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Northern Ireland26358 Posts
On May 14 2019 07:02 Yonnua wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2019 05:42 Dave4 wrote:
The brackets are a bit unfortunate in my view. Serral and Classic in the ro32, then Serral and Innovation in ro16.
I think most would agree that Serral and Innovation are both top-4 contenders. We will have to keep this fact in mind when we look at the end result - dropping out in the ro32 or ro16 doesn't mean Serral (or Innovation) isn't one of the 5 best of all time. I don't think "most would agree" that a player who's never even competed in GSL is one of the four greatest players of all time.
Top 8 absolutely, top 4 I agree should be pretty damn debatable
Personal weighting counts, do you weight longevity, absolute peak level of play shown or strategical impact and innovation and how much do you do so?
Serral for me is in this weird zone where he’s almost always massively overrated (some people claim he is the legit GOAT) or underrated by people who ignore watching how impressive his games actually are because he didn’t uproot his life and move to Korea to play GSL
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Canada8989 Posts
On May 14 2019 08:55 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2019 07:02 Yonnua wrote:On May 14 2019 05:42 Dave4 wrote:
The brackets are a bit unfortunate in my view. Serral and Classic in the ro32, then Serral and Innovation in ro16.
I think most would agree that Serral and Innovation are both top-4 contenders. We will have to keep this fact in mind when we look at the end result - dropping out in the ro32 or ro16 doesn't mean Serral (or Innovation) isn't one of the 5 best of all time. I don't think "most would agree" that a player who's never even competed in GSL is one of the four greatest players of all time. Top 8 absolutely, top 4 I agree should be pretty damn debatable Personal weighting counts, do you weight longevity, absolute peak level of play shown or strategical impact and innovation and how much do you do so? Serral for me is in this weird zone where he’s almost always massively overrated (some people claim he is the legit GOAT) or underrated by people who ignore watching how impressive his games actually are because he didn’t uproot his life and move to Korea to play GSL
Top 8 Serral was a lock to me before I started to think about it, but man when you start to look at it it's hard as hell.
How is really worst than him to knock out the top 8; soO? MMA? sOs? Stats? MC? Zest? Is it really clear that he's a greater player than them? Cause some of them (and others) need to be kick out, maybe he his, but that top 8 is stack at hell, there isn't place for everyone.
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How to place Serral not only depends on how much folks value GSL over other foreign tournaments, but also peak vs. longevity. Is it better to get more premiers over a long time but never be considered the best of the world, or get fewer premiers over a single year and be considered the best, however briefly?
If you value peak, Serral's 2018 dominance might be the greatest run in SC2 thus far, eclipsing Nestea's 2011, Mvp's 2011, Innovation's 2013, and probably Maru's 2018-2019. That's where you might get that top 4 argument.
I'm personally in favor of longevity, because to be the GOAT, it's best to win across multiple patches, meta-games, and even game versions (WoL vs. HotS vs. LotV)
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Serral was undisputed number 1 in the world for about 3 months which is a really short amount of time. But there haven't been that many players who could ever be considered undisputed number 1 at a point in time. So it's basically do you value being top 10-15 for many years or number 1 for a very short time more.
I also think sOs deserves much more support for greatest of all time. He won the world championship twice and had the most career wins in Proleague. He hasn't won a GSL but the accomplishments that are next to his name are imo more impressive than winning a GSL.
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It's not trolling to say Serral is in the top 4 discussion at all. In my view his peak unbeaten streak can't be matched by any other player ever - even peak Life or MVP or Inno never had a streak of 6 premier tournaments in a row, or 9 months without dropping a single offline series. That is absolutely unmatchable. Serral also did this at a time when no other Zergs were winning tournaments, and with no team house assistance.
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On May 14 2019 13:59 Dave4 wrote:
It's not trolling to say Serral is in the top 4 discussion at all. In my view his peak unbeaten streak can't be matched by any other player ever - even peak Life or MVP or Inno never had a streak of 6 premier tournaments in a row, or 9 months without dropping a single offline series. That is absolutely unmatchable. Serral also did this at a time when no other Zergs were winning tournaments, and with no team house assistance.
He also did this outside of Korea.
