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Northern Ireland26535 Posts
On February 12 2024 13:47 TheLordofAwesome wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2024 13:18 geokilla wrote:On February 12 2024 13:07 TentativePanda wrote:On February 12 2024 06:12 ZAWGURN wrote:On February 12 2024 06:08 goldensail wrote:
Maru/Clem have taken Terran to the limit but they never stood a chance against someone who can make full use of the current Zerg arsenal. For years the community has complained about race balance but people continue to dismiss it as 'whine". This is not how competitive gaming should work, and why SC2 is losing its fan base. Well if there’s only one person who CAN make full use of that arsenal I think he deserves to win. Cause it’s clear no one else is doing that. Correct The zerg imba people just can't cope that Serral is the best ever. Yes, the best player ever is going to make a race look imba. Even if that race had the lowest number of qualified players in the tourney In my opinion, part of the reason we've had so many Zerg champions (and Serral's dominance) is partially due to balance and maps getting larger and larger, making it more advantageous for Zerg. Games are also routinely going past 15 minutes meaning whoever mines more tends to win. Whereas before, games were decided by who takes a better fight and had the better strategy. It is a real time strategy game after all. If the best of 7 was played on maps including King Sejong Station, Daybreak, Cloud Kingdom, Ohana, and Whirlwind, I think the tournament results and race balance would be significantly different on the current patch. With that said, given the state of the game right now, Serral is easily the best player in SC2 as of this moment. We can say how imba Zerg is and how weak Protoss is all we want. But for him to drop only 1 map all tournament is not easy and he definitely deserves props. Congratulations to Serral. This is pretty much how I feel. I also think that the LotV minerals/gas changes and the 12 worker start, which were two huge changes at the start of Legacy, both fundamentally favor zerg. It pretty much always takes zerg a little while to figure out a patch or new expansion. That's the nature of defensive, reactive play. Therefore the extent to which the economic changes were a huge buff to zerg wasn't recognized at the start of Legacy, because zergs were getting slaughtered right and left by new cheeses and units they didn't know how to scout or properly react to. And then there was the queen AA range buff in 2016 or 2017 that still exists today, and still makes early games so incredibly boring. Honestly, the balance council should nerf queen range. I could write a whole article on the 12 worker start, and maybe I will, since I think it is so deeply underappreciated EDIT: Props to Serral, he would obviously be a truly amazing player no matter what race he played. I still wish he would switch to protoss or terran for a while, and try to win big championships with them. Would be amazing viewing, at least.
It’s just difficult to see how one nerfs Zerg without tipping the scales too much the other way. At a time where the balance team thought the cyclone rework was a good idea.
And shrinking maps a bit probably helps TvZ sure, but without a bunch of other changes I don’t see how Protoss doesn’t just get absolutely butchered in TvP.
Like it can be done absolutely, but with the game in semi-maintenance mode?
I agree on the 12 worker start too, as I do on Warpgate being at the core of Toss issues, but fun as theorycrafting is I can’t see much fundamental tweaks at this stage.
I will also say that Zergs have just optimised the shit out of their play over the years, strategically and mechanically, least at the very top. So credit to the hivemind too!
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On February 12 2024 07:50 onPHYRE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2024 04:46 Solio wrote:On February 12 2024 04:43 Nasigil wrote:On February 12 2024 04:39 Vindicare605 wrote:
Maru has been the better player for this entire game, but it's just too big of a map advantage for Serral to overcome.
Maru got caught with like 10 supposedly "singlehandedly game ending" fungal but was still able to drag it all the way to the end. How does that make him a better player? Because burrowed infestors fungals = bullshit So much easier to get them than to catch them and defend against them, the fact that Maru was able to make the game close while playing on this difficult map and against this stupid unit clearly shows he is better, like every single engagement that serral won was because of that, without that it would not even be close Some quotes age like spoiled milk.. and then there is this. At what point do you take the blinders off and give Serral his props? He just 4-0 Maru at a grand final with hundreds of thousands of dollars on the line and no “latency” issues. 4-0 doesn’t happen because of the maps or the races. Just give him his due already, Jesus. The mental gymnastics are astounding. Maru played extremely well, he is a top tier player.. and he didn’t win a single map. Just stop. There is no debating what we just saw. Serral is the GOAT. Show nested quote +On February 12 2024 04:42 yezzir88 wrote:On February 12 2024 04:39 Vindicare605 wrote:
Maru has been the better player for this entire game, but it's just too big of a map advantage for Serral to overcome.
