recent examples: Even here on TL, in Maru's own thread, a poll with n = 181 showed that 59% of the voters view Serral as the GoaT, whereas only 34% view Maru as the GoaT. The discrepancy is yet larger among the popular viewership. A poll carried out by Lowko on YouTube, with a stated n = 27K (can this be right?), shows that 76% of the voters see Serral as the GoaT, whereas only 17% voted for Maru. Furthermore, many public figures are on record calling Serral the GoaT. This includes both pros and literal SC2 world champions, like Byun and Reynor, and many popular casters. Once more, it is of course true that the majority opinion is not necessarily right. But there is absolutely no doubt about what the majority opinion is. I can accept whatever a poll's result may be for what is - a popular vote showing the participants' views. But bear in mind both your examples are for English speaking audiences, who are probably more likely to vote for Serral. If the poll had been available in Korean, Chinese, etc., are you "absolutely certain" that the result would be the same?
I mean, come on. Saying that there are communities out there that we don't really interact with who may or may not have a different opinion on the question isn't really a response. It's basically asking for impossible evidence. There are a good number of indications that point to Serral being considered the GoaT by a majority of people in our SC2 world, some of which Antithesis produces.
Anyway, just because a subjective opinion is popular, doesn't mean you have to agree with it.
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On May 12 2024 02:03 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2024 00:58 goldensail wrote:On May 11 2024 23:56 Antithesis wrote:On May 11 2024 10:22 goldensail wrote:On May 10 2024 18:36 Comedy wrote:
That's right it's a number I randomly made up that in my eyes represents the community at large; so not the TL.net posters (same 5 dudes that are super maru fan boys)
It could be a bit less, it could be a bit more, the number is arbitrary, fact of the matter is that the community, the people who watch streams, participate in discords, twitch chats, go to events, so on so forth; with absolutely certainty, the majority of people thinks serral is the goat (and rightfully so.)
here on tl.net it's just the same 10 people posting back and forth to each other about maru, even in a gsl thread about reynor the whole thing becomes the main point of discussion because of these people, it's quite toxic. It's possible that relative to TL, Discord/Twitch have higher percentages of viewers believing Serral = GOAT. Do they constitute majorities? I honestly don't know. It is a known fact that the majority of the SC2 viewership considers Serral the GoaT. There is no point in denying reality. This does not mean, of course, that the majority is right, to the extent that there is right and wrong in this debate. Nor does it mean that the majority of people, including both fans of Serral and Maru, are well-informed or fair in their judgment. But there is no question that Serral is the majority GoaT. To give just two recent examples: Even here on TL, in Maru's own thread, a poll with n = 181 showed that 59% of the voters view Serral as the GoaT, whereas only 34% view Maru as the GoaT. The discrepancy is yet larger among the popular viewership. A poll carried out by Lowko on YouTube, with a stated n = 27K (can this be right?), shows that 76% of the voters see Serral as the GoaT, whereas only 17% voted for Maru. Furthermore, many public figures are on record calling Serral the GoaT. This includes both pros and literal SC2 world champions, like Byun and Reynor, and many popular casters. Once more, it is of course true that the majority opinion is not necessarily right. But there is absolutely no doubt about what the majority opinion is. I can accept whatever a poll's result may be for what is - a popular vote showing the participants' views. But bear in mind both your examples are for English speaking audiences, who are probably more likely to vote for Serral. If the poll had been available in Korean, Chinese, etc., are you "absolutely certain" that the result would be the same? I mean, come on. Saying that there are communities out there that we don't really interact with who may or may not have a different opinion on the question isn't really a response. It's basically asking for impossible evidence. There are a good number of indications that point to Serral being considered the GoaT by a majority of people in our SC2 world, some of which Antithesis produces. Anyway, just because a subjective opinion is popular, you don't have to agree with it.
Let me spell out what I'm debating - from previous posts:
"it's always the usual suspects pushing their narrative of Maru > Serral even when 90% of the community doesn't feel that way" and "It is a known fact that the majority of the SC2 viewership considers Serral the GoaT".
I'm saying I haven't seen evidence that's the case. If the statements had said something like "over 50% of the English-speaking audience consider Serral to be the GOAT based on recent polls", I would've been fine. I can handle whatever a poll produces, as long as the results are presented/interpreted fairly.
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On May 11 2024 23:56 Antithesis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2024 10:22 goldensail wrote:On May 10 2024 18:36 Comedy wrote:
That's right it's a number I randomly made up that in my eyes represents the community at large; so not the TL.net posters (same 5 dudes that are super maru fan boys)
It could be a bit less, it could be a bit more, the number is arbitrary, fact of the matter is that the community, the people who watch streams, participate in discords, twitch chats, go to events, so on so forth; with absolutely certainty, the majority of people thinks serral is the goat (and rightfully so.)
here on tl.net it's just the same 10 people posting back and forth to each other about maru, even in a gsl thread about reynor the whole thing becomes the main point of discussion because of these people, it's quite toxic. It's possible that relative to TL, Discord/Twitch have higher percentages of viewers believing Serral = GOAT. Do they constitute majorities? I honestly don't know. It is a known fact that the majority of the SC2 viewership considers Serral the GoaT. There is no point in denying reality. This does not mean, of course, that the majority is right, to the extent that there is right and wrong in this debate. Nor does it mean that the majority of people, including both fans of Serral and Maru, are well-informed or fair in their judgment. But there is no question that Serral is the majority GoaT. To give just two recent examples: Even here on TL, in Maru's own thread, a poll with n = 181 showed that 59% of the voters view Serral as the GoaT, whereas only 34% view Maru as the GoaT. The discrepancy is yet larger among the popular viewership. A poll carried out by Lowko on YouTube, with a stated n = 27K (can this be right?), shows that 76% of the voters see Serral as the GoaT, whereas only 17% voted for Maru. Furthermore, many public figures are on record calling Serral the GoaT. This includes both pros and literal SC2 world champions, like Byun and Reynor, and many popular casters. Once more, it is of course true that the majority opinion is not necessarily right. But there is absolutely no doubt about what the majority opinion is.