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On May 14 2019 14:47 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2019 13:59 Dave4 wrote:
It's not trolling to say Serral is in the top 4 discussion at all. In my view his peak unbeaten streak can't be matched by any other player ever - even peak Life or MVP or Inno never had a streak of 6 premier tournaments in a row, or 9 months without dropping a single offline series. That is absolutely unmatchable. Serral also did this at a time when no other Zergs were winning tournaments, and with no team house assistance. He also did this outside of Korea everywhere.
Fixed that for you 
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On May 14 2019 14:47 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2019 13:59 Dave4 wrote:
It's not trolling to say Serral is in the top 4 discussion at all. In my view his peak unbeaten streak can't be matched by any other player ever - even peak Life or MVP or Inno never had a streak of 6 premier tournaments in a row, or 9 months without dropping a single offline series. That is absolutely unmatchable. Serral also did this at a time when no other Zergs were winning tournaments, and with no team house assistance. He also did this outside of Korea.
Now who's trolling? Pretty sure multiple of these were against many Koreans including when he won a GSL and the biggest tournament of all, BlizzCon.
Players he defeated in the aforementioned unbeaten run (until it's conclusion) include: Maru, Innovation, Stats, Dark, Rogue, sOs, Zest, soO, Trap, Bunny, Taeja, Solar, Ragnarok, Gumiho.
That's basically a who's who of Korea.
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On May 14 2019 19:01 Dave4 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2019 14:47 Jealous wrote:On May 14 2019 13:59 Dave4 wrote:
It's not trolling to say Serral is in the top 4 discussion at all. In my view his peak unbeaten streak can't be matched by any other player ever - even peak Life or MVP or Inno never had a streak of 6 premier tournaments in a row, or 9 months without dropping a single offline series. That is absolutely unmatchable. Serral also did this at a time when no other Zergs were winning tournaments, and with no team house assistance. He also did this outside of Korea. Now who's trolling? Pretty sure multiple of these were against many Koreans including when he won a GSL and the biggest tournament of all, BlizzCon. Players he defeated in the aforementioned unbeaten run (until it's conclusion) include: Maru, Innovation, Stats, Dark, Rogue, sOs, Zest, soO, Trap, Bunny, Taeja, Solar, Ragnarok, Gumiho. That's basically a who's who of Korea.
The main problem I have with Serral is the fact that he's not had the longevity. Sure, I rate him as the GOAT foreigner because really the only player that is comparable is Neeb. The problem with overall GOAT status is that while his streak of dominance is arguably better than the likes of MVP or Life, he has neither the premier wins nor the consistency to be comparable to either. Let's keep in mind that he won all his achievements inside of one year. Now if he were to win another Blizzcon or GSL vs The World that would significantly strengthen his case.
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On May 14 2019 19:23 Z3nith wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2019 19:01 Dave4 wrote:On May 14 2019 14:47 Jealous wrote:On May 14 2019 13:59 Dave4 wrote:
It's not trolling to say Serral is in the top 4 discussion at all. In my view his peak unbeaten streak can't be matched by any other player ever - even peak Life or MVP or Inno never had a streak of 6 premier tournaments in a row, or 9 months without dropping a single offline series. That is absolutely unmatchable. Serral also did this at a time when no other Zergs were winning tournaments, and with no team house assistance. He also did this outside of Korea. Now who's trolling? Pretty sure multiple of these were against many Koreans including when he won a GSL and the biggest tournament of all, BlizzCon. Players he defeated in the aforementioned unbeaten run (until it's conclusion) include: Maru, Innovation, Stats, Dark, Rogue, sOs, Zest, soO, Trap, Bunny, Taeja, Solar, Ragnarok, Gumiho. That's basically a who's who of Korea. The main problem I have with Serral is the fact that he's not had the longevity. Sure, I rate him as the GOAT foreigner because really the only player that is comparable is Neeb. The problem with overall GOAT status is that while his streak of dominance is arguably better than the likes of MVP or Life, he has neither the premier wins nor the consistency to be comparable to either. Let's keep in mind that he won all his achievements inside of one year. Now if he were to win another Blizzcon or GSL vs The World that would significantly strengthen his case.
