Happy to announce the result of the GSL style group selection undertaken by Maru and our qualified players!
The selection process (displayed above) was via a snake draft starting with Maru as the top seed and defending champion. Maru then had a swap option at the end which he used, replacing MaxPax's choice Creator with Lambo who was Classic's choice!
Main event starts in just two days so be sure to tune in!
Our tournament will also be on Matcherino! Check it out and support it if you feel like it.
Replay pack for the entire tournament (Main event and casted qualifier matches) available at $10 via the matcherino page. KOB works with a limited budget - we appreciate any support in purchasing our replay pack where proceeds go towards production & staff costs.
We are pleased to announce a unique experience for King of Battles 3 where viewers can be rewarded with digital cards featuring most of the qualified players to commemorate this tournament simply by watching! Here is a sample of Maru alongside our King of Battles mascot! Once collected, you can get a digital version to be set as your android/iphone/desktop wallpaper!
If they can be bothered to show up in good form I wonder which Zerg will win this event. Hopefully a KR Zerg so what happened at IEM doesn't turn into a trend. Not that I'll bother watching unless I see a no Zerg top 4 or finals.
Interesting group selection. Think it must be true that Maru hates TvT despite being so darn good at it. Otherwise it makes no sense to pick Maxpax with his TvP being so shit nowadays when he had Special and Clem there, both of whom he would beat quite easily. Also Lambo or Solar&Ragnarok his favorite victims.
As for the tournament hoping for some fun games. Results dont matter in this game state. Chances for win are basically: 30%Serral, 29%Rogue, 20%Dark, 20%Reynor, 1%Anyone else
On April 27 2022 04:47 MarianoSC2 wrote: Interesting group selection. Think it must be true that Maru hates TvT despite being so darn good at it. Otherwise it makes no sense to pick Maxpax with his TvP being so shit nowadays when he had Special and Clem there, both of whom he would beat quite easily. Also Lambo or Solar&Ragnarok his favorite victims.
As for the tournament hoping for some fun games. Results dont matter in this game state. Chances for win are basically: 30%Serral, 29%Rogue, 20%Dark, 20%Reynor, 1%Anyone else
I think he did Creator a favor by letting him play 1 day after the GSL Ro4 finish for some rest. And group D is more managable than group C, swapping Clem would be the ultimate boss move but also kinda disrespectful to Clem. And I would give Dark 25%, Reynor 15% given how his form has gone down quite a bit.
I'm kind of amused at how all the open qualifier events in the last year stack up to have virtually all of the aligulac top 12 or so. Definitely fun for the viewers; dunno what it implies about the state of the scene tho
Similarly shocked as others that Maru would NOT pick Clem and take Reynor instead
Maru may be quite close to Creator or just doesn't want facing off with another Korean. That seems to be the main reason behind the swap, rather than player form and skill.
The pool of top players is small and stagnant, and the skill gap between them and mid-tier players is as wide as ever. Why is that even surprising? Which doesn't speak well of the state of the scene. Is this even a debatable point?
On April 27 2022 20:30 Waxangel wrote: I'm kind of amused at how all the open qualifier events in the last year stack up to have virtually all of the aligulac top 12 or so.
Yeah If every event would have 4 spots via qualifiers and just straight up invite the Rest from Aligulac Ranking, there would have been little to no difference in the participating Players list. Upsets happen way less frequently, also Aligulac seems pretty spot on in predicting qualifier chances, where everyone has multiple shots at least
On April 27 2022 04:47 MarianoSC2 wrote: Chances for win are basically: 30%Serral, 29%Rogue, 20%Dark, 20%Reynor, 1%Anyone else
that's actually accurate
Maru + Clem + Trap + Cure + Solar = 1%?
Honestly with Marus form that 1% is mostly Trap. Maru maybe 0.2% and the rest are less than 0.1%. There is always a chance but Clem Cure Solar are so close to 0 its basically impossible. Solar has the best shot of them because he is a Zerg but only slightly.
On April 27 2022 20:30 Waxangel wrote: I'm kind of amused at how all the open qualifier events in the last year stack up to have virtually all of the aligulac top 12 or so. Definitely fun for the viewers; dunno what it implies about the state of the scene tho
Similarly shocked as others that Maru would NOT pick Clem and take Reynor instead
Great idea. It's kinda imba that a building or ability which gives vision remains invisible itself. Imagine a scanner tower being invisible!
There's of course the observer, but observers aren't free.
Or maybe creep tumours only turn invisible after a period of time, say, after 2-3 minutes? Complicated I know, but the opponent should be given some even chance of taking them down.
On April 27 2022 20:30 Waxangel wrote: I'm kind of amused at how all the open qualifier events in the last year stack up to have virtually all of the aligulac top 12 or so. Definitely fun for the viewers; dunno what it implies about the state of the scene tho
Similarly shocked as others that Maru would NOT pick Clem and take Reynor instead
Yeah. In BW, if you want creep on the whole map, you have to build hatcheries or colonies everywhere. I think that making it so only active tumors are visible wouldn't be so drastic of a change, as it still requires you to actively work against creep spread, and still spend scans/have an observer for older creep tumors.
Sorry for derailing the post, but seeing all the talk of "zerg 99% chance to win this tournament" made me want to say something. Very hyped for this event.
Some Zergs are excellent with creep spread (Serral?). It's a great multitasking skill.
But to me, it's even more awesome to see a Zerg with lesser creep spread skill (Rogue?) relying on game-sense intuition, good reflexes and creative spontaneity to beat down Terran and Toss timings and cheeses.
Definitely makes games more interesting and dynamic to watch when Zerg doesn't have a semi map hack!
On April 28 2022 14:49 RKC wrote: Some Zergs are excellent with creep spread (Serral?). It's a great multitasking skill.
But to me, it's even more awesome to see a Zerg with lesser creep spread skill (Rogue?) relying on game-sense intuition, good reflexes and creative spontaneity to beat down Terran and Toss timings and cheeses.
Definitely makes games more interesting and dynamic to watch when Zerg doesn't have a semi map hack!
You are right. But these strategies are underappreciated lately, because some love to see 'perfect' dominating play from certain individual player or back and forth kind of situation.
On April 28 2022 14:49 RKC wrote: Some Zergs are excellent with creep spread (Serral?). It's a great multitasking skill.
But to me, it's even more awesome to see a Zerg with lesser creep spread skill (Rogue?) relying on game-sense intuition, good reflexes and creative spontaneity to beat down Terran and Toss timings and cheeses.
Definitely makes games more interesting and dynamic to watch when Zerg doesn't have a semi map hack!
All the top players have ridiculous creep spread to be fair.
I don’t think Blizzard quite accounted for how far people could stretch it.
@Telephone aye not a bad idea, although it’s a difficult balancing act.
The overall spread across big chunks of the map and the difficulty pushing it back is definitely an issue, although one that becomes a bigger and bigger issue the longer the game runs.
I wonder if making active tumours visible is too much of a nerf in the early/midgame, and making certain pushes too hard to hold, and not enough of a nerf later on.
It’s not so much tumour visibility that prevents Terran and Toss pushing it back in the latter stages, those races aren’t mobile enough to defend their bases while pushing back all the various creep highways.
Perhaps just outright slowing it, or slowing it the further it gets from hatcheries might meaningfully nerf it late game while not leaving Zerg too vulnerable early, but rate slowing at x distance is a little wonky for my tastes.
On April 28 2022 14:49 RKC wrote: Some Zergs are excellent with creep spread (Serral?). It's a great multitasking skill.
But to me, it's even more awesome to see a Zerg with lesser creep spread skill (Rogue?) relying on game-sense intuition, good reflexes and creative spontaneity to beat down Terran and Toss timings and cheeses.
Definitely makes games more interesting and dynamic to watch when Zerg doesn't have a semi map hack!
Rogue's creep spread and multitasking in general are bonkers good. I've seen him creep to nearly his opponent's 3rd with good coverage of his whole side by the 10 minute mark when he shuts down early hellions.
Regarding creep changes: Creep is a strange mechanic. It scales insanely hard with multitasking speed. So at lower levels, it's just hard to maintain and makes Zerg armies feel a bit meh. But at Rogue/Dark/Serral/Reynor levels, it's clearly a bit too good with Zerg locking down total map control at the top tier of play if they get any momentum.
