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Here's a breakdown of what Serral and Classic had to do to get their achievements:
Serral
WCS Leipzig:
+ Show Spoiler +Beats: Stephano, Namshar, Masa, Nerchio, Special, Showtime
WCS Austin
+ Show Spoiler +Beats: TLO, Clem, Kelazhur, HeroMarine, Lambo, Mana
WCS Valencia
+ Show Spoiler +Beats: Bly, Mana, Scarlett, Reynor, HeroMarine, Has
WCS Montreal
+ Show Spoiler +Beats: Denver, Stephano, JonSnow, Scarlett, Lambo, Reynor
GSL vs World
+ Show Spoiler +Kelazhur, Innovation, Dark, Stats
Blizzcon:
+ Show Spoiler +Beats: sOs, Zest, Dark, Rogue, Stats
WCS Jonkoping Final:
+ Show Spoiler +Beats: Mana, Scarlett, Stephano, PtitDrogo, Elazer
Loses to: Neeb
WCS Winter Final:
+ Show Spoiler +Beats: SoulSpirit, Namshar, Rail, Harstem, Elazer, Lambo, PtitDrogo, Rail, ShowTime, HeroMarine
Loses to: HeroMarine, Reynor, Reynor
WESG Final:
+ Show Spoiler +Beats: Masa, msrm, Harstem, Showtime, Mana, Dark, Scarlett
Loses to: Neeb, Innovation
Across all of these tournaments, he's beaten (maybe) 7 top foreigners and 9 top Koreans.
Classic
GSL:
+ Show Spoiler +Beats:Hydra, Hydra, Parting, soo, Paralyze, Maru, soo
Loses to: Life
SSL:
+ Show Spoiler +Beats: Soulkey, Hyun, Byul, Stats, Dream
Loses to: Dream
2018 ST:
+ Show Spoiler +Beats: TY, Creator, Dark, sOs
2019 ST:
+ Show Spoiler +Beats: soo, Patience, sOs, Gumiho
IEM:
+ Show Spoiler +Beats: Yonghwa, Rain, Losira, herO, Parting
Loses to: Snute
2015 Blizzcon SF:
+ Show Spoiler +Beats: Byul, herO
Loses to: Life
2014 Blizzcon SF:
+ Show Spoiler +Beats: Polt, herO
Loses to: MMA
GSL Finals:
+ Show Spoiler +Beats: True, Trap, Trap, sOs, Rogue, Dark
Loses to: Maru
IEM World Championship Finals:
+ Show Spoiler +Beats: sOs, Trap, Ryung, HeroMarine, Elazer, Dear, Serral
Loses to: Rogue
Across all of these tournaments, he's beaten a top foreigner and 22 top Koreans.
This just shouldn't be any kind of discussion: even the additional reaching comment of "Serral's streak" is mostly against players like Lambo, Namshar, or msrm. I fail to believe that Classic would not also have won against these guys if he had been playing in WCS rather than GSL.
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On May 16 2019 19:25 Yonnua wrote:Here's a breakdown of what Serral and Classic had to do to get their achievements: SerralWCS Leipzig: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Stephano, Namshar, Masa, Nerchio, Special, Showtime WCS Austin + Show Spoiler +Beats: TLO, Clem, Kelazhur, HeroMarine, Lambo, Mana WCS Valencia + Show Spoiler +Beats: Bly, Mana, Scarlett, Reynor, HeroMarine, Has WCS Montreal + Show Spoiler +Beats: Denver, Stephano, JonSnow, Scarlett, Lambo, Reynor GSL vs World + Show Spoiler +Kelazhur, Innovation, Dark, Stats Blizzcon: + Show Spoiler +Beats: sOs, Zest, Dark, Rogue, Stats WCS Jonkoping Final: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Mana, Scarlett, Stephano, PtitDrogo, Elazer
Loses to: Neeb WCS Winter Final: + Show Spoiler +Beats: SoulSpirit, Namshar, Rail, Harstem, Elazer, Lambo, PtitDrogo, Rail, ShowTime, HeroMarine
Loses to: HeroMarine, Reynor, Reynor WESG Final: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Masa, msrm, Harstem, Showtime, Mana, Dark, Scarlett
Loses to: Neeb, Innovation Across all of these tournaments, he's beaten (maybe) 7 top foreigners and 9 top Koreans. ClassicGSL: + Show Spoiler +Beats:Hydra, Hydra, Parting, soo, Paralyze, Maru, soo
Loses to: Life SSL: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Soulkey, Hyun, Byul, Stats, Dream
Loses to: Dream 2018 ST: + Show Spoiler +Beats: TY, Creator, Dark, sOs 2019 ST: + Show Spoiler +Beats: soo, Patience, sOs, Gumiho IEM: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Yonghwa, Rain, Losira, herO, Parting
Loses to: Snute 2015 Blizzcon SF: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Byul, herO
Loses to: Life 2014 Blizzcon SF: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Polt, herO
Loses to: MMA GSL Finals: + Show Spoiler +Beats: True, Trap, Trap, sOs, Rogue, Dark
Loses to: Maru IEM World Championship Finals: + Show Spoiler +Beats: sOs, Trap, Ryung, HeroMarine, Elazer, Dear, Serral
Loses to: Rogue Across all of these tournaments, he's beaten a top foreigner and 22 top Koreans. This just shouldn't be any kind of discussion: even the additional reaching comment of "Serral's streak" is mostly against players like Lambo, Namshar, or msrm. I fail to believe that Classic would not also have won against these guys if he had been playing in WCS rather than GSL.
For your information, Serral's streak is also(but not limited to) the best streak ever recorded against koreans, most of those being top ones(no Paralyze and the likes).
Isn't it kind of pointless to underline that a korean player playing in Korea had to play against more koreans?
Are we speaking of the same Classic losing 2-0 against Special at BlizzCon 2018? I think it's unlikely Classic would have won four consecutive WCS last year and definitely he couldn't have achieved Serral's streak.
