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On February 12 2024 09:12 Nasigil wrote:
The funny thing is, if it's Dark beating Serral and then beating Maru in the finals, I can guarantee you will see much less complaining. The same people that's non-stop bitching about balance/veto system/grouping etc now will actually very likely just express disappointment Maru losing again and congrats Dark for gaining another big win before military, with very little ill feelings.
The reason they are being insufferable after Serral win is simply because Serral is the only threat to Maru's GOAT status. And Dark is not. The people that somehow link their self esteem to the player they idolized are driven insane by the thought that their favorite player is less and less likely to be considered GOAT. And they are trying to use every excuse imaginable to discredit Serral's achievement. If it's Maru winning you can be damn sure they will talk about it like greatest achievement ever and no one would be complaining about waning scene of Korean Starcraft 2.
Having been through the Jordan/Lebron and Messi/Ronaldo debate from other sports, this is just painfully all too familiar.
Or simply speaking, there was a lot less whining after Master's Coliseum, which was basically just the same result (Serral speedruns dropping a single map, takes out 2 top Koreans and a top-3 foreigner) with the same players, but without the psychological stakes.
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On February 12 2024 09:12 Nasigil wrote:
The funny thing is, if it's Dark beating Serral and then beating Maru in the finals, I can guarantee you will see much less complaining. The same people that's non-stop bitching about balance/veto system/grouping etc now will actually very likely just express disappointment Maru losing again and congrats Dark for gaining another big win before military, with very little ill feelings.
The reason they are being insufferable after Serral win is simply because Serral is the only threat to Maru's GOAT status. And Dark is not. The people that somehow link their self esteem to the player they idolized are driven insane by the thought that their favorite player is less and less likely to be considered GOAT. And they are trying to use every excuse imaginable to discredit Serral's achievement. If it's Maru winning you can be damn sure they will talk about it like greatest achievement ever and no one would be complaining about waning scene of Korean Starcraft 2.
Having been through the Jordan/Lebron and Messi/Ronaldo debate from other sports, this is just painfully all too familiar.
Both sets of supporters live vicariously through their favourite players. A player like serral, or anyone as dominant, is automatically the one that you root against if your favourite player is contender-level. In english football you were either a Manchester United fan in the 2000s or you didn't like them. You either celebrated when they won or celebrated when they lost. You have two camps of people, and they get further and further pulled apart the more dominant the team/player is. This is sports fan tribalism in a nutshell
When a dark or reynor or oliveira wins a tournament, it means a player less favoured won something. It's only to be expected that people react more favourably to an outcome like that
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Lol Maru gets destroyed 0-4
You missed your best chance last year, and you are not winning championships now.
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On February 12 2024 09:08 NeWHoriZonS wrote:
Since last Katowice, Serral is 143-11 in series according to Aligulac.
Simply unreal.
That really is unbelievable. Its really cool to get to witness this kind of greatness in our lifetime.
PS. Somehow I have a feeling, that Serral is number 3 in the Miz-list, and then we can see the fireworks just begin. :D
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On February 12 2024 09:12 Nasigil wrote:
The funny thing is, if it's Dark beating Serral and then beating Maru in the finals, I can guarantee you will see much less complaining. The same people that's non-stop bitching about balance/veto system/grouping etc now will actually very likely just express disappointment Maru losing again and congrats Dark for gaining another big win before military, with very little ill feelings.
The reason they are being insufferable after Serral win is simply because Serral is the only threat to Maru's GOAT status. And Dark is not. The people that somehow link their self esteem to the player they idolized are driven insane by the thought that their favorite player is less and less likely to be considered GOAT. And they are trying to use every excuse imaginable to discredit Serral's achievement. If it's Maru winning you can be damn sure they will talk about it like greatest achievement ever and no one would be complaining about waning scene of Korean Starcraft 2.
Having been through the Jordan/Lebron and Messi/Ronaldo debate from other sports, this is just painfully all too familiar.
Come to think of it, it’s just like the Messi and Ronaldo debate.