When did byun call serral the goat? Popular casters were calling serral the goat since 2019 so that means little. Byun calling him the goat is more impactful, but this is the first time I hear this
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On May 12 2024 02:03 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2024 00:58 goldensail wrote:On May 11 2024 23:56 Antithesis wrote:On May 11 2024 10:22 goldensail wrote:On May 10 2024 18:36 Comedy wrote:
That's right it's a number I randomly made up that in my eyes represents the community at large; so not the TL.net posters (same 5 dudes that are super maru fan boys)
It could be a bit less, it could be a bit more, the number is arbitrary, fact of the matter is that the community, the people who watch streams, participate in discords, twitch chats, go to events, so on so forth; with absolutely certainty, the majority of people thinks serral is the goat (and rightfully so.)
here on tl.net it's just the same 10 people posting back and forth to each other about maru, even in a gsl thread about reynor the whole thing becomes the main point of discussion because of these people, it's quite toxic. It's possible that relative to TL, Discord/Twitch have higher percentages of viewers believing Serral = GOAT. Do they constitute majorities? I honestly don't know. It is a known fact that the majority of the SC2 viewership considers Serral the GoaT. There is no point in denying reality. This does not mean, of course, that the majority is right, to the extent that there is right and wrong in this debate. Nor does it mean that the majority of people, including both fans of Serral and Maru, are well-informed or fair in their judgment. But there is no question that Serral is the majority GoaT. To give just two recent examples: Even here on TL, in Maru's own thread, a poll with n = 181 showed that 59% of the voters view Serral as the GoaT, whereas only 34% view Maru as the GoaT. The discrepancy is yet larger among the popular viewership. A poll carried out by Lowko on YouTube, with a stated n = 27K (can this be right?), shows that 76% of the voters see Serral as the GoaT, whereas only 17% voted for Maru. Furthermore, many public figures are on record calling Serral the GoaT. This includes both pros and literal SC2 world champions, like Byun and Reynor, and many popular casters. Once more, it is of course true that the majority opinion is not necessarily right. But there is absolutely no doubt about what the majority opinion is. I can accept whatever a poll's result may be for what is - a popular vote showing the participants' views. But bear in mind both your examples are for English speaking audiences, who are probably more likely to vote for Serral. If the poll had been available in Korean, Chinese, etc., are you "absolutely certain" that the result would be the same? I mean, come on. Saying that there are communities out there that we don't really interact with who may or may not have a different opinion on the question isn't really a response. It's basically asking for impossible evidence. There are a good number of indications that point to Serral being considered the GoaT by a majority of people in our SC2 world, some of which Antithesis produces. Anyway, just because a subjective opinion is popular, doesn't mean you have to agree with it.
Just because we don't interact with them doesn't mean their opinion doesn't matter. If right-wing people only interact with other right-wing people and therefore assume everyone shares their views, it still doesn't translate to the country as a whole.
Fact is that english-speaking community is likely to be biased towards foreigners due to casters always hyping them up etc.
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France12904 Posts
On May 12 2024 02:28 lokol4890 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2024 23:56 Antithesis wrote:On May 11 2024 10:22 goldensail wrote:On May 10 2024 18:36 Comedy wrote:
That's right it's a number I randomly made up that in my eyes represents the community at large; so not the TL.net posters (same 5 dudes that are super maru fan boys)
It could be a bit less, it could be a bit more, the number is arbitrary, fact of the matter is that the community, the people who watch streams, participate in discords, twitch chats, go to events, so on so forth; with absolutely certainty, the majority of people thinks serral is the goat (and rightfully so.)
here on tl.net it's just the same 10 people posting back and forth to each other about maru, even in a gsl thread about reynor the whole thing becomes the main point of discussion because of these people, it's quite toxic. It's possible that relative to TL, Discord/Twitch have higher percentages of viewers believing Serral = GOAT. Do they constitute majorities? I honestly don't know. It is a known fact that the majority of the SC2 viewership considers Serral the GoaT. There is no point in denying reality. This does not mean, of course, that the majority is right, to the extent that there is right and wrong in this debate. Nor does it mean that the majority of people, including both fans of Serral and Maru, are well-informed or fair in their judgment. But there is no question that Serral is the majority GoaT. To give just two recent examples: Even here on TL, in Maru's own thread, a poll with n = 181 showed that 59% of the voters view Serral as the GoaT, whereas only 34% view Maru as the GoaT. The discrepancy is yet larger among the popular viewership. A poll carried out by Lowko on YouTube, with a stated n = 27K (can this be right?), shows that 76% of the voters see Serral as the GoaT, whereas only 17% voted for Maru. Furthermore, many public figures are on record calling Serral the GoaT. This includes both pros and literal SC2 world champions, like Byun and Reynor, and many popular casters. Once more, it is of course true that the majority opinion is not necessarily right. But there is absolutely no doubt about what the majority opinion is. When did byun call serral the goat? Popular casters were calling serral the goat since 2019 so that means little. Byun calling him the goat is more impactful, but this is the first time I hear this
Yeah I am very curious about this, I have never heard such a thing.