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On May 16 2019 19:36 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2019 19:25 Yonnua wrote:Here's a breakdown of what Serral and Classic had to do to get their achievements: SerralWCS Leipzig: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Stephano, Namshar, Masa, Nerchio, Special, Showtime WCS Austin + Show Spoiler +Beats: TLO, Clem, Kelazhur, HeroMarine, Lambo, Mana WCS Valencia + Show Spoiler +Beats: Bly, Mana, Scarlett, Reynor, HeroMarine, Has WCS Montreal + Show Spoiler +Beats: Denver, Stephano, JonSnow, Scarlett, Lambo, Reynor GSL vs World + Show Spoiler +Kelazhur, Innovation, Dark, Stats Blizzcon: + Show Spoiler +Beats: sOs, Zest, Dark, Rogue, Stats WCS Jonkoping Final: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Mana, Scarlett, Stephano, PtitDrogo, Elazer
Loses to: Neeb WCS Winter Final: + Show Spoiler +Beats: SoulSpirit, Namshar, Rail, Harstem, Elazer, Lambo, PtitDrogo, Rail, ShowTime, HeroMarine
Loses to: HeroMarine, Reynor, Reynor WESG Final: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Masa, msrm, Harstem, Showtime, Mana, Dark, Scarlett
Loses to: Neeb, Innovation Across all of these tournaments, he's beaten (maybe) 7 top foreigners and 9 top Koreans. ClassicGSL: + Show Spoiler +Beats:Hydra, Hydra, Parting, soo, Paralyze, Maru, soo
Loses to: Life SSL: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Soulkey, Hyun, Byul, Stats, Dream
Loses to: Dream 2018 ST: + Show Spoiler +Beats: TY, Creator, Dark, sOs 2019 ST: + Show Spoiler +Beats: soo, Patience, sOs, Gumiho IEM: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Yonghwa, Rain, Losira, herO, Parting
Loses to: Snute 2015 Blizzcon SF: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Byul, herO
Loses to: Life 2014 Blizzcon SF: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Polt, herO
Loses to: MMA GSL Finals: + Show Spoiler +Beats: True, Trap, Trap, sOs, Rogue, Dark
Loses to: Maru IEM World Championship Finals: + Show Spoiler +Beats: sOs, Trap, Ryung, HeroMarine, Elazer, Dear, Serral
Loses to: Rogue Across all of these tournaments, he's beaten a top foreigner and 22 top Koreans. This just shouldn't be any kind of discussion: even the additional reaching comment of "Serral's streak" is mostly against players like Lambo, Namshar, or msrm. I fail to believe that Classic would not also have won against these guys if he had been playing in WCS rather than GSL. For your information, Serral's streak is also(but not limited to) the best streak ever recorded against koreans, most of those being top ones(no Paralyze and the likes). Isn't it kind of pointless to underline that a korean player playing in Korea had to play against more koreans? Are we speaking of the same Classic losing 2-0 against Special at BlizzCon 2018? I think it's unlikely Classic would have won four consecutive WCS last year and definitely he couldn't have achieved Serral's streak.
So for clarity, which or Lambo and Namshar do you think would have knocked Classic out of WCS?
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On May 16 2019 19:25 Yonnua wrote:Here's a breakdown of what Serral and Classic had to do to get their achievements: SerralWCS Leipzig: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Stephano, Namshar, Masa, Nerchio, Special, Showtime WCS Austin + Show Spoiler +Beats: TLO, Clem, Kelazhur, HeroMarine, Lambo, Mana WCS Valencia + Show Spoiler +Beats: Bly, Mana, Scarlett, Reynor, HeroMarine, Has WCS Montreal + Show Spoiler +Beats: Denver, Stephano, JonSnow, Scarlett, Lambo, Reynor GSL vs World + Show Spoiler +Kelazhur, Innovation, Dark, Stats Blizzcon: + Show Spoiler +Beats: sOs, Zest, Dark, Rogue, Stats WCS Jonkoping Final: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Mana, Scarlett, Stephano, PtitDrogo, Elazer
Loses to: Neeb WCS Winter Final: + Show Spoiler +Beats: SoulSpirit, Namshar, Rail, Harstem, Elazer, Lambo, PtitDrogo, Rail, ShowTime, HeroMarine
Loses to: HeroMarine, Reynor, Reynor WESG Final: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Masa, msrm, Harstem, Showtime, Mana, Dark, Scarlett
Loses to: Neeb, Innovation Across all of these tournaments, he's beaten (maybe) 7 top foreigners and 9 top Koreans. ClassicGSL: + Show Spoiler +Beats:Hydra, Hydra, Parting, soo, Paralyze, Maru, soo
Loses to: Life SSL: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Soulkey, Hyun, Byul, Stats, Dream
Loses to: Dream 2018 ST: + Show Spoiler +Beats: TY, Creator, Dark, sOs 2019 ST: + Show Spoiler +Beats: soo, Patience, sOs, Gumiho IEM: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Yonghwa, Rain, Losira, herO, Parting
Loses to: Snute 2015 Blizzcon SF: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Byul, herO
Loses to: Life 2014 Blizzcon SF: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Polt, herO
Loses to: MMA GSL Finals: + Show Spoiler +Beats: True, Trap, Trap, sOs, Rogue, Dark
Loses to: Maru IEM World Championship Finals: + Show Spoiler +Beats: sOs, Trap, Ryung, HeroMarine, Elazer, Dear, Serral
Loses to: Rogue Across all of these tournaments, he's beaten a top foreigner and 22 top Koreans. This just shouldn't be any kind of discussion: even the additional reaching comment of "Serral's streak" is mostly against players like Lambo, Namshar, or msrm. I fail to believe that Classic would not also have won against these guys if he had been playing in WCS rather than GSL.
And during all that time was Classic ever considered "great"? Or just "good"? Because I don't remember Classic ever as someone who *really* stood out from the pack. There was always a Life, an Innovation, or one of the other Protoss players (Zest, Dear, sOs) who outright overshadowed him. He's only just now really coming into the spotlight. By merit of "being in Korea" for as long as he has (and being a very good player, don't get me wrong), he has beaten those protoss.
Now lets look at the flip side of that coin. How many people beat Serral during all those achievements?
0/9 top Koreans beat Serral during his hot streak (9 top Koreans are simply your stats. I'm only pointing out that he *didn't* lose).
Meanwhile, those same achievements for Classic ended with him losing to:
Rogue, Maru, MMA, Life x2, Snute (lol), and Dream (and we're disregarding the countless tournaments in between where he didn't reach the top 4, and lost way before to god-knows-who (I could look this up, but am too lazy))
Yes, they were probably tougher tournaments, and he did very well. But ultimately, he lost most of those, whereas Serral *won*.
