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On February 15 2024 22:24 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
I'd like to see someone make one of those ELO visual comparison videos (with the line graph showing where the top players are) based on Aligulac or whatever, there's been some in the past but i want one including the last several years
You mean an updated version of something like this? If so I've also been wanting to see one, maybe with more people (top 20?).
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On February 16 2024 02:24 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2024 22:24 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
I want to see Wombat's top 10-15 GOAT list !
I want to see Poopi's too
I'm actually a bit sad that we got a GOAT article list in 2015, but only getting a new one now in 2024.
It feels like there could have been 1 around 2020, but we missed out on it
I'd like to see someone make one of those ELO visual comparison videos (with the line graph showing where the top players are) based on Aligulac or whatever, there's been some in the past but i want one including the last several years There was this: https://tl.net/forum/sc2-tournaments/544242-team-liquid-greatest-of-all-time-contest
Oh, i totally forgot about that! Thanks, that's really cool.
Sucks that herO beat Dark by 1 vote in the Ro32... idk how it was seeded, but sucks that Dark got knocked out so early, though I know he's missing some wins and Top 2-4 finishers at the time.
And Rogue didn't get his 3rd WC and more GSL wins til later, same with Serral still being "new" and not racking up more wins yet.
Other than that, the Top 10-15 are pretty good and I generally agree. Nestea and soO got really high wow haha. Nice to see Taeja up there, and Polt MMA right outside the top 10.
It'd be fun to do one of those again, maybe with just a Top 24 though, with group stages that seed into playoffs.
On February 16 2024 02:39 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2024 22:24 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
I want to see Wombat's top 10-15 GOAT list !
I want to see Poopi's too
I'm actually a bit sad that we got a GOAT article list in 2015, but only getting a new one now in 2024.
It feels like there could have been 1 around 2020, but we missed out on it
I'd like to see someone make one of those ELO visual comparison videos (with the line graph showing where the top players are) based on Aligulac or whatever, there's been some in the past but i want one including the last several years I may if TL survives the riots on its streets if Mvp isn’t on Miz’s list! If Miz’s has an attempt at some objective methodology that’s transparently communicated, mine would be just pure, pure vibes baby
Haha vibes are all good
Also, honestly i was feeling a bit of the opposite; I'm wondering whether TL will survive if Dark isn't on the list.
On February 16 2024 03:57 Mumei wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2024 22:24 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
I'd like to see someone make one of those ELO visual comparison videos (with the line graph showing where the top players are) based on Aligulac or whatever, there's been some in the past but i want one including the last several years You mean an updated version of something like this? If so I've also been wanting to see one, maybe with more people (top 20?).
Ah yes those! Though a line graph would be preferential, a bar chart works too.
I'd like one that includes 2010 to 2024, not sure if that's possible though (if the data is around etc.)
And yeah, it should be like at least the top 10 players currently at the time not just 5.
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On February 11 2024 13:32 Nezgar wrote:
Maps get brought up in almost every single one of these threads. And every time it's "Well, this current map pool is just bad for Protoss, we'll just have to wait for the next one to fix that" and then that next magical map pool that fixes that balance problem never comes.
Why that is the case is probably another discussion altogether. I personally blame it on every single map pool being almost identical standard maps, and if Protoss is just worse on standard maps then of course this will never change if we don't fundamentally change how we approach the map pool.
When people talk about experimental and crazy map contests, it's stuff like "a healing shrine in the corner of the map", as if that would change anything about how the maps are played.
The point is that all this talk about the map pool and the players just not showing up in shape or how Protoss X threw the game and so forth is happening in almost every thread.
Protoss won their last world championship in 2015 and their last premier tournament in 2022.
Before herO won his GSL Code S in late 2022, the last time a Protoss won that tournament was in 2017.
Quite a lot of great players have come, peaked and gone in that period of time, yet somehow they just don't seem to win the big tournaments. So this whole argument of "Look how bad this Protoss lineup is" just doesn't work when the results have been largely the same no matter how much you stack a tournament with great Protoss talent.
