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On May 02 2022 00:50 sirok_ wrote:
Zergs have been on top since late 2019.
Despite the addition of multiple minor Zerg nerfs and new maps.
But who knows, maybe the balance "council of the wise" will get things back on track by agreeing to add 0.20 second to lurker burrow time or raise baneling prices by 5 minerals before 2023.
I'm not sure if the top Zerg in the council would agree to such daring changes, but we can hope.
They are probably talking about Ghost and Carrier nerfs right now
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zerg players have been the world champion since 2017 and zerg players have won the Katowice 5 times in a row with 4 different zerg players
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France13003 Posts
Amazing victory from Reynor, kinda disappointing from Serral but he got a bit taxed in the Maru series.
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Another boring predictable zerg EZ victory, not gonna even bother watching the replays
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Sure, I watch one game from the Ro4 and its Marus win. Dammit...
Glad to see the two best players at the moment in the finals again, bit sad Serral bonked it so hard. Oh well, feels like he always drops off a bit in the "Off"season. Really curious though if Reynor can keep this level up and how Clem will do throughout the year, especially offline
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Kind of feel for the balance team right now, feels like they are in a tough spot.
I feel like game balance could be a bit more influenced by maps, but unfortunately, the way maps are chosen in the TLMC kind of gets in the way of balance.
The maps never seem to be chosen for actual balance reasons vs. which map looks the coolest.
If maps were a bit more Terran and Protoss friendly I think it would swing the balance in a good direction.
I personally think that creep itself may need looking at, particularly the rate of expansion. Makes little sense to me that Serral and Reynor can both have 75% of the map covered in creep by the 8 minute mark. The Queen change was bold but a move in the right direction, the balance team shouldn't be afraid to get aggressive.
I mean seriously, one aggressive change and the ZvP meta has improved dramatically.
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On May 02 2022 02:32 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Kind of feel for the balance team right now, feels like they are in a tough spot.
I feel like game balance could be a bit more influenced by maps, but unfortunately, the way maps are chosen in the TLMC kind of gets in the way of balance.
The maps never seem to be chosen for actual balance reasons vs. which map looks the coolest.
If maps were a bit more Terran and Protoss friendly I think it would swing the balance in a good direction.
I personally think that creep itself may need looking at, particularly the rate of expansion. Makes little sense to me that Serral and Reynor can both have 75% of the map covered in creep by the 8 minute mark. The Queen change was bold but a move in the right direction, the balance team shouldn't be afraid to get aggressive.
I mean seriously, one aggressive change and the ZvP meta has improved dramatically.
Yes, creep spread is the biggest problem right now I think, it's just too oppressive in the hands of a top Zerg.
And it doesn't really matter how well the terran tries to contain it, even Maru and Clem who at least equal Serral and Reynor in terms of multitasking speed are unable to really contain it.
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If the last three years of Zerg gaslighting have told us anything it's that there's no chance we're getting meaningful balance changes in when any Zergs on the community council will just pretend like nothing's wrong.
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As long as the Zerg players remain the idols of the "official" narrative I remain pessimistic that anything meaningful will be done without meaningful organization in the community independent of the established channels.
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On May 02 2022 02:39 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2022 02:32 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Kind of feel for the balance team right now, feels like they are in a tough spot.
I feel like game balance could be a bit more influenced by maps, but unfortunately, the way maps are chosen in the TLMC kind of gets in the way of balance.
The maps never seem to be chosen for actual balance reasons vs. which map looks the coolest.
If maps were a bit more Terran and Protoss friendly I think it would swing the balance in a good direction.
I personally think that creep itself may need looking at, particularly the rate of expansion. Makes little sense to me that Serral and Reynor can both have 75% of the map covered in creep by the 8 minute mark. The Queen change was bold but a move in the right direction, the balance team shouldn't be afraid to get aggressive.
I mean seriously, one aggressive change and the ZvP meta has improved dramatically. Yes, creep spread is the biggest problem right now I think, it's just too oppressive in the hands of a top Zerg. And it doesn't really matter how well the terran tries to contain it, even Maru and Clem who at least equal Serral and Reynor in terms of multitasking speed are unable to really contain it.