Maybe there should be two kinds of creep tumours? Very good, wide radius ones directly from queens, and weak, small radius, slower spreading secondary tumours. This way you *need* to risk your queens and have units across the front of creep to spread it fast.
Alternatively, tumors in range of a hatchery spread further, tumors not in range of a hatch spread less far? (This also makes the early game tumors more of a `critical point' where early aggression can make a more substantial difference. Which is always fun).
On April 28 2022 14:49 RKC wrote: Some Zergs are excellent with creep spread (Serral?). It's a great multitasking skill.
But to me, it's even more awesome to see a Zerg with lesser creep spread skill (Rogue?) relying on game-sense intuition, good reflexes and creative spontaneity to beat down Terran and Toss timings and cheeses.
Definitely makes games more interesting and dynamic to watch when Zerg doesn't have a semi map hack!
Rogue's creep spread and multitasking in general are bonkers good. I've seen him creep to nearly his opponent's 3rd with good coverage of his whole side by the 10 minute mark when he shuts down early hellions.
Regarding creep changes: Creep is a strange mechanic. It scales insanely hard with multitasking speed. So at lower levels, it's just hard to maintain and makes Zerg armies feel a bit meh. But at Rogue/Dark/Serral/Reynor levels, it's clearly a bit too good with Zerg locking down total map control at the top tier of play if they get any momentum.
Maybe there should be two kinds of creep tumours? Very good, wide radius ones directly from queens, and weak, small radius, slower spreading secondary tumours. This way you *need* to risk your queens and have units across the front of creep to spread it fast.
Alternatively, tumors in range of a hatchery spread further, tumors not in range of a hatch spread less far? (This also makes the early game tumors more of a `critical point' where early aggression can make a more substantial difference. Which is always fun).
I've been thinking recently that Creep Tumors shouldn't be able to spawn additional Creep Tumors. It would mean that Zerg would have to truly control an area in order to spread Creep because their Queens would be at risk whenever they approach the frontier, which should give the other races more time before Creep takes over the map. It could be too drastic of a change in the long run, but it's definitely something I would like to see tested!
On April 28 2022 14:49 RKC wrote: Some Zergs are excellent with creep spread (Serral?). It's a great multitasking skill.
But to me, it's even more awesome to see a Zerg with lesser creep spread skill (Rogue?) relying on game-sense intuition, good reflexes and creative spontaneity to beat down Terran and Toss timings and cheeses.
Definitely makes games more interesting and dynamic to watch when Zerg doesn't have a semi map hack!
Rogue's creep spread and multitasking in general are bonkers good. I've seen him creep to nearly his opponent's 3rd with good coverage of his whole side by the 10 minute mark when he shuts down early hellions.
Regarding creep changes: Creep is a strange mechanic. It scales insanely hard with multitasking speed. So at lower levels, it's just hard to maintain and makes Zerg armies feel a bit meh. But at Rogue/Dark/Serral/Reynor levels, it's clearly a bit too good with Zerg locking down total map control at the top tier of play if they get any momentum.
Maybe there should be two kinds of creep tumours? Very good, wide radius ones directly from queens, and weak, small radius, slower spreading secondary tumours. This way you *need* to risk your queens and have units across the front of creep to spread it fast.
Alternatively, tumors in range of a hatchery spread further, tumors not in range of a hatch spread less far? (This also makes the early game tumors more of a `critical point' where early aggression can make a more substantial difference. Which is always fun).
Surprised you mention Dark and creep, I swear he plays cavebob in ZvT with fewer tumors than queens and still wins
On April 29 2022 01:11 tigera6 wrote: Forget Serral vs Maru, its Maru vs Reynor is the best TvZ rivalry in recent LoTV. Those 2 truly duke in out every single time they meet.
It's just aggression vs aggression. When it's Maru vs Serral, it becomes control vs control towards late-game.
Man, with the caliber of players, and the insanely high level of play, I really wish KoB would give out more ESL points and prize money!
Damn, Rogue also had another matches right after exhausting GSL series and unfortunately, I may not be able to watch live again. Hopefully he did not drunk after good ZvZ series against Dark today.
Maru's understanding in game 2 is just insane. Switching to hellbats and getting blue flame on such low eco knowing Reynor was just getting lings, making two ravens at the end to patrol either side of his army and make sure no infectors get in. Keeping his production alive while his mining bases and army are on the opposite corner of the map is something no other terran could balance.
It's like he plays those 1/1000 games on a regular basis.
On April 29 2022 01:11 tigera6 wrote: Forget Serral vs Maru, its Maru vs Reynor is the best TvZ rivalry in recent LoTV. Those 2 truly duke in out every single time they meet.
It's just aggression vs aggression. When it's Maru vs Serral, it becomes control vs control towards late-game.
Man, with the caliber of players, and the insanely high level of play, I really wish KoB would give out more ESL points and prize money!
So do we! We tried to find more sponsors to bring it up to premier status, but it didn't quite happen this time. Hopefully in the future?
On April 29 2022 01:11 tigera6 wrote: Forget Serral vs Maru, its Maru vs Reynor is the best TvZ rivalry in recent LoTV. Those 2 truly duke in out every single time they meet.
It's just aggression vs aggression. When it's Maru vs Serral, it becomes control vs control towards late-game.
Man, with the caliber of players, and the insanely high level of play, I really wish KoB would give out more ESL points and prize money!
So do we! We tried to find more sponsors to bring it up to premier status, but it didn't quite happen this time. Hopefully in the future?
I couldn't watch the Group B matches. The replay stopped after Reynor vs Lambo ended.
On April 29 2022 01:11 tigera6 wrote: Forget Serral vs Maru, its Maru vs Reynor is the best TvZ rivalry in recent LoTV. Those 2 truly duke in out every single time they meet.
It's just aggression vs aggression. When it's Maru vs Serral, it becomes control vs control towards late-game.
Man, with the caliber of players, and the insanely high level of play, I really wish KoB would give out more ESL points and prize money!
So do we! We tried to find more sponsors to bring it up to premier status, but it didn't quite happen this time. Hopefully in the future?
I couldn't watch the Group B matches. The replay stopped after Reynor vs Lambo ended.
I couldn't catch the games yesterday because I turned on the wrong stream at the wrong time. I know the schedule is posted in the link to the OP. But can't the schedule be stated more clearly in the OP itself? Maybe I was just too lazy to scan for the small print. But some others here are also equally confused.
Or better still, why can't a single stream be used for each day? Or both streams show the matches? That would avoid the need to keep track of each daily schedule and switch between streams.
Sorry to come across as demanding. But it's a shame for such a high level tourney to lose viewership (from noobs such as myself) just because of such technicalities!
Why is Group D played before Group C? Group C has three Koreans plus Special. Isn't Special based in Korea too? If not, I suppose the later timing make sense, to accommodate NA time zone.
On April 29 2022 21:26 RKC wrote: Why is Group D played before Group C? Group C has three Koreans plus Special. Isn't Special based in Korea too? If not, I suppose the later timing make sense, to accommodate NA time zone.
Would it truly make sense, though? To accomodate one player vs 3?
On April 29 2022 21:26 RKC wrote: Why is Group D played before Group C? Group C has three Koreans plus Special. Isn't Special based in Korea too? If not, I suppose the later timing make sense, to accommodate NA time zone.
Would it truly make sense, though? To accomodate one player vs 3?
Personally, no. But that's how foreign tourneys seem to operate...
It's probably gonna bea rematch of Katowice, but I like that bracket for Cure. Tvt vs Clem is pretty good, Reynor isn't impervious to dropping a serie and then there's realistic chance that Serral get trip in one of the zvz
Great matchups. herO arguably has the best PvZ playstyle right now. Pity he didn't advance further in GSL.
Funny how Creator and Trap fared worst than herO and even Classic. Maybe it's perception bias, but Toss players just seem so much more volatile (and there's still Zest and Parting). A Toss can play out in his mind in one tourney, but bomb out in the next tourney few days later. Some people will say that's because there's no real S-tier Toss players and they're all pretty much around the same skill level. Maybe. But another reason is that their race design is just inherently volatile as compared to Zerg and Terran.