At some point we have to admit that there is a fundamental problem and miniscule balance changes just aren't going to cut it. PiG said that the last balance patch was a bold step in the right direction, but it was "bold" in much the same way that the finalists of the recent map making contest were "experimental".
Do some massive changes. If the pendulum swings in the opposite direction for a while, so be it. If we have to make arguments that the best Protoss players deserve to make it out of the group stage while players like SHIN make deep runs in a tournament and no one bats a fucking eye, it's time to shake the whole thing up.
Though that is just not going to happen. We'll hear the same excuses and arguments that we have been hearing for the last 5+ years and then the Void Ray gets a movement speed buff which then gets reverted a couple month later because MaxPax uses it to beat up other top tier players and we clearly cannot have that, now can we?
I am just tired of hearing how each and every tournament is an outlyer that can be blamed on factor X.
Old thread already, but very much this! Sc2 essentially becoming a two-race RTS is grueling from a viewers perspective. So far the sharp minds in the balance council didn't find the solutions over the years but I guess one can still hope.
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On February 11 2024 13:32 Nezgar wrote:
[...]
If we have to make arguments that the best Protoss players deserve to make it out of the group stage while players like SHIN make deep runs in a tournament and no one bats a fucking eye, it's time to shake the whole thing up.
[...]
I'm not engaging in the overall discussion and points, just wanna put this statement into perspective. Barring further details from your side what you mean with "deep runs" I'm looking at SHIN's premier and major runs mentioned on his Liquipedia since 2020 + this Katowice:
- Katowice '24: Advanced first in his group beating  Cure, Clem, Oliveira, and  Stats, then lost to  Dark
- AfreecaTV CC2: Advanced from a group with no Protoss beating Solar and Heromarine, beat MaxPax in Ro8 then lost to Serral
- WardiTV Winter Championship '23: Advanced first from his group not playing a Protoss, then beat Spirit Showtime and Skillous before losing to Cure and Dark
- Katowice '23: Advanced first from his group beating Dark Cure Oliveira and Neeb, then beat Serral and lost to Maru
- Code S '22 Season 3: Beat Creator in the first group stage and hero in the second group stage, both of who advanced alongside him, while also beating Ryung, Bunny, Solar, and Gumiho. Then beat Gumiho in Ro4 again and lost to Maru
- TSL 8: Beat Zest and Reynor, lost to Trap, then beat hero, Byun, and Solar before losing to Trap again
What I'm trying to say is, wtf are you even talking about? SHIN only make deep runs off of the back of Protoss players? You wanna discredit his Katowice runs because he dared to beat 2024 Stats or Neeb along the way?
Does your balance complaint not hold if you don't talk shit about a player? If you want to throw "players like ..." around then you better do your due fucking diligence, which you clearly didn't.
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On February 21 2024 23:46 GoloSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2024 13:32 Nezgar wrote:
[...]
If we have to make arguments that the best Protoss players deserve to make it out of the group stage while players like SHIN make deep runs in a tournament and no one bats a fucking eye, it's time to shake the whole thing up.
[...] I'm not engaging in the overall discussion and points, just wanna put this statement into perspective. Barring further details from your side what you mean with "deep runs" I'm looking at SHIN's premier and major runs mentioned on his Liquipedia since 2020 + this Katowice: - Katowice '24: Advanced first in his group beating Cure, Clem, Oliveira, and Stats, then lost to Dark - AfreecaTV CC2: Advanced from a group with no Protoss beating Solar and Heromarine, beat MaxPax in Ro8 then lost to Serral - WardiTV Winter Championship '23: Advanced first from his group not playing a Protoss, then beat Spirit Showtime and Skillous before losing to Cure and Dark - Katowice '23: Advanced first from his group beating Dark Cure Oliveira and Neeb, then beat Serral and lost to Maru - Code S '22 Season 3: Beat Creator in the first group stage and hero in the second group stage, both of who advanced alongside him, while also beating Ryung, Bunny, Solar, and Gumiho. Then beat Gumiho in Ro4 again and lost to Maru - TSL 8: Beat Zest and Reynor, lost to Trap, then beat hero, Byun, and Solar before losing to Trap again What I'm trying to say is, wtf are you even talking about? SHIN only make deep runs off of the back of Protoss players? You wanna discredit his Katowice runs because he dared to beat 2024 Stats or Neeb along the way? Does your balance complaint not hold if you don't talk shit about a player? If you want to throw "players like ..." around then you better do your due fucking diligence, which you clearly didn't.