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On February 12 2024 10:10 ZAWGURN wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2024 09:12 Nasigil wrote:
The funny thing is, if it's Dark beating Serral and then beating Maru in the finals, I can guarantee you will see much less complaining. The same people that's non-stop bitching about balance/veto system/grouping etc now will actually very likely just express disappointment Maru losing again and congrats Dark for gaining another big win before military, with very little ill feelings.
The reason they are being insufferable after Serral win is simply because Serral is the only threat to Maru's GOAT status. And Dark is not. The people that somehow link their self esteem to the player they idolized are driven insane by the thought that their favorite player is less and less likely to be considered GOAT. And they are trying to use every excuse imaginable to discredit Serral's achievement. If it's Maru winning you can be damn sure they will talk about it like greatest achievement ever and no one would be complaining about waning scene of Korean Starcraft 2.
Having been through the Jordan/Lebron and Messi/Ronaldo debate from other sports, this is just painfully all too familiar. Come to think of it, it’s just like the Messi and Ronaldo debate.
As in, the true GOATs are not Messi, Ronaldo, Serral or Maru but CHRISTIAN PULISIC and NEEB
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On February 12 2024 10:13 ZAWGURN wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2024 10:10 ZAWGURN wrote:On February 12 2024 09:12 Nasigil wrote:
The funny thing is, if it's Dark beating Serral and then beating Maru in the finals, I can guarantee you will see much less complaining. The same people that's non-stop bitching about balance/veto system/grouping etc now will actually very likely just express disappointment Maru losing again and congrats Dark for gaining another big win before military, with very little ill feelings.
The reason they are being insufferable after Serral win is simply because Serral is the only threat to Maru's GOAT status. And Dark is not. The people that somehow link their self esteem to the player they idolized are driven insane by the thought that their favorite player is less and less likely to be considered GOAT. And they are trying to use every excuse imaginable to discredit Serral's achievement. If it's Maru winning you can be damn sure they will talk about it like greatest achievement ever and no one would be complaining about waning scene of Korean Starcraft 2.
Having been through the Jordan/Lebron and Messi/Ronaldo debate from other sports, this is just painfully all too familiar. Come to think of it, it’s just like the Messi and Ronaldo debate. As in, the true GOATs are not Messi, Ronaldo, Serral or Maru but CHRISTIAN PULISIC and NEEB
Donovan would easily win against Pulisic in SC2. Pulisic is a FIFA-kid, without a controller he doesn't know what to do 
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I mean, you can say Serral never had to prep for a series the way they used to have to in Korean Starleagues, with days or even a week to prep for a specific opponent. Other than that, there's...just...no denying his status.
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On February 12 2024 09:12 Nasigil wrote:
The reason they are being insufferable after Serral win is simply because Serral is the only threat to Maru's GOAT status.
I personally wouldn't even give Maru the GOAT status over Rogue. And i don't care how many GSLs he has won. Especially in the absence of Rogue. Not hating on anyone here because all of them are absolute monsters in this game. But i simply put Rogue/Serral slightly higher.
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Northern Ireland26550 Posts
On February 12 2024 09:32 sudete wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2024 09:12 Nasigil wrote:
The funny thing is, if it's Dark beating Serral and then beating Maru in the finals, I can guarantee you will see much less complaining. The same people that's non-stop bitching about balance/veto system/grouping etc now will actually very likely just express disappointment Maru losing again and congrats Dark for gaining another big win before military, with very little ill feelings.
The reason they are being insufferable after Serral win is simply because Serral is the only threat to Maru's GOAT status. And Dark is not. The people that somehow link their self esteem to the player they idolized are driven insane by the thought that their favorite player is less and less likely to be considered GOAT. And they are trying to use every excuse imaginable to discredit Serral's achievement. If it's Maru winning you can be damn sure they will talk about it like greatest achievement ever and no one would be complaining about waning scene of Korean Starcraft 2.
