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Northern Ireland23745 Posts
On May 16 2019 22:17 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2019 21:49 Xain0n wrote:On May 16 2019 21:23 Charoisaur wrote:
You could split Classic's achievements in half and he'd still be way ahead of Serral.
The fact that people here are even arguing in favor of Serral jusr shows how ridicolously deluded his fanboys are.
Let's be honest - his main achievement is "being a foreigner". Without that the poll would be as one-sided as the Leenock - INnoVation poll. The good old dilemma: are Serral fanboys deluded or korean elitists embarassingly biased? If you try to argue that serral is already a top 10 contender with the results he has at this point? Yeah I'll go with the former. That only makes sense if you think that WCS is incredibly close to tournaments where top koreans can compete, which is ridiculous. No WCS isn't worthless either, one should try to weigh it reasonably though. By far most of serral's success comes from WCS tournaments. If we only look at tournaments with korean competition (i hope one doesn't have to explain why that takes priority? It was done over and over again) we get these results: Ro8: Katowice 2017, IEM PyeongChang, Katowice 2019 ro4: Katowice 2018, 3rd WESG 2017 2nd: WESG 2018 1st: GSL vs the world 2018, blizzcon 2018 Which is a nice résumé, but let's look at classic now. ro8: IEM cologne 2014,IEM taipei 2015, Kespa cup s2 2015, gsl s3 2015, ssl s1 2016, gsl st2 2017, gsl s1 2018, gsl vs the world 2018 ro4: kespa cup 2014, blizzcon 2014, blizzcon 2015, ssl s2 2016, WESG 2017 4th, gsl s2 2017, ssl s2 2017 3rd, gsl st1 2018, gsl s2 2018 2nd: Katowice 2018, gsl s1 2019 1st: gsl s2 2014, ssl s2 2015, iem Shenzhen 2015, gsl st2 2018, gsl st1 2019 The difference is huge, now if you want to make a case that the wcs results serral got can make up the difference, go for it.
On May 16 2019 22:17 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2019 21:49 Xain0n wrote:On May 16 2019 21:23 Charoisaur wrote:
You could split Classic's achievements in half and he'd still be way ahead of Serral.
The fact that people here are even arguing in favor of Serral jusr shows how ridicolously deluded his fanboys are.
Let's be honest - his main achievement is "being a foreigner". Without that the poll would be as one-sided as the Leenock - INnoVation poll. The good old dilemma: are Serral fanboys deluded or korean elitists embarassingly biased? If you try to argue that serral is already a top 10 contender with the results he has at this point? Yeah I'll go with the former. That only makes sense if you think that WCS is incredibly close to tournaments where top koreans can compete, which is ridiculous. No WCS isn't worthless either, one should try to weigh it reasonably though. By far most of serral's success comes from WCS tournaments. If we only look at tournaments with korean competition (i hope one doesn't have to explain why that takes priority? It was done over and over again) we get these results: Ro8: Katowice 2017, IEM PyeongChang, Katowice 2019 ro4: Katowice 2018, 3rd WESG 2017 2nd: WESG 2018 1st: GSL vs the world 2018, blizzcon 2018 Which is a nice résumé, but let's look at classic now. ro8: IEM cologne 2014,IEM taipei 2015, Kespa cup s2 2015, gsl s3 2015, ssl s1 2016, gsl st2 2017, gsl s1 2018, gsl vs the world 2018 ro4: kespa cup 2014, blizzcon 2014, blizzcon 2015, ssl s2 2016, WESG 2017 4th, gsl s2 2017, ssl s2 2017 3rd, gsl st1 2018, gsl s2 2018 2nd: Katowice 2018, gsl s1 2019 1st: gsl s2 2014, ssl s2 2015, iem Shenzhen 2015, gsl st2 2018, gsl st1 2019 The difference is huge, now if you want to make a case that the wcs results serral got can make up the difference, go for it.
The difference is also 3 years, which is kind of a big deal, and hard to catch up on, or directly compare anyway.
Just less tournaments all round makes it harder to judge players, we don’t have the additional SSL anymore, or more international tournaments, or Proleague either. Annoying as a fan of the game but also annoying for discussing legacies haha
I think the weighing is that it was 4 in a row and also came in a streak of another two tournaments including the biggest singular one there is.
Despite the crushing heartbreak I imagine it gave the guy I’d still rate soO’s Kong streak as more impressive than folks who got singular GSLs and fell off.
It’s his peak form and peak achievements that I rate Serral more on, but his consistency the tier beneath that is also pretty crazy.
In every GSL season there is usually a top tier player or two who goes out in the Ro32, and almost always this necessitates losing to a player who isn’t on your level in at least one of your matches.
In other eSports never mind ye olde regular sports this is less commonplace, it’s only really impressive to me in something like SC2 to be that consistent at a lower level.
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Northern Ireland23745 Posts
On May 16 2019 22:46 Yonnua wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2019 22:31 Wombat_NI wrote:On May 16 2019 21:49 Yonnua wrote:On May 16 2019 21:45 Wombat_NI wrote:
Just going to list Koreans for these
GSL vs the World
Innovation 3-0
Dark 3-1
Stats 4-3
WCS Global Finals
sOs 2-0
Zest 2-0
Dark 3-0
Rogue 3-1
Stats 4-2
IEM Katowice
Rogue 2-0
Solar 2-1
Ragnarok 2-1
Gumiho 2-1
Innovation 1-2 (Dead rubber)
soO 3-2 (Tournament champion)
WESG
Dark 3-1
Innovation 3-4 (Grand finals)
It’s not a huge amount of games, it’s still an impressive sample of games though. It’s a rather damn solid set of players when if I’m being harsh maybe Ragnarok is the weakest.
Add to that his WCS domination that nobody has managed to do before, even Neeb/Scarlett aren’t this dominant over the even weaker split off WCS NA. Or the first Koreans to go to WCS America when that was a thing, or a fulltime Idra in the early MLG circuits.
I think people underrate it a good bit, it’s not GSL but there are lots of really bloody good players there. Outside of Serral the quartet of players in Scarlett, Special, Neeb and Scarlett who have gone to Korea for periods, and at least made it out of the Ro16, do not consistently all sail through to the Ro4 and only get knocked out by each other or Serral in WCS. I think Elazer did ok in GSL at one point too? Although that was during my SC hiatus and I haven’t got back that far in my retrospective VoD viewing.
It’s not how it used to be, when legitimately the top 50 players in the world would be 45+ Koreans, and winning a series against a Korean player, even a C tier one was a big deal.
I was going to actually flip a coin on this one, I love me Classic and his body of work is great, and I’m rooting for him in his last year before military, but I voted Serral to counterbalance opinions like 4 WCS titles = one GSL semifinal. Maybe compare that to the list of Classic's achievements above though, because he's beaten the same quality of players more times than Serral has. Stop comparing Serral to Neeb and Scarlett and compare him to the player he's up against, because if Classic goes out because he isn't as good at not being Korean as Serral is, then that's just ridiculous. I think Serral’s peak level of play is better, not by much necessarily. I was more impressed by how well he won on his streak rather than that he won. I said earlier in the thread I do factor in longevity, but if people’s peaks are also a factor for me, and Classic is near the end of his career pre-military at least, Serral is no newcomer but he’s not that long into hitting his final form. I can more easily compare say, Inno and Classic because they are contemporaries and competed in the same scene as each other at the same time. It feels unfair to Serral to weight it on longevity in the scene vs a veteran pro-gamer, equally it feels unfair to Classic to discount his consistent period of great performances. So I think I have to go off peak, both in terms of actual gameplay but also where would you rank highest in the scene at your best point. I think Serral has a legitimate shout to have been the outright best player in the world when he won Blizzcon, not 100% by consensus but, plausibly. In the other matchup Innovation has had periods where he’s held that unofficial title. I don’t think Classic ever really has hit that level, regardless of what he’s won so I’ll say Serral shades this matchup for me. I love my sports analogies so I’ll say Classics is maybe the Andy Murray of Starcraft. A perennial winner and deep runs in tournaments, but even when he officially held the rank he was never really who the pundits considered the best player in the world at any given time. I’ll have to figure out what tennis player Serral is now QQ He's like Grigor Dimitrov, who won the ATP Pro Tour finals, but has never won in a grand slam. Serral doesn't compete in Grand Slams, he just wins ATP tour events. Nobody would ever consider a tennis player with just ATP wins to be the greatest of all time. Even if a player won dozens of ATPs in straight sets, we recognise that what matters is competing in Grand Slams, because that's where the competition is. Edit: or Lleyton Hewitt if he never won his GSs.
Blizzcon is THE Grand Slam though? Or maybe an Olympic title
It’s not as if Koreans don’t take it seriously given they all talk about wanting to qualify for it, and then when they qualify talk about wanting to win it.
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On May 16 2019 22:07 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2019 21:49 Xain0n wrote:On May 16 2019 21:23 Charoisaur wrote:
You could split Classic's achievements in half and he'd still be way ahead of Serral.
The fact that people here are even arguing in favor of Serral jusr shows how ridicolously deluded his fanboys are.
Let's be honest - his main achievement is "being a foreigner". Without that the poll would be as one-sided as the Leenock - INnoVation poll. The good old dilemma: are Serral fanboys deluded or korean elitists embarassingly biased? Why not both?
Emphatically both. The question of whether Serral fanboys are more deluded than Korean elitists are biased is the question that should be asked.
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Classic vs Serral is a really interesting question. The arguments above have really held my interest, actually.