Don't mean to start a balance debate, just felt like making an observation.
On April 30 2022 14:57 RKC wrote: Great matchups. herO arguably has the best PvZ playstyle right now. Pity he didn't advance further in GSL.
Funny how Creator and Trap fared worst than herO and even Classic. Maybe it's perception bias, but Toss players just seem so much more volatile (and there's still Zest and Parting). A Toss can play out in his mind in one tourney, but bomb out in the next tourney few days later. Some people will say that's because there's no real S-tier Toss players and they're all pretty much around the same skill level. Maybe. But another reason is that their race design is just inherently volatile as compared to Zerg and Terran.
Don't mean to start a balance debate, just felt like making an observation.
Well in Creator's case I think it's fair to say he's just focused on GSL. Like I know people don't like those kind of comments, but the guy is in his first GSL final ever and looks fantastic there and then outside of GSL he just performs like regular Creator. And even Rogue almost got 4-0'd out of this tournament in his group.
Part of what makes herO so fun to watch is that he just plays with reckless abandon. He throws himself into his opponent full force, even when he probably shouldn't. It's gameplay on a knife's edge - herO finished last in his GSL group but he could have won it just as well.
Honestly, I think offline play is the most fair. It reduces the massive amount of jet lag players have when traveling. I mean the 2022 Katowice results is clear evidence of when players haven't traveled in years, they will 100% suffer from jet lag and their cognition and mechanical skills suffer.
On April 30 2022 14:57 RKC wrote: Great matchups. herO arguably has the best PvZ playstyle right now. Pity he didn't advance further in GSL.
Funny how Creator and Trap fared worst than herO and even Classic. Maybe it's perception bias, but Toss players just seem so much more volatile (and there's still Zest and Parting). A Toss can play out in his mind in one tourney, but bomb out in the next tourney few days later. Some people will say that's because there's no real S-tier Toss players and they're all pretty much around the same skill level. Maybe. But another reason is that their race design is just inherently volatile as compared to Zerg and Terran.
Don't mean to start a balance debate, just felt like making an observation.
Well in Creator's case I think it's fair to say he's just focused on GSL. Like I know people don't like those kind of comments, but the guy is in his first GSL final ever and looks fantastic there and then outside of GSL he just performs like regular Creator. And even Rogue almost got 4-0'd out of this tournament in his group.
Part of what makes herO so fun to watch is that he just plays with reckless abandon. He throws himself into his opponent full force, even when he probably shouldn't. It's gameplay on a knife's edge - herO finished last in his GSL group but he could have won it just as well.
Yes, herO plays in the same spirit of Zest. Huge upswings and downswings. Great fun to watch.
Trap and Creator are more cut from the solid mould. Sadly, in the current meta, being solid alone doesn't seem to be enough to take down a solid Zerg in PvZ.
Interestingly, herO in his post-game interview said he would rather face a Zerg than play PvT (especially against Maru). And also, that he hasn't quite heard of the 'Mad Scientist' nickname that people have been sticking to him!
I legit think Cure wins the fight easily if he just lands all his vikings, sieges his libs and bumrushes Clem's army. It's not that many tanks, Clem's vikings will suck vs bio and raven missiles can only do so much
On April 30 2022 21:48 Durnuu wrote: I legit think Cure wins the fight easily if he just lands all his vikings, sieges his libs and bumrushes Clem's army. It's not that many tanks, Clem's vikings will suck vs bio and raven missiles can only do so much
agree, especially because he can also remax on bio
On April 30 2022 21:48 Durnuu wrote: I legit think Cure wins the fight easily if he just lands all his vikings, sieges his libs and bumrushes Clem's army. It's not that many tanks, Clem's vikings will suck vs bio and raven missiles can only do so much
but he chose to fight the 50 Vikings head on with his 40
Here's some things Cure could have done to have a better life this game:
- try to base trade - attack Clem's production with more than just 5 SCVs at any point in the last 15 minutes of the game - make his own ravens, they counter literally any mech unit - try to make something happen 20 minutes ago when he was up 70 supply - at least try to take a half decent fight
On April 30 2022 23:05 Elentos wrote: Good thing they nerfed queen walks
Overlord speed is too expensive, zergs will never be able to afford it And of course let's not forget queen walks only happened because of void ray openers
On April 30 2022 23:05 Elentos wrote: Good thing they nerfed queen walks
Overlord speed is too expensive, zergs will never be able to afford it And of course let's not forget queen walks only happened because of void ray openers
Just hitting the Zerg fantasy of being extremely adaptable and ever evolving
On April 30 2022 23:05 Elentos wrote: Good thing they nerfed queen walks
Overlord speed is too expensive, zergs will never be able to afford it And of course let's not forget queen walks only happened because of void ray openers
Just hitting the Zerg fantasy of being extremely adaptable and ever evolving
When are we gonna hit the Protoss fantasy of glassing planets to get rid of Zerg infestations?
On April 30 2022 23:05 Elentos wrote: Good thing they nerfed queen walks
Overlord speed is too expensive, zergs will never be able to afford it And of course let's not forget queen walks only happened because of void ray openers
Just hitting the Zerg fantasy of being extremely adaptable and ever evolving
When are we gonna hit the Protoss fantasy of glassing planets to get rid of Zerg infestations?
Late game upgrade to get spear of adun abilities needed.
On April 30 2022 23:05 Elentos wrote: Good thing they nerfed queen walks
Overlord speed is too expensive, zergs will never be able to afford it And of course let's not forget queen walks only happened because of void ray openers
Just hitting the Zerg fantasy of being extremely adaptable and ever evolving
When are we gonna hit the Protoss fantasy of glassing planets to get rid of Zerg infestations?
Late game upgrade to get spear of adun abilities needed.
Maybe Protoss should start the game with a mothership
On April 30 2022 23:05 Elentos wrote: Good thing they nerfed queen walks
Overlord speed is too expensive, zergs will never be able to afford it And of course let's not forget queen walks only happened because of void ray openers
Just hitting the Zerg fantasy of being extremely adaptable and ever evolving
When are we gonna hit the Protoss fantasy of glassing planets to get rid of Zerg infestations?
Late game upgrade to get spear of adun abilities needed.
Maybe Protoss should start the game with a mothership
That'd be too broken, maybe they could have a smaller version, the "center" of the mothership?
On April 30 2022 23:05 Elentos wrote: Good thing they nerfed queen walks
Overlord speed is too expensive, zergs will never be able to afford it And of course let's not forget queen walks only happened because of void ray openers
Just hitting the Zerg fantasy of being extremely adaptable and ever evolving
When are we gonna hit the Protoss fantasy of glassing planets to get rid of Zerg infestations?
Late game upgrade to get spear of adun abilities needed.
Maybe Protoss should start the game with a mothership
That'd be too broken, maybe they could have a smaller version, the "center" of the mothership?
On April 30 2022 23:05 Elentos wrote: Good thing they nerfed queen walks
Overlord speed is too expensive, zergs will never be able to afford it And of course let's not forget queen walks only happened because of void ray openers
Just hitting the Zerg fantasy of being extremely adaptable and ever evolving
When are we gonna hit the Protoss fantasy of glassing planets to get rid of Zerg infestations?
Late game upgrade to get spear of adun abilities needed.
Maybe Protoss should start the game with a mothership
That'd be too broken, maybe they could have a smaller version, the "center" of the mothership?
Let's call it the core.
Now that I think of it, I think Protoss struggles started when they removed the Mothership Core
On April 30 2022 23:05 Elentos wrote: Good thing they nerfed queen walks
Overlord speed is too expensive, zergs will never be able to afford it And of course let's not forget queen walks only happened because of void ray openers
Just hitting the Zerg fantasy of being extremely adaptable and ever evolving
When are we gonna hit the Protoss fantasy of glassing planets to get rid of Zerg infestations?
Late game upgrade to get spear of adun abilities needed.
Maybe Protoss should start the game with a mothership
That'd be too broken, maybe they could have a smaller version, the "center" of the mothership?
Let's call it the core.
