EPTI'm including the 2011 Blizzard Cup - I recall GomTV studios had 2 pictures of MMA in their hall of champions. In either case, there's no denying that Blizzard Cup 2011 was stacked. MMA had to beat Leenock, Nestea, Naniwa, Polt, Mvp, and DRG during his run, each of whom were top tier players during this time
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
I'm including the 2011 Blizzard Cup - I recall GomTV studios had 2 pictures of MMA in their hall of champions. In either case, there's no denying that Blizzard Cup 2011 was stacked. MMA had to beat Leenock, Nestea, Naniwa, Polt, Mvp, and DRG during his run, each of whom were top tier players during this time | ||
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Moonerz
United States444 Posts
On May 29 2019 23:54 Bagration wrote: I'm including the 2011 Blizzard Cup - I recall GomTV studios had 2 pictures of MMA in their hall of champions. In either case, there's no denying that Blizzard Cup 2011 was stacked. MMA had to beat Leenock, Nestea, Naniwa, Polt, Mvp, and DRG during his run, each of whom were top tier players during this time I can see how you would count that, however I prefer not to count those as GSLs because it leads to a slippery slope. Like would a Super Tournament count too then? Just personal preference I suppose. | ||
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
On May 30 2019 01:21 Moonerz wrote: I can see how you would count that, however I prefer not to count those as GSLs because it leads to a slippery slope. Like would a Super Tournament count too then? Just personal preference I suppose. Yea, that's fair as long as Blizzcup and Super Tournaments aren't seen as less than a GSL. I can get why GSL Code S is weighted more heavily than a Homestory Cup, but it becomes nit-picking to say that a Blizzcup or Super Tournament is lesser than a "normal" GSL | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 30 2019 01:51 Bagration wrote: Yea, that's fair as long as Blizzcup and Super Tournaments aren't seen as less than a GSL. I can get why GSL Code S is weighted more heavily than a Homestory Cup, but it becomes nit-picking to say that a Blizzcup or Super Tournament is lesser than a "normal" GSL Nobody said it's less, but let's say GSL titles are Code S titles and we can name the Blizzard cup as GSL ST? On May 29 2019 23:00 Acrofales wrote: Don't really understand anybody who has Classic in their list But even aside from that, if you value GSL so much, how are MC, Zest and Nestea not in there? Whereas you do include soO, Stats, MMA and sOs (and Taeja, but you mentioned him as an exception). If you want MC then I say we need there Rain  | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On May 29 2019 18:31 Xain0n wrote: I cannot unsee what he wrote before editing and I assume he didn't radically change opinion; writing on a forum ensures he may read my answer whenever he wants, as opposed to wasting words as in your example because he has walked away. That's not meant to generate a discussion, in any of case, just to answer once since I was able of reading his original post. One could safely presume that the edit and subsequent message meant that he wanted his original post to be neither read nor answered. Seeing does not compel you to write a reply. I suppose it's all a minor nitpick in the end, but on some level it boggles my mind that some people seemingly can't grasp basic conversational skills. No doubt there are ten thousand egregious breaches of decorum, but at least those people are being intentionally rude. Or maybe the petty temptation to get in the last word was just irresistible to you. | ||
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On May 30 2019 01:51 Bagration wrote: Yea, that's fair as long as Blizzcup and Super Tournaments aren't seen as less than a GSL. I can get why GSL Code S is weighted more heavily than a Homestory Cup, but it becomes nit-picking to say that a Blizzcup or Super Tournament is lesser than a "normal" GSL I count Blizzcup as a world championship personnally, it had more money/hype then a ST/KespaCup. As for GSL I think we are better to stick with the actual GSL + OSL +WCS Korea since it the GSL style preparation format. (except the first 3 I guess) It's all kind of a mess really. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On May 30 2019 06:16 pvsnp wrote: One could safely presume that the edit and subsequent message meant that he wanted his original post to be neither read nor answered. Seeing does not compel you to write a reply. I suppose it's all a minor nitpick in the end, but on some level it boggles my mind that some people seemingly can't grasp basic conversational skills. No doubt there are ten thousand egregious breaches of decorum, but at least those people are being intentionally rude. Or maybe the petty temptation to get in the last word was just irresistible to you. The petty temptation of answering, If this were a conversation he couldn't have unsaid his words. Insisting on your personal vision on this matter isn't any less petty from my point of view, I understood what you want to say. | ||