Having been through the Jordan/Lebron and Messi/Ronaldo debate from other sports, this is just painfully all too familiar. Both sets of supporters live vicariously through their favourite players. A player like serral, or anyone as dominant, is automatically the one that you root against if your favourite player is contender-level. In english football you were either a Manchester United fan in the 2000s or you didn't like them. You either celebrated when they won or celebrated when they lost. You have two camps of people, and they get further and further pulled apart the more dominant the team/player is. This is sports fan tribalism in a nutshell When a dark or reynor or oliveira wins a tournament, it means a player less favoured won something. It's only to be expected that people react more favourably to an outcome like that
Sports fan tribalism does frequently turn into utter deluded nonsense though. If people could just draw that line between rivalry and banter and utter madness it’d be great!
I can only really think of two sportsmen who were dominant and generally universally loved, or at least respected/not actively disliked. Usain Bolt, because who cares about sprinting year round apart from the Olympics and maybe a Worlds? So the dominance doesn’t become too monotonous. And Roger Federer, who paired his dominance with some of the most aesthetically and stylistically pleasing tennis on the circuit. After years of big serving monsters being very prominent.
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Dominican Republic627 Posts
i been watching starcraft since 2001, and i clearly remember people bringing new Strategies or Builds in order to defeat someone whos been in a good run, what happened to that mindset this days?
We all have to agree that Zerg has been the best Race in a while, isn`t that a ring in the bell?
i clearly remember Toss winning much and getting Nerf here and there
as well as Terran...
there is something about Zerg that makes it suitable for any kind play you try to pull.
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Northern Ireland26550 Posts
On February 12 2024 09:08 NeWHoriZonS wrote:
Since last Katowice, Serral is 143-11 in series according to Aligulac.
Simply unreal.
That is absolutely absurd. I well remember discussions way back in the day that hitting the kind of win rates that a Flash/Jaedong/Bisu had at their BW pomp just wasn’t possible in SC2.
Game’s just not as mechanical, it’s harder to pull big macro/micro edges, there’s a hell of a lot of potent all-ins that let worse players triumph more reliably. Even small mistakes can see you lose a game in seconds, and the game’s very fast.
I must say I agreed with that assessment at the time, it’s truly remarkable, especially when it’s mostly versus other top players.
I don’t even think Stephano, when he was by a distance the best foreigner was coming close to those kind of numbers when playing other foreigners, and the foreign scene was way behind Korea compared to this era.
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On February 12 2024 06:12 ZAWGURN wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2024 06:08 goldensail wrote:
Maru/Clem have taken Terran to the limit but they never stood a chance against someone who can make full use of the current Zerg arsenal. For years the community has complained about race balance but people continue to dismiss it as 'whine". This is not how competitive gaming should work, and why SC2 is losing its fan base. Well if there’s only one person who CAN make full use of that arsenal I think he deserves to win. Cause it’s clear no one else is doing that.
Correct
The zerg imba people just can't cope that Serral is the best ever. Yes, the best player ever is going to make a race look imba. Even if that race had the lowest number of qualified players in the tourney
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On February 12 2024 13:07 TentativePanda wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2024 06:12 ZAWGURN wrote:On February 12 2024 06:08 goldensail wrote:
Maru/Clem have taken Terran to the limit but they never stood a chance against someone who can make full use of the current Zerg arsenal. For years the community has complained about race balance but people continue to dismiss it as 'whine". This is not how competitive gaming should work, and why SC2 is losing its fan base. Well if there’s only one person who CAN make full use of that arsenal I think he deserves to win. Cause it’s clear no one else is doing that. Correct The zerg imba people just can't cope that Serral is the best ever. Yes, the best player ever is going to make a race look imba. Even if that race had the lowest number of qualified players in the tourney
In my opinion, part of the reason we've had so many Zerg champions (and Serral's dominance) is partially due to balance and maps getting larger and larger, making it more advantageous for Zerg. Games are also routinely going past 15 minutes meaning whoever mines more tends to win. Whereas before, games were decided by who takes a better fight and had the better strategy. It is a real time strategy game after all. If the best of 7 was played on maps including King Sejong Station, Daybreak, Cloud Kingdom, Ohana, and Whirlwind, I think the tournament results and race balance would be significantly different on the current patch.