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On May 16 2019 19:38 Yonnua wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2019 19:36 Xain0n wrote:On May 16 2019 19:25 Yonnua wrote:Here's a breakdown of what Serral and Classic had to do to get their achievements: SerralWCS Leipzig: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Stephano, Namshar, Masa, Nerchio, Special, Showtime WCS Austin + Show Spoiler +Beats: TLO, Clem, Kelazhur, HeroMarine, Lambo, Mana WCS Valencia + Show Spoiler +Beats: Bly, Mana, Scarlett, Reynor, HeroMarine, Has WCS Montreal + Show Spoiler +Beats: Denver, Stephano, JonSnow, Scarlett, Lambo, Reynor GSL vs World + Show Spoiler +Kelazhur, Innovation, Dark, Stats Blizzcon: + Show Spoiler +Beats: sOs, Zest, Dark, Rogue, Stats WCS Jonkoping Final: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Mana, Scarlett, Stephano, PtitDrogo, Elazer
Loses to: Neeb WCS Winter Final: + Show Spoiler +Beats: SoulSpirit, Namshar, Rail, Harstem, Elazer, Lambo, PtitDrogo, Rail, ShowTime, HeroMarine
Loses to: HeroMarine, Reynor, Reynor WESG Final: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Masa, msrm, Harstem, Showtime, Mana, Dark, Scarlett
Loses to: Neeb, Innovation Across all of these tournaments, he's beaten (maybe) 7 top foreigners and 9 top Koreans. ClassicGSL: + Show Spoiler +Beats:Hydra, Hydra, Parting, soo, Paralyze, Maru, soo
Loses to: Life SSL: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Soulkey, Hyun, Byul, Stats, Dream
Loses to: Dream 2018 ST: + Show Spoiler +Beats: TY, Creator, Dark, sOs 2019 ST: + Show Spoiler +Beats: soo, Patience, sOs, Gumiho IEM: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Yonghwa, Rain, Losira, herO, Parting
Loses to: Snute 2015 Blizzcon SF: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Byul, herO
Loses to: Life 2014 Blizzcon SF: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Polt, herO
Loses to: MMA GSL Finals: + Show Spoiler +Beats: True, Trap, Trap, sOs, Rogue, Dark
Loses to: Maru IEM World Championship Finals: + Show Spoiler +Beats: sOs, Trap, Ryung, HeroMarine, Elazer, Dear, Serral
Loses to: Rogue Across all of these tournaments, he's beaten a top foreigner and 22 top Koreans. This just shouldn't be any kind of discussion: even the additional reaching comment of "Serral's streak" is mostly against players like Lambo, Namshar, or msrm. I fail to believe that Classic would not also have won against these guys if he had been playing in WCS rather than GSL. For your information, Serral's streak is also(but not limited to) the best streak ever recorded against koreans, most of those being top ones(no Paralyze and the likes). Isn't it kind of pointless to underline that a korean player playing in Korea had to play against more koreans? Are we speaking of the same Classic losing 2-0 against Special at BlizzCon 2018? I think it's unlikely Classic would have won four consecutive WCS last year and definitely he couldn't have achieved Serral's streak. So for clarity, which or Lambo and Namshar do you think would have knocked Classic out of WCS?
Apparently, Snute would have.
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On May 16 2019 19:42 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2019 19:25 Yonnua wrote:Here's a breakdown of what Serral and Classic had to do to get their achievements: SerralWCS Leipzig: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Stephano, Namshar, Masa, Nerchio, Special, Showtime WCS Austin + Show Spoiler +Beats: TLO, Clem, Kelazhur, HeroMarine, Lambo, Mana WCS Valencia + Show Spoiler +Beats: Bly, Mana, Scarlett, Reynor, HeroMarine, Has WCS Montreal + Show Spoiler +Beats: Denver, Stephano, JonSnow, Scarlett, Lambo, Reynor GSL vs World + Show Spoiler +Kelazhur, Innovation, Dark, Stats Blizzcon: + Show Spoiler +Beats: sOs, Zest, Dark, Rogue, Stats WCS Jonkoping Final: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Mana, Scarlett, Stephano, PtitDrogo, Elazer
Loses to: Neeb WCS Winter Final: + Show Spoiler +Beats: SoulSpirit, Namshar, Rail, Harstem, Elazer, Lambo, PtitDrogo, Rail, ShowTime, HeroMarine
Loses to: HeroMarine, Reynor, Reynor WESG Final: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Masa, msrm, Harstem, Showtime, Mana, Dark, Scarlett
Loses to: Neeb, Innovation Across all of these tournaments, he's beaten (maybe) 7 top foreigners and 9 top Koreans. ClassicGSL: + Show Spoiler +Beats:Hydra, Hydra, Parting, soo, Paralyze, Maru, soo
Loses to: Life SSL: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Soulkey, Hyun, Byul, Stats, Dream
Loses to: Dream 2018 ST: + Show Spoiler +Beats: TY, Creator, Dark, sOs 2019 ST: + Show Spoiler +Beats: soo, Patience, sOs, Gumiho IEM: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Yonghwa, Rain, Losira, herO, Parting
Loses to: Snute 2015 Blizzcon SF: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Byul, herO
Loses to: Life 2014 Blizzcon SF: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Polt, herO
Loses to: MMA GSL Finals: + Show Spoiler +Beats: True, Trap, Trap, sOs, Rogue, Dark
Loses to: Maru IEM World Championship Finals: + Show Spoiler +Beats: sOs, Trap, Ryung, HeroMarine, Elazer, Dear, Serral
Loses to: Rogue Across all of these tournaments, he's beaten a top foreigner and 22 top Koreans. This just shouldn't be any kind of discussion: even the additional reaching comment of "Serral's streak" is mostly against players like Lambo, Namshar, or msrm. I fail to believe that Classic would not also have won against these guys if he had been playing in WCS rather than GSL. And during all that time was Classic ever considered "great"? Or just "good"? Because I don't remember Classic ever as someone who *really* stood out from the pack. There was always a Life, an Innovation, or one of the other Protoss players (Zest, Dear, sOs) who outright overshadowed him. He's only just now really coming into the spotlight. By merit of "being in Korea" for as long as he has (and being a very good player, don't get me wrong), he has beaten those protoss. Now lets look at the flip side of that coin. How many people beat Serral during all those achievements? 0/9 top Koreans beat Serral during his hot streak (9 top Koreans are simply your stats. I'm only pointing out that he *didn't* lose). Meanwhile, those same achievements for Classic ended with him losing to: Rogue, Maru, MMA, Life x2, Snute (lol), and Dream Yes, they were probably tougher tournaments, and he did very well. But ultimately, he lost most of those, whereas Serral *won*.
We are back to the old classic discussion of, if Serral wins WCS against Krr, Soul, Denver, Stephano, Masa, Nerchio, Special and Showtime (WCS Leipzig 2018). Is that a greater achivement than Classic (only being "good') and getting to the semifinals of GSL (season 2 2018) by beating Terror, True, Zest, Elazer, Byun, Dark, TY and Byun (again).