Now that I think of it, I think Protoss struggles started when they removed the Mothership Core
Wonder how Protoss struggles started after Blizzard removed the duct tape holding the race together
On April 30 2022 23:05 Elentos wrote: Good thing they nerfed queen walks
Overlord speed is too expensive, zergs will never be able to afford it And of course let's not forget queen walks only happened because of void ray openers
Just hitting the Zerg fantasy of being extremely adaptable and ever evolving
When are we gonna hit the Protoss fantasy of glassing planets to get rid of Zerg infestations?
Late game upgrade to get spear of adun abilities needed.
Maybe Protoss should start the game with a mothership
That'd be too broken, maybe they could have a smaller version, the "center" of the mothership?
Let's call it the core.
Now that I think of it, I think Protoss struggles started when they removed the Mothership Core
Not too surprising, considering the replacement was shield batteries which get absolutely dumpstered by ravagers
On April 30 2022 23:05 Elentos wrote: Good thing they nerfed queen walks
Overlord speed is too expensive, zergs will never be able to afford it And of course let's not forget queen walks only happened because of void ray openers
Just hitting the Zerg fantasy of being extremely adaptable and ever evolving
When are we gonna hit the Protoss fantasy of glassing planets to get rid of Zerg infestations?
Late game upgrade to get spear of adun abilities needed.
Maybe Protoss should start the game with a mothership
That'd be too broken, maybe they could have a smaller version, the "center" of the mothership?
Let's call it the core.
Now that I think of it, I think Protoss struggles started when they removed the Mothership Core
Not too surprising, considering the replacement was shield batteries which get absolutely dumpstered by ravagers
On April 30 2022 23:06 Durnuu wrote: [quote] Overlord speed is too expensive, zergs will never be able to afford it And of course let's not forget queen walks only happened because of void ray openers
Just hitting the Zerg fantasy of being extremely adaptable and ever evolving
When are we gonna hit the Protoss fantasy of glassing planets to get rid of Zerg infestations?
Late game upgrade to get spear of adun abilities needed.
Maybe Protoss should start the game with a mothership
That'd be too broken, maybe they could have a smaller version, the "center" of the mothership?
Let's call it the core.
Now that I think of it, I think Protoss struggles started when they removed the Mothership Core
Not too surprising, considering the replacement was shield batteries which get absolutely dumpstered by ravagers
As opposed to overcharged pylons?
In my defense I completely erased their existence from my head
My prediction for this game: Dark has a massive bank over a very defensive Maru, but Dark headbutts in Maru's defense time after time and ends up losing
On April 30 2022 23:34 Durnuu wrote: My prediction for this game: Dark has a massive bank over a very defensive Maru, but Dark headbutts in Maru's defense time after time and ends up losing
Not entirely accurate, but not entirely inaccurate either in the end
On May 01 2022 00:01 Argonauta wrote: If Dark wants to win a title again, he needs to kill 2 of his drones right from the get go . He is absurdly good from behind.
better than any other Zerg but not good enough to beat Maru (or the other top top players probably)
On May 01 2022 01:15 Charoisaur wrote: that move to attack in seemed incredibly stupid to me but it turns out Rogue understands the game better than me
Who'd have known a multi-time World Champ would understand ZvZ better than us shitposters?
On May 01 2022 01:15 Charoisaur wrote: that move to attack in seemed incredibly stupid to me but it turns out Rogue understands the game better than me
Who'd have known a multi-time World Champ would understand ZvZ better than us shitposters?
On May 01 2022 01:15 Charoisaur wrote: that move to attack in seemed incredibly stupid to me but it turns out Rogue understands the game better than me
Who'd have known a multi-time World Champ would understand ZvZ better than us shitposters?
Multi-time patchzerg*
Let's just say multi-time GSL winner so people know we're not talking about Serral
On May 01 2022 01:38 allmotor1 wrote: i didn't think its possible, but steadfast is even worse than catz and nathanias when it comes to serral worship.
whenever rogue does something good or wins, he still talks about how serral is so great.. utterly amazing
Whats to do? Also with the toxic chats headed by this one guy.
Anyway the good thing is Rogue will focus his preparation for the final GSL much better.
On May 01 2022 01:38 allmotor1 wrote: i didn't think its possible, but steadfast is even worse than catz and nathanias when it comes to serral worship.
whenever rogue does something good or wins, he still talks about how serral is so great.. utterly amazing
Anyway the good thing is Rogue will focus his preparation for the final GSL much better.
On May 01 2022 01:38 allmotor1 wrote: i didn't think its possible, but steadfast is even worse than catz and nathanias when it comes to serral worship.
whenever rogue does something good or wins, he still talks about how serral is so great.. utterly amazing
Anyway the good thing is Rogue will focus his preparation for the final GSL much better.
That is a terrible thing
Let hope that Creator give the best performance of his career during the final.
On May 01 2022 01:38 allmotor1 wrote: i didn't think its possible, but steadfast is even worse than catz and nathanias when it comes to serral worship.
whenever rogue does something good or wins, he still talks about how serral is so great.. utterly amazing
Anyway the good thing is Rogue will focus his preparation for the final GSL much better.
That is a terrible thing
haha. not holding out much hope for a creator upset.
On May 01 2022 01:38 allmotor1 wrote: i didn't think its possible, but steadfast is even worse than catz and nathanias when it comes to serral worship.
whenever rogue does something good or wins, he still talks about how serral is so great.. utterly amazing
Anyway the good thing is Rogue will focus his preparation for the final GSL much better.
That is a terrible thing
Take heart, by getting eliminated a round earlier in KoB Creator had more time to prepare so he'll stomp Rogue 4-0.
Can you believe the matches we get tomorrow? Clem v Reynor and Maru v Serral before the winners take it all! I think we pretty much get 3 finals back-to-back-to-back
On May 01 2022 03:12 BeoMulf wrote: Can you believe the matches we get tomorrow? Clem v Reynor and Maru v Serral before the winners take it all! I think we pretty much get 3 finals back-to-back-to-back
Well we just have to hope it won't turn into Zerg dominance as is usual lately
On May 01 2022 03:12 BeoMulf wrote: Can you believe the matches we get tomorrow? Clem v Reynor and Maru v Serral before the winners take it all! I think we pretty much get 3 finals back-to-back-to-back
Well we just have to hope it won't turn into Zerg dominance as is usual lately
Terrans should just move their production to their 4th or 5th base once their main and natural mine out, that way they don't have to defend. As for the depots you lose, just make OCs to replace
I think Serral was actually doing fine until he lost patience and head butt into Maru trying to destroy his production. I can understand not wanting to be on a mined out map with Maru's ghosts but his bank wasn't good enough to throw away armies like that.
If Serral's early-mid game was better I bet he would have just printed banelings and tried to keep Maru's base count from going too high instead of trying to go toe to toe on a similar base count though, Maru late game too scary.
On May 01 2022 22:53 Andi_Goldberger wrote: so is there any hope for a new mappool? or are we getting stuck with this one like the romanticide era? hopefully not
Maybe with the next ladder season, but this one lasts until like late June? They should actually just throw out every map from this pool.
On May 01 2022 22:53 Andi_Goldberger wrote: so is there any hope for a new mappool? or are we getting stuck with this one like the romanticide era? hopefully not
Maybe with the next ladder season, but this one lasts until like late June? They should actually just throw out every map from this pool.
Balance wise I think the maps other than Pride and Glittering are fine, but we've had all these maps for so long that they should all be thrown out just for variety.
On May 01 2022 22:53 Andi_Goldberger wrote: so is there any hope for a new mappool? or are we getting stuck with this one like the romanticide era? hopefully not
Maybe with the next ladder season, but this one lasts until like late June? They should actually just throw out every map from this pool.
Balance wise I think the maps other than Pride and Glittering are fine, but we've had all these maps for so long that they should all be thrown out just for variety.
Hardwire is also Zerg favored. 3 Zerg favored maps and 0 Terran favored maps
On May 01 2022 22:51 darklycid wrote: Yeah idk nobody can tell me with a straight face that the top zergs arent getting amplified by lotv fitting zerg strengths to a tee.
it is zerg is massively OP. I hope there is an actual significant patch, this is getting stale.