With that said, given the state of the game right now, Serral is easily the best player in SC2 as of this moment. We can say how imba Zerg is and how weak Protoss is all we want. But for him to drop only 1 map all tournament is not easy and he definitely deserves props. Congratulations to Serral.
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On February 12 2024 13:18 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2024 13:07 TentativePanda wrote:On February 12 2024 06:12 ZAWGURN wrote:On February 12 2024 06:08 goldensail wrote:
Maru/Clem have taken Terran to the limit but they never stood a chance against someone who can make full use of the current Zerg arsenal. For years the community has complained about race balance but people continue to dismiss it as 'whine". This is not how competitive gaming should work, and why SC2 is losing its fan base. Well if there’s only one person who CAN make full use of that arsenal I think he deserves to win. Cause it’s clear no one else is doing that. Correct The zerg imba people just can't cope that Serral is the best ever. Yes, the best player ever is going to make a race look imba. Even if that race had the lowest number of qualified players in the tourney In my opinion, part of the reason we've had so many Zerg champions (and Serral's dominance) is partially due to balance and maps getting larger and larger, making it more advantageous for Zerg. Games are also routinely going past 15 minutes meaning whoever mines more tends to win. Whereas before, games were decided by who takes a better fight and had the better strategy. It is a real time strategy game after all. If the best of 7 was played on maps including King Sejong Station, Daybreak, Cloud Kingdom, Ohana, and Whirlwind, I think the tournament results and race balance would be significantly different on the current patch. With that said, given the state of the game right now, Serral is easily the best player in SC2 as of this moment. We can say how imba Zerg is and how weak Protoss is all we want. But for him to drop only 1 map all tournament is not easy and he definitely deserves props. Congratulations to Serral.
I definitely agree with this. Zerg has won more than 50% of premier tournaments in the modern era (2018+) which is a tough pill to swallow for a game that has 3 races. However, Serral going 143-11 in series in the last year and taking a $150k tournament against the best of the best while dropping only a single map is dominance on a level that can't be solely attributed to game or map balance, especially since the other zergs aren't even close to that. He's just insane. Though I do wish zerg maybe got a little bit more of a nerf so my boy Clem can lift some more trophies
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On February 12 2024 13:18 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2024 13:07 TentativePanda wrote:On February 12 2024 06:12 ZAWGURN wrote:On February 12 2024 06:08 goldensail wrote:
Maru/Clem have taken Terran to the limit but they never stood a chance against someone who can make full use of the current Zerg arsenal. For years the community has complained about race balance but people continue to dismiss it as 'whine". This is not how competitive gaming should work, and why SC2 is losing its fan base. Well if there’s only one person who CAN make full use of that arsenal I think he deserves to win. Cause it’s clear no one else is doing that. Correct The zerg imba people just can't cope that Serral is the best ever. Yes, the best player ever is going to make a race look imba. Even if that race had the lowest number of qualified players in the tourney In my opinion, part of the reason we've had so many Zerg champions (and Serral's dominance) is partially due to balance and maps getting larger and larger, making it more advantageous for Zerg. Games are also routinely going past 15 minutes meaning whoever mines more tends to win. Whereas before, games were decided by who takes a better fight and had the better strategy. It is a real time strategy game after all. If the best of 7 was played on maps including King Sejong Station, Daybreak, Cloud Kingdom, Ohana, and Whirlwind, I think the tournament results and race balance would be significantly different on the current patch. With that said, given the state of the game right now, Serral is easily the best player in SC2 as of this moment. We can say how imba Zerg is and how weak Protoss is all we want. But for him to drop only 1 map all tournament is not easy and he definitely deserves props. Congratulations to Serral.
This is pretty much how I feel. I also think that the LotV minerals/gas changes and the 12 worker start, which were two huge changes at the start of Legacy, both fundamentally favor zerg. It pretty much always takes zerg a little while to figure out a patch or new expansion. That's the nature of defensive, reactive play. Therefore the extent to which the economic changes were a huge buff to zerg wasn't recognized at the start of Legacy, because zergs were getting slaughtered right and left by new cheeses and units they didn't know how to scout or properly react to.