In my opinion three of the WCS victories Serral had 2018 can be considered equal to the semi finals appearance Classic had in one GSL.
The road of a GSL seminfinalist is many times harder than the road to a WCS circuit championship, I don't even understand how anyone can disagree. Olimoleague is harder than WCS, many times even.
The "premier" status or the amount of money won doesn't make the victory a great achivement if almost all of the greatest players aren't there.
Classic is a much greater player than Serral in my book, Classic is S tier protoss player, I would say the greatest protoss of all time.
Serral had great success, his two tournaments he won against korean oppositions is impressive and his streak as well. Especially his streak but he is clearly behind Classic in greatness, even if he isn't korean.
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On May 16 2019 20:12 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2019 19:42 Acrofales wrote:On May 16 2019 19:25 Yonnua wrote:Here's a breakdown of what Serral and Classic had to do to get their achievements: SerralWCS Leipzig: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Stephano, Namshar, Masa, Nerchio, Special, Showtime WCS Austin + Show Spoiler +Beats: TLO, Clem, Kelazhur, HeroMarine, Lambo, Mana WCS Valencia + Show Spoiler +Beats: Bly, Mana, Scarlett, Reynor, HeroMarine, Has WCS Montreal + Show Spoiler +Beats: Denver, Stephano, JonSnow, Scarlett, Lambo, Reynor GSL vs World + Show Spoiler +Kelazhur, Innovation, Dark, Stats Blizzcon: + Show Spoiler +Beats: sOs, Zest, Dark, Rogue, Stats WCS Jonkoping Final: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Mana, Scarlett, Stephano, PtitDrogo, Elazer
Loses to: Neeb WCS Winter Final: + Show Spoiler +Beats: SoulSpirit, Namshar, Rail, Harstem, Elazer, Lambo, PtitDrogo, Rail, ShowTime, HeroMarine
Loses to: HeroMarine, Reynor, Reynor WESG Final: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Masa, msrm, Harstem, Showtime, Mana, Dark, Scarlett
Loses to: Neeb, Innovation Across all of these tournaments, he's beaten (maybe) 7 top foreigners and 9 top Koreans. ClassicGSL: + Show Spoiler +Beats:Hydra, Hydra, Parting, soo, Paralyze, Maru, soo
Loses to: Life SSL: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Soulkey, Hyun, Byul, Stats, Dream
Loses to: Dream 2018 ST: + Show Spoiler +Beats: TY, Creator, Dark, sOs 2019 ST: + Show Spoiler +Beats: soo, Patience, sOs, Gumiho IEM: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Yonghwa, Rain, Losira, herO, Parting
Loses to: Snute 2015 Blizzcon SF: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Byul, herO
Loses to: Life 2014 Blizzcon SF: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Polt, herO
Loses to: MMA GSL Finals: + Show Spoiler +Beats: True, Trap, Trap, sOs, Rogue, Dark
Loses to: Maru IEM World Championship Finals: + Show Spoiler +Beats: sOs, Trap, Ryung, HeroMarine, Elazer, Dear, Serral
Loses to: Rogue Across all of these tournaments, he's beaten a top foreigner and 22 top Koreans. This just shouldn't be any kind of discussion: even the additional reaching comment of "Serral's streak" is mostly against players like Lambo, Namshar, or msrm. I fail to believe that Classic would not also have won against these guys if he had been playing in WCS rather than GSL. And during all that time was Classic ever considered "great"? Or just "good"? Because I don't remember Classic ever as someone who *really* stood out from the pack. There was always a Life, an Innovation, or one of the other Protoss players (Zest, Dear, sOs) who outright overshadowed him. He's only just now really coming into the spotlight. By merit of "being in Korea" for as long as he has (and being a very good player, don't get me wrong), he has beaten those protoss. Now lets look at the flip side of that coin. How many people beat Serral during all those achievements? 0/9 top Koreans beat Serral during his hot streak (9 top Koreans are simply your stats. I'm only pointing out that he *didn't* lose). Meanwhile, those same achievements for Classic ended with him losing to: Rogue, Maru, MMA, Life x2, Snute (lol), and Dream Yes, they were probably tougher tournaments, and he did very well. But ultimately, he lost most of those, whereas Serral *won*. We are back to the old classic discussion of, if Serral wins WCS against Krr, Soul, Denver, Stephano, Masa, Nerchio, Special and Showtime (WCS Leipzig 2018). Is that a greater achivement than Classic (only being "good') and getting to the semifinals of GSL (season 2 2018) by beating Terror, True, Zest, Elazer, Byun, Dark, TY and Byun (again). In my opinion three of the WCS victories Serral had 2018 can be considered equal to the semi finals appearance Classic had in one GSL. The road of a GSL seminfinalist is many times harder than the road to a WCS circuit championship, I don't even understand how anyone can disagree. Olimoleague is harder than WCS, many times even. The "premier" status or the amount of money won doesn't make the victory a great achivement if almost all of the greatest players aren't there. Classic is a much greater player than Serral in my book, Classic is S tier protoss player, I would say the greatest protoss of all time. Serral had great success, his two tournaments he won against korean oppositions is impressive and his streak as well. Especially his streak but he is clearly behind Classic in greatness, even if he isn't korean.
Three WCS=one Code S semifinal?
Let's say goodbye to any possible constructive discussion...
There is consistency in this way of thinking but at best it is a legacy of a past when any korean in the top 50 could win a tournament against the best foreigners.
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On May 16 2019 20:12 Shuffleblade wrote:
We are back to the old classic discussion of, if Serral wins WCS against Krr, Soul, Denver, Stephano, Masa, Nerchio, Special and Showtime (WCS Leipzig 2018). Is that a greater achivement than Classic (only being "good') and getting to the semifinals of GSL (season 2 2018) by beating Terror, True, Zest, Elazer, Byun, Dark, TY and Byun (again).
In my opinion three of the WCS victories Serral had 2018 can be considered equal to the semi finals appearance Classic had in one GSL.
The road of a GSL seminfinalist is many times harder than the road to a WCS circuit championship, I don't even understand how anyone can disagree. Olimoleague is harder than WCS, many times even.
The "premier" status or the amount of money won doesn't make the victory a great achivement if almost all of the greatest players aren't there.
Classic is a much greater player than Serral in my book, Classic is S tier protoss player, I would say the greatest protoss of all time.
Serral had great success, his two tournaments he won against korean oppositions is impressive and his streak as well. Especially his streak but he is clearly behind Classic in greatness, even if he isn't korean.