On May 01 2022 23:04 Charoisaur wrote: Well, at least I can head out to the gym now. This is really reducing my enjoyment of watching sc2 when Zerg always wins
Yeah but it's only Serral, Reynor, Dark and Rogue and it's only been 5 years.
On May 01 2022 22:51 darklycid wrote: Yeah idk nobody can tell me with a straight face that the top zergs arent getting amplified by lotv fitting zerg strengths to a tee.
it is zerg is massively OP. I hope there is an actual significant patch, this is getting stale.
Don't think it's massively OP like 2nd half of 2019 OP but just all the small things fit zerg the best, 12 worker start, game forcing you to expand and spread out and then the current map pool is just the cherry on top.
On May 01 2022 22:51 darklycid wrote: Yeah idk nobody can tell me with a straight face that the top zergs arent getting amplified by lotv fitting zerg strengths to a tee.
it is zerg is massively OP. I hope there is an actual significant patch, this is getting stale.
Don't think it's massively OP like 2nd half of 2019 OP but just all the small things fit zerg the best, 12 worker start, game forcing you to expand and spread out and then the current map pool is just the cherry on top.
If it wasn't for Maru, terran is mostly extinct. Protoss has been extinct.
will I ever see which player is more skilled? I mean, is there a chance they will ever play from same lvl, without advantages Zerg has. Or that is it, SC2 goes in it's final stage, where no one cares Z players can go make a coffee and still wins because it is just to damn easy. So sad.
New, less Zerg favored maps are needed. It was already clear in December, to be honest. So weird(definitely not) that the balance whine increases when non korean Zerg players win, tho...
On May 01 2022 23:22 Xain0n wrote: New, less Zerg favored maps are needed. It was already clear in December, to be honest. So weird(definitely not) that the balance whine increases when non korean Zerg players win, tho...
Rooting for Reynor here!
? It's always when there is a ZvZ finals or a zerg filled playoffs that's just your bias speaking. Problem is just that this mostly happens in tournaments where all of the top zergs particiapte in (also in foreign tournaments more often than the kr ones)
On May 01 2022 23:22 Xain0n wrote: New, less Zerg favored maps are needed. It was already clear in December, to be honest. So weird(definitely not) that the balance whine increases when non korean Zerg players win, tho...
Rooting for Reynor here!
Zerg is OP, when its Z v protoss 99.999% you already know the zerg will win. Terran is literally non relevant as far as an actual player who wins tournaments besides Maru.
On May 01 2022 23:22 Xain0n wrote: New, less Zerg favored maps are needed. It was already clear in December, to be honest. So weird(definitely not) that the balance whine increases when non korean Zerg players win, tho...
Rooting for Reynor here!
Zerg is OP, when its Z v protoss 99.999% you already know the zerg will win. Terran is literally non relevant as far as an actual player who wins tournaments besides Maru.
Clearly the best explanation for Maru beating Reynor and Dark before losing to Serral is a game that's imbalanced beyond saving.
And yeah no shit Maru is the only Terran who is consistently winning championships, of the four horsemen two are in the military, one is permanently worse after his time in the military, and one is Maru. If Dark, Rogue, and Serral were to disappear tomorrow Reynor would be the only Zerg consistently winning championships. This map pool is Zerg favored but that's just a blip against the story of Terran decline.
As a Maru fan, who also criticize him for having terrible opening whenever he does it, I dont mind this loss to be quite honest. Yeah the hellbat push was shit, but Berlingrad isnt a Terran map, its 50/50 at best, and Maru had to do something else other than playing the macro game and die to a sudden attack from the Zerg. Curious Mind is also "manageable" by Zerg, as long as they can figure out the 3 racks opening, or the 2 base all-in from Terran.
On May 01 2022 22:53 Andi_Goldberger wrote: so is there any hope for a new mappool? or are we getting stuck with this one like the romanticide era? hopefully not
Maybe with the next ladder season, but this one lasts until like late June? They should actually just throw out every map from this pool.
ESL has every single opportunity to switch the maps after IEM, but there has been zero announcement, so they probably want to keep it till the end of the next DH. Meanwhile, viewers know the map is Zerg favored and have been VOCAL about it for months, players and casters also know it but they just dont want to get into trouble so they stay quiet. I dont know who or what type of communication it would take for us to move forward from this, other than its being on the whim of a couple of people.
On May 01 2022 23:22 Xain0n wrote: New, less Zerg favored maps are needed. It was already clear in December, to be honest. So weird(definitely not) that the balance whine increases when non korean Zerg players win, tho...
Rooting for Reynor here!
Zerg is OP, when its Z v protoss 99.999% you already know the zerg will win. Terran is literally non relevant as far as an actual player who wins tournaments besides Maru.
Clearly the best explanation for Maru beating Reynor and Dark before losing to Serral is a game that's imbalanced beyond saving.
And yeah no shit Maru is the only Terran who is consistently winning championships, of the four horsemen two are in the military, one is permanently worse after his time in the military, and one is Maru. If Dark, Rogue, and Serral were to disappear tomorrow Reynor would be the only Zerg consistently winning championships. This map pool is Zerg favored but that's just a blip against the story of Terran decline.
You think if TY and INnoVation were still playing they'd have won this tournament over the gauntlet of Zergs? Please stay honest, they weren't beating the top Zergs before going to military, they wouldn't now
On May 01 2022 23:27 tigera6 wrote: As a Maru fan, who also criticize him for having terrible opening whenever he does it, I dont mind this loss to be quite honest. Yeah the hellbat push was shit, but Berlingrad isnt a Terran map, its 50/50 at best, and Maru had to do something else other than playing the macro game and die to a sudden attack from the Zerg. Curious Mind is also "manageable" by Zerg, as long as they can figure out the 3 racks opening, or the 2 base all-in from Terran.
I agree. It's just at this point, it's almost a foregone conclusion it'll be a zvz finals. Usually Rogue/Serral/Reynor/Dark.
And you can forget about Protoss even having a chance. And watching zvt is even getting stale at this point, if T can't do anything significant, once it goes late game, Z wins. they just swallow the map and make god tier units like lurkers and if you aren't Maru you are not winning.
On May 01 2022 23:22 Xain0n wrote: New, less Zerg favored maps are needed. It was already clear in December, to be honest. So weird(definitely not) that the balance whine increases when non korean Zerg players win, tho...
Rooting for Reynor here!
? It's always when there is a ZvZ finals or a zerg filled playoffs that's just your bias speaking. Problem is just that this mostly happens in tournaments where all of the top zergs particiapte in (also in foreign tournaments more often than the kr ones)
Not a single positive word about Serral beating Maru after the latter defeated Reynor and 3-0d Dark. If Rogue(or Dark himself) were the one taking down Maru we'd have been already reminded by now how strong and smart they are.
On May 01 2022 23:22 Xain0n wrote: New, less Zerg favored maps are needed. It was already clear in December, to be honest. So weird(definitely not) that the balance whine increases when non korean Zerg players win, tho...
Rooting for Reynor here!
? It's always when there is a ZvZ finals or a zerg filled playoffs that's just your bias speaking. Problem is just that this mostly happens in tournaments where all of the top zergs particiapte in (also in foreign tournaments more often than the kr ones)
Not a single positive word about Serral beating Maru after the latter defeated Reynor and 3-0d Dark. If Rogue(or Dark himself) were the one taking down Maru we'd have been already reminded by now how strong and smart they are.
Nah not with it leading into a zvz finals, maybe with dark as his games vs Maru tend to look more insane. Maybe if we got like 4 games of game 2 like proportions there would be praise.
edit: also what should we praise? Serral played well did not do any real mistakes and then just killed maru, non exciting stuff doesn't generate praise.
On May 01 2022 23:22 Xain0n wrote: New, less Zerg favored maps are needed. It was already clear in December, to be honest. So weird(definitely not) that the balance whine increases when non korean Zerg players win, tho...
Rooting for Reynor here!
Zerg is OP, when its Z v protoss 99.999% you already know the zerg will win. Terran is literally non relevant as far as an actual player who wins tournaments besides Maru.
Clearly the best explanation for Maru beating Reynor and Dark before losing to Serral is a game that's imbalanced beyond saving.
