EPTKing of Battles 3 Groups & Main Event
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Athenau
571 Posts
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honorablemacroterran
188 Posts
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
On May 02 2022 02:39 Charoisaur wrote: Yes, creep spread is the biggest problem right now I think, it's just too oppressive in the hands of a top Zerg. And it doesn't really matter how well the terran tries to contain it, even Maru and Clem who at least equal Serral and Reynor in terms of multitasking speed are unable to really contain it. Yea, I think it's one of those things where 5 years ago the skill level was just lower, so creep being a balance issue was a non factor, there really weren't any Zergs that were getting that 3/4 map coating going. Fast forward to now when the skill level is higher then it's ever been, and like you said, it's just oppressive when it's in the hands of a top Zerg. | ||
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Die4Ever
United States17729 Posts
On May 02 2022 02:32 Beelzebub1 wrote: Kind of feel for the balance team right now, feels like they are in a tough spot. I feel like game balance could be a bit more influenced by maps, but unfortunately, the way maps are chosen in the TLMC kind of gets in the way of balance. The maps never seem to be chosen for actual balance reasons vs. which map looks the coolest. If maps were a bit more Terran and Protoss friendly I think it would swing the balance in a good direction. I personally think that creep itself may need looking at, particularly the rate of expansion. Makes little sense to me that Serral and Reynor can both have 75% of the map covered in creep by the 8 minute mark. The Queen change was bold but a move in the right direction, the balance team shouldn't be afraid to get aggressive. I mean seriously, one aggressive change and the ZvP meta has improved dramatically. I think slowing down the build time of the creep tumor might help, and maybe making creep and transfuse cost more energy on the queen | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
On May 02 2022 03:20 Die4Ever wrote: I think slowing down the build time of the creep tumor might help, and maybe making creep and transfuse cost more energy on the queen All good ideas imo, could be implemented solo or in combination of some kind. I would advocate for energy levels to stay the same, but for expansion from a dropped tumor to slow by 25%, and for the creep from a recently killed tumor to recede 25% faster. This would keep the same level of mechanical intensity required at the top level to both beat and spread the creep, but clearing it while advancing would be more rewarded. | ||
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goldensail
132 Posts
Oh and change the name of the game to Zergcraft. | ||
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
On May 02 2022 04:41 goldensail wrote: why bother having the group stage and round of 8/4? Just randomly pick 2 out of Serral Reynor Rogue Dark and have a final. Oh and change the name of the game to Zergcraft. No, no, that wouldn't be fair. You're forgetting the possible dark horse runs from Solar, Lambo, or Elazer. You just need to do a Zerg-only tournament so that every Zerg has a fair shot at the championship. | ||
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tigera6
3483 Posts
On May 02 2022 04:46 QOGQOG wrote: No, no, that wouldn't be fair. You're forgetting the possible dark horse runs from Solar, Lambo, or Elazer. You just need to do a Zerg-only tournament so that every Zerg has a fair shot at the championship. Or, put all the Zerg in one side of the bracket and the rest on the other side, then we get to guarantee a non ZvZ grand final. | ||
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Lokol18
51 Posts
[QUOTE]On May 02 2022 04:46 QOGQOG wrote: [QUOTE]On May 02 2022 04:41 goldensail wrote: why bother having the group stage and round of 8/4? Just randomly pick 2 out of Serral Reynor Rogue Dark and have a final. Or, put all the Zerg in one side of the bracket and the rest on the other side, then we get to guarantee a non ZvZ grand final.[/QUOTE] That would allow people to argue that zerg is fine because the final is not a zvz. I'd go the polar opposite and prevent any of the top four zergs from playing against each other in the ro8, just so they fill up the ro4 and the gf. Maybe then the gaslighting will stop | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
The problem has always been Queens. Awhile back I was chilling with a friend into MOBA. He's played RTS in the past (BW and WC3). He's still curious about the SC2 scene. So we casually switch between LoL and SC2 when we talk about the latest meta of the games. Anyway, one time we were just watching some weekender tourney that was live when we were chilling. After watching a few ZvP/T games in a row, he was like "Wow, how much does the Queen cost? Probably a lot of gas? They're like hydra spellcasters, you could play them like mass Orc shamans in the old imba versions of WC3 (but even more imba because you could produce them off your town hall)!" After I explained about the cost and versatility of Queens, he shakes his head, chuckles and goes on his playful teasing and ripping "WTF you still watching this game. The unit would be perma-banned in every game if it appeared as a hero on LoL..." And so on. Eventually he got bored, and we turned on some LoL highlights for the rest of the night. P.S. This is not a single anecdote, but reflects the sentiments of all of my friends who used to be die-hard RTS fans. Of course, there are inherent aspects of MOBA which just naturally appeals to casual viewers and gamers. But part of the factor also lies in the game designers' dedication to keep the meta fresh, diverse and balanced. I don't think RTS can ever be more popular than MOBA in this current social climate. But LoTV has certainly been an experiment gone wrong... | ||