Agreed. In an actual balanced game, Maru would've won easily. We saw a clear example of a better player losing to a worse player because the tournament organizer making a map to heavily favor the inferior player. Ah yes, and the other 3 maps? And what about the other players Serral destroyed? Maru was wrecking every Zerg he played up to that point. You are arguing that Maru is the better player?.. cmon. They are both at the very top, and one is just better than the other. In every way.
sure, let's get other 2 race a similar invisible caster, even without damage and just slow let's see how it looks like.
oh, now it could be casting it as soon as it is produced, an extremely over power massive control skill with damage.
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at the very least, SC2 mapmakers need to take a page out of the BW playbook and be a little more aggressive in balancing the game through map design than they currently are. zerg is clearly the best race. you can think serral is a step ahead of maru and anyone else and still agree with that, but then the tournament map pools also consistently favor zerg. that's nonsensical and fixable.
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On February 12 2024 14:04 mayrain319 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2024 07:50 onPHYRE wrote:On February 12 2024 04:46 Solio wrote:On February 12 2024 04:43 Nasigil wrote:On February 12 2024 04:39 Vindicare605 wrote:
Maru has been the better player for this entire game, but it's just too big of a map advantage for Serral to overcome.
Maru got caught with like 10 supposedly "singlehandedly game ending" fungal but was still able to drag it all the way to the end. How does that make him a better player? Because burrowed infestors fungals = bullshit So much easier to get them than to catch them and defend against them, the fact that Maru was able to make the game close while playing on this difficult map and against this stupid unit clearly shows he is better, like every single engagement that serral won was because of that, without that it would not even be close Some quotes age like spoiled milk.. and then there is this. At what point do you take the blinders off and give Serral his props? He just 4-0 Maru at a grand final with hundreds of thousands of dollars on the line and no “latency” issues. 4-0 doesn’t happen because of the maps or the races. Just give him his due already, Jesus. The mental gymnastics are astounding. Maru played extremely well, he is a top tier player.. and he didn’t win a single map. Just stop. There is no debating what we just saw. Serral is the GOAT. On February 12 2024 04:42 yezzir88 wrote:On February 12 2024 04:39 Vindicare605 wrote:
Maru has been the better player for this entire game, but it's just too big of a map advantage for Serral to overcome.
Agreed. In an actual balanced game, Maru would've won easily. We saw a clear example of a better player losing to a worse player because the tournament organizer making a map to heavily favor the inferior player. Ah yes, and the other 3 maps? And what about the other players Serral destroyed? Maru was wrecking every Zerg he played up to that point. You are arguing that Maru is the better player?.. cmon. They are both at the very top, and one is just better than the other. In every way. sure, let's get other 2 race a similar invisible caster, even without damage and just slow let's see how it looks like. oh, now it could be casting it as soon as it is produced, an extremely over power massive control skill with damage.
A massive control spell which is more powerful than Dark Archon has in broodwar, especially it only need Lair and have enough energy to cast as soon as it is produced!! even more, it could become invisible and move!!