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
On May 30 2019 08:55 Xain0n wrote: The petty temptation of answering, If this were a conversation he couldn't have unsaid his words. Insisting on your personal vision on this matter isn't any less petty from my point of view, I understood what you want to say. Not really on any side here but what you just described does happen in real life. I've seen it happen multiple times by different people. Two people argue, at one point of them argues back but for some reason (seeing the body language/realizing the person isn't open for discourse) in the same breath as he/she formulates an arguement he/she adds: "nevermind, no point discussing this further" or similar. There are actually people that will even if the person they are discussing with retracts their argument still wants to answer their argument. A common case of petty "getting the last say" phenomenon, you did the equivalent in a forum. Not really a bother to anyone but I get his point. When it happens IRL it usually gets really stiff since one of them dont even want to talk anymore, what should he/she do? Just walk away while the person is speaking.... | ||
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Jealous
10115 Posts
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
I don't know but at least we got results Match 9  MMA: 56 votesTY: 8 votesMMA goes throught!Match 10 Maru: 60 votes HyuN: 6 votesMaru goes throught! | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On May 30 2019 02:29 deacon.frost wrote: Nobody said it's less, but let's say GSL titles are Code S titles and we can name the Blizzard cup as GSL ST? If you want MC then I say we need there Rain MC was in sixteen Premier finals and he actually managed to win six, including two Code S, I can't see him out of top10. | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
 Rain vs Stats: Splitting the archonRain: 1 GSL, 1 OSL, 1 Kespa Cup, 1 WCS Asia, 1 HSC, 14-8 record as STK ace.Stats: 1 GSL, 1 SSL, 1 Super Tournament, 1 Cross final, 1 Blizzcon final, 2 IEM Katowice finalsRain vs Stats is personally one the hardest matches I’ve come across yet, they are both eerily identical in their results, playstyle and the place they similarity of the positions they occupied in the Starcraft word would make a Deleuzian go mad. The community always had a love/hate affair for the protoss race, tending heavily toward hate. It’s frequently considered a cheesy, coinflip race and protoss players are regularly accuse of being either abusers or straight up bullshiting their way to victory against better, more “skill” zerg and terran players. (See Patience for example) In the midst of all this, Rain and Stats both stood as beacons of hope, protoss who showed you could play Starcraft the “right” way.Rain came out of the gate swinging when Kespa abandoned BW to go to SC2. He was by far the best Kespa protoss, and even the best Kespa player overall following the switch. The SKT Protoss achieved the most SC2 wins in the 2011-12 Proleague hybrid season, he reached the top 4 of his first ever GSL, only losing narrowly to Mvp, was the best performing Kespa player in 4 of his 6 first event, and the second best in those last two. And of course, he was the first ever Kespa player to win a tournament just a few months after his SC2 christening. He would go on to win another premier before RorO finally gave another champion.Rain would shock the protoss meta, protoss was still dominate by the MC and PartinG approach of aggressive builds, all-ins and mind games, but Rain would instead bring a slow and strong defensive play, checking all the box to make sure he could go to the late game.Rain ice cold patience would lead him to many success including constant Proleague success as he became Proleague most reliable ace as well as one of the best protoss in the league, playing in some of the league most memorable game. Rain style became the thing every protoss wanted to emulate, (or the one every NA 2 base alliner said they wanted to) although few ever did. Rain manage to get to the final of a second OSL at the start of HOTS, but would get upset by a young Maru on his first championship tour. Rain would instead capture a Kespa cup late 2013, but his first two