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Harris1st
Germany7154 Posts
What the hell was that game 3 even? Serral was ahead basically all game long but had no idea what to do with that lead. Never have I seen him so indecisive | ||
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RDO
Italy60 Posts
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PtossParty
20 Posts
On May 02 2022 13:12 RKC wrote: Creep, transfuse, long AA range... The problem has always been Queens. Awhile back I was chilling with a friend into MOBA. He's played RTS in the past (BW and WC3). He's still curious about the SC2 scene. So we casually switch between LoL and SC2 when we talk about the latest meta of the games. Anyway, one time we were just watching some weekender tourney that was live when we were chilling. After watching a few ZvP/T games in a row, he was like "Wow, how much does the Queen cost? Probably a lot of gas? They're like hydra spellcasters, you could play them like mass Orc shamans in the old imba versions of WC3 (but even more imba because you could produce them off your town hall)!" After I explained about the cost and versatility of Queens, he shakes his head, chuckles and goes on his playful teasing and ripping "WTF you still watching this game. The unit would be perma-banned in every game if it appeared as a hero on LoL..." And so on. Eventually he got bored, and we turned on some LoL highlights for the rest of the night. P.S. This is not a single anecdote, but reflects the sentiments of all of my friends who used to be die-hard RTS fans. Of course, there are inherent aspects of MOBA which just naturally appeals to casual viewers and gamers. But part of the factor also lies in the game designers' dedication to keep the meta fresh, diverse and balanced. I don't think RTS can ever be more popular than MOBA in this current social climate. But LoTV has certainly been an experiment gone wrong... Queens are the answer to everything. They stop all forms of early aggression. Air attack? Queens have long AA air range and transfuse. Dedicated ground attack? Even unscouted queens + 1 round of units is usually enough. 2 medivac drop? Queens can even kill the medivacs. On top of all of this queens are good in nydus all ins. They are much too versatile. Would like to see something radical like taking away transfuse, reducing the AA range by 2 or eliminating it, and giving some early game AA unit. Force zerg to actually choose between drones, anti ground, and anti air. Not just Queens as the answer to everything. | ||
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tigera6
3483 Posts
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
On May 03 2022 03:17 tigera6 wrote: Imagine giving Terran an emergency versatile defensive tool like Warp-in/Shield Battery or Queen against early suprise attack from Zerg and Protoss. Maybe adding a spell into the CC that can drop empty Bunker anywhere on the field with vision. That's a nice idea. Maybe some kind of instant on demand detection and vision? Something you could get from Orbital maybe, keeping in theme with the main-building-safety-net thing. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16062 Posts
Maybe like 10 per Queen or so. I feel like the biggest problem is that clearing Creep often doesn't matter at all because Zerg will just immediately replace it with their 8 Queens. Increasing required energy wouldn't work imo because that would delay the very first Creep Tumor too much | ||
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dysenterymd
1250 Posts
On May 03 2022 05:23 Charoisaur wrote: I have an idea! What if every Queen has a limited set of creep tumors they can plant, like Vultures in BW? Maybe like 10 per Queen or so. I feel like the biggest problem is that clearing Creep often doesn't matter at all because Zerg will just immediately replace it with their 8 Queens. Increasing required energy wouldn't work imo because that would delay the very first Creep Tumor too much Not a bad idea, at least in TvZ I think the important thing is making late game creep spread less oppressive rather than messing too much with the early to mid game. Choosing between sacking creepless queens or keeping them around because of accumulated transfuse energy would also add some interesting decisions. | ||
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buzz_bender
445 Posts
On May 03 2022 05:23 Charoisaur wrote: I have an idea! What if every Queen has a limited set of creep tumors they can plant, like Vultures in BW? Maybe like 10 per Queen or so. I feel like the biggest problem is that clearing Creep often doesn't matter at all because Zerg will just immediately replace it with their 8 Queens. Increasing required energy wouldn't work imo because that would delay the very first Creep Tumor too much Or just decrease the mana pool for Queens to 100, meaning that the Zerg player will have to choose whether to place creep or transfuse, and can't do both all the time. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
(Cue eerie opera music and a certain Sith Lord chuckling "Ironic...") | ||
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On May 03 2022 13:35 RKC wrote: What if Queens cannot transfuse each other? (Cue eerie opera music and a certain Sith Lord chuckling "Ironic...") " From my point of view, the void ray are evil!" | ||
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