He also hasn't really had time. His pro career started in 2017, and he went on a tear in 2018. I don't disagree with you that he isn't GOAT until he shows more longevity, but given his career is barely 2 years old, he hasn't even had the time to prove longevity. He has shown peak performance that surpasses pretty much everyone else who came before.
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Canada8989 Posts
On May 14 2019 19:27 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2019 19:23 Z3nith wrote:On May 14 2019 19:01 Dave4 wrote:On May 14 2019 14:47 Jealous wrote:On May 14 2019 13:59 Dave4 wrote:
It's not trolling to say Serral is in the top 4 discussion at all. In my view his peak unbeaten streak can't be matched by any other player ever - even peak Life or MVP or Inno never had a streak of 6 premier tournaments in a row, or 9 months without dropping a single offline series. That is absolutely unmatchable. Serral also did this at a time when no other Zergs were winning tournaments, and with no team house assistance. He also did this outside of Korea. Now who's trolling? Pretty sure multiple of these were against many Koreans including when he won a GSL and the biggest tournament of all, BlizzCon. Players he defeated in the aforementioned unbeaten run (until it's conclusion) include: Maru, Innovation, Stats, Dark, Rogue, sOs, Zest, soO, Trap, Bunny, Taeja, Solar, Ragnarok, Gumiho. That's basically a who's who of Korea. The main problem I have with Serral is the fact that he's not had the longevity. Sure, I rate him as the GOAT foreigner because really the only player that is comparable is Neeb. The problem with overall GOAT status is that while his streak of dominance is arguably better than the likes of MVP or Life, he has neither the premier wins nor the consistency to be comparable to either. Let's keep in mind that he won all his achievements inside of one year. Now if he were to win another Blizzcon or GSL vs The World that would significantly strengthen his case. He also hasn't really had time. His pro career started in 2017, and he went on a tear in 2018. I don't disagree with you that he isn't GOAT until he shows more longevity, but given his career is barely 2 years old, he hasn't even had the time to prove longevity. He has shown peak performance that surpasses pretty much everyone else who came before.
Yes and no, he did start playing a lot in offline tournament in 2017, but he was at least semi-pro before that, his first tournament was in 2012.
He's quite the late bloomer if you compare him to players like TaeJa, Leenock or INno. 5 years to get to the pro scene level, even part time, is quite long compare to some others, he could have had the time to rack the results for a while.
But sure his time as the top is still beggining as opposed to a lot of the player here.
Also, come on guys don't let Solar down 
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On May 14 2019 19:01 Dave4 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2019 14:47 Jealous wrote:On May 14 2019 13:59 Dave4 wrote:
It's not trolling to say Serral is in the top 4 discussion at all. In my view his peak unbeaten streak can't be matched by any other player ever - even peak Life or MVP or Inno never had a streak of 6 premier tournaments in a row, or 9 months without dropping a single offline series. That is absolutely unmatchable. Serral also did this at a time when no other Zergs were winning tournaments, and with no team house assistance. He also did this outside of Korea. Now who's trolling? Pretty sure multiple of these were against many Koreans including when he won a GSL and the biggest tournament of all, BlizzCon. Players he defeated in the aforementioned unbeaten run (until it's conclusion) include: Maru, Innovation, Stats, Dark, Rogue, sOs, Zest, soO, Trap, Bunny, Taeja, Solar, Ragnarok, Gumiho. That's basically a who's who of Korea.
What he did against koreans is on the same level (winning 2 tournaments in a row) is on the same level as what ByuN and Dear did during their peaks and less than Rogue did in late 2017.
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Solar vs GuMiho is a real nailbiter!
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Northern Ireland26358 Posts
On May 14 2019 11:15 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2019 08:55 Wombat_NI wrote:On May 14 2019 07:02 Yonnua wrote:On May 14 2019 05:42 Dave4 wrote:
The brackets are a bit unfortunate in my view. Serral and Classic in the ro32, then Serral and Innovation in ro16.