If "greatness" is just down to who has more wins against the toughest competition, I think it's hard to argue in Serral's favour. But if "greatness" is down to something else (hence why a player like SlayerS_BoxeR had votes for him, for example), then the case for Serral is a bit more compelling. His streak was an amazing feat. He was also almost certainly the best player in the world for a while. Probably not the whole year, but by the end of the year, yes. Classic, on the other hand, has two premiere Korean tournaments under his belt from extremely competitive eras. He's missing the "extra charm" that Serral has. Serral was apparently the most watched player in SC2 last year by a very wide margin. If you're the kind of person who votes for SlayerS_BoxeR in an SC2 GOAT poll, then maybe Serral's your man against Classic. Sometimes there are extra factors that give the subjective impression of greatness, which are beyond the raw win statistics. This is a really subjective thing, though, and the tension between "impression of greatness" and "actual achievements". If Classic had all of his wins in a solid streak, though, I'm pretty convinced we wouldn't be having this conversation at all.
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Bisutopia19152 Posts
Classic has been consistent for a very long time now. Serral's career is still too young to surpass Classic at this point. Classic also won GSL/SSL when the competition was arguably tougher too.
Here's another way to look at it. Could Serral have ever accomplished what Classic did if they swapped careers? I don't think so. But it's possible for Classic to have filled Serral's shoes. Classic too could have won every WCS last year and a ST and a Blizzcon. If he wins this GSL he is essentially doing that already.
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On May 16 2019 22:46 Yonnua wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2019 22:31 Wombat_NI wrote:On May 16 2019 21:49 Yonnua wrote:On May 16 2019 21:45 Wombat_NI wrote:
Just going to list Koreans for these
GSL vs the World
Innovation 3-0
Dark 3-1
Stats 4-3
WCS Global Finals
sOs 2-0
Zest 2-0
Dark 3-0
Rogue 3-1
Stats 4-2
IEM Katowice
Rogue 2-0
Solar 2-1
Ragnarok 2-1
Gumiho 2-1
Innovation 1-2 (Dead rubber)
soO 3-2 (Tournament champion)
WESG
Dark 3-1
Innovation 3-4 (Grand finals)
It’s not a huge amount of games, it’s still an impressive sample of games though. It’s a rather damn solid set of players when if I’m being harsh maybe Ragnarok is the weakest.
Add to that his WCS domination that nobody has managed to do before, even Neeb/Scarlett aren’t this dominant over the even weaker split off WCS NA. Or the first Koreans to go to WCS America when that was a thing, or a fulltime Idra in the early MLG circuits.
I think people underrate it a good bit, it’s not GSL but there are lots of really bloody good players there. Outside of Serral the quartet of players in Scarlett, Special, Neeb and Scarlett who have gone to Korea for periods, and at least made it out of the Ro16, do not consistently all sail through to the Ro4 and only get knocked out by each other or Serral in WCS. I think Elazer did ok in GSL at one point too? Although that was during my SC hiatus and I haven’t got back that far in my retrospective VoD viewing.
It’s not how it used to be, when legitimately the top 50 players in the world would be 45+ Koreans, and winning a series against a Korean player, even a C tier one was a big deal.
I was going to actually flip a coin on this one, I love me Classic and his body of work is great, and I’m rooting for him in his last year before military, but I voted Serral to counterbalance opinions like 4 WCS titles = one GSL semifinal. Maybe compare that to the list of Classic's achievements above though, because he's beaten the same quality of players more times than Serral has. Stop comparing Serral to Neeb and Scarlett and compare him to the player he's up against, because if Classic goes out because he isn't as good at not being Korean as Serral is, then that's just ridiculous. I think Serral’s peak level of play is better, not by much necessarily. I was more impressed by how well he won on his streak rather than that he won. I said earlier in the thread I do factor in longevity, but if people’s peaks are also a factor for me, and Classic is near the end of his career pre-military at least, Serral is no newcomer but he’s not that long into hitting his final form. I can more easily compare say, Inno and Classic because they are contemporaries and competed in the same scene as each other at the same time. It feels unfair to Serral to weight it on longevity in the scene vs a veteran pro-gamer, equally it feels unfair to Classic to discount his consistent period of great performances. So I think I have to go off peak, both in terms of actual gameplay but also where would you rank highest in the scene at your best point. I think Serral has a legitimate shout to have been the outright best player in the world when he won Blizzcon, not 100% by consensus but, plausibly. In the other matchup Innovation has had periods where he’s held that unofficial title. I don’t think Classic ever really has hit that level, regardless of what he’s won so I’ll say Serral shades this matchup for me. I love my sports analogies so I’ll say Classics is maybe the Andy Murray of Starcraft. A perennial winner and deep runs in tournaments, but even when he officially held the rank he was never really who the pundits considered the best player in the world at any given time. I’ll have to figure out what tennis player Serral is now QQ He's like Grigor Dimitrov, who won the ATP Pro Tour finals, but has never won in a grand slam. Serral doesn't compete in Grand Slams, he just wins ATP tour events. Nobody would ever consider a tennis player with just ATP wins to be the greatest of all time. Even if a player won dozens of ATPs in straight sets, we recognise that what matters is competing in Grand Slams, because that's where the competition is. Edit: or Lleyton Hewitt if he never won his GSs.
Zverev. Hasn't won a GS, won ATP finals (Blizzcon?) and a bunch of Masters, is still up and coming, young and hungry
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On May 16 2019 23:35 BisuDagger wrote:
Classic has been consistent for a very long time now. Serral's career is still too young to surpass Classic at this point. Classic also won GSL/SSL when the competition was arguably tougher too.
Here's another way to look at it. Could Serral have ever accomplished what Classic did if they swapped careers? I don't think so. But it's possible for Classic to have filled Serral's shoes. Classic too could have won every WCS last year and a ST and a Blizzcon. If he wins this GSL he is essentially doing that already.
Clearly Classic couldn't win last year's blizzcon. He was there, and he lost. So given that he *didn't* win even 1 of the tournaments that Serral *did* win, despite being there, what are you basing it on to say that Classic could've done everything Serral did?
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On May 16 2019 23:35 BisuDagger wrote:
Classic has been consistent for a very long time now. Serral's career is still too young to surpass Classic at this point. Classic also won GSL/SSL when the competition was arguably tougher too.
Here's another way to look at it. Could Serral have ever accomplished what Classic did if they swapped careers? I don't think so. But it's possible for Classic to have filled Serral's shoes. Classic too could have won every WCS last year and a ST and a Blizzcon. If he wins this GSL he is essentially doing that already.
What do you mean? Peak Serral was stronger than peak Classic whereas obviously a young Serral who could not even qualify for WCS in 2014 would have never won Code S.
On the other hand, Classic never reached the finals at BlizzCon and in 2018 specifically he crashed 0-2 out of groupstages in 2018(eliminated by a foreigner, just like in Code S S2); he obviously had enough skill to win WCS, but would he have? Four consecutively? Let me doubt it.
Edit: Serral reminds me of Djokovic because of his extreme dominance in his best year, but unlike in Sc2, all the Majors in Tennis are universally recognized as the most prestigious and region lock doesn't exist.
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On May 16 2019 22:54 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2019 22:17 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 16 2019 21:49 Xain0n wrote:On May 16 2019 21:23 Charoisaur wrote:
You could split Classic's achievements in half and he'd still be way ahead of Serral.
The fact that people here are even arguing in favor of Serral jusr shows how ridicolously deluded his fanboys are.
Let's be honest - his main achievement is "being a foreigner". Without that the poll would be as one-sided as the Leenock - INnoVation poll. The good old dilemma: are Serral fanboys deluded or korean elitists embarassingly biased? If you try to argue that serral is already a top 10 contender with the results he has at this point? Yeah I'll go with the former. That only makes sense if you think that WCS is incredibly close to tournaments where top koreans can compete, which is ridiculous. No WCS isn't worthless either, one should try to weigh it reasonably though. By far most of serral's success comes from WCS tournaments. If we only look at tournaments with korean competition (i hope one doesn't have to explain why that takes priority? It was done over and over again) we get these results: Ro8: Katowice 2017, IEM PyeongChang, Katowice 2019 ro4: Katowice 2018, 3rd WESG 2017 2nd: WESG 2018 1st: GSL vs the world 2018, blizzcon 2018 Which is a nice résumé, but let's look at classic now. ro8: IEM cologne 2014,IEM taipei 2015, Kespa cup s2 2015, gsl s3 2015, ssl s1 2016, gsl st2 2017, gsl s1 2018, gsl vs the world 2018 ro4: kespa cup 2014, blizzcon 2014, blizzcon 2015, ssl s2 2016, WESG 2017 4th, gsl s2 2017, ssl s2 2017 3rd, gsl st1 2018, gsl s2 2018 2nd: Katowice 2018, gsl s1 2019 1st: gsl s2 2014, ssl s2 2015, iem Shenzhen 2015, gsl st2 2018, gsl st1 2019 The difference is huge, now if you want to make a case that the wcs results serral got can make up the difference, go for it. Show nested quote +On May 16 2019 22:17 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 16 2019 21:49 Xain0n wrote:On May 16 2019 21:23 Charoisaur wrote:
You could split Classic's achievements in half and he'd still be way ahead of Serral.
The fact that people here are even arguing in favor of Serral jusr shows how ridicolously deluded his fanboys are.