And yeah no shit Maru is the only Terran who is consistently winning championships, of the four horsemen two are in the military, one is permanently worse after his time in the military, and one is Maru. If Dark, Rogue, and Serral were to disappear tomorrow Reynor would be the only Zerg consistently winning championships. This map pool is Zerg favored but that's just a blip against the story of Terran decline.
You think if TY and INnoVation were still playing they'd have won this tournament over the gauntlet of Zergs? Please stay honest, they weren't beating the top Zergs before going to military, they wouldn't now
I don't think any of them would go through the entire gauntlet of top Zergs in this map pool. That wouldn't be necessary for there to be much more diverse top 8s/ro4s though. Right now it's basically just another top zerg or Maru that's capable of stopping the top 4 Zerg, but Innovation at least would fairly often take out someone like Dark or Rogue even if he didn't go on to make a deep run. Inno in his uninspired final year would probably perform like Bunny though.
On May 01 2022 23:22 Xain0n wrote: New, less Zerg favored maps are needed. It was already clear in December, to be honest. So weird(definitely not) that the balance whine increases when non korean Zerg players win, tho...
Rooting for Reynor here!
? It's always when there is a ZvZ finals or a zerg filled playoffs that's just your bias speaking. Problem is just that this mostly happens in tournaments where all of the top zergs particiapte in (also in foreign tournaments more often than the kr ones)
Not a single positive word about Serral beating Maru after the latter defeated Reynor and 3-0d Dark. If Rogue(or Dark himself) were the one taking down Maru we'd have been already reminded by now how strong and smart they are.
I am pretty sure lots of people were picking 3-4 Zerg into the Ro.4, and a ZvZ final, before the tournament even began. And Dark and Rogue have beaten Maru in recent time as well, on this same map pool, so I am not sure how much people are praising those guys had they beaten Maru instead. All the praise seems to be for Maru to be able to hold against such unfavorable conditions and odds.
On May 01 2022 23:27 tigera6 wrote: As a Maru fan, who also criticize him for having terrible opening whenever he does it, I dont mind this loss to be quite honest. Yeah the hellbat push was shit, but Berlingrad isnt a Terran map, its 50/50 at best, and Maru had to do something else other than playing the macro game and die to a sudden attack from the Zerg. Curious Mind is also "manageable" by Zerg, as long as they can figure out the 3 racks opening, or the 2 base all-in from Terran.
I agree. It's just at this point, it's almost a foregone conclusion it'll be a zvz finals. Usually Rogue/Serral/Reynor/Dark.
And you can forget about Protoss even having a chance. And watching zvt is even getting stale at this point, if T can't do anything significant, once it goes late game, Z wins. they just swallow the map and make god tier units like lurkers and if you aren't Maru you are not winning.
You know what, I blame Maru for this, he should have lost to Reynor and take 2nd place, that way we could have had all 4 Zergs on the same side of the bracket and the rest are on the other side. That way we can have a non zvz grand final, just copy from GSL, they let Dark and Rogue play each other all the damn time.
On May 01 2022 23:22 Xain0n wrote: New, less Zerg favored maps are needed. It was already clear in December, to be honest. So weird(definitely not) that the balance whine increases when non korean Zerg players win, tho...
Rooting for Reynor here!
? It's always when there is a ZvZ finals or a zerg filled playoffs that's just your bias speaking. Problem is just that this mostly happens in tournaments where all of the top zergs particiapte in (also in foreign tournaments more often than the kr ones)
Not a single positive word about Serral beating Maru after the latter defeated Reynor and 3-0d Dark. If Rogue(or Dark himself) were the one taking down Maru we'd have been already reminded by now how strong and smart they are.
Come on, get out with your head-canon imaginized victimizing. Zerg won a lot of GSLs in the last year and there were always people complaining. And there was a Protoss complain thread which specifically focused on GSL results (in which the top foreigners don't play afaik)
On May 01 2022 23:22 Xain0n wrote: New, less Zerg favored maps are needed. It was already clear in December, to be honest. So weird(definitely not) that the balance whine increases when non korean Zerg players win, tho...
Rooting for Reynor here!
? It's always when there is a ZvZ finals or a zerg filled playoffs that's just your bias speaking. Problem is just that this mostly happens in tournaments where all of the top zergs particiapte in (also in foreign tournaments more often than the kr ones)
Not a single positive word about Serral beating Maru after the latter defeated Reynor and 3-0d Dark. If Rogue(or Dark himself) were the one taking down Maru we'd have been already reminded by now how strong and smart they are.
the only one showing bias here is you man. You keep bringing serral 24/7. you literally worship him, its cringeworthy.
On May 01 2022 23:55 LostUsername100 wrote: Maru 2x1 Reynor, Maru 3x0 Dark, Maru 1 x 3 Serral
Conclusion: Zerg OP
It's not about this one tournament only.......
The guy just failing math, even if we assume Maru is on equal footing with the top Zergs (the ONLY player in the world who is capable of that so far), that means he has a 50/50 chance to beat one top Zerg at a time, but he need to win 3 in a row to win the tournament, that leave us a whooping 12.5% chance of a non-Zerg winning any tournament, depending on how the bracket works out. Yeah, Zerg is OP, at least on the current map pool.
On May 01 2022 23:55 LostUsername100 wrote: Maru 2x1 Reynor, Maru 3x0 Dark, Maru 1 x 3 Serral
Conclusion: Zerg OP
It's not about this one tournament only.......
The guy just failing math, even if we assume Maru is on equal footing with the top Zergs (the ONLY player in the world who is capable of that so far), that means he has a 50/50 chance to beat one top Zerg at a time, but he need to win 3 in a row to win the tournament, that leave us a whooping 12.5% chance of a non-Zerg winning any tournament, depending on how the bracket works out. Yeah, Zerg is OP, at least on the current map pool.
On the flip side even if you retool things you’re still left with 4 Zergs who are a clear tier above in their race, and Maru largely standing alone.
It’s not like Zergs outside of those 4 have been crushing it for the last few years
On May 01 2022 23:55 LostUsername100 wrote: Maru 2x1 Reynor, Maru 3x0 Dark, Maru 1 x 3 Serral
Conclusion: Zerg OP
It's not about this one tournament only.......
The guy just failing math, even if we assume Maru is on equal footing with the top Zergs (the ONLY player in the world who is capable of that so far), that means he has a 50/50 chance to beat one top Zerg at a time, but he need to win 3 in a row to win the tournament, that leave us a whooping 12.5% chance of a non-Zerg winning any tournament, depending on how the bracket works out. Yeah, Zerg is OP, at least on the current map pool.
On the flip side even if you retool things you’re still left with 4 Zergs who are a clear tier above in their race, and Maru largely standing alone.
It’s not like Zergs outside of those 4 have been crushing it for the last few years
Yeah I think you need to be very good to take advantages of the strength of the Zerg race but once you reach that skilllevel Zerg is advantaged over the other races. I mean just with the eye-test watching these games I feel Zerg has way more room for mistakes and more opportunities to make plays than terran. Not even speaking of ZvP, I think it's even worse there
On May 01 2022 23:55 LostUsername100 wrote: Maru 2x1 Reynor, Maru 3x0 Dark, Maru 1 x 3 Serral
Conclusion: Zerg OP
It's not about this one tournament only.......
The guy just failing math, even if we assume Maru is on equal footing with the top Zergs (the ONLY player in the world who is capable of that so far), that means he has a 50/50 chance to beat one top Zerg at a time, but he need to win 3 in a row to win the tournament, that leave us a whooping 12.5% chance of a non-Zerg winning any tournament, depending on how the bracket works out. Yeah, Zerg is OP, at least on the current map pool.
On the flip side even if you retool things you’re still left with 4 Zergs who are a clear tier above in their race, and Maru largely standing alone.
It’s not like Zergs outside of those 4 have been crushing it for the last few years
True, but even then I would still blame the map pool, it should be designed such that other Top Terran has a better shot at beating top Zerg, not Maru alone carry the TvZ matchup. Cure and Clem, who are the 2 other best Terran, and occasionally HM, who need the buff more than Maru himself in this matchup. Cure used to be able to 3-0 Serral or 2-0 Reynor in some tournament before, but now hes literally un-winnable against those guys, like all of his "tools" got stripped away somehow. Clem is still finding his way out of the limbo he is in, and unlikely to get out anytime soon.