Yea, I think it's one of those things where 5 years ago the skill level was just lower, so creep being a balance issue was a non factor, there really weren't any Zergs that were getting that 3/4 map coating going.
Fast forward to now when the skill level is higher then it's ever been, and like you said, it's just oppressive when it's in the hands of a top Zerg.
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On May 02 2022 02:32 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Kind of feel for the balance team right now, feels like they are in a tough spot.
I feel like game balance could be a bit more influenced by maps, but unfortunately, the way maps are chosen in the TLMC kind of gets in the way of balance.
The maps never seem to be chosen for actual balance reasons vs. which map looks the coolest.
If maps were a bit more Terran and Protoss friendly I think it would swing the balance in a good direction.
I personally think that creep itself may need looking at, particularly the rate of expansion. Makes little sense to me that Serral and Reynor can both have 75% of the map covered in creep by the 8 minute mark. The Queen change was bold but a move in the right direction, the balance team shouldn't be afraid to get aggressive.
I mean seriously, one aggressive change and the ZvP meta has improved dramatically.
I think slowing down the build time of the creep tumor might help, and maybe making creep and transfuse cost more energy on the queen
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On May 02 2022 03:20 Die4Ever wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2022 02:32 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Kind of feel for the balance team right now, feels like they are in a tough spot.
I feel like game balance could be a bit more influenced by maps, but unfortunately, the way maps are chosen in the TLMC kind of gets in the way of balance.
The maps never seem to be chosen for actual balance reasons vs. which map looks the coolest.
If maps were a bit more Terran and Protoss friendly I think it would swing the balance in a good direction.
I personally think that creep itself may need looking at, particularly the rate of expansion. Makes little sense to me that Serral and Reynor can both have 75% of the map covered in creep by the 8 minute mark. The Queen change was bold but a move in the right direction, the balance team shouldn't be afraid to get aggressive.
I mean seriously, one aggressive change and the ZvP meta has improved dramatically. I think slowing down the build time of the creep tumor might help, and maybe making creep and transfuse cost more energy on the queen
All good ideas imo, could be implemented solo or in combination of some kind.
I would advocate for energy levels to stay the same, but for expansion from a dropped tumor to slow by 25%, and for the creep from a recently killed tumor to recede 25% faster. This would keep the same level of mechanical intensity required at the top level to both beat and spread the creep, but clearing it while advancing would be more rewarded.
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why bother having the group stage and round of 8/4? Just randomly pick 2 out of Serral Reynor Rogue Dark and have a final.
Oh and change the name of the game to Zergcraft.
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On May 02 2022 04:41 goldensail wrote:
why bother having the group stage and round of 8/4? Just randomly pick 2 out of Serral Reynor Rogue Dark and have a final.
Oh and change the name of the game to Zergcraft.
No, no, that wouldn't be fair. You're forgetting the possible dark horse runs from Solar, Lambo, or Elazer. You just need to do a Zerg-only tournament so that every Zerg has a fair shot at the championship.
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On May 02 2022 04:46 QOGQOG wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2022 04:41 goldensail wrote:
why bother having the group stage and round of 8/4? Just randomly pick 2 out of Serral Reynor Rogue Dark and have a final.
Oh and change the name of the game to Zergcraft. No, no, that wouldn't be fair. You're forgetting the possible dark horse runs from Solar, Lambo, or Elazer. You just need to do a Zerg-only tournament so that every Zerg has a fair shot at the championship.
Or, put all the Zerg in one side of the bracket and the rest on the other side, then we get to guarantee a non ZvZ grand final.
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[QUOTE]On May 02 2022 10:39 tigera6 wrote:
[QUOTE]On May 02 2022 04:46 QOGQOG wrote:
[QUOTE]On May 02 2022 04:41 goldensail wrote:
why bother having the group stage and round of 8/4? Just randomly pick 2 out of Serral Reynor Rogue Dark and have a final.