And then there was the queen AA range buff in 2016 or 2017 that still exists today, and still makes early games so incredibly boring. Honestly, the balance council should nerf queen range.
I could write a whole article on the 12 worker start, and maybe I will, since I think it is so deeply underappreciated
EDIT: Props to Serral, he would obviously be a truly amazing player no matter what race he played. I still wish he would switch to protoss or terran for a while, and try to win big championships with them. Would be amazing viewing, at least.
EDIT 2: Map picks before vetoes is the dumbest thing ever. I hope no tournament ever does this again. The entire point of a veto is that you can get rid of the absolute bottom of the barrel, garbage tier, totally imbalanced map. Which means vetoes should always come first, as every sane tournament has always done.
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Northern Ireland26550 Posts
On February 12 2024 08:20 Antithesis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2024 06:08 Gescom wrote:On February 12 2024 06:04 ZAWGURN wrote:
If Serral only won because Zerg is OP, then wouldn't Dark and Reynor both be dominating Maru? But Maru beat Dark AND Reynor in this tournament. Serral is just built different. There's no point in even engaging. 'The break was too short', 'the veto system was bad'. People will find any reason to complain. The reality is, in the interview before the match Maru said he was afraid of Serral. And for good reason. Similarly, Maru lost a series to Cyan, and was pushed to the brink by ByuN. Serral went 20-1. Exactly. And it must be said that it was quite disconcerting how quickly a good number of commentators in this thread began to resort to balance whining and dismissive remarks. Everyone was hyping up the finals, until suddenly midway through the series, when it became clear that Maru is losing, some of those guys collectively decided that it is not anymore his own play but balance issues and a single map which prevent Maru from winning. With this dominant a tournament run, an overall score of 20-1, a 3-1 over the next best zerg in the world, and a 4-0 in the finals, over Maru out of all players, there is no reasonable argument left to question the deservedness of Serral's victory and status at large.
I love his play, but as I’ve said before he has more excuses made for him than anyone in SC2 history. Which is a shame, there’s just no need to go so overboard sometimes.
I will say though, regardless of how the rest of the series went, as and how Maru played incredibly well in that set, you should not be having vetoes come after first map picks. Especially at one of the top 2 tournaments of the whole year. Momentum is a real asset in these things and playing you’re heart out for 40 minutes on a borderline (if even) broken map, only to be 0-2 down against Serral of all people, that’s rough man. I still think Serral takes it in the shape he brought, but maybe we get that series for the ages instead of a sweep.
It’s just bad practice. Hopefully they make that rather simple change, and while they’re at it maybe improve their group selections. But hey I can’t complain apart from that, a great feast of StarCraft, production, casting talent and a lack of downtime were absolutely on point.
Bit of positivity after my moaning in this post (and my incessant moaning about World Cup qualification), feel it’s in order!
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On February 12 2024 13:47 TheLordofAwesome wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2024 13:18 geokilla wrote:On February 12 2024 13:07 TentativePanda wrote:On February 12 2024 06:12 ZAWGURN wrote:On February 12 2024 06:08 goldensail wrote:
Maru/Clem have taken Terran to the limit but they never stood a chance against someone who can make full use of the current Zerg arsenal. For years the community has complained about race balance but people continue to dismiss it as 'whine". This is not how competitive gaming should work, and why SC2 is losing its fan base. Well if there’s only one person who CAN make full use of that arsenal I think he deserves to win. Cause it’s clear no one else is doing that. Correct The zerg imba people just can't cope that Serral is the best ever. Yes, the best player ever is going to make a race look imba. Even if that race had the lowest number of qualified players in the tourney In my opinion, part of the reason we've had so many Zerg champions (and Serral's dominance) is partially due to balance and maps getting larger and larger, making it more advantageous for Zerg. Games are also routinely going past 15 minutes meaning whoever mines more tends to win. Whereas before, games were decided by who takes a better fight and had the better strategy. It is a real time strategy game after all. If the best of 7 was played on maps including King Sejong Station, Daybreak, Cloud Kingdom, Ohana, and Whirlwind, I think the tournament results and race balance would be significantly different on the current patch. With that said, given the state of the game right now, Serral is easily the best player in SC2 as of this moment. We can say how imba Zerg is and how weak Protoss is all we want. But for him to drop only 1 map all tournament is not easy and he definitely deserves props. Congratulations to Serral. This is pretty much how I feel. I also think that the LotV minerals/gas changes and the 12 worker start, which were two huge changes at the start of Legacy, both fundamentally favor zerg. It pretty much always takes zerg a little while to figure out a patch or new expansion. That's the nature of defensive, reactive play. Therefore the extent to which the economic changes were a huge buff to zerg wasn't recognized at the start of Legacy, because zergs were getting slaughtered right and left by new cheeses and units they didn't know how to scout or properly react to. And then there was the queen AA range buff in 2016 or 2017 that still exists today, and still makes early games so incredibly boring. Honestly, the balance council should nerf queen range. I could write a whole article on the 12 worker start, and maybe I will, since I think it is so deeply underappreciated EDIT: Props to Serral, he would obviously be a truly amazing player no matter what race he played. I still wish he would switch to protoss or terran for a while, and try to win big championships with them. Would be amazing viewing, at least.
