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On April 05 2019 21:01 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2019 20:56 Xain0n wrote:On April 05 2019 20:44 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 20:40 Xain0n wrote:On April 05 2019 20:23 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 20:13 Philozovic wrote:On April 05 2019 18:03 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 16:32 Shuffleblade wrote:On April 05 2019 06:00 Poopi wrote:
The fact that he was so mediocre compared to his BW success should exclude him from anything GOAT related imo.
It’s super cool to win an IEM and stuff if you were a random BW pro, but when you were the GOAT of BW having as little success Flash had in sc2 is really mediocre, he didn’t live up to his potential, whereas Ryung was a random who achieved a lot of solid top 4, which is IMO a greater achievement.
Erm wat. So the greatest players aren't the greatest players, it is the most impressive underdog players? TY is not at all a great player because he was always hyped to be great and became great and then he isn't really great? Ryung was a random scrub that did something impressive for his level and therefore he is one of the greatest ever? Adelscott and Sjow more GOAT than TY? Sorry I'm just baffled by your line of thinking here, Sc2 is a radically different game from SC1 I think that Flash managed to do as much as he did in SC2 is an amazing achivement. To be as good as he was in two totally different games (not different genres but different games) is amazing to me. How is that amazing lol? All Kespa players managed to do well in sc2 so I don't see how it's amazing to do what everyone else was doing. And Ryung was way better than SjoW and Adelscott wtf are you talking about. It's the same as Serral: people are way more impressed of his achievements (basically he did in 2018 what Rogue did in 2017, yet he has been far more hyped) because he is a foreigner so he was going against the odds ; so I don't see what surprises you in my line of thinking, it's the same as what people do with Serral :o. Ryung won more money than Flash in sc2 and had better GSL results, so imo he is greater than Flash in sc2, especially given the fact that he has less potential. Sure honey, One is 21-2 in Offline bo3+ against Korean The other one is 38-18 One is 45-1 against non-korean The other one is 4-1 One won two tournament in a row and three in a year The other one won six in a row, seven in a year his worst placement was top 8 in a single elimination bracket The dude lost 3 series in a year always to the eventual winner of the tournament Basically the same, p <0.05 and shit GSL Super Tournament + BlizzCon + IEM Katowice vs GSL vs The World + BlizzCon + HSC Sorry I guess I was indeed mistaken, Rogue had a better stretch than Serral IEM Katowice took place in 2018, it's just not the same year. Philozovic's numbers of course mean nothing to you, right? If you don't want to take WCS into account you cannot conversely assume Serral lost tournaments left and right like Rogue did in 2017, so we can say Serral in four months(GSL vs the World+BlizzCon+HSC) achieved more than Rogue in one year(Super Tournament+BlizzCon). Quality of tournaments won does matter but the number of victories can't be casually disregarded; I said that many times and I'll repeat it today, WCS are obviously easier and less prestigious than Code S but no way they are as irrelevant as you guys seem to think. I didn't consider his numbers because when I had Rogue 2017 on aligulac it wasn't the same numbers as he posted, so without sources / ways to reproduce I don't see the point. The tournaments in a row thing is also cringe since it includes WCS in which koreans are banned / not the same level. So basically the same BS. IEM took place in 2018 but if you consider stretch of dominance it indicates that Rogue did better than Serral. I'm not sure if there was a HSC in late 2017 in which Rogue could have participated so bit of an unfair comparison, whereas IEM took place in 2019 and Serral didn't manage to win it as Rogue did. And I don't think they (WCS results) are irrelevant, but since koreans are prevented from participating, using these results to say Serral did better than others is utter bullshit because they can't do nothing to prevent him from winning these events. It's utter bullshit to pretend playing and losing hard tournaments is the same as not playing them(while, instead, playing and winning tournaments in your own area region cannot count because koreans aren't in). What stretch of dominance? Rogue lost frequently during that streak, Serral never did. it's utter bullshit to pretend farming ez tournaments is so much more impressive than playing and losing hard tournaments. If Serral doesn't play in hard tournaments (outside of occassional weekenders) he obviously doesn't lose as much.