I disgree on pretty much all points and your choice of words is ridiculous. No offense, but you have to see yourself how biased you are and how exaggerated some of this is.
I have to respond in detail later cause I'm at work and things like aligulac are blocked here.
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You could split Classic's achievements in half and he'd still be way ahead of Serral.
The fact that people here are even arguing in favor of Serral jusr shows how ridicolously deluded his fanboys are.
Let's be honest - his main achievement is "being a foreigner". Without that the poll would be as one-sided as the Leenock - INnoVation poll.
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Canada8989 Posts
On May 16 2019 17:54 Xain0n wrote:
Nice writeup, even if I would have highlighted the fact Serral started playing full time in 2017
I could have yes, but while we are on the subject I'm fairly sure Leenock was part time in 2012 when he won his tournaments! (At least if the liquipedia page is to be beleived)
And on the topic of fun facts, Leenock "retired" after the second Super Tournament 2017 then "un-retired" in time for the first GSL of 2018, which has to be the most SC2 thing to do.
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On May 16 2019 20:27 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2019 20:12 Shuffleblade wrote:
We are back to the old classic discussion of, if Serral wins WCS against Krr, Soul, Denver, Stephano, Masa, Nerchio, Special and Showtime (WCS Leipzig 2018). Is that a greater achivement than Classic (only being "good') and getting to the semifinals of GSL (season 2 2018) by beating Terror, True, Zest, Elazer, Byun, Dark, TY and Byun (again).
In my opinion three of the WCS victories Serral had 2018 can be considered equal to the semi finals appearance Classic had in one GSL.
The road of a GSL seminfinalist is many times harder than the road to a WCS circuit championship, I don't even understand how anyone can disagree. Olimoleague is harder than WCS, many times even.
The "premier" status or the amount of money won doesn't make the victory a great achivement if almost all of the greatest players aren't there.
Classic is a much greater player than Serral in my book, Classic is S tier protoss player, I would say the greatest protoss of all time.
Serral had great success, his two tournaments he won against korean oppositions is impressive and his streak as well. Especially his streak but he is clearly behind Classic in greatness, even if he isn't korean. I disgree on pretty much all points and your choice of words is ridiculous. No offense, but you have to see yourself how biased you are and how exaggerated some of this is. I have to respond in detail later cause I'm at work and things like aligulac are blocked here.
I'm biased in the way that I think beating the best players is more impressive than beating "good" players. To be clear I don't mean good as in Classic good, I mean good as in Lambo good.
Obviously we are of different opinions, I will try to explain myself better.
Being top 4 among Stats, Dear, Dokyung, eMotion, Patience, sOs, Trap, Zest, Maru, aLive, Bunny, ByuN, Cure, GuMiho, INnoVation, Keen, Ryung, TY, Dark, soO, ByuL, Elazer, Impact, Leenock, Losira, Rogue, Scarlett, Solar, SortOf, True, Zanster, Hurricane, herO, Billowy, jjakji, Forte, PuCK, Kelazhur, Maka, SuperNova, TOP, Cell, Gamja, Rex, Dandy, JYP, Has, PartinG, Trust, MMA, NaTuRaL, Speciual, Impact, Lambo, Leenock, NoRegreT, Ragnarok, Revival and TerrOr.
Is in my opinion not comparable to being the champion among Neeb, Nice, Probe, Kelazhur, MaSa, Special, TIME, uThermal, XY, Elazer, GogojOey, Nerchio, Scarlett, Serral, TRUE, Yours, Cyan, DnS, Gerald, Harstem, JackO, Mana, NightEnD, PtitDrogo, Rail, ShoWTimE, SpeaceMarine, Arctur, BlueCheese, DemusliM, HeRoMaRinE, Kas, Lillekanon, Optimus, souL, Ziggy, Bly, Cham, Guru, HateMe, hinO, JonSnow, Lambo, Namshar, RiSky, Snute, SortOf, Stephano, TLO and Zanster.
The seminfinals is simply more impressive result wise, I don't understand why so many seems to think that foreigners in general are as good as koreans just because one foreigner were the best in the world for a solid period. That doesn't mean all the other foreigners are as good. Besides Serral there are a few foreigners that could be considered among the best in the world, I would say Neeb and Special, the rest is simply still behind.
Its like comparing taking fourth place in division 1 compared to winning division 2, there is simply too big of a skill disparity among the competition. If we look at the results from this years Katawice for example, you look at the results and the qualifiers its clear koreans are crushing foreigners still.
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Northern Ireland25460 Posts
Just going to list Koreans for these
GSL vs the World
Innovation 3-0
Dark 3-1
Stats 4-3
WCS Global Finals
sOs 2-0
Zest 2-0
Dark 3-0
Rogue 3-1
Stats 4-2
IEM Katowice
Rogue 2-0
Solar 2-1
Ragnarok 2-1
Gumiho 2-1
Innovation 1-2 (Dead rubber)
soO 3-2 (Tournament champion)
WESG
Dark 3-1
Innovation 3-4 (Grand finals)
It’s not a huge amount of games, it’s still an impressive sample of games though. It’s a rather damn solid set of players when if I’m being harsh maybe Ragnarok is the weakest.
Add to that his WCS domination that nobody has managed to do before, even Neeb/Scarlett aren’t this dominant over the even weaker split off WCS NA. Or the first Koreans to go to WCS America when that was a thing, or a fulltime Idra in the early MLG circuits.
I think people underrate it a good bit, it’s not GSL but there are lots of really bloody good players there. Outside of Serral the quartet of players in Scarlett, Special, Neeb and Scarlett who have gone to Korea for periods, and at least made it out of the Ro16, do not consistently all sail through to the Ro4 and only get knocked out by each other or Serral in WCS. I think Elazer did ok in GSL at one point too? Although that was during my SC hiatus and I haven’t got back that far in my retrospective VoD viewing.
It’s not how it used to be, when legitimately the top 50 players in the world would be 45+ Koreans, and winning a series against a Korean player, even a C tier one was a big deal.
I was going to actually flip a coin on this one, I love me Classic and his body of work is great, and I’m rooting for him in his last year before military, but I voted Serral to counterbalance opinions like 4 WCS titles = one GSL semifinal.
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On May 16 2019 21:23 Charoisaur wrote:
You could split Classic's achievements in half and he'd still be way ahead of Serral.
The fact that people here are even arguing in favor of Serral jusr shows how ridicolously deluded his fanboys are.
Let's be honest - his main achievement is "being a foreigner". Without that the poll would be as one-sided as the Leenock - INnoVation poll.
The good old dilemma: are Serral fanboys deluded or korean elitists embarassingly biased?