As for Reynor, he is particularly biased against Maru so I wouldn’t particularly value what he has to say about who the goat is, at least not more than any other foreigner. Even if he won high latency world championships.
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On May 12 2024 00:58 goldensail wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2024 23:56 Antithesis wrote:On May 11 2024 10:22 goldensail wrote:On May 10 2024 18:36 Comedy wrote:
That's right it's a number I randomly made up that in my eyes represents the community at large; so not the TL.net posters (same 5 dudes that are super maru fan boys)
It could be a bit less, it could be a bit more, the number is arbitrary, fact of the matter is that the community, the people who watch streams, participate in discords, twitch chats, go to events, so on so forth; with absolutely certainty, the majority of people thinks serral is the goat (and rightfully so.)
here on tl.net it's just the same 10 people posting back and forth to each other about maru, even in a gsl thread about reynor the whole thing becomes the main point of discussion because of these people, it's quite toxic. It's possible that relative to TL, Discord/Twitch have higher percentages of viewers believing Serral = GOAT. Do they constitute majorities? I honestly don't know. It is a known fact that the majority of the SC2 viewership considers Serral the GoaT. There is no point in denying reality. This does not mean, of course, that the majority is right, to the extent that there is right and wrong in this debate. Nor does it mean that the majority of people, including both fans of Serral and Maru, are well-informed or fair in their judgment. But there is no question that Serral is the majority GoaT. To give just two recent examples: Even here on TL, in Maru's own thread, a poll with n = 181 showed that 59% of the voters view Serral as the GoaT, whereas only 34% view Maru as the GoaT. The discrepancy is yet larger among the popular viewership. A poll carried out by Lowko on YouTube, with a stated n = 27K (can this be right?), shows that 76% of the voters see Serral as the GoaT, whereas only 17% voted for Maru. Furthermore, many public figures are on record calling Serral the GoaT. This includes both pros and literal SC2 world champions, like Byun and Reynor, and many popular casters. Once more, it is of course true that the majority opinion is not necessarily right. But there is absolutely no doubt about what the majority opinion is. I can accept whatever a poll's result may be for what is - a popular vote showing the participants' views. But bear in mind both your examples are for English speaking audiences, who are probably more likely to vote for Serral. If the poll had been available in Korean, Chinese, etc., are you "absolutely certain" that the result would be the same?
On May 12 2024 02:58 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2024 02:03 Nakajin wrote:On May 12 2024 00:58 goldensail wrote:On May 11 2024 23:56 Antithesis wrote:On May 11 2024 10:22 goldensail wrote:On May 10 2024 18:36 Comedy wrote:
That's right it's a number I randomly made up that in my eyes represents the community at large; so not the TL.net posters (same 5 dudes that are super maru fan boys)
It could be a bit less, it could be a bit more, the number is arbitrary, fact of the matter is that the community, the people who watch streams, participate in discords, twitch chats, go to events, so on so forth; with absolutely certainty, the majority of people thinks serral is the goat (and rightfully so.)
here on tl.net it's just the same 10 people posting back and forth to each other about maru, even in a gsl thread about reynor the whole thing becomes the main point of discussion because of these people, it's quite toxic. It's possible that relative to TL, Discord/Twitch have higher percentages of viewers believing Serral = GOAT. Do they constitute majorities? I honestly don't know. It is a known fact that the majority of the SC2 viewership considers Serral the GoaT. There is no point in denying reality. This does not mean, of course, that the majority is right, to the extent that there is right and wrong in this debate. Nor does it mean that the majority of people, including both fans of Serral and Maru, are well-informed or fair in their judgment. But there is no question that Serral is the majority GoaT. To give just two recent examples: Even here on TL, in Maru's own thread, a poll with n = 181 showed that 59% of the voters view Serral as the GoaT, whereas only 34% view Maru as the GoaT. The discrepancy is yet larger among the popular viewership. A poll carried out by Lowko on YouTube, with a stated n = 27K (can this be right?), shows that 76% of the voters see Serral as the GoaT, whereas only 17% voted for Maru. Furthermore, many public figures are on record calling Serral the GoaT. This includes both pros and literal SC2 world champions, like Byun and Reynor, and many popular casters. Once more, it is of course true that the majority opinion is not necessarily right. But there is absolutely no doubt about what the majority opinion is. I can accept whatever a poll's result may be for what is - a popular vote showing the participants' views. But bear in mind both your examples are for English speaking audiences, who are probably more likely to vote for Serral. If the poll had been available in Korean, Chinese, etc., are you "absolutely certain" that the result would be the same? I mean, come on. Saying that there are communities out there that we don't really interact with who may or may not have a different opinion on the question isn't really a response. It's basically asking for impossible evidence. There are a good number of indications that point to Serral being considered the GoaT by a majority of people in our SC2 world, some of which Antithesis produces. Anyway, just because a subjective opinion is popular, doesn't mean you have to agree with it. Fact is that english-speaking community is likely to be biased towards foreigners due to casters always hyping them up etc.
I have cited two recent international polls with considerable sample sizes, showing that the majority considers Serral the GoaT. It's funny that now that the original point has been demonstrated, the immediate reaction is to move the goalpost and to suddenly make it about specific sub-communities.
If you are of the conviction that the Chinese and the Korean communities are substantially different from the rest of the international community in their perceptions of the GoaT, then how about you provide evidence for your claims?