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On February 12 2024 14:01 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2024 13:47 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 12 2024 13:18 geokilla wrote:On February 12 2024 13:07 TentativePanda wrote:On February 12 2024 06:12 ZAWGURN wrote:On February 12 2024 06:08 goldensail wrote:
Maru/Clem have taken Terran to the limit but they never stood a chance against someone who can make full use of the current Zerg arsenal. For years the community has complained about race balance but people continue to dismiss it as 'whine". This is not how competitive gaming should work, and why SC2 is losing its fan base. Well if there’s only one person who CAN make full use of that arsenal I think he deserves to win. Cause it’s clear no one else is doing that. Correct The zerg imba people just can't cope that Serral is the best ever. Yes, the best player ever is going to make a race look imba. Even if that race had the lowest number of qualified players in the tourney In my opinion, part of the reason we've had so many Zerg champions (and Serral's dominance) is partially due to balance and maps getting larger and larger, making it more advantageous for Zerg. Games are also routinely going past 15 minutes meaning whoever mines more tends to win. Whereas before, games were decided by who takes a better fight and had the better strategy. It is a real time strategy game after all. If the best of 7 was played on maps including King Sejong Station, Daybreak, Cloud Kingdom, Ohana, and Whirlwind, I think the tournament results and race balance would be significantly different on the current patch. With that said, given the state of the game right now, Serral is easily the best player in SC2 as of this moment. We can say how imba Zerg is and how weak Protoss is all we want. But for him to drop only 1 map all tournament is not easy and he definitely deserves props. Congratulations to Serral. This is pretty much how I feel. I also think that the LotV minerals/gas changes and the 12 worker start, which were two huge changes at the start of Legacy, both fundamentally favor zerg. It pretty much always takes zerg a little while to figure out a patch or new expansion. That's the nature of defensive, reactive play. Therefore the extent to which the economic changes were a huge buff to zerg wasn't recognized at the start of Legacy, because zergs were getting slaughtered right and left by new cheeses and units they didn't know how to scout or properly react to. And then there was the queen AA range buff in 2016 or 2017 that still exists today, and still makes early games so incredibly boring. Honestly, the balance council should nerf queen range. I could write a whole article on the 12 worker start, and maybe I will, since I think it is so deeply underappreciated EDIT: Props to Serral, he would obviously be a truly amazing player no matter what race he played. I still wish he would switch to protoss or terran for a while, and try to win big championships with them. Would be amazing viewing, at least. It’s just difficult to see how one nerfs Zerg without tipping the scales too much the other way. At a time where the balance team thought the cyclone rework was a good idea. And shrinking maps a bit probably helps TvZ sure, but without a bunch of other changes I don’t see how Protoss doesn’t just get absolutely butchered in TvP. Like it can be done absolutely, but with the game in semi-maintenance mode? I agree on the 12 worker start too, as I do on Warpgate being at the core of Toss issues, but fun as theorycrafting is I can’t see much fundamental tweaks at this stage. I will also say that Zergs have just optimised the shit out of their play over the years, strategically and mechanically, least at the very top. So credit to the hivemind too!
I replied to TakeTV earlier when he said we just complain and don't bother trying to balance the game. Problem is, we can't balance the game as 99% of us are casual gamers and have no ability to balance it. But since this thread has devolved into balance (and also cus no other active balance thread exists on here), this is how I would attempt to patch the game:
- Slightly smaller maps similar to the maps I mentioned. More variety too. Like cliffs, speed zones and slow zones, and whatever. The maps are too boring cus they're all the same.
- Give Colossi higher base attack damage and lower bonus damage to light units. This makes them slightly more powerful against Marauders and Roaches and keeps them just as good against Marines and Zerglings
- Revert Disruptor supply nerf
- Change the Cyclone so they're not as stupid and gimmicky as they currently are. Don't know how I'd change it though. Maybe just revert it?
- Reduce Queen range by 1 and creep tumours require 30 energy instead of 25 so they can't spawn creep right away. Make Queens slightly (10%?) faster off creep to compensate
- Give Banelings or Zerglings +5 HP once Adrenal Glands is researched. Not sure how it would affect balance but I think more run-bys in the late game would be a good thing for the game
- Remove Widow Mine bonus damage to shields. Buff the splash damage from +40 to +45 so it one shots SCVs as well as it currently does not
- Ghosts cost 175 minerals instead of 150. Change Steady Targeting so it doesn't do +40 bonus damage to Psionic.
- Reduce Liberator's Concord Canyon base damage by 5 (should help with TvP?)
- Slight nerf to Broodlord movement speed or range and slight increase to Broodling lifespan to compensate? Dunno how big of an effect this will have on balance.
- Slight buff to Infestor HP and bring back Pathogen Glands, making it cheaper to research.
- Slight increase to base Stalker damage. I read somewhere their DPS is very low and that's why they're so weak.
- Reduce Warp Prism pick up range. Compensate for this nerf somehow but don't know how. Cheaper? Slightly faster with the speed upgrade?