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On May 16 2019 21:45 Wombat_NI wrote:
Just going to list Koreans for these
GSL vs the World
Innovation 3-0
Dark 3-1
Stats 4-3
WCS Global Finals
sOs 2-0
Zest 2-0
Dark 3-0
Rogue 3-1
Stats 4-2
IEM Katowice
Rogue 2-0
Solar 2-1
Ragnarok 2-1
Gumiho 2-1
Innovation 1-2 (Dead rubber)
soO 3-2 (Tournament champion)
WESG
Dark 3-1
Innovation 3-4 (Grand finals)
It’s not a huge amount of games, it’s still an impressive sample of games though. It’s a rather damn solid set of players when if I’m being harsh maybe Ragnarok is the weakest.
Add to that his WCS domination that nobody has managed to do before, even Neeb/Scarlett aren’t this dominant over the even weaker split off WCS NA. Or the first Koreans to go to WCS America when that was a thing, or a fulltime Idra in the early MLG circuits.
I think people underrate it a good bit, it’s not GSL but there are lots of really bloody good players there. Outside of Serral the quartet of players in Scarlett, Special, Neeb and Scarlett who have gone to Korea for periods, and at least made it out of the Ro16, do not consistently all sail through to the Ro4 and only get knocked out by each other or Serral in WCS. I think Elazer did ok in GSL at one point too? Although that was during my SC hiatus and I haven’t got back that far in my retrospective VoD viewing.
It’s not how it used to be, when legitimately the top 50 players in the world would be 45+ Koreans, and winning a series against a Korean player, even a C tier one was a big deal.
I was going to actually flip a coin on this one, I love me Classic and his body of work is great, and I’m rooting for him in his last year before military, but I voted Serral to counterbalance opinions like 4 WCS titles = one GSL semifinal.
Maybe compare that to the list of Classic's achievements above though, because he's beaten the same quality of players more times than Serral has. Stop comparing Serral to Neeb and Scarlett and compare him to the player he's up against, because if Classic goes out because he isn't as good at not being Korean as Serral is, then that's just ridiculous.
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Northern Ireland25460 Posts
On May 16 2019 21:40 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2019 20:27 Harris1st wrote:On May 16 2019 20:12 Shuffleblade wrote:
We are back to the old classic discussion of, if Serral wins WCS against Krr, Soul, Denver, Stephano, Masa, Nerchio, Special and Showtime (WCS Leipzig 2018). Is that a greater achivement than Classic (only being "good') and getting to the semifinals of GSL (season 2 2018) by beating Terror, True, Zest, Elazer, Byun, Dark, TY and Byun (again).
In my opinion three of the WCS victories Serral had 2018 can be considered equal to the semi finals appearance Classic had in one GSL.
The road of a GSL seminfinalist is many times harder than the road to a WCS circuit championship, I don't even understand how anyone can disagree. Olimoleague is harder than WCS, many times even.
The "premier" status or the amount of money won doesn't make the victory a great achivement if almost all of the greatest players aren't there.
Classic is a much greater player than Serral in my book, Classic is S tier protoss player, I would say the greatest protoss of all time.
Serral had great success, his two tournaments he won against korean oppositions is impressive and his streak as well. Especially his streak but he is clearly behind Classic in greatness, even if he isn't korean. I disgree on pretty much all points and your choice of words is ridiculous. No offense, but you have to see yourself how biased you are and how exaggerated some of this is. I have to respond in detail later cause I'm at work and things like aligulac are blocked here. I'm biased in the way that I think beating the best players is more impressive than beating "good" players. To be clear I don't mean good as in Classic good, I mean good as in Lambo good. Obviously we are of different opinions, I will try to explain myself better. Being top 4 among Stats, Dear, Dokyung, eMotion, Patience, sOs, Trap, Zest, Maru, aLive, Bunny, ByuN, Cure, GuMiho, INnoVation, Keen, Ryung, TY, Dark, soO, ByuL, Elazer, Impact, Leenock, Losira, Rogue, Scarlett, Solar, SortOf, True, Zanster, Hurricane, herO, Billowy, jjakji, Forte, PuCK, Kelazhur, Maka, SuperNova, TOP, Cell, Gamja, Rex, Dandy, JYP, Has, PartinG, Trust, MMA, NaTuRaL, Speciual, Impact, Lambo, Leenock, NoRegreT, Ragnarok, Revival and TerrOr. Is in my opinion not comparable to being the champion among Neeb, Nice, Probe, Kelazhur, MaSa, Special, TIME, uThermal, XY, Elazer, GogojOey, Nerchio, Scarlett, Serral, TRUE, Yours, Cyan, DnS, Gerald, Harstem, JackO, Mana, NightEnD, PtitDrogo, Rail, ShoWTimE, SpeaceMarine, Arctur, BlueCheese, DemusliM, HeRoMaRinE, Kas, Lillekanon, Optimus, souL, Ziggy, Bly, Cham, Guru, HateMe, hinO, JonSnow, Lambo, Namshar, RiSky, Snute, SortOf, Stephano, TLO and Zanster. The seminfinals is simply more impressive result wise, I don't understand why so many seems to think that foreigners in general are as good as koreans just because one foreigner were the best in the world for a solid period. That doesn't mean all the other foreigners are as good. Besides Serral there are a few foreigners that could be considered among the best in the world, I would say Neeb and Special, the rest is simply still behind. Its like comparing taking fourth place in division 1 compared to winning division 2, there is simply too big of a skill disparity among the competition. If we look at the results from this years Katawice for example, you look at the results and the qualifiers its clear koreans are crushing foreigners still.
Well, the best Koreans are beating foreigners pretty handily at qualifiers, I don’t think many would dispute that
Special hasn’t really done all that much to earn his reputation results wise, he’s very good and his games in the Ro32 were excellent but he’s a case in point of how Korea is put on a pedestal. He’s been there for absolutely ages and at no point has returned to the foreign scene and crushed it.
Neeb and especially Serral have made deep runs or won tournaments with the very best.
Form fluctuates a lot and it’s rare everyone is in shape at the same time of course, the foreign scene has a few folks capable of deep runs, a perennial tournament contender with Serral and a bunch of pretty good players on the tier slightly below that.
Korea has shed depth so its tiers are slightly different. Most recent seasons the Ro32 has a few whipping boys get in, of late it’s often more returning legends who aren’t back in shape rather than up and comers. Then it’s your Ro16ers, where they might have an exceptional run but generally that’s their consistent limit. Then there’s actually quite a lot of players who are the tier up, and could conceivably win or at least make Ro4 any given seasons, and there’s a lot of them.