I think most would agree that Serral and Innovation are both top-4 contenders. We will have to keep this fact in mind when we look at the end result - dropping out in the ro32 or ro16 doesn't mean Serral (or Innovation) isn't one of the 5 best of all time. I don't think "most would agree" that a player who's never even competed in GSL is one of the four greatest players of all time. Top 8 absolutely, top 4 I agree should be pretty damn debatable Personal weighting counts, do you weight longevity, absolute peak level of play shown or strategical impact and innovation and how much do you do so? Serral for me is in this weird zone where he’s almost always massively overrated (some people claim he is the legit GOAT) or underrated by people who ignore watching how impressive his games actually are because he didn’t uproot his life and move to Korea to play GSL Top 8 Serral was a lock to me before I started to think about it, but man when you start to look at it it's hard as hell. How is really worst than him to knock out the top 8; soO? MMA? sOs? Stats? MC? Zest? Is it really clear that he's a greater player than them? Cause some of them (and others) need to be kick out, maybe he his, but that top 8 is stack at hell, there isn't place for everyone.
And that’s not even including Rain, or Zergs either! Yeah it does get pretty tough. I want to have someone up there just for the peak of their actual play rather than other factors and Serral was a monster in that period, while not winning every game he was playing Starcraft ‘right’, decision making, scouting and mechanics at a really fearsome level for ages.
In football/soccer players like Ronaldinho and George Best are legendary greats of their eras despite their talent burning quite short, I think longevity is absolutely important in separating players of similar peaks but I’d weight someone with a higher peak a little more.
If I had a tier system I’d maybe have a top 3 of Mvp, Inno and Maru and then maybe a next 10 of roughly the same tier, maybe even more than 10.
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On May 14 2019 20:09 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2019 19:01 Dave4 wrote:On May 14 2019 14:47 Jealous wrote:On May 14 2019 13:59 Dave4 wrote:
It's not trolling to say Serral is in the top 4 discussion at all. In my view his peak unbeaten streak can't be matched by any other player ever - even peak Life or MVP or Inno never had a streak of 6 premier tournaments in a row, or 9 months without dropping a single offline series. That is absolutely unmatchable. Serral also did this at a time when no other Zergs were winning tournaments, and with no team house assistance. He also did this outside of Korea. Now who's trolling? Pretty sure multiple of these were against many Koreans including when he won a GSL and the biggest tournament of all, BlizzCon. Players he defeated in the aforementioned unbeaten run (until it's conclusion) include: Maru, Innovation, Stats, Dark, Rogue, sOs, Zest, soO, Trap, Bunny, Taeja, Solar, Ragnarok, Gumiho. That's basically a who's who of Korea. What he did against koreans is on the same level (winning 2 tournaments in a row) is on the same level as what ByuN and Dear did during their peaks and less than Rogue did in late 2017.
I just love that the trolls always completely discard all other evidence that doesn't fit their argument. Ignore that they were the two biggest tournaments, ignore that he had 9 months unbeaten (no-one is comparable ever BW or SC2), ignore every tournament outside of Korea...
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Northern Ireland26358 Posts
There’s some squash player who won something like 550 competitive games consecutively. Were all of those guys absolutely elite level players? No, but plenty were, but a streak that big and never having a sufficient off day are really impressive in and of themselves.
Serral’s streak was pretty crazy, even if he won the same tournaments but it was scrappier, he drops some matches in groups or into loser’s bracket or whatever, it ends up less impressive
The tournament streak is really augmented by the win streak IMO, Dark’s foreigner killer streak was pretty crazy too, but underrated really.
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On May 14 2019 21:02 Dave4 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2019 20:09 Charoisaur wrote:On May 14 2019 19:01 Dave4 wrote:On May 14 2019 14:47 Jealous wrote:On May 14 2019 13:59 Dave4 wrote:
It's not trolling to say Serral is in the top 4 discussion at all. In my view his peak unbeaten streak can't be matched by any other player ever - even peak Life or MVP or Inno never had a streak of 6 premier tournaments in a row, or 9 months without dropping a single offline series. That is absolutely unmatchable. Serral also did this at a time when no other Zergs were winning tournaments, and with no team house assistance. He also did this outside of Korea. Now who's trolling? Pretty sure multiple of these were against many Koreans including when he won a GSL and the biggest tournament of all, BlizzCon. Players he defeated in the aforementioned unbeaten run (until it's conclusion) include: Maru, Innovation, Stats, Dark, Rogue, sOs, Zest, soO, Trap, Bunny, Taeja, Solar, Ragnarok, Gumiho. That's basically a who's who of Korea. What he did against koreans is on the same level (winning 2 tournaments in a row) is on the same level as what ByuN and Dear did during their peaks and less than Rogue did in late 2017. I just love that the trolls always completely discard all other evidence that doesn't fit their argument. Ignore that they were the two biggest tournaments, ignore that he had 9 months unbeaten (no-one is comparable ever BW or SC2), ignore every tournament outside of Korea...