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If Maru played anyone else besides Serral in the finals, we wouldn't even be having these conversations. He made Reynor and Dark both look basically helpless, and I don't doubt he would have beaten Solar (apologies to Shin, but you know).
Maru and Serral are both transcendent players, but I have to say the latter gets way, way more disrespect and hostility. While I find some of the gloating after his win distasteful, I guarantee you that if Maru had won, certain posters would have been absolutely beside themselves with joy--not so much that Maru won, but simply that Serral had lost (there is a difference, actually) and this thread would have gotten really, really ugly.
Just look at the discourse now--which is, frankly, comical. Serral just went 25-2? in the playoffs for MC and IEM and people were complaining about balance, tournament draws, scheduling, daylight savings, etc. before games were even played in some instances. If you resume g2 from replay 10 minutes in, I guarantee you any other Zerg in the world loses that game.
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On February 12 2024 14:29 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2024 14:01 WombaT wrote:On February 12 2024 13:47 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 12 2024 13:18 geokilla wrote:On February 12 2024 13:07 TentativePanda wrote:On February 12 2024 06:12 ZAWGURN wrote:On February 12 2024 06:08 goldensail wrote:
Maru/Clem have taken Terran to the limit but they never stood a chance against someone who can make full use of the current Zerg arsenal. For years the community has complained about race balance but people continue to dismiss it as 'whine". This is not how competitive gaming should work, and why SC2 is losing its fan base. Well if there’s only one person who CAN make full use of that arsenal I think he deserves to win. Cause it’s clear no one else is doing that. Correct The zerg imba people just can't cope that Serral is the best ever. Yes, the best player ever is going to make a race look imba. Even if that race had the lowest number of qualified players in the tourney In my opinion, part of the reason we've had so many Zerg champions (and Serral's dominance) is partially due to balance and maps getting larger and larger, making it more advantageous for Zerg. Games are also routinely going past 15 minutes meaning whoever mines more tends to win. Whereas before, games were decided by who takes a better fight and had the better strategy. It is a real time strategy game after all. If the best of 7 was played on maps including King Sejong Station, Daybreak, Cloud Kingdom, Ohana, and Whirlwind, I think the tournament results and race balance would be significantly different on the current patch. With that said, given the state of the game right now, Serral is easily the best player in SC2 as of this moment. We can say how imba Zerg is and how weak Protoss is all we want. But for him to drop only 1 map all tournament is not easy and he definitely deserves props. Congratulations to Serral. This is pretty much how I feel. I also think that the LotV minerals/gas changes and the 12 worker start, which were two huge changes at the start of Legacy, both fundamentally favor zerg. It pretty much always takes zerg a little while to figure out a patch or new expansion. That's the nature of defensive, reactive play. Therefore the extent to which the economic changes were a huge buff to zerg wasn't recognized at the start of Legacy, because zergs were getting slaughtered right and left by new cheeses and units they didn't know how to scout or properly react to. And then there was the queen AA range buff in 2016 or 2017 that still exists today, and still makes early games so incredibly boring. Honestly, the balance council should nerf queen range. I could write a whole article on the 12 worker start, and maybe I will, since I think it is so deeply underappreciated EDIT: Props to Serral, he would obviously be a truly amazing player no matter what race he played. I still wish he would switch to protoss or terran for a while, and try to win big championships with them. Would be amazing viewing, at least. It’s just difficult to see how one nerfs Zerg without tipping the scales too much the other way. At a time where the balance team thought the cyclone rework was a good idea. And shrinking maps a bit probably helps TvZ sure, but without a bunch of other changes I don’t see how Protoss doesn’t just get absolutely butchered in TvP. Like it can be done absolutely, but with the game in semi-maintenance mode? I agree on the 12 worker start too, as I do on Warpgate being at the core of Toss issues, but fun as theorycrafting is I can’t see much fundamental tweaks at this stage. I will also say that Zergs have just optimised the shit out of their play over the years, strategically and mechanically, least at the very top. So credit to the hivemind too! I replied to TakeTV earlier when he said we just complain and don't bother trying to balance the game. Problem is, we can't balance the game as 99% of us are casual gamers and have no ability to balance it. But since this thread has devolved into balance (and also cus no other active balance thread exists on here), this is how I would attempt to patch the game: - Slightly smaller maps similar to the maps I mentioned. More variety too. Like cliffs, speed zones and slow zones, and whatever. The maps are too boring cus they're all the same.