It's a never-ending circle, Zerg players say their players are better because they have better results, but the results are (likely) boosted due to Zerg being too strong. If Protoss was as strong as Zerg who says one of the Protoss players who "aren't good enough to make the playoffs" wouldn't make those runs?
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On February 21 2024 23:51 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2024 23:46 GoloSC2 wrote:On February 11 2024 13:32 Nezgar wrote:
[...]
If we have to make arguments that the best Protoss players deserve to make it out of the group stage while players like SHIN make deep runs in a tournament and no one bats a fucking eye, it's time to shake the whole thing up.
[...] I'm not engaging in the overall discussion and points, just wanna put this statement into perspective. Barring further details from your side what you mean with "deep runs" I'm looking at SHIN's premier and major runs mentioned on his Liquipedia since 2020 + this Katowice: - Katowice '24: Advanced first in his group beating Cure, Clem, Oliveira, and Stats, then lost to Dark - AfreecaTV CC2: Advanced from a group with no Protoss beating Solar and Heromarine, beat MaxPax in Ro8 then lost to Serral - WardiTV Winter Championship '23: Advanced first from his group not playing a Protoss, then beat Spirit Showtime and Skillous before losing to Cure and Dark - Katowice '23: Advanced first from his group beating Dark Cure Oliveira and Neeb, then beat Serral and lost to Maru - Code S '22 Season 3: Beat Creator in the first group stage and hero in the second group stage, both of who advanced alongside him, while also beating Ryung, Bunny, Solar, and Gumiho. Then beat Gumiho in Ro4 again and lost to Maru - TSL 8: Beat Zest and Reynor, lost to Trap, then beat hero, Byun, and Solar before losing to Trap again What I'm trying to say is, wtf are you even talking about? SHIN only make deep runs off of the back of Protoss players? You wanna discredit his Katowice runs because he dared to beat 2024 Stats or Neeb along the way? Does your balance complaint not hold if you don't talk shit about a player? If you want to throw "players like ..." around then you better do your due fucking diligence, which you clearly didn't. It's a never-ending circle, Zerg players say their players are better because they have better results, but the results are (likely) boosted due to Zerg being too strong. If Protoss was as strong as Zerg who says one of the Protoss players who "aren't good enough to make the playoffs" wouldn't make those runs?
Which is why I showed that SHIN did not overproportionally beat Protoss players. In a lot of them he beat Dark, Solar or Reynor, even Serral, alongside a bunch of Terrans. So why is he taken as an example of a player that is only strong because Protoss sucks?
Edit: Also, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with Zerg being too strong. This is not a point against that claim. The way a player was singled out and disrespected on no grounds rubbed me the wrong way
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Northern Ireland26523 Posts
On February 21 2024 23:51 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2024 23:46 GoloSC2 wrote:On February 11 2024 13:32 Nezgar wrote:
[...]
If we have to make arguments that the best Protoss players deserve to make it out of the group stage while players like SHIN make deep runs in a tournament and no one bats a fucking eye, it's time to shake the whole thing up.