There can't even be discussion here, there is nothing to share. Ro8 at best in Code S is better than WCS victories? Senseless!
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On April 05 2019 21:01 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2019 20:58 Philozovic wrote:On April 05 2019 20:44 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 20:40 Xain0n wrote:On April 05 2019 20:23 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 20:13 Philozovic wrote:On April 05 2019 18:03 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 16:32 Shuffleblade wrote:On April 05 2019 06:00 Poopi wrote:
The fact that he was so mediocre compared to his BW success should exclude him from anything GOAT related imo.
It’s super cool to win an IEM and stuff if you were a random BW pro, but when you were the GOAT of BW having as little success Flash had in sc2 is really mediocre, he didn’t live up to his potential, whereas Ryung was a random who achieved a lot of solid top 4, which is IMO a greater achievement.
Erm wat. So the greatest players aren't the greatest players, it is the most impressive underdog players? TY is not at all a great player because he was always hyped to be great and became great and then he isn't really great? Ryung was a random scrub that did something impressive for his level and therefore he is one of the greatest ever? Adelscott and Sjow more GOAT than TY? Sorry I'm just baffled by your line of thinking here, Sc2 is a radically different game from SC1 I think that Flash managed to do as much as he did in SC2 is an amazing achivement. To be as good as he was in two totally different games (not different genres but different games) is amazing to me. How is that amazing lol? All Kespa players managed to do well in sc2 so I don't see how it's amazing to do what everyone else was doing. And Ryung was way better than SjoW and Adelscott wtf are you talking about. It's the same as Serral: people are way more impressed of his achievements (basically he did in 2018 what Rogue did in 2017, yet he has been far more hyped) because he is a foreigner so he was going against the odds ; so I don't see what surprises you in my line of thinking, it's the same as what people do with Serral :o. Ryung won more money than Flash in sc2 and had better GSL results, so imo he is greater than Flash in sc2, especially given the fact that he has less potential. Sure honey, One is 22-4 in Offline bo3+ against Korean The other one is 38-18 One is 45-1 against non-korean The other one is 4-1 One won two tournament in a row and three in a year The other one won six in a row, seven in a year his worst placement was top 8 in a single elimination bracket The dude lost 3 series in a year always to the eventual winner of the tournament Basically the same, p <0.05 and shit GSL Super Tournament + BlizzCon + IEM Katowice vs GSL vs The World + BlizzCon + HSC Sorry I guess I was indeed mistaken, Rogue had a better stretch than Serral IEM Katowice took place in 2018, it's just not the same year. Philozovic's numbers of course mean nothing to you, right? If you don't want to take WCS into account you cannot conversely assume Serral lost tournaments left and right like Rogue did in 2017, so we can say Serral in four months(GSL vs the World+BlizzCon+HSC) achieved more than Rogue in one year(Super Tournament+BlizzCon). Quality of tournaments won does matter but the number of victories can't be casually disregarded; I said that many times and I'll repeat it today, WCS are obviously easier and less prestigious than Code S but no way they are as irrelevant as you guys seem to think. I didn't consider his numbers because when I had Rogue 2017 on aligulac it wasn't the same numbers as he posted, so without sources / ways to reproduce I don't see the point. The tournaments in a row thing is also cringe since it includes WCS in which koreans are banned / not the same level. So basically the same BS. IEM took place in 2018 but if you consider stretch of dominance it indicates that Rogue did better than Serral. I'm not sure if there was a HSC in late 2017 in which Rogue could have participated so bit of an unfair comparison, whereas IEM took place in 2019 and Serral didn't manage to win it as Rogue did. And I don't think they (WCS results) are irrelevant, but since koreans are prevented from participating, using these results to say Serral did better than others is utter bullshit because they can't do nothing to prevent him from winning these events. Litteraly aligulac : https://imgur.com/a/8LDTtMj Oh yeah, I didn't put in bo3+. Keep it at bo1+, why bo3+? Because it helps your guy? Strictly Rogue 2017 vs Serral 2018 is: IEM Shanghai + GSL ST2 + BlizzCon vs GSL vs The World + BlizzCon + HSC.