Let's be honest - his main achievement is "being a foreigner". Without that the poll would be as one-sided as the Leenock - INnoVation poll. The good old dilemma: are Serral fanboys deluded or korean elitists embarassingly biased? If you try to argue that serral is already a top 10 contender with the results he has at this point? Yeah I'll go with the former. That only makes sense if you think that WCS is incredibly close to tournaments where top koreans can compete, which is ridiculous. No WCS isn't worthless either, one should try to weigh it reasonably though. By far most of serral's success comes from WCS tournaments. If we only look at tournaments with korean competition (i hope one doesn't have to explain why that takes priority? It was done over and over again) we get these results: Ro8: Katowice 2017, IEM PyeongChang, Katowice 2019 ro4: Katowice 2018, 3rd WESG 2017 2nd: WESG 2018 1st: GSL vs the world 2018, blizzcon 2018 Which is a nice résumé, but let's look at classic now. ro8: IEM cologne 2014,IEM taipei 2015, Kespa cup s2 2015, gsl s3 2015, ssl s1 2016, gsl st2 2017, gsl s1 2018, gsl vs the world 2018 ro4: kespa cup 2014, blizzcon 2014, blizzcon 2015, ssl s2 2016, WESG 2017 4th, gsl s2 2017, ssl s2 2017 3rd, gsl st1 2018, gsl s2 2018 2nd: Katowice 2018, gsl s1 2019 1st: gsl s2 2014, ssl s2 2015, iem Shenzhen 2015, gsl st2 2018, gsl st1 2019 The difference is huge, now if you want to make a case that the wcs results serral got can make up the difference, go for it. The difference is also 3 years, which is kind of a big deal, and hard to catch up on, or directly compare anyway. Just less tournaments all round makes it harder to judge players, we don’t have the additional SSL anymore, or more international tournaments, or Proleague either. Annoying as a fan of the game but also annoying for discussing legacies haha I think the weighing is that it was 4 in a row and also came in a streak of another two tournaments including the biggest singular one there is. Despite the crushing heartbreak I imagine it gave the guy I’d still rate soO’s Kong streak as more impressive than folks who got singular GSLs and fell off. It’s his peak form and peak achievements that I rate Serral more on, but his consistency the tier beneath that is also pretty crazy. In every GSL season there is usually a top tier player or two who goes out in the Ro32, and almost always this necessitates losing to a player who isn’t on your level in at least one of your matches. In other eSports never mind ye olde regular sports this is less commonplace, it’s only really impressive to me in something like SC2 to be that consistent at a lower level.
Serral was playing in 2012 already, it might not have been full time which is something to remember and consider, but he was playing in tournaments still.
Now if we neglect that and say he had less time, ok but why does that matter? This is the goat discussion, the greatest of all time. You don't become the greatest of all time by having a nice streak (dominance), you become the greatest of all time by being on the top of the playing field for a very long time, simply because you have to surpass players who came before you and already did that as well. Success/results matter, not what if scenarios which happen in your mind.
Serral isn't even close to classic's success, partly because he can't be at this point (if we really neglect his career prior to say 2017), but that's just how it is. Maybe he'll be able to change that in the years to come.
Right now voting for serral is ludicrous under any rational pov.
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On May 16 2019 23:47 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2019 22:54 Wombat_NI wrote:On May 16 2019 22:17 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 16 2019 21:49 Xain0n wrote:On May 16 2019 21:23 Charoisaur wrote:
You could split Classic's achievements in half and he'd still be way ahead of Serral.
The fact that people here are even arguing in favor of Serral jusr shows how ridicolously deluded his fanboys are.
Let's be honest - his main achievement is "being a foreigner". Without that the poll would be as one-sided as the Leenock - INnoVation poll. The good old dilemma: are Serral fanboys deluded or korean elitists embarassingly biased? If you try to argue that serral is already a top 10 contender with the results he has at this point? Yeah I'll go with the former. That only makes sense if you think that WCS is incredibly close to tournaments where top koreans can compete, which is ridiculous. No WCS isn't worthless either, one should try to weigh it reasonably though. By far most of serral's success comes from WCS tournaments. If we only look at tournaments with korean competition (i hope one doesn't have to explain why that takes priority? It was done over and over again) we get these results: Ro8: Katowice 2017, IEM PyeongChang, Katowice 2019 ro4: Katowice 2018, 3rd WESG 2017 2nd: WESG 2018 1st: GSL vs the world 2018, blizzcon 2018 Which is a nice résumé, but let's look at classic now. ro8: IEM cologne 2014,IEM taipei 2015, Kespa cup s2 2015, gsl s3 2015, ssl s1 2016, gsl st2 2017, gsl s1 2018, gsl vs the world 2018 ro4: kespa cup 2014, blizzcon 2014, blizzcon 2015, ssl s2 2016, WESG 2017 4th, gsl s2 2017, ssl s2 2017 3rd, gsl st1 2018, gsl s2 2018 2nd: Katowice 2018, gsl s1 2019 1st: gsl s2 2014, ssl s2 2015, iem Shenzhen 2015, gsl st2 2018, gsl st1 2019 The difference is huge, now if you want to make a case that the wcs results serral got can make up the difference, go for it. On May 16 2019 22:17 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 16 2019 21:49 Xain0n wrote:On May 16 2019 21:23 Charoisaur wrote:
You could split Classic's achievements in half and he'd still be way ahead of Serral.
The fact that people here are even arguing in favor of Serral jusr shows how ridicolously deluded his fanboys are.
Let's be honest - his main achievement is "being a foreigner". Without that the poll would be as one-sided as the Leenock - INnoVation poll. The good old dilemma: are Serral fanboys deluded or korean elitists embarassingly biased? If you try to argue that serral is already a top 10 contender with the results he has at this point? Yeah I'll go with the former. That only makes sense if you think that WCS is incredibly close to tournaments where top koreans can compete, which is ridiculous. No WCS isn't worthless either, one should try to weigh it reasonably though. By far most of serral's success comes from WCS tournaments. If we only look at tournaments with korean competition (i hope one doesn't have to explain why that takes priority? It was done over and over again) we get these results: Ro8: Katowice 2017, IEM PyeongChang, Katowice 2019 ro4: Katowice 2018, 3rd WESG 2017 2nd: WESG 2018 1st: GSL vs the world 2018, blizzcon 2018 Which is a nice résumé, but let's look at classic now. ro8: IEM cologne 2014,IEM taipei 2015, Kespa cup s2 2015, gsl s3 2015, ssl s1 2016, gsl st2 2017, gsl s1 2018, gsl vs the world 2018 ro4: kespa cup 2014, blizzcon 2014, blizzcon 2015, ssl s2 2016, WESG 2017 4th, gsl s2 2017, ssl s2 2017 3rd, gsl st1 2018, gsl s2 2018 2nd: Katowice 2018, gsl s1 2019 1st: gsl s2 2014, ssl s2 2015, iem Shenzhen 2015, gsl st2 2018, gsl st1 2019 The difference is huge, now if you want to make a case that the wcs results serral got can make up the difference, go for it. The difference is also 3 years, which is kind of a big deal, and hard to catch up on, or directly compare anyway. Just less tournaments all round makes it harder to judge players, we don’t have the additional SSL anymore, or more international tournaments, or Proleague either. Annoying as a fan of the game but also annoying for discussing legacies haha I think the weighing is that it was 4 in a row and also came in a streak of another two tournaments including the biggest singular one there is. Despite the crushing heartbreak I imagine it gave the guy I’d still rate soO’s Kong streak as more impressive than folks who got singular GSLs and fell off. It’s his peak form and peak achievements that I rate Serral more on, but his consistency the tier beneath that is also pretty crazy. In every GSL season there is usually a top tier player or two who goes out in the Ro32, and almost always this necessitates losing to a player who isn’t on your level in at least one of your matches. In other eSports never mind ye olde regular sports this is less commonplace, it’s only really impressive to me in something like SC2 to be that consistent at a lower level. Serral was playing in 2012 already, it might not have been full time which is something to remember and consider, but he was playing in tournaments still. Now if we neglect that and say he had less time, ok but why does that matter? This is the goat discussion, the greatest of all time. You don't become the greatest of all time by having a nice streak (dominance), you become the greatest of all time by being on the top of the playing field for a very long time, simply because you have to surpass players who came before you and already did that as well. Success/results matter, not what if scenarios which happen in your mind. Serral isn't even close to classic's success, partly because he can't be at this point (if we really neglect his career prior to say 2017), but that's just how it is. Maybe he'll be able to change that in the years to come. Right now voting for serral is ludicrous under any rational pov.
Classic wasn't on top tho. He was near the top. For a very long time. Serral was (arguably) on top. Even if it was for shorter, he was *actually* on top, as opposed to just nearby.
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I love our discussions <3
Props to everyone for keeping it civil
Classic : Serral is neck and neck
Leenock finally has his vote
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Stephano's got a Korean flag in the Liquipedia for this.
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On May 16 2019 23:58 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2019 23:47 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 16 2019 22:54 Wombat_NI wrote:On May 16 2019 22:17 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 16 2019 21:49 Xain0n wrote:On May 16 2019 21:23 Charoisaur wrote:
You could split Classic's achievements in half and he'd still be way ahead of Serral.
The fact that people here are even arguing in favor of Serral jusr shows how ridicolously deluded his fanboys are.