From what I've read, I'd be surprised if there were significant differences. To cite evidence, unlike you: SCBoy, the flagship production team of the Chinese community (the team behind WTL and Master's Coliseum), has literally and publicly called Serral the GoaT on at least three occasions, namely here, here, and here. But again, you are welcome to produce evidence to the contrary. Just don't deny everything that conflicts with your pre-existing beliefs.
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On May 12 2024 03:26 Antithesis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2024 00:58 goldensail wrote:On May 11 2024 23:56 Antithesis wrote:On May 11 2024 10:22 goldensail wrote:On May 10 2024 18:36 Comedy wrote:
That's right it's a number I randomly made up that in my eyes represents the community at large; so not the TL.net posters (same 5 dudes that are super maru fan boys)
It could be a bit less, it could be a bit more, the number is arbitrary, fact of the matter is that the community, the people who watch streams, participate in discords, twitch chats, go to events, so on so forth; with absolutely certainty, the majority of people thinks serral is the goat (and rightfully so.)
here on tl.net it's just the same 10 people posting back and forth to each other about maru, even in a gsl thread about reynor the whole thing becomes the main point of discussion because of these people, it's quite toxic. It's possible that relative to TL, Discord/Twitch have higher percentages of viewers believing Serral = GOAT. Do they constitute majorities? I honestly don't know. It is a known fact that the majority of the SC2 viewership considers Serral the GoaT. There is no point in denying reality. This does not mean, of course, that the majority is right, to the extent that there is right and wrong in this debate. Nor does it mean that the majority of people, including both fans of Serral and Maru, are well-informed or fair in their judgment. But there is no question that Serral is the majority GoaT. To give just two recent examples: Even here on TL, in Maru's own thread, a poll with n = 181 showed that 59% of the voters view Serral as the GoaT, whereas only 34% view Maru as the GoaT. The discrepancy is yet larger among the popular viewership. A poll carried out by Lowko on YouTube, with a stated n = 27K (can this be right?), shows that 76% of the voters see Serral as the GoaT, whereas only 17% voted for Maru. Furthermore, many public figures are on record calling Serral the GoaT. This includes both pros and literal SC2 world champions, like Byun and Reynor, and many popular casters. Once more, it is of course true that the majority opinion is not necessarily right. But there is absolutely no doubt about what the majority opinion is. I can accept whatever a poll's result may be for what is - a popular vote showing the participants' views. But bear in mind both your examples are for English speaking audiences, who are probably more likely to vote for Serral. If the poll had been available in Korean, Chinese, etc., are you "absolutely certain" that the result would be the same? Show nested quote +On May 12 2024 02:58 Charoisaur wrote:On May 12 2024 02:03 Nakajin wrote:On May 12 2024 00:58 goldensail wrote:On May 11 2024 23:56 Antithesis wrote:On May 11 2024 10:22 goldensail wrote:On May 10 2024 18:36 Comedy wrote:
That's right it's a number I randomly made up that in my eyes represents the community at large; so not the TL.net posters (same 5 dudes that are super maru fan boys)
It could be a bit less, it could be a bit more, the number is arbitrary, fact of the matter is that the community, the people who watch streams, participate in discords, twitch chats, go to events, so on so forth; with absolutely certainty, the majority of people thinks serral is the goat (and rightfully so.)
here on tl.net it's just the same 10 people posting back and forth to each other about maru, even in a gsl thread about reynor the whole thing becomes the main point of discussion because of these people, it's quite toxic. It's possible that relative to TL, Discord/Twitch have higher percentages of viewers believing Serral = GOAT. Do they constitute majorities? I honestly don't know. It is a known fact that the majority of the SC2 viewership considers Serral the GoaT. There is no point in denying reality. This does not mean, of course, that the majority is right, to the extent that there is right and wrong in this debate. Nor does it mean that the majority of people, including both fans of Serral and Maru, are well-informed or fair in their judgment. But there is no question that Serral is the majority GoaT. To give just two recent examples: Even here on TL, in Maru's own thread, a poll with n = 181 showed that 59% of the voters view Serral as the GoaT, whereas only 34% view Maru as the GoaT. The discrepancy is yet larger among the popular viewership. A poll carried out by Lowko on YouTube, with a stated n = 27K (can this be right?), shows that 76% of the voters see Serral as the GoaT, whereas only 17% voted for Maru. Furthermore, many public figures are on record calling Serral the GoaT. This includes both pros and literal SC2 world champions, like Byun and Reynor, and many popular casters. Once more, it is of course true that the majority opinion is not necessarily right. But there is absolutely no doubt about what the majority opinion is. I can accept whatever a poll's result may be for what is - a popular vote showing the participants' views. But bear in mind both your examples are for English speaking audiences, who are probably more likely to vote for Serral. If the poll had been available in Korean, Chinese, etc., are you "absolutely certain" that the result would be the same? I mean, come on. Saying that there are communities out there that we don't really interact with who may or may not have a different opinion on the question isn't really a response. It's basically asking for impossible evidence. There are a good number of indications that point to Serral being considered the GoaT by a majority of people in our SC2 world, some of which Antithesis produces. Anyway, just because a subjective opinion is popular, doesn't mean you have to agree with it. Fact is that english-speaking community is likely to be biased towards foreigners due to casters always hyping them up etc. I have cited two recent international polls with considerable sample sizes, showing that the majority considers Serral the GoaT. It's funny that now that the original point has been demonstrated, the immediate reaction is to move the goalpost and to suddenly make it about specific sub-communities. If you are of the conviction that the Chinese and the Korean communities are substantially different from the rest of the international community in their perceptions of the GoaT, then how about you provide evidence for your claims? From what I've read, I'd be surprised if there were significant differences. To cite evidence, unlike you: SCBoy, the flagship production team of the Chinese community (the team behind WTL and Master's Coliseum), has literally and publicly called Serral the GoaT on at least three occasions, namely here, here, and here. But again, you are welcome to produce evidence to the contrary. Just don't deny everything that conflicts with your pre-existing beliefs.