- Give Colossi higher base attack damage and lower bonus damage to light units. This makes them slightly more powerful against Marauders and Roaches and keeps them just as good against Marines and Zerglings
- Revert Disruptor supply nerf
- Change the Cyclone so they're not as stupid and gimmicky as they currently are. Don't know how I'd change it though. Maybe just revert it?
- Reduce Queen range by 1 and creep tumours require 30 energy instead of 25 so they can't spawn creep right away. Make Queens slightly (10%?) faster off creep to compensate
- Give Banelings or Zerglings +5 HP once Adrenal Glands is researched. Not sure how it would affect balance but I think more run-bys in the late game would be a good thing for the game
- Remove Widow Mine bonus damage to shields. Buff the splash damage from +40 to +45 so it one shots SCVs as well as it currently does not
- Ghosts cost 175 minerals instead of 150. Change Steady Targeting so it doesn't do +40 bonus damage to Psionic.
- Reduce Liberator's Concord Canyon base damage by 5 (should help with TvP?)
- Slight nerf to Broodlord movement speed or range and slight increase to Broodling lifespan to compensate? Dunno how big of an effect this will have on balance.
- Slight buff to Infestor HP and bring back Pathogen Glands, making it cheaper to research.
- Slight increase to base Stalker damage. I read somewhere their DPS is very low and that's why they're so weak.
- Reduce Warp Prism pick up range. Compensate for this nerf somehow but don't know how. Cheaper? Slightly faster with the speed upgrade?
feel the same on colossi and Queen
* Queen vs air attack need upgrade on each Queen like Overseer (time and small resource for it which is important in early game but no impact in late game), to give more room on T/P air ambush and Z need to scout to counter the strategy.
* Infestor cannot move when it is invisible
* Stalker damage/range probably need 3rd tech upgrade, directly increase dps probably make it too strong in early game
* Mothership cannot be dragged by viper and bring back blackhole.
* chargelot tech move to 1st tech like zergling speed upgrade, so that it could counter Cyclone
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Interesting how not a single warning or ban has been given in this travesty of a LR thread.
This tournament was awesome to watch, the production was superb, the players brought their best and the crowd was amazing. Thank you to ESL who bring these top notch events still in 2024. The games in the final have been a lot closer than the result indicates, would have loved to see a few more maps between these two. Both were in top form the past few months and finally they met on the grand stage.
GZ Serral and looking forward to the new event this year in the summer.
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Northern Ireland26535 Posts
On February 12 2024 14:43 Glorfindelio wrote:
If Maru played anyone else besides Serral in the finals, we wouldn't even be having these conversations. He made Reynor and Dark both look basically helpless, and I don't doubt he would have beaten Solar (apologies to Shin, but you know).
Maru and Serral are both transcendent players, but I have to say the latter gets way, way more disrespect and hostility. While I find some of the gloating after his win distasteful, I guarantee you that if Maru had won, certain posters would have been absolutely beside themselves with joy--not so much that Maru won, but simply that Serral had lost (there is a difference, actually) and this thread would have gotten really, really ugly.
Just look at the discourse now--which is, frankly, comical. Serral just went 25-2? in the playoffs for MC and IEM and people were complaining about balance, tournament draws, scheduling, daylight savings, etc. before games were even played in some instances. If you resume g2 from replay 10 minutes in, I guarantee you any other Zerg in the world loses that game.
Many bring the whole ‘Terran master race’ mentality to bear, which has been around since the beginning of WoL. Like everything Terran needs to do is just so hard or so absolutely fair, no other races take any skill, and the only things worth valuing in a strategy game is pumping out units, microing them and dropping all over the place.
Even in very strong metas Terrans still are like this, at least Protoss Afficionados save their complaining for when their faction is getting rinsed (which is increasingly often).
TvZ for this tournament was 40.9%, 18-26 in total sets. Of which Serral on his own accounts for 9-0 in the Zerg column.