Let's be honest - his main achievement is "being a foreigner". Without that the poll would be as one-sided as the Leenock - INnoVation poll. The good old dilemma: are Serral fanboys deluded or korean elitists embarassingly biased? If you try to argue that serral is already a top 10 contender with the results he has at this point? Yeah I'll go with the former. That only makes sense if you think that WCS is incredibly close to tournaments where top koreans can compete, which is ridiculous. No WCS isn't worthless either, one should try to weigh it reasonably though. By far most of serral's success comes from WCS tournaments. If we only look at tournaments with korean competition (i hope one doesn't have to explain why that takes priority? It was done over and over again) we get these results: Ro8: Katowice 2017, IEM PyeongChang, Katowice 2019 ro4: Katowice 2018, 3rd WESG 2017 2nd: WESG 2018 1st: GSL vs the world 2018, blizzcon 2018 Which is a nice résumé, but let's look at classic now. ro8: IEM cologne 2014,IEM taipei 2015, Kespa cup s2 2015, gsl s3 2015, ssl s1 2016, gsl st2 2017, gsl s1 2018, gsl vs the world 2018 ro4: kespa cup 2014, blizzcon 2014, blizzcon 2015, ssl s2 2016, WESG 2017 4th, gsl s2 2017, ssl s2 2017 3rd, gsl st1 2018, gsl s2 2018 2nd: Katowice 2018, gsl s1 2019 1st: gsl s2 2014, ssl s2 2015, iem Shenzhen 2015, gsl st2 2018, gsl st1 2019 The difference is huge, now if you want to make a case that the wcs results serral got can make up the difference, go for it. On May 16 2019 22:17 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 16 2019 21:49 Xain0n wrote:On May 16 2019 21:23 Charoisaur wrote:
You could split Classic's achievements in half and he'd still be way ahead of Serral.
The fact that people here are even arguing in favor of Serral jusr shows how ridicolously deluded his fanboys are.
Let's be honest - his main achievement is "being a foreigner". Without that the poll would be as one-sided as the Leenock - INnoVation poll. The good old dilemma: are Serral fanboys deluded or korean elitists embarassingly biased? If you try to argue that serral is already a top 10 contender with the results he has at this point? Yeah I'll go with the former. That only makes sense if you think that WCS is incredibly close to tournaments where top koreans can compete, which is ridiculous. No WCS isn't worthless either, one should try to weigh it reasonably though. By far most of serral's success comes from WCS tournaments. If we only look at tournaments with korean competition (i hope one doesn't have to explain why that takes priority? It was done over and over again) we get these results: Ro8: Katowice 2017, IEM PyeongChang, Katowice 2019 ro4: Katowice 2018, 3rd WESG 2017 2nd: WESG 2018 1st: GSL vs the world 2018, blizzcon 2018 Which is a nice résumé, but let's look at classic now. ro8: IEM cologne 2014,IEM taipei 2015, Kespa cup s2 2015, gsl s3 2015, ssl s1 2016, gsl st2 2017, gsl s1 2018, gsl vs the world 2018 ro4: kespa cup 2014, blizzcon 2014, blizzcon 2015, ssl s2 2016, WESG 2017 4th, gsl s2 2017, ssl s2 2017 3rd, gsl st1 2018, gsl s2 2018 2nd: Katowice 2018, gsl s1 2019 1st: gsl s2 2014, ssl s2 2015, iem Shenzhen 2015, gsl st2 2018, gsl st1 2019 The difference is huge, now if you want to make a case that the wcs results serral got can make up the difference, go for it. The difference is also 3 years, which is kind of a big deal, and hard to catch up on, or directly compare anyway. Just less tournaments all round makes it harder to judge players, we don’t have the additional SSL anymore, or more international tournaments, or Proleague either. Annoying as a fan of the game but also annoying for discussing legacies haha I think the weighing is that it was 4 in a row and also came in a streak of another two tournaments including the biggest singular one there is. Despite the crushing heartbreak I imagine it gave the guy I’d still rate soO’s Kong streak as more impressive than folks who got singular GSLs and fell off. It’s his peak form and peak achievements that I rate Serral more on, but his consistency the tier beneath that is also pretty crazy. In every GSL season there is usually a top tier player or two who goes out in the Ro32, and almost always this necessitates losing to a player who isn’t on your level in at least one of your matches. In other eSports never mind ye olde regular sports this is less commonplace, it’s only really impressive to me in something like SC2 to be that consistent at a lower level. Serral was playing in 2012 already, it might not have been full time which is something to remember and consider, but he was playing in tournaments still. Now if we neglect that and say he had less time, ok but why does that matter? This is the goat discussion, the greatest of all time. You don't become the greatest of all time by having a nice streak (dominance), you become the greatest of all time by being on the top of the playing field for a very long time, simply because you have to surpass players who came before you and already did that as well. Success/results matter, not what if scenarios which happen in your mind. Serral isn't even close to classic's success, partly because he can't be at this point (if we really neglect his career prior to say 2017), but that's just how it is. Maybe he'll be able to change that in the years to come. Right now voting for serral is ludicrous under any rational pov. Classic wasn't on top tho. He was near the top. For a very long time. Serral was (arguably) on top. Even if it was for shorter, he was *actually* on top, as opposed to just nearby.
Ok let's argue semantics now, being on top here should mean being "nearby" and always a threat to make it far in tournaments. That's what sc2 competition is about. And how does that manifest itself? In actual results.
Serral doesn't have nearly as many good/great results, now you can try and make a case that his WCS results close the gap, but then we probably heavily disagree with the worth of wcs compared to other tournaments. But hey you can try and make an argument for it.
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Northern Ireland23745 Posts
On May 16 2019 23:35 BisuDagger wrote:
Classic has been consistent for a very long time now. Serral's career is still too young to surpass Classic at this point. Classic also won GSL/SSL when the competition was arguably tougher too.
Here's another way to look at it. Could Serral have ever accomplished what Classic did if they swapped careers? I don't think so. But it's possible for Classic to have filled Serral's shoes. Classic too could have won every WCS last year and a ST and a Blizzcon. If he wins this GSL he is essentially doing that already.
They’d have to swap lives too though
I mean it hasn’t really been mentioned but I don’t think Serral winning what he has as a foreigner is necessarily the big impressive deal, it’s that he’s the first player who’s got to such a level without considerable periods of time in Korea and in full-time team house environments as well.
That’s a pretty big glass ceiling to break if we go back through SC2 history, never mind factoring in Brood War at all.
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Canada8988 Posts
On May 17 2019 00:02 intotheheart wrote:
Stephano's got a Korean flag in the Liquipedia for this.
Oups thanks for the head's up, fixed it.
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Northern Ireland23745 Posts
On May 16 2019 23:47 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2019 22:54 Wombat_NI wrote:On May 16 2019 22:17 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 16 2019 21:49 Xain0n wrote:On May 16 2019 21:23 Charoisaur wrote:
You could split Classic's achievements in half and he'd still be way ahead of Serral.
The fact that people here are even arguing in favor of Serral jusr shows how ridicolously deluded his fanboys are.
Let's be honest - his main achievement is "being a foreigner". Without that the poll would be as one-sided as the Leenock - INnoVation poll. The good old dilemma: are Serral fanboys deluded or korean elitists embarassingly biased? If you try to argue that serral is already a top 10 contender with the results he has at this point? Yeah I'll go with the former. That only makes sense if you think that WCS is incredibly close to tournaments where top koreans can compete, which is ridiculous. No WCS isn't worthless either, one should try to weigh it reasonably though. By far most of serral's success comes from WCS tournaments. If we only look at tournaments with korean competition (i hope one doesn't have to explain why that takes priority? It was done over and over again) we get these results: Ro8: Katowice 2017, IEM PyeongChang, Katowice 2019 ro4: Katowice 2018, 3rd WESG 2017 2nd: WESG 2018 1st: GSL vs the world 2018, blizzcon 2018 Which is a nice résumé, but let's look at classic now. ro8: IEM cologne 2014,IEM taipei 2015, Kespa cup s2 2015, gsl s3 2015, ssl s1 2016, gsl st2 2017, gsl s1 2018, gsl vs the world 2018 ro4: kespa cup 2014, blizzcon 2014, blizzcon 2015, ssl s2 2016, WESG 2017 4th, gsl s2 2017, ssl s2 2017 3rd, gsl st1 2018, gsl s2 2018 2nd: Katowice 2018, gsl s1 2019 1st: gsl s2 2014, ssl s2 2015, iem Shenzhen 2015, gsl st2 2018, gsl st1 2019 The difference is huge, now if you want to make a case that the wcs results serral got can make up the difference, go for it. On May 16 2019 22:17 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 16 2019 21:49 Xain0n wrote:On May 16 2019 21:23 Charoisaur wrote:
You could split Classic's achievements in half and he'd still be way ahead of Serral.
The fact that people here are even arguing in favor of Serral jusr shows how ridicolously deluded his fanboys are.