Sure or just because Offline bo3+ has always been the way to go for serious series
Anyone can lose or win a bo 1
But let's take bo1
Rogue is 41-21 Serral is 21-2 what a shocking difference
Also let's not consider the fact that Rogue was out in RO32 in one GSL and didn't qualfy for either SSL or ST1 lost in blizzcon goupe stage to neeb, lost in the other two GSL to Byun, soO and TY
While in 2018 of all the 3 series Serral lost he always lost to the future winner
But sure Rogue was "dominant"
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France12904 Posts
On April 05 2019 21:12 Philozovic wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2019 21:01 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 20:58 Philozovic wrote:On April 05 2019 20:44 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 20:40 Xain0n wrote:On April 05 2019 20:23 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 20:13 Philozovic wrote:On April 05 2019 18:03 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 16:32 Shuffleblade wrote:On April 05 2019 06:00 Poopi wrote:
The fact that he was so mediocre compared to his BW success should exclude him from anything GOAT related imo.
It’s super cool to win an IEM and stuff if you were a random BW pro, but when you were the GOAT of BW having as little success Flash had in sc2 is really mediocre, he didn’t live up to his potential, whereas Ryung was a random who achieved a lot of solid top 4, which is IMO a greater achievement.
Erm wat. So the greatest players aren't the greatest players, it is the most impressive underdog players? TY is not at all a great player because he was always hyped to be great and became great and then he isn't really great? Ryung was a random scrub that did something impressive for his level and therefore he is one of the greatest ever? Adelscott and Sjow more GOAT than TY? Sorry I'm just baffled by your line of thinking here, Sc2 is a radically different game from SC1 I think that Flash managed to do as much as he did in SC2 is an amazing achivement. To be as good as he was in two totally different games (not different genres but different games) is amazing to me. How is that amazing lol? All Kespa players managed to do well in sc2 so I don't see how it's amazing to do what everyone else was doing. And Ryung was way better than SjoW and Adelscott wtf are you talking about. It's the same as Serral: people are way more impressed of his achievements (basically he did in 2018 what Rogue did in 2017, yet he has been far more hyped) because he is a foreigner so he was going against the odds ; so I don't see what surprises you in my line of thinking, it's the same as what people do with Serral :o. Ryung won more money than Flash in sc2 and had better GSL results, so imo he is greater than Flash in sc2, especially given the fact that he has less potential. Sure honey, One is 21-2 in Offline bo3+ against Korean The other one is 38-18 One is 45-1 against non-korean The other one is 4-1 One won two tournament in a row and three in a year The other one won six in a row, seven in a year his worst placement was top 8 in a single elimination bracket The dude lost 3 series in a year always to the eventual winner of the tournament Basically the same, p <0.05 and shit GSL Super Tournament + BlizzCon + IEM Katowice vs GSL vs The World + BlizzCon + HSC Sorry I guess I was indeed mistaken, Rogue had a better stretch than Serral IEM Katowice took place in 2018, it's just not the same year. Philozovic's numbers of course mean nothing to you, right? If you don't want to take WCS into account you cannot conversely assume Serral lost tournaments left and right like Rogue did in 2017, so we can say Serral in four months(GSL vs the World+BlizzCon+HSC) achieved more than Rogue in one year(Super Tournament+BlizzCon). Quality of tournaments won does matter but the number of victories can't be casually disregarded; I said that many times and I'll repeat it today, WCS are obviously easier and less prestigious than Code S but no way they are as