I completely forgot about the Queen range buff. Please do write an article on the two and get it published on here and Reddit. Some sort of Queen nerf along with slightly smaller maps will go a long way in balancing the game while keeping all else the same.
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On February 12 2024 06:01 FFXthebest wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2024 05:56 Balnazza wrote:On February 12 2024 05:53 lokol4890 wrote:
Man I've been following this game for over a decade and I've never seen a more combative group than the Serral fans. Usually when your favorite player wins you feel good but you can also empathize with the fans of the loser and give some grace. Not serral fans though, y'all keep twisting the knife further. It's like it's not enough that your favorite player wins, you go out of your way to try and make people feel worse. Wonder why that is If you look through this thread, but especially the last ~20 pages, you get a collection of anti-Serral (or anti-Zerg) posts. It's the maps, the balance, the schedule. What did someone say? "Maru played like a god but not even a god can win TvZ" On the other hand you have people celebrating Serral, pointing out his incredible score this tournament and in general. How is that "twisting the knife further"? Been like that with the Maru / terran fanboys When Zerg lose, it’s cause terran is superior player. No one complained about fungel or Zergs when terrans were smashing solar reynor and dark around in this tournament. But once Serral wins, all a sudden fungel is op, Zerg everything is Op The coping is real with terrans. If anything is op, it’s the ghost. That unit is a disgrace
It doesn't matter, Serral has already proved what Zerg can do on certain potential level where no other race could compare. It could be because imba or T player has not develop all its potentials. At least there should be something be done to make other race competing with Zerg on Serral's level. I doubt anyone new saw such game would choose T ( P is for sure no one, what a pity). If some day there are other T develop better skills showing dominating on the game like Serral, then it is time to be adjusted again. At least, I am not interested in watching a dominating final like this. Eventually no one will watch it any more (though it is already a dead game rn). Keep such balance level will just result in other race player disappointed and leave, which is exactly the toss now. When there were Zest, State, Parting, Trap etc, with horrible imbalance, toss could still make to quarter-final. Once all these pro or goat are disappointed and not returning, there are only lone herO and a never-offline maxpax. Make the change and let the player to show if it works in big Tournaments
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On February 12 2024 06:48 Kitai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2024 06:08 goldensail wrote:
Maru/Clem have taken Terran to the limit but they never stood a chance against someone who can make full use of the current Zerg arsenal. For years the community has complained about race balance but people continue to dismiss it as 'whine". This is not how competitive gaming should work, and why SC2 is losing its fan base. Didn't Clem just beat Serral in the semifinals of a massive tournament a month or two ago, and win a map where he was down 100 supply? And then he beat the second best zerg in the world (Dark) in the grand finals, making it look even easier. And then everyone came out in droves begging for a widowmine nerf. But yeah, I guess he "never stood a chance" because his race is bad. I swear, some people can't remember anything beyond what happened more than 2 days ago.
I heard Dark got covid on Atlanta final, which impacted his performance a lot.
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EPT