Let's be honest - his main achievement is "being a foreigner". Without that the poll would be as one-sided as the Leenock - INnoVation poll. The good old dilemma: are Serral fanboys deluded or korean elitists embarassingly biased? If you try to argue that serral is already a top 10 contender with the results he has at this point? Yeah I'll go with the former. That only makes sense if you think that WCS is incredibly close to tournaments where top koreans can compete, which is ridiculous. No WCS isn't worthless either, one should try to weigh it reasonably though. By far most of serral's success comes from WCS tournaments. If we only look at tournaments with korean competition (i hope one doesn't have to explain why that takes priority? It was done over and over again) we get these results: Ro8: Katowice 2017, IEM PyeongChang, Katowice 2019 ro4: Katowice 2018, 3rd WESG 2017 2nd: WESG 2018 1st: GSL vs the world 2018, blizzcon 2018 Which is a nice résumé, but let's look at classic now. ro8: IEM cologne 2014,IEM taipei 2015, Kespa cup s2 2015, gsl s3 2015, ssl s1 2016, gsl st2 2017, gsl s1 2018, gsl vs the world 2018 ro4: kespa cup 2014, blizzcon 2014, blizzcon 2015, ssl s2 2016, WESG 2017 4th, gsl s2 2017, ssl s2 2017 3rd, gsl st1 2018, gsl s2 2018 2nd: Katowice 2018, gsl s1 2019 1st: gsl s2 2014, ssl s2 2015, iem Shenzhen 2015, gsl st2 2018, gsl st1 2019 The difference is huge, now if you want to make a case that the wcs results serral got can make up the difference, go for it. The difference is also 3 years, which is kind of a big deal, and hard to catch up on, or directly compare anyway. Just less tournaments all round makes it harder to judge players, we don’t have the additional SSL anymore, or more international tournaments, or Proleague either. Annoying as a fan of the game but also annoying for discussing legacies haha I think the weighing is that it was 4 in a row and also came in a streak of another two tournaments including the biggest singular one there is. Despite the crushing heartbreak I imagine it gave the guy I’d still rate soO’s Kong streak as more impressive than folks who got singular GSLs and fell off. It’s his peak form and peak achievements that I rate Serral more on, but his consistency the tier beneath that is also pretty crazy. In every GSL season there is usually a top tier player or two who goes out in the Ro32, and almost always this necessitates losing to a player who isn’t on your level in at least one of your matches. In other eSports never mind ye olde regular sports this is less commonplace, it’s only really impressive to me in something like SC2 to be that consistent at a lower level. Serral was playing in 2012 already, it might not have been full time which is something to remember and consider, but he was playing in tournaments still. Now if we neglect that and say he had less time, ok but why does that matter? This is the goat discussion, the greatest of all time. You don't become the greatest of all time by having a nice streak (dominance), you become the greatest of all time by being on the top of the playing field for a very long time, simply because you have to surpass players who came before you and already did that as well. Success/results matter, not what if scenarios which happen in your mind. Serral isn't even close to classic's success, partly because he can't be at this point (if we really neglect his career prior to say 2017), but that's just how it is. Maybe he'll be able to change that in the years to come. Right now voting for serral is ludicrous under any rational pov.
By your personal criteria of greatness, which isn’t necessarily everyone’s.
I use my metrics I do I suppose because I’m a big sports nut and it comes from there. I weight peaks more highly than longevity, if the peaks are similar I’ll factor in longevity to break a tie.
Maybe it’s not the metric to use for SC, I apply it for sports because avoiding serious injury and being lucky in that regard is often the difference between burning brightly for a short period and falling from the top relatively quickly.
But even with SC injuries and military service come in as a factor.
I mean hypothetically if Serral posts similar results to Classic for the next five years, Classic decides not to return to SC and do something else with his life, then Serral will end up having more results because he’s played longer at the top of the game, which is just the reverse of now
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On May 17 2019 00:31 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2019 23:47 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 16 2019 22:54 Wombat_NI wrote:On May 16 2019 22:17 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 16 2019 21:49 Xain0n wrote:On May 16 2019 21:23 Charoisaur wrote:
You could split Classic's achievements in half and he'd still be way ahead of Serral.
The fact that people here are even arguing in favor of Serral jusr shows how ridicolously deluded his fanboys are.
Let's be honest - his main achievement is "being a foreigner". Without that the poll would be as one-sided as the Leenock - INnoVation poll. The good old dilemma: are Serral fanboys deluded or korean elitists embarassingly biased? If you try to argue that serral is already a top 10 contender with the results he has at this point? Yeah I'll go with the former. That only makes sense if you think that WCS is incredibly close to tournaments where top koreans can compete, which is ridiculous. No WCS isn't worthless either, one should try to weigh it reasonably though. By far most of serral's success comes from WCS tournaments. If we only look at tournaments with korean competition (i hope one doesn't have to explain why that takes priority? It was done over and over again) we get these results: Ro8: Katowice 2017, IEM PyeongChang, Katowice 2019 ro4: Katowice 2018, 3rd WESG 2017 2nd: WESG 2018 1st: GSL vs the world 2018, blizzcon 2018 Which is a nice résumé, but let's look at classic now. ro8: IEM cologne 2014,IEM taipei 2015, Kespa cup s2 2015, gsl s3 2015, ssl s1 2016, gsl st2 2017, gsl s1 2018, gsl vs the world 2018 ro4: kespa cup 2014, blizzcon 2014, blizzcon 2015, ssl s2 2016, WESG 2017 4th, gsl s2 2017, ssl s2 2017 3rd, gsl st1 2018, gsl s2 2018 2nd: Katowice 2018, gsl s1 2019 1st: gsl s2 2014, ssl s2 2015, iem Shenzhen 2015, gsl st2 2018, gsl st1 2019 The difference is huge, now if you want to make a case that the wcs results serral got can make up the difference, go for it. On May 16 2019 22:17 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 16 2019 21:49 Xain0n wrote:On May 16 2019 21:23 Charoisaur wrote:
You could split Classic's achievements in half and he'd still be way ahead of Serral.
The fact that people here are even arguing in favor of Serral jusr shows how ridicolously deluded his fanboys are.
Let's be honest - his main achievement is "being a foreigner". Without that the poll would be as one-sided as the Leenock - INnoVation poll. The good old dilemma: are Serral fanboys deluded or korean elitists embarassingly biased? If you try to argue that serral is already a top 10 contender with the results he has at this point? Yeah I'll go with the former. That only makes sense if you think that WCS is incredibly close to tournaments where top koreans can compete, which is ridiculous. No WCS isn't worthless either, one should try to weigh it reasonably though. By far most of serral's success comes from WCS tournaments. If we only look at tournaments with korean competition (i hope one doesn't have to explain why that takes priority? It was done over and over again) we get these results: Ro8: Katowice 2017, IEM PyeongChang, Katowice 2019 ro4: Katowice 2018, 3rd WESG 2017 2nd: WESG 2018 1st: GSL vs the world 2018, blizzcon 2018 Which is a nice résumé, but let's look at classic now. ro8: IEM cologne 2014,IEM taipei 2015, Kespa cup s2 2015, gsl s3 2015, ssl s1 2016, gsl st2 2017, gsl s1 2018, gsl vs the world 2018 ro4: kespa cup 2014, blizzcon 2014, blizzcon 2015, ssl s2 2016, WESG 2017 4th, gsl s2 2017, ssl s2 2017 3rd, gsl st1 2018, gsl s2 2018 2nd: Katowice 2018, gsl s1 2019 1st: gsl s2 2014, ssl s2 2015, iem Shenzhen 2015, gsl st2 2018, gsl st1 2019 The difference is huge, now if you want to make a case that the wcs results serral got can make up the difference, go for it. The difference is also 3 years, which is kind of a big deal, and hard to catch up on, or directly compare anyway. Just less tournaments all round makes it harder to judge players, we don’t have the additional SSL anymore, or more international tournaments, or Proleague either. Annoying as a fan of the game but also annoying for discussing legacies haha I think the weighing is that it was 4 in a row and also came in a streak of another two tournaments including the biggest singular one there is. Despite the crushing heartbreak I imagine it gave the guy I’d still rate soO’s Kong streak as more impressive than folks who got singular GSLs and fell off. It’s his peak form and peak achievements that I rate Serral more on, but his consistency the tier beneath that is also pretty crazy. In every GSL season there is usually a top tier player or two who goes out in the Ro32, and almost always this necessitates losing to a player who isn’t on your level in at least one of your matches. In other eSports never mind ye olde regular sports this is less commonplace, it’s only really impressive to me in something like SC2 to be that consistent at a lower level. Serral was playing in 2012 already, it might not have been full time which is something to remember and consider, but he was playing in tournaments still. Now if we neglect that and say he had less time, ok but why does that matter? This is the goat discussion, the greatest of all time. You don't become the greatest of all time by having a nice streak (dominance), you become the greatest of all time by being on the top of the playing field for a very long time, simply because you have to surpass players who came before you and already did that as well. Success/results matter, not what if scenarios which happen in your mind. Serral isn't even close to classic's success, partly because he can't be at this point (if we really neglect his career prior to say 2017), but that's just how it is. Maybe he'll be able to change that in the years to come. Right now voting for serral is ludicrous under any rational pov. By your personal criteria of greatness, which isn’t necessarily everyone’s. I use my metrics I do I suppose because I’m a big sports nut and it comes from there. I weight peaks more highly than longevity, if the peaks are similar I’ll factor in longevity to break a tie. Maybe it’s not the metric to use for SC, I apply it for sports because avoiding serious injury and being lucky in that regard is often the difference between burning brightly for a short period and falling from the top relatively quickly. But even with SC injuries and military service come in as a factor. I mean hypothetically if Serral posts similar results to Classic for the next five years, Classic decides not to return to SC and do something else with his life, then Serral will end up having more results because he’s played longer at the top of the game, which is just the reverse of now
Okay, let's do sports analogies then:
Is Don Budge better than Roger Federer? Don Budge had a better peak (in-year Grand Slam), and a better streak (4 Grand Slams in a row), but Federer has many more wins against better quality players over a longer period of time. Federer is clearly the greater player, and the same applies to Classic here.
Is Just Fontaine a better footballer than Ronaldo? Fontaine scored 13 goals in a single World Cup, completely dominating any other player at the tournament, and getting his country all the way to the semifinals, but has few other achievements. Ronaldo has more goals scored over his career and a longer period playing against higher quality players. Ronaldo is again clearly the greater player.