I’d argue the GSL is half split between ‘could win the tournament’ and the other half are the relative whipping boys and ‘solid Code S staples’
The better foreigners are definitely better than the lowest run of GSL, and probably better than the Code S staples, are good enough to beat a top player once in a while, but extremely unfavoured to beat a bunch of top Koreans back-to-back
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Northern Ireland25460 Posts
On May 16 2019 21:49 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2019 21:23 Charoisaur wrote:
You could split Classic's achievements in half and he'd still be way ahead of Serral.
The fact that people here are even arguing in favor of Serral jusr shows how ridicolously deluded his fanboys are.
Let's be honest - his main achievement is "being a foreigner". Without that the poll would be as one-sided as the Leenock - INnoVation poll. The good old dilemma: are Serral fanboys deluded or korean elitists embarassingly biased?
Why not both?
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On May 16 2019 21:49 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2019 21:23 Charoisaur wrote:
You could split Classic's achievements in half and he'd still be way ahead of Serral.
The fact that people here are even arguing in favor of Serral jusr shows how ridicolously deluded his fanboys are.
Let's be honest - his main achievement is "being a foreigner". Without that the poll would be as one-sided as the Leenock - INnoVation poll. The good old dilemma: are Serral fanboys deluded or korean elitists embarassingly biased?
If you try to argue that serral is already a top 10 contender with the results he has at this point? Yeah I'll go with the former.
That only makes sense if you think that WCS is incredibly close to tournaments where top koreans can compete, which is ridiculous. No WCS isn't worthless either, one should try to weigh it reasonably though.
By far most of serral's success comes from WCS tournaments.
If we only look at tournaments with korean competition (i hope one doesn't have to explain why that takes priority? It was done over and over again) we get these results:
Ro8: Katowice 2017, IEM PyeongChang, Katowice 2019
ro4: Katowice 2018, 3rd WESG 2017
2nd: WESG 2018
1st: GSL vs the world 2018, blizzcon 2018
Which is a nice résumé, but let's look at classic now.
ro8: IEM cologne 2014,IEM taipei 2015, Kespa cup s2 2015, gsl s3 2015, ssl s1 2016, gsl st2 2017, gsl s1 2018, gsl vs the world 2018
ro4: kespa cup 2014, blizzcon 2014, blizzcon 2015, ssl s2 2016, WESG 2017 4th, gsl s2 2017, ssl s2 2017 3rd, gsl st1 2018, gsl s2 2018
2nd: Katowice 2018, gsl s1 2019
1st: gsl s2 2014, ssl s2 2015, iem Shenzhen 2015, gsl st2 2018, gsl st1 2019
The difference is huge, now if you want to make a case that the wcs results serral got can make up the difference, go for it.
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Northern Ireland25460 Posts
On May 16 2019 21:49 Yonnua wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2019 21:45 Wombat_NI wrote:
Just going to list Koreans for these
GSL vs the World
Innovation 3-0
Dark 3-1
Stats 4-3
WCS Global Finals
sOs 2-0
Zest 2-0
Dark 3-0
Rogue 3-1
Stats 4-2
IEM Katowice
Rogue 2-0
Solar 2-1
Ragnarok 2-1
Gumiho 2-1
Innovation 1-2 (Dead rubber)
soO 3-2 (Tournament champion)
WESG
Dark 3-1
Innovation 3-4 (Grand finals)
It’s not a huge amount of games, it’s still an impressive sample of games though. It’s a rather damn solid set of players when if I’m being harsh maybe Ragnarok is the weakest.
Add to that his WCS domination that nobody has managed to do before, even Neeb/Scarlett aren’t this dominant over the even weaker split off WCS NA. Or the first Koreans to go to WCS America when that was a thing, or a fulltime Idra in the early MLG circuits.
I think people underrate it a good bit, it’s not GSL but there are lots of really bloody good players there. Outside of Serral the quartet of players in Scarlett, Special, Neeb and Scarlett who have gone to Korea for periods, and at least made it out of the Ro16, do not consistently all sail through to the Ro4 and only get knocked out by each other or Serral in WCS. I think Elazer did ok in GSL at one point too? Although that was during my SC hiatus and I haven’t got back that far in my retrospective VoD viewing.
It’s not how it used to be, when legitimately the top 50 players in the world would be 45+ Koreans, and winning a series against a Korean player, even a C tier one was a big deal.
I was going to actually flip a coin on this one, I love me Classic and his body of work is great, and I’m rooting for him in his last year before military, but I voted Serral to counterbalance opinions like 4 WCS titles = one GSL semifinal. Maybe compare that to the list of Classic's achievements above though, because he's beaten the same quality of players more times than Serral has. Stop comparing Serral to Neeb and Scarlett and compare him to the player he's up against, because if Classic goes out because he isn't as good at not being Korean as Serral is, then that's just ridiculous.
I think Serral’s peak level of play is better, not by much necessarily. I was more impressed by how well he won on his streak rather than that he won.
I said earlier in the thread I do factor in longevity, but if people’s peaks are also a factor for me, and Classic is near the end of his career pre-military at least, Serral is no newcomer but he’s not that long into hitting his final form.
I can more easily compare say, Inno and Classic because they are contemporaries and competed in the same scene as each other at the same time.
It feels unfair to Serral to weight it on longevity in the scene vs a veteran pro-gamer, equally it feels unfair to Classic to discount his consistent period of great performances.
So I think I have to go off peak, both in terms of actual gameplay but also where would you rank highest in the scene at your best point.
I think Serral has a legitimate shout to have been the outright best player in the world when he won Blizzcon, not 100% by consensus but, plausibly. In the other matchup Innovation has had periods where he’s held that unofficial title.
I don’t think Classic ever really has hit that level, regardless of what he’s won so I’ll say Serral shades this matchup for me.