On May 01 2022 23:55 LostUsername100 wrote: Maru 2x1 Reynor, Maru 3x0 Dark, Maru 1 x 3 Serral
Conclusion: Zerg OP
It's not about this one tournament only.......
The guy just failing math, even if we assume Maru is on equal footing with the top Zergs (the ONLY player in the world who is capable of that so far), that means he has a 50/50 chance to beat one top Zerg at a time, but he need to win 3 in a row to win the tournament, that leave us a whooping 12.5% chance of a non-Zerg winning any tournament, depending on how the bracket works out. Yeah, Zerg is OP, at least on the current map pool.
On the flip side even if you retool things you’re still left with 4 Zergs who are a clear tier above in their race, and Maru largely standing alone.
It’s not like Zergs outside of those 4 have been crushing it for the last few years
If the top 4 of every race retired tomorrow I'd still bet on Zerg winning the most tournaments. The non top 4 Zergs have low motivation currently because even if they improve they will still lose the ZvZs. Plus Solar is a choker.
On May 02 2022 00:31 dysenterymd wrote: Serral really seems to suck at ZvZ online. With the form he showed he would have lost offline anyways though
ZvZ is extremely volatile, Reynor just has a read on Serral even w/o scouting properly, I don't think it has to do anything with the online part.
Rogue got absolutely dominated by Serral in late game, then just went with random all ins every game and almost beat Serral.
Serral did say in an interview pre Katowice that he thought his more reactive style was better offline than online, and considering how much better his offline record is against top Zergs than his online record there might be something to that. Or maybe he just peaked for Katowice.
Serral did just play worse today though, it's not like he got heavily mind gamed. He played worse in the straight up games.
On May 02 2022 00:31 dysenterymd wrote: Serral really seems to suck at ZvZ online. With the form he showed he would have lost offline anyways though
ZvZ is extremely volatile, Reynor just has a read on Serral even w/o scouting properly, I don't think it has to do anything with the online part.
Rogue got absolutely dominated by Serral in late game, then just went with random all ins every game and almost beat Serral.
Thats why people are not excited about ZvZ in general, especially in Grand Final, you just dont get lots of good series from that. TvZ almost always guarantee a long and exciting match at the top level, then PvZ could also go either way, depending on who the Protoss is. Edit: And now we get to see if its 4-0 or 4-1 in the GSL.
Zergs have been on top since late 2019. Despite the addition of multiple minor Zerg nerfs and new maps. But who knows, maybe the balance "council of the wise" will get things back on track by agreeing to add 0.20 second to lurker burrow time or raise baneling prices by 5 minerals before 2023. I'm not sure if the top Zerg in the council would agree to such daring changes, but we can hope.
On May 02 2022 00:50 sirok_ wrote: Zergs have been on top since late 2019. Despite the addition of multiple minor Zerg nerfs and new maps. But who knows, maybe the balance "council of the wise" will get things back on track by agreeing to add 0.20 second to lurker burrow time or raise baneling prices by 5 minerals before 2023. I'm not sure if the top Zerg in the council would agree to such daring changes, but we can hope.
They are probably talking about Ghost and Carrier nerfs right now
Sure, I watch one game from the Ro4 and its Marus win. Dammit... Glad to see the two best players at the moment in the finals again, bit sad Serral bonked it so hard. Oh well, feels like he always drops off a bit in the "Off"season. Really curious though if Reynor can keep this level up and how Clem will do throughout the year, especially offline
Kind of feel for the balance team right now, feels like they are in a tough spot.
I feel like game balance could be a bit more influenced by maps, but unfortunately, the way maps are chosen in the TLMC kind of gets in the way of balance.
The maps never seem to be chosen for actual balance reasons vs. which map looks the coolest.
If maps were a bit more Terran and Protoss friendly I think it would swing the balance in a good direction.
I personally think that creep itself may need looking at, particularly the rate of expansion. Makes little sense to me that Serral and Reynor can both have 75% of the map covered in creep by the 8 minute mark. The Queen change was bold but a move in the right direction, the balance team shouldn't be afraid to get aggressive.
I mean seriously, one aggressive change and the ZvP meta has improved dramatically.
On May 02 2022 02:32 Beelzebub1 wrote: Kind of feel for the balance team right now, feels like they are in a tough spot.
I feel like game balance could be a bit more influenced by maps, but unfortunately, the way maps are chosen in the TLMC kind of gets in the way of balance.
The maps never seem to be chosen for actual balance reasons vs. which map looks the coolest.
If maps were a bit more Terran and Protoss friendly I think it would swing the balance in a good direction.
I personally think that creep itself may need looking at, particularly the rate of expansion. Makes little sense to me that Serral and Reynor can both have 75% of the map covered in creep by the 8 minute mark. The Queen change was bold but a move in the right direction, the balance team shouldn't be afraid to get aggressive.
I mean seriously, one aggressive change and the ZvP meta has improved dramatically.
Yes, creep spread is the biggest problem right now I think, it's just too oppressive in the hands of a top Zerg. And it doesn't really matter how well the terran tries to contain it, even Maru and Clem who at least equal Serral and Reynor in terms of multitasking speed are unable to really contain it.
If the last three years of Zerg gaslighting have told us anything it's that there's no chance we're getting meaningful balance changes in when any Zergs on the community council will just pretend like nothing's wrong.
As long as the Zerg players remain the idols of the "official" narrative I remain pessimistic that anything meaningful will be done without meaningful organization in the community independent of the established channels.
On May 02 2022 02:32 Beelzebub1 wrote: Kind of feel for the balance team right now, feels like they are in a tough spot.
I feel like game balance could be a bit more influenced by maps, but unfortunately, the way maps are chosen in the TLMC kind of gets in the way of balance.
The maps never seem to be chosen for actual balance reasons vs. which map looks the coolest.
If maps were a bit more Terran and Protoss friendly I think it would swing the balance in a good direction.
I personally think that creep itself may need looking at, particularly the rate of expansion. Makes little sense to me that Serral and Reynor can both have 75% of the map covered in creep by the 8 minute mark. The Queen change was bold but a move in the right direction, the balance team shouldn't be afraid to get aggressive.
I mean seriously, one aggressive change and the ZvP meta has improved dramatically.
Yes, creep spread is the biggest problem right now I think, it's just too oppressive in the hands of a top Zerg. And it doesn't really matter how well the terran tries to contain it, even Maru and Clem who at least equal Serral and Reynor in terms of multitasking speed are unable to really contain it.
Yea, I think it's one of those things where 5 years ago the skill level was just lower, so creep being a balance issue was a non factor, there really weren't any Zergs that were getting that 3/4 map coating going.
Fast forward to now when the skill level is higher then it's ever been, and like you said, it's just oppressive when it's in the hands of a top Zerg.
On May 02 2022 02:32 Beelzebub1 wrote: Kind of feel for the balance team right now, feels like they are in a tough spot.
I feel like game balance could be a bit more influenced by maps, but unfortunately, the way maps are chosen in the TLMC kind of gets in the way of balance.
The maps never seem to be chosen for actual balance reasons vs. which map looks the coolest.
If maps were a bit more Terran and Protoss friendly I think it would swing the balance in a good direction.
I personally think that creep itself may need looking at, particularly the rate of expansion. Makes little sense to me that Serral and Reynor can both have 75% of the map covered in creep by the 8 minute mark. The Queen change was bold but a move in the right direction, the balance team shouldn't be afraid to get aggressive.
I mean seriously, one aggressive change and the ZvP meta has improved dramatically.
I think slowing down the build time of the creep tumor might help, and maybe making creep and transfuse cost more energy on the queen
On May 02 2022 02:32 Beelzebub1 wrote: Kind of feel for the balance team right now, feels like they are in a tough spot.
I feel like game balance could be a bit more influenced by maps, but unfortunately, the way maps are chosen in the TLMC kind of gets in the way of balance.
The maps never seem to be chosen for actual balance reasons vs. which map looks the coolest.
If maps were a bit more Terran and Protoss friendly I think it would swing the balance in a good direction.