If you're familiar with logical reasoning - I never claimed with the inclusion of non-English speaking audiences the poll results will be different/Maru-favored. I DID question the validity of the conviction that the majority of the SC2 community consider Serral to be the GOAT based on a couple of casual English-language polls. To support my questioning, I gave an example of why that might not be the case e.g. if the polling included non-English audiences (but frankly there could be others e.g. what was the race composition of the participants?). The burden of proof is on my opponents in this debate for making the claim, not me.
Finally, did you know both SCBoys (Huang and Sun) are Zergs?
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Canada8989 Posts
On May 12 2024 03:23 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2024 02:28 lokol4890 wrote:On May 11 2024 23:56 Antithesis wrote:On May 11 2024 10:22 goldensail wrote:On May 10 2024 18:36 Comedy wrote:
That's right it's a number I randomly made up that in my eyes represents the community at large; so not the TL.net posters (same 5 dudes that are super maru fan boys)
It could be a bit less, it could be a bit more, the number is arbitrary, fact of the matter is that the community, the people who watch streams, participate in discords, twitch chats, go to events, so on so forth; with absolutely certainty, the majority of people thinks serral is the goat (and rightfully so.)
here on tl.net it's just the same 10 people posting back and forth to each other about maru, even in a gsl thread about reynor the whole thing becomes the main point of discussion because of these people, it's quite toxic. It's possible that relative to TL, Discord/Twitch have higher percentages of viewers believing Serral = GOAT. Do they constitute majorities? I honestly don't know. It is a known fact that the majority of the SC2 viewership considers Serral the GoaT. There is no point in denying reality. This does not mean, of course, that the majority is right, to the extent that there is right and wrong in this debate. Nor does it mean that the majority of people, including both fans of Serral and Maru, are well-informed or fair in their judgment. But there is no question that Serral is the majority GoaT. To give just two recent examples: Even here on TL, in Maru's own thread, a poll with n = 181 showed that 59% of the voters view Serral as the GoaT, whereas only 34% view Maru as the GoaT. The discrepancy is yet larger among the popular viewership. A poll carried out by Lowko on YouTube, with a stated n = 27K (can this be right?), shows that 76% of the voters see Serral as the GoaT, whereas only 17% voted for Maru. Furthermore, many public figures are on record calling Serral the GoaT. This includes both pros and literal SC2 world champions, like Byun and Reynor, and many popular casters. Once more, it is of course true that the majority opinion is not necessarily right. But there is absolutely no doubt about what the majority opinion is. When did byun call serral the goat? Popular casters were calling serral the goat since 2019 so that means little. Byun calling him the goat is more impactful, but this is the first time I hear this Yeah I am very curious about this, I have never heard such a thing. As for Reynor, he is particularly biased against Maru so I wouldn’t particularly value what he has to say about who the goat is, at least not more than any other foreigner. Even if he won high latency world championships.
They did a video a couple of Katowice ago (or maybe it was a season finale?) where they asked who was the GOAT, a good number of Korean said it was Serral, but I can't say I remember ByuN in particular. Some people kicked it out of bound, I think Maru said it was Rogue and Dark and I think Heromarine said Maru.
Also, I have no idea where the jab against Reynor come from, seems kind of insulting for nothing tbh.
On May 12 2024 08:39 goldensail wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2024 03:26 Antithesis wrote:On May 12 2024 00:58 goldensail wrote:On May 11 2024 23:56 Antithesis wrote:On May 11 2024 10:22 goldensail wrote:On May 10 2024 18:36 Comedy wrote:
That's right it's a number I randomly made up that in my eyes represents the community at large; so not the TL.net posters (same 5 dudes that are super maru fan boys)
It could be a bit less, it could be a bit more, the number is arbitrary, fact of the matter is that the community, the people who watch streams, participate in discords, twitch chats, go to events, so on so forth; with absolutely certainty, the majority of people thinks serral is the goat (and rightfully so.)
here on tl.net it's just the same 10 people posting back and forth to each other about maru, even in a gsl thread about reynor the whole thing becomes the main point of discussion because of these people, it's quite toxic. It's possible that relative to TL, Discord/Twitch have higher percentages of viewers believing Serral = GOAT. Do they constitute majorities? I honestly don't know. It is a known fact that the majority of the SC2 viewership considers Serral the GoaT. There is no point in denying reality. This does not mean, of course, that the majority is right, to the extent that there is right and wrong in this debate. Nor does it mean that the majority of people, including both fans of Serral and Maru, are well-informed or fair in their judgment. But there is no question that Serral is the majority GoaT. To give just two recent examples: Even here on TL, in Maru's own thread, a poll with n = 181 showed that 59% of the voters view Serral as the GoaT, whereas only 34% view Maru as the GoaT. The discrepancy is yet larger among the popular viewership. A poll carried out by Lowko on YouTube, with a stated n = 27K (can this be right?), shows that 76% of the voters see Serral as the GoaT, whereas only 17% voted for Maru. Furthermore, many public figures are on record calling Serral the GoaT. This includes both pros and literal SC2 world champions, like Byun and Reynor, and many popular casters. Once more, it is of course true that the majority opinion is not necessarily right. But there is absolutely no doubt about what the majority opinion is. I can accept whatever a poll's result may be for what is - a popular vote showing the participants' views. But bear in mind both your examples are for English speaking audiences, who are probably more likely to vote for Serral. If the poll had been available in Korean, Chinese, etc., are you "absolutely certain" that the result would be the same? On May 12 2024 02:58 Charoisaur wrote:On May 12 2024 02:03 Nakajin wrote:On May 12 2024 00:58 goldensail wrote:On May 11 2024 23:56 Antithesis wrote:On May 11 2024 10:22 goldensail wrote:On May 10 2024 18:36 Comedy wrote:
That's right it's a number I randomly made up that in my eyes represents the community at large; so not the TL.net posters (same 5 dudes that are super maru fan boys)
It could be a bit less, it could be a bit more, the number is arbitrary, fact of the matter is that the community, the people who watch streams, participate in discords, twitch chats, go to events, so on so forth; with absolutely certainty, the majority of people thinks serral is the goat (and rightfully so.)