Yeah call the people that disagree with you trolls, that makes you right and they wrong because trolls cant be right, right?
There's different opinions here, doesn't mean you are right and everyone else is wrong. Its subjective, there is no right.
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Serral isn't even top 10 at this point, even if one would agree with the statement that his peak was the highest ever, you don't become extra points for that (at least not noticeably so) just because his success was more clustered. He lacks success compared to a lot of other players who were at the top over multiple years.
Though i have to say that jealous basically having a similar pov makes me question if i am right
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On May 15 2019 05:48 The_Red_Viper wrote:Serral isn't even top 10 at this point, even if one would agree with the statement that his peak was the highest ever, you don't become extra points for that (at least not noticeably so) just because his success was more clustered. He lacks success compared to a lot of other players who were at the top over multiple years. Though i have to say that jealous basically having a similar pov makes me question if i am right
This is one of those rare, one in a million times that you are right. Serral is like Yao Ming if he never played in the USA outside of two tournaments, one of which was more of an invite-only showmatch than anything; he was a big fish in a small pond in China and people like Dave4 in China would probably call him the top 4 of all time simply because he dominated his competition in a weaker player pool in your neck of the woods. Don't forget that Blizzard intentionally put a divide between the Korean and foreign scene to give the jingoistic foreigners a chance to root for their subpar players without Koreans coming and taking all the money. Users like Dave4 are the target market and resulting outlook that Blizzard was catering to.
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Northern Ireland26358 Posts
On May 15 2019 07:10 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2019 05:48 The_Red_Viper wrote:Serral isn't even top 10 at this point, even if one would agree with the statement that his peak was the highest ever, you don't become extra points for that (at least not noticeably so) just because his success was more clustered. He lacks success compared to a lot of other players who were at the top over multiple years. Though i have to say that jealous basically having a similar pov makes me question if i am right This is one of those rare, one in a million times that you are right. Serral is like Yao Ming if he never played in the USA outside of two tournaments, one of which was more of an invite-only showmatch than anything; he was a big fish in a small pond in China and people like Dave4 in China would probably call him the top 4 of all time simply because he dominated his competition in a weaker player pool in your neck of the woods. Don't forget that Blizzard intentionally put a divide between the Korean and foreign scene to give the jingoistic foreigners a chance to root for their subpar players without Koreans coming and taking all the money. Users like Dave4 are the target market and resulting outlook that Blizzard was catering to.
I mean, maybe, maybe structuring it in such a way to enable foreigners to play properly full time and grow was structurally a good decision.
The scene needs some sustainability too,
As per your example well, Yao Ming developed in China and played in the NBA when he’d outgrown that environment.
This is how any successful sport works. Northern Irish football is garbage tier compared to the top leagues, but players can pay the bills with it and the best (if not picked up very young already) can move up to Scotland or maybe England if they’re very very good.
The prior situation moved from the initial top 1-2 big name Koreans like Mvp adding prestige and hype by playing MLGs to every half decent Korean playing in them.
No scene is ever going to thrive when it’s be literally a top ten player in the whole world or you can’t actually do it and pay the bills. You can stream or coach, or work a part time job and try to close a skill gap with players already better than you by, having less time to devote to it.
Yes I want to see the best Starcraft level possible, but you don’t get that without structure. Koreans have established depth through the BW developments, team houses and real interest in the games there, Europe has better players since the region lock, and has a relative outlier in Serral who has come on a lot, the Americas haven’t pushed on because for other reasons they have less full timers, but the ones they have in Neeb, Scarlett and Special are all GSL standard competitive
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EPT