By any objective criteria, if these two players careers were looked at in any other context, it would be clear cut. The "story" of Serral and his nationality are the only reasons why people are trying to make excuses for him to win.
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On May 17 2019 00:04 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2019 23:58 Acrofales wrote:On May 16 2019 23:47 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 16 2019 22:54 Wombat_NI wrote:On May 16 2019 22:17 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 16 2019 21:49 Xain0n wrote:On May 16 2019 21:23 Charoisaur wrote:
You could split Classic's achievements in half and he'd still be way ahead of Serral.
The fact that people here are even arguing in favor of Serral jusr shows how ridicolously deluded his fanboys are.
Let's be honest - his main achievement is "being a foreigner". Without that the poll would be as one-sided as the Leenock - INnoVation poll. The good old dilemma: are Serral fanboys deluded or korean elitists embarassingly biased? If you try to argue that serral is already a top 10 contender with the results he has at this point? Yeah I'll go with the former. That only makes sense if you think that WCS is incredibly close to tournaments where top koreans can compete, which is ridiculous. No WCS isn't worthless either, one should try to weigh it reasonably though. By far most of serral's success comes from WCS tournaments. If we only look at tournaments with korean competition (i hope one doesn't have to explain why that takes priority? It was done over and over again) we get these results: Ro8: Katowice 2017, IEM PyeongChang, Katowice 2019 ro4: Katowice 2018, 3rd WESG 2017 2nd: WESG 2018 1st: GSL vs the world 2018, blizzcon 2018 Which is a nice résumé, but let's look at classic now. ro8: IEM cologne 2014,IEM taipei 2015, Kespa cup s2 2015, gsl s3 2015, ssl s1 2016, gsl st2 2017, gsl s1 2018, gsl vs the world 2018 ro4: kespa cup 2014, blizzcon 2014, blizzcon 2015, ssl s2 2016, WESG 2017 4th, gsl s2 2017, ssl s2 2017 3rd, gsl st1 2018, gsl s2 2018 2nd: Katowice 2018, gsl s1 2019 1st: gsl s2 2014, ssl s2 2015, iem Shenzhen 2015, gsl st2 2018, gsl st1 2019 The difference is huge, now if you want to make a case that the wcs results serral got can make up the difference, go for it. On May 16 2019 22:17 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 16 2019 21:49 Xain0n wrote:On May 16 2019 21:23 Charoisaur wrote:
You could split Classic's achievements in half and he'd still be way ahead of Serral.
The fact that people here are even arguing in favor of Serral jusr shows how ridicolously deluded his fanboys are.
Let's be honest - his main achievement is "being a foreigner". Without that the poll would be as one-sided as the Leenock - INnoVation poll. The good old dilemma: are Serral fanboys deluded or korean elitists embarassingly biased? If you try to argue that serral is already a top 10 contender with the results he has at this point? Yeah I'll go with the former. That only makes sense if you think that WCS is incredibly close to tournaments where top koreans can compete, which is ridiculous. No WCS isn't worthless either, one should try to weigh it reasonably though. By far most of serral's success comes from WCS tournaments. If we only look at tournaments with korean competition (i hope one doesn't have to explain why that takes priority? It was done over and over again) we get these results: Ro8: Katowice 2017, IEM PyeongChang, Katowice 2019 ro4: Katowice 2018, 3rd WESG 2017 2nd: WESG 2018 1st: GSL vs the world 2018, blizzcon 2018 Which is a nice résumé, but let's look at classic now. ro8: IEM cologne 2014,IEM taipei 2015, Kespa cup s2 2015, gsl s3 2015, ssl s1 2016, gsl st2 2017, gsl s1 2018, gsl vs the world 2018 ro4: kespa cup 2014, blizzcon 2014, blizzcon 2015, ssl s2 2016, WESG 2017 4th, gsl s2 2017, ssl s2 2017 3rd, gsl st1 2018, gsl s2 2018 2nd: Katowice 2018, gsl s1 2019 1st: gsl s2 2014, ssl s2 2015, iem Shenzhen 2015, gsl st2 2018, gsl st1 2019 The difference is huge, now if you want to make a case that the wcs results serral got can make up the difference, go for it. The difference is also 3 years, which is kind of a big deal, and hard to catch up on, or directly compare anyway. Just less tournaments all round makes it harder to judge players, we don’t have the additional SSL anymore, or more international tournaments, or Proleague either. Annoying as a fan of the game but also annoying for discussing legacies haha I think the weighing is that it was 4 in a row and also came in a streak of another two tournaments including the biggest singular one there is. Despite the crushing heartbreak I imagine it gave the guy I’d still rate soO’s Kong streak as more impressive than folks who got singular GSLs and fell off. It’s his peak form and peak achievements that I rate Serral more on, but his consistency the tier beneath that is also pretty crazy. In every GSL season there is usually a top tier player or two who goes out in the Ro32, and almost always this necessitates losing to a player who isn’t on your level in at least one of your matches. In other eSports never mind ye olde regular sports this is less commonplace, it’s only really impressive to me in something like SC2 to be that consistent at a lower level. Serral was playing in 2012 already, it might not have been full time which is something to remember and consider, but he was playing in tournaments still. Now if we neglect that and say he had less time, ok but why does that matter? This is the goat discussion, the greatest of all time. You don't become the greatest of all time by having a nice streak (dominance), you become the greatest of all time by being on the top of the playing field for a very long time, simply because you have to surpass players who came before you and already did that as well. Success/results matter, not what if scenarios which happen in your mind. Serral isn't even close to classic's success, partly because he can't be at this point (if we really neglect his career prior to say 2017), but that's just how it is. Maybe he'll be able to change that in the years to come. Right now voting for serral is ludicrous under any rational pov. Classic wasn't on top tho. He was near the top. For a very long time. Serral was (arguably) on top. Even if it was for shorter, he was *actually* on top, as opposed to just nearby. Ok let's argue semantics now, being on top here should mean being "nearby" and always a threat to make it far in tournaments. That's what sc2 competition is about. And how does that manifest itself? In actual results. Serral doesn't have nearly as many good/great results, now you can try and make a case that his WCS results close the gap, but then we probably heavily disagree with the worth of wcs compared to other tournaments. But hey you can try and make an argument for it.
It's the other way around, actually!
Serral has six Premier victories at the moment(I'd add half due to HSC), four of which in WCS; the key is how much they should weight in comparison to korean tournaments.
In any of case, it's not like they are worthless like you are implying.
Serral being top10 in a GOAT list can be discussed, I would say it's appropriate but I can totally understand you if you think otherwise.
Stating he is already top 4 or even #1 is truly delusional but not especially more thant thinking he is out of the top 32 on the conviction Olimoleagues are more competitive than Circuit tournaments...
Classic is not in a clearly higher league than Serral, he may or may not be top 10 material as well; whoever of them goes through shouldn't stand a chanche against Innovation's achievements.
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On May 17 2019 00:31 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2019 23:47 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 16 2019 22:54 Wombat_NI wrote:On May 16 2019 22:17 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 16 2019 21:49 Xain0n wrote:On May 16 2019 21:23 Charoisaur wrote:
You could split Classic's achievements in half and he'd still be way ahead of Serral.
The fact that people here are even arguing in favor of Serral jusr shows how ridicolously deluded his fanboys are.
Let's be honest - his main achievement is "being a foreigner". Without that the poll would be as one-sided as the Leenock - INnoVation poll. The good old dilemma: are Serral fanboys deluded or korean elitists embarassingly biased? If you try to argue that serral is already a top 10 contender with the results he has at this point? Yeah I'll go with the former. That only makes sense if you think that WCS is incredibly close to tournaments where top koreans can compete, which is ridiculous. No WCS isn't worthless either, one should try to weigh it reasonably though. By far most of serral's success comes from WCS tournaments. If we only look at tournaments with korean competition (i hope one doesn't have to explain why that takes priority? It was done over and over again) we get these results: Ro8: Katowice 2017, IEM PyeongChang, Katowice 2019 ro4: Katowice 2018, 3rd WESG 2017 2nd: WESG 2018 1st: GSL vs the world 2018, blizzcon 2018 Which is a nice résumé, but let's look at classic now. ro8: IEM cologne 2014,IEM taipei 2015, Kespa cup s2 2015, gsl s3 2015, ssl s1 2016, gsl st2 2017, gsl s1 2018, gsl vs the world 2018 ro4: kespa cup 2014, blizzcon 2014, blizzcon 2015, ssl s2 2016, WESG 2017 4th, gsl s2 2017, ssl s2 2017 3rd, gsl st1 2018, gsl s2 2018 2nd: Katowice 2018, gsl s1 2019 1st: gsl s2 2014, ssl s2 2015, iem Shenzhen 2015, gsl st2 2018, gsl st1 2019 The difference is huge, now if you want to make a case that the wcs results serral got can make up the difference, go for it. On May 16 2019 22:17 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 16 2019 21:49 Xain0n wrote:On May 16 2019 21:23 Charoisaur wrote:
You could split Classic's achievements in half and he'd still be way ahead of Serral.
The fact that people here are even arguing in favor of Serral jusr shows how ridicolously deluded his fanboys are.