years of HOTS would be less successful relative to the high standard he met, as his predictability would allow some to skip early game defensive steps and exploit his builds.Nevertheless, he kept being an absolute monster in Proleague earning the constant praise of his comrades until he surprisingly announced he would leave his successful Proleague days behind him leaving SKT for MYI and focussing on individual tournament. The switch also marks a turn away from his pure macro defensive play toward a more mixed approach to the game, something he already was starting to show hints at the end of his time on SKT. On his first showing wearing the MYI jacket he would reach the final of his first IEM, but despite not being able to best HerO he would push him to the limit with a wide array of opening.His first GSL win definitely marked his renewal, as he used not only slow defensive play but also the dreaded, and very much worthy of the bullshit toss etiquette, “Baguette style” to beat BuyL. Rain career would end up prematurely as after he lost a philosophical duel against sOs at the last HOTS Blizzcon, he would step away from the game after ongoing a surgery to give his dad a kidney and later chose BW for his successful return. Just has Rain retired, another protoss took his place as the new hope for a future full of standard, macro defensive play in Stats. After being a successful Proleague specialist on KT Rolster, Stats had a couple of semi-finals in 2015, but reach his first final at the start of LOTV, losing the SSL final vs Dark but immediately beat him back to win his first trophy at the cross final.His results in LOTV would be as stable of his play, being the most consistent protoss since 2016, he won two Korean leagues as well as a Super Tournament. His strong defensive play and chirurgical ability to dominate the mid to late game would lead him to many victory over the Koreans elite, like Classic or INnoVation.As much as he is consistent, Stats maybe lack a certain killer instinct in game, he, like Rain before him, is usually more than happy to let his opponent dictate the pace of the game, believing he’s good enough to win against everything. He is right most of the time but this lack of willing, or ability, to force the occasion may have hurt him as he became somewhat of a Kong. He would go on to lose 7 premier tournaments, including 3 world championship as well as a bunch of semi-final results. Still no other protoss found a better way to play in LOTV as he stayed one of the, if not the best of his race for all the expansion. MC vs Rogue: The champsMC:2 GSL, 1 IEM Word championship, 1 WCS EU, 1 Home Story Cup, 10 premier finalsRogue: 1 Blizzcon, 1 IEM Katowice, 1 IEM, 1 Super Tournament, 8 GSL top 8Looking at the Boss Toss history I was shock to find out just how many second place he got, with 10 silver medals he has stumble at the finish line more time than soO, yet when thinking back to MC we only remember the champion, MC missing an opportunity or choking seemed an oxymoron. MC legacy isn’t random, it’s a tribute to his realist approach to Starcraft 2, both inside and outside the game MC knew how bend the rules to his advantage.Inside the game MC was one of the deadliest protoss we ever saw, his two bases all ins and understanding of the chaos that was WOL pvp made him the first GSL protoss champion (kind of shit game) a feat he would repeat another time before Seed earned his championship over himself The boss toss would go on to win 3 others foreign trophy in WOL, including a victory in his first HSC, a tournament he would go on to be crucial part of. MC went down as easily the best protoss player in WOL reaching 10 premier tournament finals and paved the way for the aggressive protoss standard. MC always knew how to turn an inch into a mile, forcing mistake out his opponent and making sure to kill the game as soon as he could as to not give his opponent the chance of a comeback. It wouldn’t always make for the best of games but MC would have done any old bullshit if it meant another win. Just as he was the first ever BW pro to make the switch to SC2, he would be one of the first to expatriate himself to Europe where he would reach 3 WCS finals winning one of them. He would also be one of the most active player through out all his career, playing in every tournament, which made him the first player to reach the half a million dollars in prize money. MC ability to sense and jump on the occasion was clear outside of the game too, in a scene where most player, and especially Koreans at this time, were seen as having as much personality as a wooden stick, MC fully embraced his role as an entertainer. His many antic, be