Rag went on a tear of delightfully cheesy aggressive scalp-taking in the group of very solid Terrans, but Bunny did strike back. Maru didn’t drop a set against Dark or Reynor, prior to Serral sweeping him. Heromarine topped a group with Solar in it, and Solar in turn was toppled by Clem in the playoffs.
That’s really not to me indicative of horrific balance, there’s a pretty decent trading there, and Serral was just in imperious outlier form this last few days. Neither would I claim it’s perfectly balanced either, but it’s not that bad surely?
When Maru was at god tier in TvZ and basically untouchable for a stretch, and other Terrans couldn’t replicate it, that’s held up as evidence the race is undercooked, maybe with a cheeky ‘just play like Maru’ sarcastically thrown in. When Serral is nigh-on untouchable but other Zergs are eminently beatable, people will still attribute it to the race being overtuned and not extend Serral the same kind of credit.
Apologies to my many Terran brethren on here who aren’t like that of course ^_^
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France12911 Posts
Maru was godlike on Radhused and still could not win it, it's kinda indicative. Overall Clem played well but Maru played even better and it was not enough, despite playing visibly better than Serral on Radhuset. Doesn't really matter since it's Starcraft 2 twilight year(s) anyways though, things ain't gonna change now
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Finland4581 Posts
On February 12 2024 17:24 Poopi wrote:
Maru was godlike on Radhused and still could not win it, it's kinda indicative. Overall Clem played well but Maru played even better and it was not enough, despite playing visibly better than Serral on Radhuset. Doesn't really matter since it's Starcraft 2 twilight year(s) anyways though, things ain't gonna change now
How was it that Maru played much better than Serral on Radhused? Serral was ahead the whole game and slowly bled Maru dry. Maru AND Serral were awesome in that game.
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On February 12 2024 13:47 TheLordofAwesome wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2024 13:18 geokilla wrote:On February 12 2024 13:07 TentativePanda wrote:On February 12 2024 06:12 ZAWGURN wrote:On February 12 2024 06:08 goldensail wrote:
Maru/Clem have taken Terran to the limit but they never stood a chance against someone who can make full use of the current Zerg arsenal. For years the community has complained about race balance but people continue to dismiss it as 'whine". This is not how competitive gaming should work, and why SC2 is losing its fan base. Well if there’s only one person who CAN make full use of that arsenal I think he deserves to win. Cause it’s clear no one else is doing that. Correct The zerg imba people just can't cope that Serral is the best ever. Yes, the best player ever is going to make a race look imba. Even if that race had the lowest number of qualified players in the tourney In my opinion, part of the reason we've had so many Zerg champions (and Serral's dominance) is partially due to balance and maps getting larger and larger, making it more advantageous for Zerg. Games are also routinely going past 15 minutes meaning whoever mines more tends to win. Whereas before, games were decided by who takes a better fight and had the better strategy. It is a real time strategy game after all. If the best of 7 was played on maps including King Sejong Station, Daybreak, Cloud Kingdom, Ohana, and Whirlwind, I think the tournament results and race balance would be significantly different on the current patch. With that said, given the state of the game right now, Serral is easily the best player in SC2 as of this moment. We can say how imba Zerg is and how weak Protoss is all we want. But for him to drop only 1 map all tournament is not easy and he definitely deserves props. Congratulations to Serral. This is pretty much how I feel. I also think that the LotV minerals/gas changes and the 12 worker start, which were two huge changes at the start of Legacy, both fundamentally favor zerg. It pretty much always takes zerg a little while to figure out a patch or new expansion. That's the nature of defensive, reactive play. Therefore the extent to which the economic changes were a huge buff to zerg wasn't recognized at the start of Legacy, because zergs were getting slaughtered right and left by new cheeses and units they didn't know how to scout or properly react to. And then there was the queen AA range buff in 2016 or 2017 that still exists today, and still makes early games so incredibly boring. Honestly, the balance council should nerf queen range. I could write a whole article on the 12 worker start, and maybe I will, since I think it is so deeply underappreciated EDIT: Props to Serral, he would obviously be a truly amazing player no matter what race he played. I still wish he would switch to protoss or terran for a while, and try to win big championships with them. Would be amazing viewing, at least. EDIT 2: Map picks before vetoes is the dumbest thing ever. I hope no tournament ever does this again. The entire point of a veto is that you can get rid of the absolute bottom of the barrel, garbage tier, totally imbalanced map. Which means vetoes should always come first, as every sane tournament has always done.