Let's be honest - his main achievement is "being a foreigner". Without that the poll would be as one-sided as the Leenock - INnoVation poll. The good old dilemma: are Serral fanboys deluded or korean elitists embarassingly biased? If you try to argue that serral is already a top 10 contender with the results he has at this point? Yeah I'll go with the former. That only makes sense if you think that WCS is incredibly close to tournaments where top koreans can compete, which is ridiculous. No WCS isn't worthless either, one should try to weigh it reasonably though. By far most of serral's success comes from WCS tournaments. If we only look at tournaments with korean competition (i hope one doesn't have to explain why that takes priority? It was done over and over again) we get these results: Ro8: Katowice 2017, IEM PyeongChang, Katowice 2019 ro4: Katowice 2018, 3rd WESG 2017 2nd: WESG 2018 1st: GSL vs the world 2018, blizzcon 2018 Which is a nice résumé, but let's look at classic now. ro8: IEM cologne 2014,IEM taipei 2015, Kespa cup s2 2015, gsl s3 2015, ssl s1 2016, gsl st2 2017, gsl s1 2018, gsl vs the world 2018 ro4: kespa cup 2014, blizzcon 2014, blizzcon 2015, ssl s2 2016, WESG 2017 4th, gsl s2 2017, ssl s2 2017 3rd, gsl st1 2018, gsl s2 2018 2nd: Katowice 2018, gsl s1 2019 1st: gsl s2 2014, ssl s2 2015, iem Shenzhen 2015, gsl st2 2018, gsl st1 2019 The difference is huge, now if you want to make a case that the wcs results serral got can make up the difference, go for it. The difference is also 3 years, which is kind of a big deal, and hard to catch up on, or directly compare anyway. Just less tournaments all round makes it harder to judge players, we don’t have the additional SSL anymore, or more international tournaments, or Proleague either. Annoying as a fan of the game but also annoying for discussing legacies haha I think the weighing is that it was 4 in a row and also came in a streak of another two tournaments including the biggest singular one there is. Despite the crushing heartbreak I imagine it gave the guy I’d still rate soO’s Kong streak as more impressive than folks who got singular GSLs and fell off. It’s his peak form and peak achievements that I rate Serral more on, but his consistency the tier beneath that is also pretty crazy. In every GSL season there is usually a top tier player or two who goes out in the Ro32, and almost always this necessitates losing to a player who isn’t on your level in at least one of your matches. In other eSports never mind ye olde regular sports this is less commonplace, it’s only really impressive to me in something like SC2 to be that consistent at a lower level. Serral was playing in 2012 already, it might not have been full time which is something to remember and consider, but he was playing in tournaments still. Now if we neglect that and say he had less time, ok but why does that matter? This is the goat discussion, the greatest of all time. You don't become the greatest of all time by having a nice streak (dominance), you become the greatest of all time by being on the top of the playing field for a very long time, simply because you have to surpass players who came before you and already did that as well. Success/results matter, not what if scenarios which happen in your mind. Serral isn't even close to classic's success, partly because he can't be at this point (if we really neglect his career prior to say 2017), but that's just how it is. Maybe he'll be able to change that in the years to come. Right now voting for serral is ludicrous under any rational pov. By your personal criteria of greatness, which isn’t necessarily everyone’s. I use my metrics I do I suppose because I’m a big sports nut and it comes from there. I weight peaks more highly than longevity, if the peaks are similar I’ll factor in longevity to break a tie. Maybe it’s not the metric to use for SC, I apply it for sports because avoiding serious injury and being lucky in that regard is often the difference between burning brightly for a short period and falling from the top relatively quickly. But even with SC injuries and military service come in as a factor. I mean hypothetically if Serral posts similar results to Classic for the next five years, Classic decides not to return to SC and do something else with his life, then Serral will end up having more results because he’s played longer at the top of the game, which is just the reverse of now
How can you justify this though? Usually competitors play for a similar amount of time in their respective fields and thus comparing them based on their actual results and merits makes a lot of sense.
Imagine a football player coming out of nowhere, having the greatest year in football history, winning the WC, winning championsleague, winning national championship with his club, scoring the most goals and assists but then over the next 10 years he is mediocre. Is he the greatest of all time? I'd say almost noone would make that case, it is that ridiculous to weigh that peak so much more than constant greatness.
Why are clustered results worth more than the same results over a longer period of time? Or even worth more than better results over a longer period of time. I don't think you can justify it.
On May 17 2019 00:42 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2019 00:04 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 16 2019 23:58 Acrofales wrote:On May 16 2019 23:47 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 16 2019 22:54 Wombat_NI wrote:On May 16 2019 22:17 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 16 2019 21:49 Xain0n wrote:On May 16 2019 21:23 Charoisaur wrote:
You could split Classic's achievements in half and he'd still be way ahead of Serral.
The fact that people here are even arguing in favor of Serral jusr shows how ridicolously deluded his fanboys are.
Let's be honest - his main achievement is "being a foreigner". Without that the poll would be as one-sided as the Leenock - INnoVation poll. The good old dilemma: are Serral fanboys deluded or korean elitists embarassingly biased? If you try to argue that serral is already a top 10 contender with the results he has at this point? Yeah I'll go with the former. That only makes sense if you think that WCS is incredibly close to tournaments where top koreans can compete, which is ridiculous. No WCS isn't worthless either, one should try to weigh it reasonably though. By far most of serral's success comes from WCS tournaments. If we only look at tournaments with korean competition (i hope one doesn't have to explain why that takes priority? It was done over and over again) we get these results: Ro8: Katowice 2017, IEM PyeongChang, Katowice 2019 ro4: Katowice 2018, 3rd WESG 2017 2nd: WESG 2018 1st: GSL vs the world 2018, blizzcon 2018 Which is a nice résumé, but let's look at classic now. ro8: IEM cologne 2014,IEM taipei 2015, Kespa cup s2 2015, gsl s3 2015, ssl s1 2016, gsl st2 2017, gsl s1 2018, gsl vs the world 2018 ro4: kespa cup 2014, blizzcon 2014, blizzcon 2015, ssl s2 2016, WESG 2017 4th, gsl s2 2017, ssl s2 2017 3rd, gsl st1 2018, gsl s2 2018 2nd: Katowice 2018, gsl s1 2019 1st: gsl s2 2014, ssl s2 2015, iem Shenzhen 2015, gsl st2 2018, gsl st1 2019 The difference is huge, now if you want to make a case that the wcs results serral got can make up the difference, go for it. On May 16 2019 22:17 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 16 2019 21:49 Xain0n wrote:On May 16 2019 21:23 Charoisaur wrote:
You could split Classic's achievements in half and he'd still be way ahead of Serral.
The fact that people here are even arguing in favor of Serral jusr shows how ridicolously deluded his fanboys are.
Let's be honest - his main achievement is "being a foreigner". Without that the poll would be as one-sided as the Leenock - INnoVation poll. The good old dilemma: are Serral fanboys deluded or korean elitists embarassingly biased? If you try to argue that serral is already a top 10 contender with the results he has at this point? Yeah I'll go with the former. That only makes sense if you think that WCS is incredibly close to tournaments where top koreans can compete, which is ridiculous. No WCS isn't worthless either, one should try to weigh it reasonably though. By far most of serral's success comes from WCS tournaments. If we only look at tournaments with korean competition (i hope one doesn't have to explain why that takes priority? It was done over and over again) we get these results: Ro8: Katowice 2017, IEM PyeongChang, Katowice 2019 ro4: Katowice 2018, 3rd WESG 2017 2nd: WESG 2018 1st: GSL vs the world 2018, blizzcon 2018 Which is a nice résumé, but let's look at classic now. ro8: IEM cologne 2014,IEM taipei 2015, Kespa cup s2 2015, gsl s3 2015, ssl s1 2016, gsl st2 2017, gsl s1 2018, gsl vs the world 2018 ro4: kespa cup 2014, blizzcon 2014, blizzcon 2015, ssl s2 2016, WESG 2017 4th, gsl s2 2017, ssl s2 2017 3rd, gsl st1 2018, gsl s2 2018 2nd: Katowice 2018, gsl s1 2019 1st: gsl s2 2014, ssl s2 2015, iem Shenzhen 2015, gsl st2 2018, gsl st1 2019 The difference is huge, now if you want to make a case that the wcs results serral got can make up the difference, go for it. The difference is also 3 years, which is kind of a big deal, and hard to catch up on, or directly compare anyway. Just less tournaments all round makes it harder to judge players, we don’t have the additional SSL anymore, or more international tournaments, or Proleague either. Annoying as a fan of the game but also annoying for discussing legacies haha I think the weighing is that it was 4 in a row and also came in a streak of another two tournaments including the biggest singular one there is. Despite the crushing heartbreak I imagine it gave the guy I’d still rate soO’s Kong streak as more impressive than folks who got singular GSLs and fell off. It’s his peak form and peak achievements that I rate Serral more on, but his consistency the tier beneath that is also pretty crazy. In every GSL season there is usually a top tier player or two who goes out in the Ro32, and almost always this necessitates losing to a player who isn’t on your level in at least one of your matches. In other eSports never mind ye olde regular sports this is less commonplace, it’s only really impressive to me in something like SC2 to be that consistent at a lower level. Serral was playing in 2012 already, it might not have been full time which is something to remember and consider, but he was playing in tournaments still. Now if we neglect that and say he had less time, ok but why does that matter? This is the goat discussion, the greatest of all time. You don't become the greatest of all time by having a nice streak (dominance), you become the greatest of all time by being on the top of the playing field for a very long time, simply because you have to surpass players who came before you and already did that as well. Success/results matter, not what if scenarios which happen in your mind. Serral isn't even close to classic's success, partly because he can't be at this point (if we really neglect his career prior to say 2017), but that's just how it is. Maybe he'll be able to change that in the years to come. Right now voting for serral is ludicrous under any rational pov. Classic wasn't on top tho. He was near the top. For a very long time. Serral was (arguably) on top. Even if it was for shorter, he was *actually* on top, as opposed to just nearby. Ok let's argue semantics now, being on top here should mean being "nearby" and always a threat to make it far in tournaments. That's what sc2 competition is about. And how does that manifest itself? In actual results. Serral doesn't have nearly as many good/great results, now you can try and make a case that his WCS results close the gap, but then we probably heavily disagree with the worth of wcs compared to other tournaments. But hey you can try and make an argument for it. It's the other way around, actually! Serral has six Premier victories at the moment(I'd add half due to HSC), four of which in WCS; the key is how much they should weight in comparison to korean tournaments. In any of case, it's not like they are worthless like you are implying. Serral being top10 in a GOAT list can be discussed, I would say it's appropriate but I can totally understand you if you think otherwise. Stating he is already top 4 or even #1 is truly delusional but not especially more thant thinking he is out of the top 32 on the conviction Olimoleagues are more competitive than Circuit tournaments... Classic is not clearly in a higher league than Serral, he may or may not be top 10 material as well; whoever of them goes through shouldn't stand a chanche against Innovation's achievements.