it his murloc dance, his pop offs, his jovial and funny interviews or his HomeStory Cup casting could be seen as the action of a goofy kid in search of attention and popularity, but while MC clearly like being in the spotlight, he also understood perfectly that for his beloved game to not only survive but thrive it needed spectacle and drama. Making it fun needed to be part of the programmer job. In a scene where a lot of the most outspoken players regularly let popularity get to their head, see IdrA, Dark and NaNiwa for example, MC, while not one to shy away from a good rivalry, always kept his eye on the prize, control his image, make a successful SC2 career and help the scene grow. MC was one of the most influential behind the scene players, as the Korean NoRegreT he helped organize the migration of Koreans player to Europe and North America, setting up a team house, working as an agent and money managers for younger players and pushing his fellow countryman either abroad or in Korea to learn English and show personality behind the cameras.Somewhere between 2014 and 2016, JinAir Rogue stop being a bad B teamer in Proleague and became a regular code S player, and soon after playing in multiple round of 8 in Korea as well as a couple of semi-finals in the few foreign events he could manage to attend. Rogue was hailed as one of the most entertaining and promising zerg. His multiple unorthodox strategy, for example his usage of baneling drop or his usage of spire build in zvz (lien) over the more popular roaches opening, were seen as a breath of fresh air, especially during the last year of HOTS that was rather painful for zergs.Rogue reputation changed completely during the back half of 2016, his victory in IEM Shangai and GSL ST followed by a reunification of the Blizzcon and IEM crown would give Rogue the title of best in the world, a consideration for Bonjwa status and the record for fastest triple crown. His dismantling of the best players in the world sometime with close back and forth series (like vs HerO or TY) both most of the time one sided beating.Rogue unprecedented string of victories should have been enough to carve him a place in the SC2 pantheon, but instead his new found popularity attracted on him another kind of attention as the dreaded P word was utter. (an article that definitely say Rogue is a no skills noob) As 2017 came to pass and Rogue went back to his regular top 8 results, some were comforted in their measurement of his accomplishment. For them Rogue was a top tier player who got the big end of the stick in a patch and meta game carved for him. Maybe they are right, since hydras got nerfed Rogue as only a single semi-final to his name although it was at Blizzcon), but all the doubt and joke in the world can’t erase the fact that Rogue is sitting at the top of a mountain of money with a full trophy cabinet. Polls are open until Saturday may around 8pm EST Theses polls are closed | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
Like I said no articles next sathurday unless someone else want to do it, but don't worry polls continue as usual. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
Also, it's notable that has some sort of crown for winning once all the korean premier tournaments in LoTV and that the other finals he lost were in very relevant competitions(Code S ,SSL, IEM, GSL vs the World). The Shield of Aiur goes along with the Boss Toss! | ||
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
On May 30 2019 10:34 Nakajin wrote: Is there such a thing as an end? I don't know but at least we got results Match 9 MMA: 56 votesTY: 8 votesMMA goes throught!Match 10 Maru: 60 votesHyuN: 6 votesMaru goes throught!Glad to see MMA make it through - unfortunately that's probably the end of his run. Hard to see him get through Maru next round | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
Edit: Even though Rain might not be greatest SC2 player, it's either him, Soulkey or Jaedong who are the greatest across both games. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24921 Posts
But yeah it probably is Stats tbh, especially with the Proleague record posted above me. He falls into the period I wasn’t following Starcraft and am catching up on so I suppose that’s part of it | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15914 Posts
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neutralrobot
Australia1025 Posts
![[image loading]](https://tl.net/staff/Fionn/bysun.gif) Stats is well respected, but he's not sending women into fits of hysteria by high-fiving them. I think you people have your ranking priorities mixed up. | ||
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