irrelevant as you guys seem to think. I didn't consider his numbers because when I had Rogue 2017 on aligulac it wasn't the same numbers as he posted, so without sources / ways to reproduce I don't see the point. The tournaments in a row thing is also cringe since it includes WCS in which koreans are banned / not the same level. So basically the same BS. IEM took place in 2018 but if you consider stretch of dominance it indicates that Rogue did better than Serral. I'm not sure if there was a HSC in late 2017 in which Rogue could have participated so bit of an unfair comparison, whereas IEM took place in 2019 and Serral didn't manage to win it as Rogue did. And I don't think they (WCS results) are irrelevant, but since koreans are prevented from participating, using these results to say Serral did better than others is utter bullshit because they can't do nothing to prevent him from winning these events. Litteraly aligulac : https://imgur.com/a/8LDTtMj Oh yeah, I didn't put in bo3+. Keep it at bo1+, why bo3+? Because it helps your guy? Strictly Rogue 2017 vs Serral 2018 is: IEM Shanghai + GSL ST2 + BlizzCon vs GSL vs The World + BlizzCon + HSC. Sure or just because Offline bo3+ has always been the way to go for serious series Anyone can lose or win a bo 1 But let's take bo1 Rogue is 41-21 Serral is 21-2 what a shocking difference Also let's not consider the fact that Rogue was out in RO32 in one GSL and didn't qualfy for either SSL or ST1 lost in blizzcon goupe stage to neeb, lost in the other two GSL to Byun, soO and TY While in 2018 of all the 3 series Serral lost he always lost to the future winner But sure Rogue was "dominant"
But what would have happened if koreans were allowed to play in WCS? Or if Serral would have participated in the GSL?
We can't really know but I highly doubt he'd have the same stats, especially around IEM / WESG time period
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On April 05 2019 21:09 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2019 21:01 Charoisaur wrote:On April 05 2019 20:56 Xain0n wrote:On April 05 2019 20:44 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 20:40 Xain0n wrote:On April 05 2019 20:23 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 20:13 Philozovic wrote:On April 05 2019 18:03 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 16:32 Shuffleblade wrote:On April 05 2019 06:00 Poopi wrote:
The fact that he was so mediocre compared to his BW success should exclude him from anything GOAT related imo.
It’s super cool to win an IEM and stuff if you were a random BW pro, but when you were the GOAT of BW having as little success Flash had in sc2 is really mediocre, he didn’t live up to his potential, whereas Ryung was a random who achieved a lot of solid top 4, which is IMO a greater achievement.
Erm wat. So the greatest players aren't the greatest players, it is the most impressive underdog players? TY is not at all a great player because he was always hyped to be great and became great and then he isn't really great? Ryung was a random scrub that did something impressive for his level and therefore he is one of the greatest ever? Adelscott and Sjow more GOAT than TY? Sorry I'm just baffled by your line of thinking here, Sc2 is a radically different game from SC1 I think that Flash managed to do as much as he did in SC2 is an amazing achivement. To be as good as he was in two totally different games (not different genres but different games) is amazing to me. How is that amazing lol? All Kespa players managed to do well in sc2 so I don't see how it's amazing to do what everyone else was doing. And Ryung was way better than SjoW and Adelscott wtf are you talking about. It's the same as Serral: people are way more impressed of his achievements (basically he did in 2018 what Rogue did in 2017, yet he has been far more hyped) because he is a foreigner so he was going against the odds ; so I don't see what surprises you in my line of thinking, it's the same as what people do with Serral :o. Ryung won more money than