here on tl.net it's just the same 10 people posting back and forth to each other about maru, even in a gsl thread about reynor the whole thing becomes the main point of discussion because of these people, it's quite toxic. It's possible that relative to TL, Discord/Twitch have higher percentages of viewers believing Serral = GOAT. Do they constitute majorities? I honestly don't know. It is a known fact that the majority of the SC2 viewership considers Serral the GoaT. There is no point in denying reality. This does not mean, of course, that the majority is right, to the extent that there is right and wrong in this debate. Nor does it mean that the majority of people, including both fans of Serral and Maru, are well-informed or fair in their judgment. But there is no question that Serral is the majority GoaT. To give just two recent examples: Even here on TL, in Maru's own thread, a poll with n = 181 showed that 59% of the voters view Serral as the GoaT, whereas only 34% view Maru as the GoaT. The discrepancy is yet larger among the popular viewership. A poll carried out by Lowko on YouTube, with a stated n = 27K (can this be right?), shows that 76% of the voters see Serral as the GoaT, whereas only 17% voted for Maru. Furthermore, many public figures are on record calling Serral the GoaT. This includes both pros and literal SC2 world champions, like Byun and Reynor, and many popular casters. Once more, it is of course true that the majority opinion is not necessarily right. But there is absolutely no doubt about what the majority opinion is. I can accept whatever a poll's result may be for what is - a popular vote showing the participants' views. But bear in mind both your examples are for English speaking audiences, who are probably more likely to vote for Serral. If the poll had been available in Korean, Chinese, etc., are you "absolutely certain" that the result would be the same? I mean, come on. Saying that there are communities out there that we don't really interact with who may or may not have a different opinion on the question isn't really a response. It's basically asking for impossible evidence. There are a good number of indications that point to Serral being considered the GoaT by a majority of people in our SC2 world, some of which Antithesis produces. Anyway, just because a subjective opinion is popular, doesn't mean you have to agree with it. Fact is that english-speaking community is likely to be biased towards foreigners due to casters always hyping them up etc. I have cited two recent international polls with considerable sample sizes, showing that the majority considers Serral the GoaT. It's funny that now that the original point has been demonstrated, the immediate reaction is to move the goalpost and to suddenly make it about specific sub-communities. If you are of the conviction that the Chinese and the Korean communities are substantially different from the rest of the international community in their perceptions of the GoaT, then how about you provide evidence for your claims? From what I've read, I'd be surprised if there were significant differences. To cite evidence, unlike you: SCBoy, the flagship production team of the Chinese community (the team behind WTL and Master's Coliseum), has literally and publicly called Serral the GoaT on at least three occasions, namely here, here, and here. But again, you are welcome to produce evidence to the contrary. Just don't deny everything that conflicts with your pre-existing beliefs. If you're familiar with logical reasoning - I never claimed with the inclusion of non-English speaking audiences the poll results will be different/Maru-favored. I DID question the validity of the conviction that the majority of the SC2 community consider Serral to be the GOAT based on a couple of casual English-language polls. To support my questioning, I gave an example of why that might not be the case e.g. if the polling included non-English audiences (but frankly there could be others e.g. what was the race composition of the participants?). The burden of proof is on my opponents in this debate for making the claim, not me. Finally, did you know both SCBoys (Huang and Sun) are Zergs?
The proof you ask for obviously dosen't exit, and even if someone would try earnestly to create it, it's not even clear they could because there seems to exist some intrinsic bias that renders some opinions questionables.
So we can either sa have no way to know anything (In which case I invite you to disprove that the majority of the SC2 community thinks Pigbaby is the SC2 GOAT), or we can use the pieces of information we have at hand and infer that they reasonably inform us of reality, which is a perfectly reasonable thought process.
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On May 12 2024 09:37 Nakajin wrote:
They did a video a couple of Katowice ago (or maybe it was a season finale?) where they asked who was the GOAT, a good number of Korean said it was Serral, but I can't say I remember ByuN in particular. Some people kicked it out of bound, I think Maru said it was Rogue and Dark and I think Heromarine said Maru.
Yeah, ByuN, like some other Koreans, have expressed their view of Serral as the GoaT in pre-show events and other interviews over the years. I think ByuN's most recent reference to this was his bowing to Serral (in jest, of course) on stage at Katowice 2024.
On May 12 2024 08:39 goldensail wrote:
If you're familiar with logical reasoning - I never claimed with the inclusion of non-English speaking audiences the poll results will be different/Maru-favored. I DID question the validity of the conviction that the majority of the SC2 community consider Serral to be the GOAT based on a couple of casual English-language polls. To support my questioning, I gave an example of why that might not be the case e.g. if the polling included non-English audiences (but frankly there could be others e.g. what was the race composition of the participants?). The burden of proof is on my opponents in this debate for making the claim, not me.