My biggest gripe with the 12 worker start is how it was supposed to "eliminate the boring early game", but it completely failed to do so. Instead of waiting for players to take their natural for the game to start, we just wait for their 3rd or even 4th base with how big the maps are. And it just killed all nuance in the early game (granted, the end of HotS was also starting to lean towards fewer and fewer early game plays, but still). Even proxy 2 rax, which went from a cheese to a macro build, is now completely gone.
And since people are a bit antsy in this thread, I will add this has nothing to do with this tournament's results. Oldies of this forum will know I've been whining about 12 worker start since it was in beta, and about maps since 2017.
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Northern Ireland26535 Posts
On February 12 2024 17:24 Poopi wrote:
Maru was godlike on Radhused and still could not win it, it's kinda indicative. Overall Clem played well but Maru played even better and it was not enough, despite playing visibly better than Serral on Radhuset. Doesn't really matter since it's Starcraft 2 twilight year(s) anyways though, things ain't gonna change now
It’s absolutely typical Maru to enter god mode on the map that’s godawful for him.
Shades of him dismantling Reynor with a defensive masterclass, only to abandon that on maps that were probably even better for that style.
Not being critical of Maru at all, but he didn’t bring that form in the other sets. Still very good but not at that level, add that to Serral throwing in some judicious curveballs and hey there lies the margins at this level.
Hell, Serral throwing in some different stuff, after just going for straight-up macro slugfests against Clem is probably indicative of Serral’s appraisal of pulling off the same against Maru
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On February 12 2024 09:52 Starcloud wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2024 09:08 NeWHoriZonS wrote:
Since last Katowice, Serral is 143-11 in series according to Aligulac.
Simply unreal. That really is unbelievable. Its really cool to get to witness this kind of greatness in our lifetime. PS. Somehow I have a feeling, that Serral is number 3 in the Miz-list, and then we can see the fireworks just begin. :D
I could see him being number 2 to Maru in that list before today, but I think after today even Miz needs to have him as #1.
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On the bright side, we will get a TL.net recap of IEM katowice, if Maru had won we would have got the radio silence that was the WTL finals. 
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Whilst I'm an unashamed Terran fanboy and almost always root for the Terran, I quite enjoyed it when Serral swept Maru 4-0 mainly because I never really liked Maru (if he wasn't the Terran champion, I would never like him at all), and for the fact that it was a non-Korean that won.
Anyways, my opinion on the matter is that whilst Maru is a great player, he probably does not have the true champion mentality. I think there's plenty of evidence of this, but the most glaring is the failure to win IEM 2023 when the win (and perhaps GOAT status?) was handed to him on a platter and he blew it.
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On February 12 2024 18:05 Azzur wrote:
Whilst I'm an unashamed Terran fanboy and almost always root for the Terran, I quite enjoyed it when Serral swept Maru 4-0 mainly because I never really liked Maru (if he wasn't the Terran champion, I would never like him at all), and for the fact that it was a non-Korean that won.
Anyways, my opinion on the matter is that whilst Maru is a great player, he probably does not have the true champion mentality. I think there's plenty of evidence of this, but the most glaring is the failure to win IEM 2023 when the win (and perhaps GOAT status?) was handed to him on a platter and he blew it.
What's the motivation behind cheering specifically for non-koreans in 2024?