Flash in sc2 and had better GSL results, so imo he is greater than Flash in sc2, especially given the fact that he has less potential. Sure honey, One is 21-2 in Offline bo3+ against Korean The other one is 38-18 One is 45-1 against non-korean The other one is 4-1 One won two tournament in a row and three in a year The other one won six in a row, seven in a year his worst placement was top 8 in a single elimination bracket The dude lost 3 series in a year always to the eventual winner of the tournament Basically the same, p <0.05 and shit GSL Super Tournament + BlizzCon + IEM Katowice vs GSL vs The World + BlizzCon + HSC Sorry I guess I was indeed mistaken, Rogue had a better stretch than Serral IEM Katowice took place in 2018, it's just not the same year. Philozovic's numbers of course mean nothing to you, right? If you don't want to take WCS into account you cannot conversely assume Serral lost tournaments left and right like Rogue did in 2017, so we can say Serral in four months(GSL vs the World+BlizzCon+HSC) achieved more than Rogue in one year(Super Tournament+BlizzCon). Quality of tournaments won does matter but the number of victories can't be casually disregarded; I said that many times and I'll repeat it today, WCS are obviously easier and less prestigious than Code S but no way they are as irrelevant as you guys seem to think. I didn't consider his numbers because when I had Rogue 2017 on aligulac it wasn't the same numbers as he posted, so without sources / ways to reproduce I don't see the point. The tournaments in a row thing is also cringe since it includes WCS in which koreans are banned / not the same level. So basically the same BS. IEM took place in 2018 but if you consider stretch of dominance it indicates that Rogue did better than Serral. I'm not sure if there was a HSC in late 2017 in which Rogue could have participated so bit of an unfair comparison, whereas IEM took place in 2019 and Serral didn't manage to win it as Rogue did. And I don't think they (WCS results) are irrelevant, but since koreans are prevented from participating, using these results to say Serral did better than others is utter bullshit because they can't do nothing to prevent him from winning these events. It's utter bullshit to pretend playing and losing hard tournaments is the same as not playing them(while, instead, playing and winning tournaments in your own area region cannot count because koreans aren't in). What stretch of dominance? Rogue lost frequently during that streak, Serral never did. it's utter bullshit to pretend farming ez tournaments is so much more impressive than playing and losing hard tournaments. If Serral doesn't play in hard tournaments (outside of occassional weekenders) he obviously doesn't lose as much. There can't even be discussion here, there is nothing to share. Ro8 at best in Code S is better than WCS victories? Senseless!
Rogue 2017 season 2 beat Bunny, Patience, Dear, herO - lost to soO
Rogue 2017 season 3 beat Keen, Gumiho, Classic, soO - lost to Stats
You're right - beating Heromarine, Kelazhur, Lambo, Mana, TLO and Clem is much more impressive /s
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On April 05 2019 21:15 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2019 21:09 Xain0n wrote:On April 05 2019 21:01 Charoisaur wrote:On April 05 2019 20:56 Xain0n wrote:On April 05 2019 20:44 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 20:40 Xain0n wrote:On April 05 2019 20:23 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 20:13 Philozovic wrote:On April 05 2019 18:03 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 16:32 Shuffleblade wrote:
[quote]
Erm wat. So the greatest players aren't the greatest players, it is the most impressive underdog players? TY is not at all a great player because he was always hyped to be great and became great and then he isn't really great?
Ryung was a random scrub that did something impressive for his level and therefore he is one of the greatest ever? Adelscott and Sjow more GOAT than TY?