Everyone knows that every single conclusion ever drawn from any limited sample can be questioned. This is not a profound insight. There is also the chance, however miniscule, that all persons on earth, except those who have participated in the polls, think that Harstem is the GoaT. And yes, there is also the chance that the Chinese and the Korean communities have views totally opposite to that of the international community. If this is your point, we can all happily agree on that. But from the evidence available, there is no reason to suppose it is the case. Again, feel free to provide statistics to the contary if you know any.
On May 12 2024 08:39 goldensail wrote:
Finally, did you know both SCBoys (Huang and Sun) are Zergs?
Yes, every single piece of evidence can be nitpicked to death and viewed as the result of some inherent bias. Did you know that Zerg is the least-played race, so Serral is actually disadvantaged in polls? But this is silly, and if only one side provides any evidence at all, the whole discussion is moot anyway.
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On May 12 2024 10:34 Antithesis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2024 09:37 Nakajin wrote:
They did a video a couple of Katowice ago (or maybe it was a season finale?) where they asked who was the GOAT, a good number of Korean said it was Serral, but I can't say I remember ByuN in particular. Some people kicked it out of bound, I think Maru said it was Rogue and Dark and I think Heromarine said Maru. Yeah, ByuN, like some other Koreans, have expressed their view of Serral as the GoaT in pre-show events and other interviews over the years. I think ByuN's most recent reference to this was his bowing to Serral (in jest, of course) on stage at Katowice 2024. Show nested quote +On May 12 2024 08:39 goldensail wrote:
If you're familiar with logical reasoning - I never claimed with the inclusion of non-English speaking audiences the poll results will be different/Maru-favored. I DID question the validity of the conviction that the majority of the SC2 community consider Serral to be the GOAT based on a couple of casual English-language polls. To support my questioning, I gave an example of why that might not be the case e.g. if the polling included non-English audiences (but frankly there could be others e.g. what was the race composition of the participants?). The burden of proof is on my opponents in this debate for making the claim, not me. Everyone knows that every single conclusion ever drawn from any limited sample can be questioned. This is not a profound insight. There is also the chance, however miniscule, that all persons on earth, except those who have participated in the polls, think that Harstem is the GoaT. And yes, there is also the chance that the Chinese and the Korean communities have views totally opposite to that of the international community. If this is your point, we can all happily agree on that. But from the evidence available, there is no reason to suppose it is the case. Again, feel free to provide statistics to the contary if you know any. Show nested quote +On May 12 2024 08:39 goldensail wrote:
Finally, did you know both SCBoys (Huang and Sun) are Zergs? Yes, every single piece of evidence can be nitpicked to death and viewed as the result of some inherent bias. Did you know that Zerg is the least-played race, so Serral is actually disadvantaged in polls? But this is silly, and if only one side provides any evidence at all, the whole discussion is moot anyway.
I can't seem to remember a single one where byun said this. Najakin mentioned there was an iem interview out there proving that some koreans said it, but I can't find that either. Do you have any links at hand so I can see it?
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France12904 Posts
On May 12 2024 09:37 Nakajin wrote:
They did a video a couple of Katowice ago (or maybe it was a season finale?) where they asked who was the GOAT, a good number of Korean said it was Serral, but I can't say I remember ByuN in particular. Some people kicked it out of bound, I think Maru said it was Rogue and Dark and I think Heromarine said Maru.
Also, I have no idea where the jab against Reynor come from, seems kind of insulting for nothing tbh.
Yeah I am not surprised Maru said Rogue or Dark either, that’s why no matter the achievements of players you can’t really take their opinion on such a subject very seriously, since they are pro players competing against each other.
Maru said in one of his WCS signature series that he didn’t understand back then why Rogue had that much success (in LotV) while he on the other hand struggled to get meaningful results. Since he looked up to Rogue for so long, it was his teammate, he helped him practice etc. he is biased towards Rogue like Artosis is.
On the other hand, ByuN has been in a foreign team since forever so he is biased towards the foreigner opinion (aka Serral).
Also there is no jab against Reynor? His WCs were high latency: Katowice 2021 was online, and gamers8 the servers were far from the venue.
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Canada8989 Posts
On May 12 2024 18:30 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2024 09:37 Nakajin wrote:
They did a video a couple of Katowice ago (or maybe it was a season finale?) where they asked who was the GOAT, a good number of Korean said it was Serral, but I can't say I remember ByuN in particular. Some people kicked it out of bound, I think Maru said it was Rogue and Dark and I think Heromarine said Maru.
Also, I have no idea where the jab against Reynor come from, seems kind of insulting for nothing tbh. Yeah I am not surprised Maru said Rogue or Dark either, that’s why no matter the achievements of players you can’t really take their opinion on such a subject very seriously, since they are pro players competing against each other. Maru said in one of his WCS signature series that he didn’t understand back then why Rogue had that much success (in LotV) while he on the other hand struggled to get meaningful results. Since he looked up to Rogue for so long, it was his teammate, he helped him practice etc. he is biased towards Rogue like Artosis is. On the other hand, ByuN has been in a foreign team since forever so he is biased towards the foreigner opinion (aka Serral). Also there is no jab against Reynor? His WCs were high latency: Katowice 2021 was online, and gamers8 the servers were far from the venue.