[...] I'm not engaging in the overall discussion and points, just wanna put this statement into perspective. Barring further details from your side what you mean with "deep runs" I'm looking at SHIN's premier and major runs mentioned on his Liquipedia since 2020 + this Katowice: - Katowice '24: Advanced first in his group beating Cure, Clem, Oliveira, and Stats, then lost to Dark - AfreecaTV CC2: Advanced from a group with no Protoss beating Solar and Heromarine, beat MaxPax in Ro8 then lost to Serral - WardiTV Winter Championship '23: Advanced first from his group not playing a Protoss, then beat Spirit Showtime and Skillous before losing to Cure and Dark - Katowice '23: Advanced first from his group beating Dark Cure Oliveira and Neeb, then beat Serral and lost to Maru - Code S '22 Season 3: Beat Creator in the first group stage and hero in the second group stage, both of who advanced alongside him, while also beating Ryung, Bunny, Solar, and Gumiho. Then beat Gumiho in Ro4 again and lost to Maru - TSL 8: Beat Zest and Reynor, lost to Trap, then beat hero, Byun, and Solar before losing to Trap again What I'm trying to say is, wtf are you even talking about? SHIN only make deep runs off of the back of Protoss players? You wanna discredit his Katowice runs because he dared to beat 2024 Stats or Neeb along the way? Does your balance complaint not hold if you don't talk shit about a player? If you want to throw "players like ..." around then you better do your due fucking diligence, which you clearly didn't. It's a never-ending circle, Zerg players say their players are better because they have better results, but the results are (likely) boosted due to Zerg being too strong. If Protoss was as strong as Zerg who says one of the Protoss players who "aren't good enough to make the playoffs" wouldn't make those runs?
Yeah but I mean folks don’t have to rag on SHIN to make that point. He’s long been a good player.
That argument is overrused to explain Protoss woes, but eventually it does become true. There really aren’t enough good Protoss players anymore
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On February 21 2024 23:51 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2024 23:46 GoloSC2 wrote:On February 11 2024 13:32 Nezgar wrote:
[...]
If we have to make arguments that the best Protoss players deserve to make it out of the group stage while players like SHIN make deep runs in a tournament and no one bats a fucking eye, it's time to shake the whole thing up.
[...] I'm not engaging in the overall discussion and points, just wanna put this statement into perspective. Barring further details from your side what you mean with "deep runs" I'm looking at SHIN's premier and major runs mentioned on his Liquipedia since 2020 + this Katowice: - Katowice '24: Advanced first in his group beating Cure, Clem, Oliveira, and Stats, then lost to Dark - AfreecaTV CC2: Advanced from a group with no Protoss beating Solar and Heromarine, beat MaxPax in Ro8 then lost to Serral - WardiTV Winter Championship '23: Advanced first from his group not playing a Protoss, then beat Spirit Showtime and Skillous before losing to Cure and Dark - Katowice '23: Advanced first from his group beating Dark Cure Oliveira and Neeb, then beat Serral and lost to Maru - Code S '22 Season 3: Beat Creator in the first group stage and hero in the second group stage, both of who advanced alongside him, while also beating Ryung, Bunny, Solar, and Gumiho. Then beat Gumiho in Ro4 again and lost to Maru - TSL 8: Beat Zest and Reynor, lost to Trap, then beat hero, Byun, and Solar before losing to Trap again What I'm trying to say is, wtf are you even talking about? SHIN only make deep runs off of the back of Protoss players? You wanna discredit his Katowice runs because he dared to beat 2024 Stats or Neeb along the way? Does your balance complaint not hold if you don't talk shit about a player? If you want to throw "players like ..." around then you better do your due fucking diligence, which you clearly didn't. It's a never-ending circle, Zerg players say their players are better because they have better results, but the results are (likely) boosted due to Zerg being too strong. If Protoss was as strong as Zerg who says one of the Protoss players who "aren't good enough to make the playoffs" wouldn't make those runs?
Sounds like what Terrans says all the time.
When terran loses its cause other race OP
When terrans win its cause terran players are better
When Mary loses the excuses are tenfold (jet lag, the schedule, and my favourite one is cause he “saving build” )
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EPT