I love my sports analogies so I’ll say Classics is maybe the Andy Murray of Starcraft. A perennial winner and deep runs in tournaments, but even when he officially held the rank he was never really who the pundits considered the best player in the world at any given time. I’ll have to figure out what tennis player Serral is now QQ
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On May 16 2019 19:38 Yonnua wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2019 19:36 Xain0n wrote:On May 16 2019 19:25 Yonnua wrote:Here's a breakdown of what Serral and Classic had to do to get their achievements: SerralWCS Leipzig: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Stephano, Namshar, Masa, Nerchio, Special, Showtime WCS Austin + Show Spoiler +Beats: TLO, Clem, Kelazhur, HeroMarine, Lambo, Mana WCS Valencia + Show Spoiler +Beats: Bly, Mana, Scarlett, Reynor, HeroMarine, Has WCS Montreal + Show Spoiler +Beats: Denver, Stephano, JonSnow, Scarlett, Lambo, Reynor GSL vs World + Show Spoiler +Kelazhur, Innovation, Dark, Stats Blizzcon: + Show Spoiler +Beats: sOs, Zest, Dark, Rogue, Stats WCS Jonkoping Final: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Mana, Scarlett, Stephano, PtitDrogo, Elazer
Loses to: Neeb WCS Winter Final: + Show Spoiler +Beats: SoulSpirit, Namshar, Rail, Harstem, Elazer, Lambo, PtitDrogo, Rail, ShowTime, HeroMarine
Loses to: HeroMarine, Reynor, Reynor WESG Final: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Masa, msrm, Harstem, Showtime, Mana, Dark, Scarlett
Loses to: Neeb, Innovation Across all of these tournaments, he's beaten (maybe) 7 top foreigners and 9 top Koreans. ClassicGSL: + Show Spoiler +Beats:Hydra, Hydra, Parting, soo, Paralyze, Maru, soo
Loses to: Life SSL: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Soulkey, Hyun, Byul, Stats, Dream
Loses to: Dream 2018 ST: + Show Spoiler +Beats: TY, Creator, Dark, sOs 2019 ST: + Show Spoiler +Beats: soo, Patience, sOs, Gumiho IEM: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Yonghwa, Rain, Losira, herO, Parting
Loses to: Snute 2015 Blizzcon SF: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Byul, herO
Loses to: Life 2014 Blizzcon SF: + Show Spoiler +Beats: Polt, herO
Loses to: MMA GSL Finals: + Show Spoiler +Beats: True, Trap, Trap, sOs, Rogue, Dark
Loses to: Maru IEM World Championship Finals: + Show Spoiler +Beats: sOs, Trap, Ryung, HeroMarine, Elazer, Dear, Serral
Loses to: Rogue Across all of these tournaments, he's beaten a top foreigner and 22 top Koreans. This just shouldn't be any kind of discussion: even the additional reaching comment of "Serral's streak" is mostly against players like Lambo, Namshar, or msrm. I fail to believe that Classic would not also have won against these guys if he had been playing in WCS rather than GSL. For your information, Serral's streak is also(but not limited to) the best streak ever recorded against koreans, most of those being top ones(no Paralyze and the likes). Isn't it kind of pointless to underline that a korean player playing in Korea had to play against more koreans? Are we speaking of the same Classic losing 2-0 against Special at BlizzCon 2018? I think it's unlikely Classic would have won four consecutive WCS last year and definitely he couldn't have achieved Serral's streak. So for clarity, which or Lambo and Namshar do you think would have knocked Classic out of WCS?
I love Classic, but this is actually hilarious seeing as he got knocked out of GSL by a foreign Zerg before.
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On May 16 2019 22:31 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2019 21:49 Yonnua wrote:On May 16 2019 21:45 Wombat_NI wrote:
Just going to list Koreans for these
GSL vs the World
Innovation 3-0
Dark 3-1
Stats 4-3
WCS Global Finals
sOs 2-0
Zest 2-0
Dark 3-0
Rogue 3-1
Stats 4-2
IEM Katowice
Rogue 2-0
Solar 2-1
Ragnarok 2-1
Gumiho 2-1
Innovation 1-2 (Dead rubber)
soO 3-2 (Tournament champion)
WESG
Dark 3-1
Innovation 3-4 (Grand finals)
It’s not a huge amount of games, it’s still an impressive sample of games though. It’s a rather damn solid set of players when if I’m being harsh maybe Ragnarok is the weakest.
Add to that his WCS domination that nobody has managed to do before, even Neeb/Scarlett aren’t this dominant over the even weaker split off WCS NA. Or the first Koreans to go to WCS America when that was a thing, or a fulltime Idra in the early MLG circuits.
I think people underrate it a good bit, it’s not GSL but there are lots of really bloody good players there. Outside of Serral the quartet of players in Scarlett, Special, Neeb and Scarlett who have gone to Korea for periods, and at least made it out of the Ro16, do not consistently all sail through to the Ro4 and only get knocked out by each other or Serral in WCS. I think Elazer did ok in GSL at one point too? Although that was during my SC hiatus and I haven’t got back that far in my retrospective VoD viewing.
It’s not how it used to be, when legitimately the top 50 players in the world would be 45+ Koreans, and winning a series against a Korean player, even a C tier one was a big deal.
I was going to actually flip a coin on this one, I love me Classic and his body of work is great, and I’m rooting for him in his last year before military, but I voted Serral to counterbalance opinions like 4 WCS titles = one GSL semifinal. Maybe compare that to the list of Classic's achievements above though, because he's beaten the same quality of players more times than Serral has. Stop comparing Serral to Neeb and Scarlett and compare him to the player he's up against, because if Classic goes out because he isn't as good at not being Korean as Serral is, then that's just ridiculous. I think Serral’s peak level of play is better, not by much necessarily. I was more impressed by how well he won on his streak rather than that he won. I said earlier in the thread I do factor in longevity, but if people’s peaks are also a factor for me, and Classic is near the end of his career pre-military at least, Serral is no newcomer but he’s not that long into hitting his final form. I can more easily compare say, Inno and Classic because they are contemporaries and competed in the same scene as each other at the same time. It feels unfair to Serral to weight it on longevity in the scene vs a veteran pro-gamer, equally it feels unfair to Classic to discount his consistent period of great performances. So I think I have to go off peak, both in terms of actual gameplay but also where would you rank highest in the scene at your best point. I think Serral has a legitimate shout to have been the outright best player in the world when he won Blizzcon, not 100% by consensus but, plausibly. In the other matchup Innovation has had periods where he’s held that unofficial title. I don’t think Classic ever really has hit that level, regardless of what he’s won so I’ll say Serral shades this matchup for me. I love my sports analogies so I’ll say Classics is maybe the Andy Murray of Starcraft. A perennial winner and deep runs in tournaments, but even when he officially held the rank he was never really who the pundits considered the best player in the world at any given time. I’ll have to figure out what tennis player Serral is now QQ
He's like Grigor Dimitrov, who won the ATP Pro Tour finals, but has never won in a grand slam. Serral doesn't compete in Grand Slams, he just wins ATP tour events. Nobody would ever consider a tennis player with just ATP wins to be the greatest of all time.
Even if a player won dozens of ATPs in straight sets, we recognise that what matters is competing in Grand Slams, because that's where the competition is.
Edit: or Lleyton Hewitt if he never won his GSs.
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EPT