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Northern Ireland26535 Posts
On February 12 2024 17:44 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2024 13:47 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 12 2024 13:18 geokilla wrote:On February 12 2024 13:07 TentativePanda wrote:On February 12 2024 06:12 ZAWGURN wrote:On February 12 2024 06:08 goldensail wrote:
Maru/Clem have taken Terran to the limit but they never stood a chance against someone who can make full use of the current Zerg arsenal. For years the community has complained about race balance but people continue to dismiss it as 'whine". This is not how competitive gaming should work, and why SC2 is losing its fan base. Well if there’s only one person who CAN make full use of that arsenal I think he deserves to win. Cause it’s clear no one else is doing that. Correct The zerg imba people just can't cope that Serral is the best ever. Yes, the best player ever is going to make a race look imba. Even if that race had the lowest number of qualified players in the tourney In my opinion, part of the reason we've had so many Zerg champions (and Serral's dominance) is partially due to balance and maps getting larger and larger, making it more advantageous for Zerg. Games are also routinely going past 15 minutes meaning whoever mines more tends to win. Whereas before, games were decided by who takes a better fight and had the better strategy. It is a real time strategy game after all. If the best of 7 was played on maps including King Sejong Station, Daybreak, Cloud Kingdom, Ohana, and Whirlwind, I think the tournament results and race balance would be significantly different on the current patch. With that said, given the state of the game right now, Serral is easily the best player in SC2 as of this moment. We can say how imba Zerg is and how weak Protoss is all we want. But for him to drop only 1 map all tournament is not easy and he definitely deserves props. Congratulations to Serral. This is pretty much how I feel. I also think that the LotV minerals/gas changes and the 12 worker start, which were two huge changes at the start of Legacy, both fundamentally favor zerg. It pretty much always takes zerg a little while to figure out a patch or new expansion. That's the nature of defensive, reactive play. Therefore the extent to which the economic changes were a huge buff to zerg wasn't recognized at the start of Legacy, because zergs were getting slaughtered right and left by new cheeses and units they didn't know how to scout or properly react to. And then there was the queen AA range buff in 2016 or 2017 that still exists today, and still makes early games so incredibly boring. Honestly, the balance council should nerf queen range. I could write a whole article on the 12 worker start, and maybe I will, since I think it is so deeply underappreciated EDIT: Props to Serral, he would obviously be a truly amazing player no matter what race he played. I still wish he would switch to protoss or terran for a while, and try to win big championships with them. Would be amazing viewing, at least. EDIT 2: Map picks before vetoes is the dumbest thing ever. I hope no tournament ever does this again. The entire point of a veto is that you can get rid of the absolute bottom of the barrel, garbage tier, totally imbalanced map. Which means vetoes should always come first, as every sane tournament has always done. My biggest gripe with the 12 worker start is how it was supposed to "eliminate the boring early game", but it completely failed to do so. Instead of waiting for players to take their natural for the game to start, we just wait for their 3rd or even 4th base with how big the maps are. And it just killed all nuance in the early game (granted, the end of HotS was also starting to lean towards fewer and fewer early game plays, but still). Even proxy 2 rax, which went from a cheese to a macro build, is now completely gone. And since people are a bit antsy in this thread, I will add this has nothing to do with this tournament's results. Oldies of this forum will know I've been whining about 12 worker start since it was in beta, and about maps since 2017.
Not quite as vociferously as Vision does prior to doing one of his ‘completely redesigning the game’ posts, but I do recall you have some history :p
I do agree, also as a consequence of that accelerated start, tech trees tend to be more fleshed out too, outside of dedicated cheese it’s hard to punish an opponent with a move out in that power to 3 base phase, so you may as well power on tech over army.
I think this is basically entirely to blame for $o$ falling off in Legacy. He did so much of his magic with tech feints and gaining an edge in a phase of the game that doesn’t really exist anymore.
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Northern Ireland26535 Posts
On February 12 2024 18:01 TheDougler wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2024 09:52 Starcloud wrote:On February 12 2024 09:08 NeWHoriZonS wrote:
Since last Katowice, Serral is 143-11 in series according to Aligulac.
Simply unreal. That really is unbelievable. Its really cool to get to witness this kind of greatness in our lifetime. PS. Somehow I have a feeling, that Serral is number 3 in the Miz-list, and then we can see the fireworks just begin. :D I could see him being number 2 to Maru in that list before today, but I think after today even Miz needs to have him as #1.
We should all really get some kind of sweepstake going before Miz drops it!
I’m going Maru > Rogue > Serral for my bet
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To all the map whiners, here are the Liquipedia stats:
TvZ winrates:
Hecate: 56,9%
Radhuset 50,8%
Alcyone: 50,2%
Hard Lead: 50,6%
Besided Hecate which is quite Terran favored all the maps are balanced pretty well.
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EPT