I am not implying that, i didn't include them to show the gap in comparable tournament results and make people think if the wcs results could close that gap.
You just state things without any reasoning whatsoever, i made it fairly clear that all results should matter if we wanna evaluate a players' career and thus if that career is worthy of goat status (or where it would fall on a list). I only used ro8 onwards for the comparison post (and only individual success, classic easily beats serral in teamleague success btw).
The gap is night and day, so yeah i feel anyone who thinks that classic and serral are close in this evaluation are delusional, not as delusional as saying serral should be top 4 (hi dave4!), but they still neglect results and make up incredibly arbitrary factors to justify serral's greatness. When sc2 competition is quite easy, you try to win tournaments, you collect results. That's it.
Now we as people interested to compare the careers of players have to do some weighing there, not every 1st place is the same, not every ro8 is the same. That's where it becomes hard to have a similar pov. But outright neglecting the sheer gap in results is astonishing and intellectually dishonest in my eyes.
Players who come to mind who would be over serral: Zest, Classic, Stats, sOs, Rain, Maru, Mvp, Innovation, taeja, life, soO, nestea, mc
And that's only the ones which came to mind instantly, i bet there are more.
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On May 17 2019 00:42 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2019 00:31 Wombat_NI wrote:On May 16 2019 23:47 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 16 2019 22:54 Wombat_NI wrote:On May 16 2019 22:17 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 16 2019 21:49 Xain0n wrote:On May 16 2019 21:23 Charoisaur wrote:
You could split Classic's achievements in half and he'd still be way ahead of Serral.
The fact that people here are even arguing in favor of Serral jusr shows how ridicolously deluded his fanboys are.
Let's be honest - his main achievement is "being a foreigner". Without that the poll would be as one-sided as the Leenock - INnoVation poll. The good old dilemma: are Serral fanboys deluded or korean elitists embarassingly biased? If you try to argue that serral is already a top 10 contender with the results he has at this point? Yeah I'll go with the former. That only makes sense if you think that WCS is incredibly close to tournaments where top koreans can compete, which is ridiculous. No WCS isn't worthless either, one should try to weigh it reasonably though. By far most of serral's success comes from WCS tournaments. If we only look at tournaments with korean competition (i hope one doesn't have to explain why that takes priority? It was done over and over again) we get these results: Ro8: Katowice 2017, IEM PyeongChang, Katowice 2019 ro4: Katowice 2018, 3rd WESG 2017 2nd: WESG 2018 1st: GSL vs the world 2018, blizzcon 2018 Which is a nice résumé, but let's look at classic now. ro8: IEM cologne 2014,IEM taipei 2015, Kespa cup s2 2015, gsl s3 2015, ssl s1 2016, gsl st2 2017, gsl s1 2018, gsl vs the world 2018 ro4: kespa cup 2014, blizzcon 2014, blizzcon 2015, ssl s2 2016, WESG 2017 4th, gsl s2 2017, ssl s2 2017 3rd, gsl st1 2018, gsl s2 2018 2nd: Katowice 2018, gsl s1 2019 1st: gsl s2 2014, ssl s2 2015, iem Shenzhen 2015, gsl st2 2018, gsl st1 2019 The difference is huge, now if you want to make a case that the wcs results serral got can make up the difference, go for it. On May 16 2019 22:17 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 16 2019 21:49 Xain0n wrote:On May 16 2019 21:23 Charoisaur wrote:
You could split Classic's achievements in half and he'd still be way ahead of Serral.
The fact that people here are even arguing in favor of Serral jusr shows how ridicolously deluded his fanboys are.
Let's be honest - his main achievement is "being a foreigner". Without that the poll would be as one-sided as the Leenock - INnoVation poll. The good old dilemma: are Serral fanboys deluded or korean elitists embarassingly biased? If you try to argue that serral is already a top 10 contender with the results he has at this point? Yeah I'll go with the former. That only makes sense if you think that WCS is incredibly close to tournaments where top koreans can compete, which is ridiculous. No WCS isn't worthless either, one should try to weigh it reasonably though. By far most of serral's success comes from WCS tournaments. If we only look at tournaments with korean competition (i hope one doesn't have to explain why that takes priority? It was done over and over again) we get these results: Ro8: Katowice 2017, IEM PyeongChang, Katowice 2019 ro4: Katowice 2018, 3rd WESG 2017 2nd: WESG 2018 1st: GSL vs the world 2018, blizzcon 2018 Which is a nice résumé, but let's look at classic now. ro8: IEM cologne 2014,IEM taipei 2015, Kespa cup s2 2015, gsl s3 2015, ssl s1 2016, gsl st2 2017, gsl s1 2018, gsl vs the world 2018 ro4: kespa cup 2014, blizzcon 2014, blizzcon 2015, ssl s2 2016, WESG 2017 4th, gsl s2 2017, ssl s2 2017 3rd, gsl st1 2018, gsl s2 2018 2nd: Katowice 2018, gsl s1 2019 1st: gsl s2 2014, ssl s2 2015, iem Shenzhen 2015, gsl st2 2018, gsl st1 2019 The difference is huge, now if you want to make a case that the wcs results serral got can make up the difference, go for it. The difference is also 3 years, which is kind of a big deal, and hard to catch up on, or directly compare anyway. Just less tournaments all round makes it harder to judge players, we don’t have the additional SSL anymore, or more international tournaments, or Proleague either. Annoying as a fan of the game but also annoying for discussing legacies haha I think the weighing is that it was 4 in a row and also came in a streak of another two tournaments including the biggest singular one there is. Despite the crushing heartbreak I imagine it gave the guy I’d still rate soO’s Kong streak as more impressive than folks who got singular GSLs and fell off. It’s his peak form and peak achievements that I rate Serral more on, but his consistency the tier beneath that is also pretty crazy. In every GSL season there is usually a top tier player or two who goes out in the Ro32, and almost always this necessitates losing to a player who isn’t on your level in at least one of your matches. In other eSports never mind ye olde regular sports this is less commonplace, it’s only really impressive to me in something like SC2 to be that consistent at a lower level. Serral was playing in 2012 already, it might not have been full time which is something to remember and consider, but he was playing in tournaments still. Now if we neglect that and say he had less time, ok but why does that matter? This is the goat discussion, the greatest of all time. You don't become the greatest of all time by having a nice streak (dominance), you become the greatest of all time by being on the top of the playing field for a very long time, simply because you have to surpass players who came before you and already did that as well. Success/results matter, not what if scenarios which happen in your mind. Serral isn't even close to classic's success, partly because he can't be at this point (if we really neglect his career prior to say 2017), but that's just how it is. Maybe he'll be able to change that in the years to come. Right now voting for serral is ludicrous under any rational pov. By your personal criteria of greatness, which isn’t necessarily everyone’s. I use my metrics I do I suppose because I’m a big sports nut and it comes from there. I weight peaks more highly than longevity, if the peaks are similar I’ll factor in longevity to break a tie. Maybe it’s not the metric to use for SC, I apply it for sports because avoiding serious injury and being lucky in that regard is often the difference between burning brightly for a short period and falling from the top relatively quickly. But even with SC injuries and military service come in as a factor. I mean hypothetically if Serral posts similar results to Classic for the next five years, Classic decides not to return to SC and do something else with his life, then Serral will end up having more results because he’s played longer at the top of the game, which is just the reverse of now How can you justify this though? Usually competitors play for a similar amount of time in their respective fields and thus comparing them based on their actual results and merits makes a lot of sense. Imagine a football player coming out of nowhere, having the greatest year in football history, winning the WC, winning championsleague, winning national championship with his club, scoring the most goals and assists but then over the next 10 years he is mediocre. Is he the greatest of all time? I'd say almost noone would make that case, it is that ridiculous to weigh that peak so much more than constant greatness. Why are clustered results worth more than the same results over a longer period of time? Or even worth more than better results over a longer period of time. I don't think you can justify it.
Sounds like Ronaldinho to me. And there are people who legitimately think he is the greatest player ever (I don't).
As for the tennis: Classic isn't Federer. Innovation *might* be Federer. Classic is more like Andy Murray as someone said above. And Serral isn't really a Don Budge, but if that's who you're going for? Yes, sure. Don Budge is definitely a greater player than Andy Murray.
E: just to be clear, I don't think Serral is the GOAT. I just think he's greater than Classic.
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EPT