I personally think that creep itself may need looking at, particularly the rate of expansion. Makes little sense to me that Serral and Reynor can both have 75% of the map covered in creep by the 8 minute mark. The Queen change was bold but a move in the right direction, the balance team shouldn't be afraid to get aggressive.
I mean seriously, one aggressive change and the ZvP meta has improved dramatically.
I think slowing down the build time of the creep tumor might help, and maybe making creep and transfuse cost more energy on the queen
All good ideas imo, could be implemented solo or in combination of some kind.
I would advocate for energy levels to stay the same, but for expansion from a dropped tumor to slow by 25%, and for the creep from a recently killed tumor to recede 25% faster. This would keep the same level of mechanical intensity required at the top level to both beat and spread the creep, but clearing it while advancing would be more rewarded.
On May 02 2022 04:41 goldensail wrote: why bother having the group stage and round of 8/4? Just randomly pick 2 out of Serral Reynor Rogue Dark and have a final.
Oh and change the name of the game to Zergcraft.
No, no, that wouldn't be fair. You're forgetting the possible dark horse runs from Solar, Lambo, or Elazer. You just need to do a Zerg-only tournament so that every Zerg has a fair shot at the championship.
On May 02 2022 04:41 goldensail wrote: why bother having the group stage and round of 8/4? Just randomly pick 2 out of Serral Reynor Rogue Dark and have a final.
Oh and change the name of the game to Zergcraft.
No, no, that wouldn't be fair. You're forgetting the possible dark horse runs from Solar, Lambo, or Elazer. You just need to do a Zerg-only tournament so that every Zerg has a fair shot at the championship.
Or, put all the Zerg in one side of the bracket and the rest on the other side, then we get to guarantee a non ZvZ grand final.
[QUOTE]On May 02 2022 10:39 tigera6 wrote: [QUOTE]On May 02 2022 04:46 QOGQOG wrote: [QUOTE]On May 02 2022 04:41 goldensail wrote: why bother having the group stage and round of 8/4? Just randomly pick 2 out of Serral Reynor Rogue Dark and have a final.
Or, put all the Zerg in one side of the bracket and the rest on the other side, then we get to guarantee a non ZvZ grand final.[/QUOTE]
That would allow people to argue that zerg is fine because the final is not a zvz. I'd go the polar opposite and prevent any of the top four zergs from playing against each other in the ro8, just so they fill up the ro4 and the gf. Maybe then the gaslighting will stop
Awhile back I was chilling with a friend into MOBA. He's played RTS in the past (BW and WC3). He's still curious about the SC2 scene. So we casually switch between LoL and SC2 when we talk about the latest meta of the games. Anyway, one time we were just watching some weekender tourney that was live when we were chilling. After watching a few ZvP/T games in a row, he was like "Wow, how much does the Queen cost? Probably a lot of gas? They're like hydra spellcasters, you could play them like mass Orc shamans in the old imba versions of WC3 (but even more imba because you could produce them off your town hall)!" After I explained about the cost and versatility of Queens, he shakes his head, chuckles and goes on his playful teasing and ripping "WTF you still watching this game. The unit would be perma-banned in every game if it appeared as a hero on LoL..." And so on. Eventually he got bored, and we turned on some LoL highlights for the rest of the night.
P.S. This is not a single anecdote, but reflects the sentiments of all of my friends who used to be die-hard RTS fans. Of course, there are inherent aspects of MOBA which just naturally appeals to casual viewers and gamers. But part of the factor also lies in the game designers' dedication to keep the meta fresh, diverse and balanced. I don't think RTS can ever be more popular than MOBA in this current social climate. But LoTV has certainly been an experiment gone wrong...
Reynor put the triple Inception into Serral's head lol. What the hell was that game 3 even? Serral was ahead basically all game long but had no idea what to do with that lead. Never have I seen him so indecisive
Great tournament and great games. Good production too. Besides, I'm happy that Reynor won. I feel like, for Reynor, having the CCW, this tournament, and now the WTL will be a good way for him to keep himself away from longer breaks and stay really competitive all season long.
On May 02 2022 13:12 RKC wrote: Creep, transfuse, long AA range...
The problem has always been Queens.
Awhile back I was chilling with a friend into MOBA. He's played RTS in the past (BW and WC3). He's still curious about the SC2 scene. So we casually switch between LoL and SC2 when we talk about the latest meta of the games. Anyway, one time we were just watching some weekender tourney that was live when we were chilling. After watching a few ZvP/T games in a row, he was like "Wow, how much does the Queen cost? Probably a lot of gas? They're like hydra spellcasters, you could play them like mass Orc shamans in the old imba versions of WC3 (but even more imba because you could produce them off your town hall)!" After I explained about the cost and versatility of Queens, he shakes his head, chuckles and goes on his playful teasing and ripping "WTF you still watching this game. The unit would be perma-banned in every game if it appeared as a hero on LoL..." And so on. Eventually he got bored, and we turned on some LoL highlights for the rest of the night.
P.S. This is not a single anecdote, but reflects the sentiments of all of my friends who used to be die-hard RTS fans. Of course, there are inherent aspects of MOBA which just naturally appeals to casual viewers and gamers. But part of the factor also lies in the game designers' dedication to keep the meta fresh, diverse and balanced. I don't think RTS can ever be more popular than MOBA in this current social climate. But LoTV has certainly been an experiment gone wrong...
Queens are the answer to everything. They stop all forms of early aggression. Air attack? Queens have long AA air range and transfuse. Dedicated ground attack? Even unscouted queens + 1 round of units is usually enough. 2 medivac drop? Queens can even kill the medivacs.
On top of all of this queens are good in nydus all ins. They are much too versatile. Would like to see something radical like taking away transfuse, reducing the AA range by 2 or eliminating it, and giving some early game AA unit. Force zerg to actually choose between drones, anti ground, and anti air. Not just Queens as the answer to everything.
Imagine giving Terran an emergency versatile defensive tool like Warp-in/Shield Battery or Queen against early suprise attack from Zerg and Protoss. Maybe adding a spell into the CC that can drop empty Bunker anywhere on the field with vision.
On May 03 2022 03:17 tigera6 wrote: Imagine giving Terran an emergency versatile defensive tool like Warp-in/Shield Battery or Queen against early suprise attack from Zerg and Protoss. Maybe adding a spell into the CC that can drop empty Bunker anywhere on the field with vision.
That's a nice idea. Maybe some kind of instant on demand detection and vision? Something you could get from Orbital maybe, keeping in theme with the main-building-safety-net thing.
I have an idea! What if every Queen has a limited set of creep tumors they can plant, like Vultures in BW? Maybe like 10 per Queen or so. I feel like the biggest problem is that clearing Creep often doesn't matter at all because Zerg will just immediately replace it with their 8 Queens.
Increasing required energy wouldn't work imo because that would delay the very first Creep Tumor too much
On May 03 2022 05:23 Charoisaur wrote: I have an idea! What if every Queen has a limited set of creep tumors they can plant, like Vultures in BW? Maybe like 10 per Queen or so. I feel like the biggest problem is that clearing Creep often doesn't matter at all because Zerg will just immediately replace it with their 8 Queens.
Increasing required energy wouldn't work imo because that would delay the very first Creep Tumor too much
Not a bad idea, at least in TvZ I think the important thing is making late game creep spread less oppressive rather than messing too much with the early to mid game.
Choosing between sacking creepless queens or keeping them around because of accumulated transfuse energy would also add some interesting decisions.
On May 03 2022 05:23 Charoisaur wrote: I have an idea! What if every Queen has a limited set of creep tumors they can plant, like Vultures in BW? Maybe like 10 per Queen or so. I feel like the biggest problem is that clearing Creep often doesn't matter at all because Zerg will just immediately replace it with their 8 Queens.
Increasing required energy wouldn't work imo because that would delay the very first Creep Tumor too much
Or just decrease the mana pool for Queens to 100, meaning that the Zerg player will have to choose whether to place creep or transfuse, and can't do both all the time.
EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/OAB5xJ4.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/bmJZ2C2.jpg)
King of Battles/3
AlphaX 
IntoTheClan 
BelAir 
Indy 
Enki 
O'Gaming 
3DClan 
BSL 
Cosmos![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/UlDjSEs.jpg)