Come on man, it's pretty clearly a way to say that those tournaments have less competitive integrity. I don't see why we should try to put down players like that.
Anyway, I do agree that who pro players think the GOAT doesn't really matter outside of just general interest, we're all big boys and girls who know enough about SC2 to have our own opinion, there's no right one anyway.
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Serral Fan A: 90% of people hate tofu. Yeah I made that up, but that's definitely the case.
Serral Fan B: here's a poll, 60% of people hate tofu, so absolutely no doubt
Me: but you only polled 100 Americans. There are also Asians
Serral Fan C: come on. Saying that there are communities out there that we don't really interact with who may or may not have a different opinion is not a response
Me: if your conclusion is majority of Americans hate tofu I would've been fine
Serral Fan B: you're moving the goal post. If you believe Asians are different show the stats. PFChang hates tofu and he owns a restaurant chain you know.
Me: guys you made a claim so burden of proof is on you. You know PFChang is allergic to soybean right?
Serral Fan B: you can always nitpick
Serral Fan C: The proof you ask for obviously dosen't exist
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On May 12 2024 19:43 goldensail wrote:
Serral Fan A: 90% of people hate tofu. Yeah I made that up, but that's definitely the case.
Serral Fan B: here's a poll, 60% of people hate tofu, so absolutely no doubt
Me: but you only polled 100 Americans. There are also Asians
Serral Fan C: come on. Saying that there are communities out there that we don't really interact with who may or may not have a different opinion is not a response
Me: if your conclusion is majority of Americans hate tofu I would've been fine
Serral Fan B: you're moving the goal post. If you believe Asians are different show the stats. PFChang hates tofu and he owns a restaurant chain you know.
Me: guys you made a claim so burden of proof is on you. You know PFChang is allergic to soybean right?
Serral Fan B: you can always nitpick
Serral Fan C: The proof you ask for obviously dosen't exist
Even in your hypothetical you have more people who consider Serral to be GOAT.
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France12904 Posts
On May 12 2024 19:22 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2024 18:30 Poopi wrote:On May 12 2024 09:37 Nakajin wrote:
They did a video a couple of Katowice ago (or maybe it was a season finale?) where they asked who was the GOAT, a good number of Korean said it was Serral, but I can't say I remember ByuN in particular. Some people kicked it out of bound, I think Maru said it was Rogue and Dark and I think Heromarine said Maru.
Also, I have no idea where the jab against Reynor come from, seems kind of insulting for nothing tbh. Yeah I am not surprised Maru said Rogue or Dark either, that’s why no matter the achievements of players you can’t really take their opinion on such a subject very seriously, since they are pro players competing against each other. Maru said in one of his WCS signature series that he didn’t understand back then why Rogue had that much success (in LotV) while he on the other hand struggled to get meaningful results. Since he looked up to Rogue for so long, it was his teammate, he helped him practice etc. he is biased towards Rogue like Artosis is. On the other hand, ByuN has been in a foreign team since forever so he is biased towards the foreigner opinion (aka Serral). Also there is no jab against Reynor? His WCs were high latency: Katowice 2021 was online, and gamers8 the servers were far from the venue. Come on man, it's pretty clearly a way to say that those tournaments have less competitive integrity. I don't see why we should try to put down players like that. Anyway, I do agree that who pro players think the GOAT doesn't really matter outside of just general interest, we're all big boys and girls who know enough about SC2 to have our own opinion, there's no right one anyway.
The problem is not the player, they do with the tools they are given. Katowice 2021 there was no other choice because of covid. Gamers8 yeah the competitive integrity was bad, since there is no LAN / you need dedicated « private » servers yada yada that Blizzard didn’t care to setup; but it’s not the players fault either.
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On May 12 2024 19:43 goldensail wrote:
Serral Fan A: 90% of people hate tofu. Yeah I made that up, but that's definitely the case.
Serral Fan B: here's a poll, 60% of people hate tofu, so absolutely no doubt
Me: but you only polled 100 Americans. There are also Asians
Serral Fan C: come on. Saying that there are communities out there that we don't really interact with who may or may not have a different opinion is not a response
Me: if your conclusion is majority of Americans hate tofu I would've been fine
Serral Fan B: you're moving the goal post. If you believe Asians are different show the stats. PFChang hates tofu and he owns a restaurant chain you know.
Me: guys you made a claim so burden of proof is on you. You know PFChang is allergic to soybean right?
Serral Fan B: you can always nitpick
Serral Fan C: The proof you ask for obviously dosen't exist
Hahaha this is so spot on
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Canada8989 Posts
On May 12 2024 19:43 goldensail wrote:
Serral Fan A: 90% of people hate tofu. Yeah I made that up, but that's definitely the case.
Serral Fan B: here's a poll, 60% of people hate tofu, so absolutely no doubt
Me: but you only polled 100 Americans. There are also Asians
Serral Fan C: come on. Saying that there are communities out there that we don't really interact with who may or may not have a different opinion is not a response
Me: if your conclusion is majority of Americans hate tofu I would've been fine
Serral Fan B: you're moving the goal post. If you believe Asians are different show the stats. PFChang hates tofu and he owns a restaurant chain you know.
Me: guys you made a claim so burden of proof is on you. You know PFChang is allergic to soybean right?
Serral Fan B: you can always nitpick
Serral Fan C: The proof you ask for obviously dosen't exist
Jesus fucking Christ this interaction has been one of my most unpleasant in a long time. I don't know why I bothered sticking myself in this debate, it always ends up like this. It was a fun GSL day too...
Oh and by the way Maru is my personal GOAT.
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EPT