Or, put all the Zerg in one side of the bracket and the rest on the other side, then we get to guarantee a non ZvZ grand final.[/QUOTE]
That would allow people to argue that zerg is fine because the final is not a zvz. I'd go the polar opposite and prevent any of the top four zergs from playing against each other in the ro8, just so they fill up the ro4 and the gf. Maybe then the gaslighting will stop
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Creep, transfuse, long AA range...
The problem has always been Queens.
Awhile back I was chilling with a friend into MOBA. He's played RTS in the past (BW and WC3). He's still curious about the SC2 scene. So we casually switch between LoL and SC2 when we talk about the latest meta of the games. Anyway, one time we were just watching some weekender tourney that was live when we were chilling. After watching a few ZvP/T games in a row, he was like "Wow, how much does the Queen cost? Probably a lot of gas? They're like hydra spellcasters, you could play them like mass Orc shamans in the old imba versions of WC3 (but even more imba because you could produce them off your town hall)!" After I explained about the cost and versatility of Queens, he shakes his head, chuckles and goes on his playful teasing and ripping "WTF you still watching this game. The unit would be perma-banned in every game if it appeared as a hero on LoL..." And so on. Eventually he got bored, and we turned on some LoL highlights for the rest of the night.
P.S. This is not a single anecdote, but reflects the sentiments of all of my friends who used to be die-hard RTS fans. Of course, there are inherent aspects of MOBA which just naturally appeals to casual viewers and gamers. But part of the factor also lies in the game designers' dedication to keep the meta fresh, diverse and balanced. I don't think RTS can ever be more popular than MOBA in this current social climate. But LoTV has certainly been an experiment gone wrong...
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Reynor put the triple Inception into Serral's head lol.
What the hell was that game 3 even? Serral was ahead basically all game long but had no idea what to do with that lead. Never have I seen him so indecisive
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Great tournament and great games. Good production too. Besides, I'm happy that Reynor won. I feel like, for Reynor, having the CCW, this tournament, and now the WTL will be a good way for him to keep himself away from longer breaks and stay really competitive all season long.
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On May 02 2022 13:12 RKC wrote:
Creep, transfuse, long AA range...
The problem has always been Queens.
Awhile back I was chilling with a friend into MOBA. He's played RTS in the past (BW and WC3). He's still curious about the SC2 scene. So we casually switch between LoL and SC2 when we talk about the latest meta of the games. Anyway, one time we were just watching some weekender tourney that was live when we were chilling. After watching a few ZvP/T games in a row, he was like "Wow, how much does the Queen cost? Probably a lot of gas? They're like hydra spellcasters, you could play them like mass Orc shamans in the old imba versions of WC3 (but even more imba because you could produce them off your town hall)!" After I explained about the cost and versatility of Queens, he shakes his head, chuckles and goes on his playful teasing and ripping "WTF you still watching this game. The unit would be perma-banned in every game if it appeared as a hero on LoL..." And so on. Eventually he got bored, and we turned on some LoL highlights for the rest of the night.
P.S. This is not a single anecdote, but reflects the sentiments of all of my friends who used to be die-hard RTS fans. Of course, there are inherent aspects of MOBA which just naturally appeals to casual viewers and gamers. But part of the factor also lies in the game designers' dedication to keep the meta fresh, diverse and balanced. I don't think RTS can ever be more popular than MOBA in this current social climate. But LoTV has certainly been an experiment gone wrong...
Queens are the answer to everything. They stop all forms of early aggression. Air attack? Queens have long AA air range and transfuse. Dedicated ground attack? Even unscouted queens + 1 round of units is usually enough. 2 medivac drop? Queens can even kill the medivacs.
On top of all of this queens are good in nydus all ins. They are much too versatile. Would like to see something radical like taking away transfuse, reducing the AA range by 2 or eliminating it, and giving some early game AA unit. Force zerg to actually choose between drones, anti ground, and anti air. Not just Queens as the answer to everything.
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EPT