Sorry I'm just baffled by your line of thinking here, Sc2 is a radically different game from SC1 I think that Flash managed to do as much as he did in SC2 is an amazing achivement. To be as good as he was in two totally different games (not different genres but different games) is amazing to me. How is that amazing lol? All Kespa players managed to do well in sc2 so I don't see how it's amazing to do what everyone else was doing. And Ryung was way better than SjoW and Adelscott wtf are you talking about. It's the same as Serral: people are way more impressed of his achievements (basically he did in 2018 what Rogue did in 2017, yet he has been far more hyped) because he is a foreigner so he was going against the odds ; so I don't see what surprises you in my line of thinking, it's the same as what people do with Serral :o. Ryung won more money than Flash in sc2 and had better GSL results, so imo he is greater than Flash in sc2, especially given the fact that he has less potential. Sure honey, One is 21-2 in Offline bo3+ against Korean The other one is 38-18 One is 45-1 against non-korean The other one is 4-1 One won two tournament in a row and three in a year The other one won six in a row, seven in a year his worst placement was top 8 in a single elimination bracket The dude lost 3 series in a year always to the eventual winner of the tournament Basically the same, p <0.05 and shit GSL Super Tournament + BlizzCon + IEM Katowice vs GSL vs The World + BlizzCon + HSC Sorry I guess I was indeed mistaken, Rogue had a better stretch than Serral IEM Katowice took place in 2018, it's just not the same year. Philozovic's numbers of course mean nothing to you, right? If you don't want to take WCS into account you cannot conversely assume Serral lost tournaments left and right like Rogue did in 2017, so we can say Serral in four months(GSL vs the World+BlizzCon+HSC) achieved more than Rogue in one year(Super Tournament+BlizzCon). Quality of tournaments won does matter but the number of victories can't be casually disregarded; I said that many times and I'll repeat it today, WCS are obviously easier and less prestigious than Code S but no way they are as irrelevant as you guys seem to think. I didn't consider his numbers because when I had Rogue 2017 on aligulac it wasn't the same numbers as he posted, so without sources / ways to reproduce I don't see the point. The tournaments in a row thing is also cringe since it includes WCS in which koreans are banned / not the same level. So basically the same BS. IEM took place in 2018 but if you consider stretch of dominance it indicates that Rogue did better than Serral. I'm not sure if there was a HSC in late 2017 in which Rogue could have participated so bit of an unfair comparison, whereas IEM took place in 2019 and Serral didn't manage to win it as Rogue did. And I don't think they (WCS results) are irrelevant, but since koreans are prevented from participating, using these results to say Serral did better than others is utter bullshit because they can't do nothing to prevent him from winning these events. It's utter bullshit to pretend playing and losing hard tournaments is the same as not playing them(while, instead, playing and winning tournaments in your own area region cannot count because koreans aren't in). What stretch of dominance? Rogue lost frequently during that streak, Serral never did. it's utter bullshit to pretend farming ez tournaments is so much more impressive than playing and losing hard tournaments. If Serral doesn't play in hard tournaments (outside of occassional weekenders) he obviously doesn't lose as much. There can't even be discussion here, there is nothing to share. Ro8 at best in Code S is better than WCS victories? Senseless! Rogue 2017 season 2 beat Bunny, Patience, Dear, herO - lost to soO Rogue 2017 season 3 beat Keen, Gumiho, Classic, soO - lost to Stats You're right - beating Heromarine, Kelazhur, Lambo, Mana, TLO and Clem is much more impressive /s
Rogue also lost to Byun and TY in group stage
And the worst is I'm on board with you on that one RO8 GSL is better than a WCS win for me
But 4 WCS win in a row withouth dropping a set ? Come on
But it's fun that you compare road to victory
2017 rogue beat two foreigners and lost to one (so nobody for you) to go in top 8 then herO, TY and final soO (so worst than a foreigner)
2018 Serral didn't beat he trashed Zest, sOs, Dark, Rogue and Stats
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France12904 Posts
On April 05 2019 21:57 Philozovic wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2019 21:15 Charoisaur wrote:On April 05 2019 21:09 Xain0n wrote:On April 05 2019 21:01 Charoisaur wrote:On April 05 2019 20:56 Xain0n wrote:On April 05 2019 20:44 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 20:40 Xain0n wrote:On April 05 2019 20:23 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 20:13 Philozovic wrote:On April 05 2019 18:03 Poopi wrote:
[quote]
How is that amazing lol? All Kespa players managed to do well in sc2 so I don't see how it's amazing to do what everyone else was doing.
And Ryung was way better than SjoW and Adelscott wtf are you talking about. It's the same as Serral: people are way more impressed of his achievements (basically he did in 2018 what Rogue did in 2017, yet he has been far more hyped) because he is a foreigner so he was going against the odds ; so I don't see what surprises you in my line of thinking, it's the same as what people do with Serral :o.
Ryung won more money than Flash in sc2 and had better GSL results, so imo he is greater than Flash in sc2, especially given the fact that he has less potential. Sure honey, One is 21-2 in Offline bo3+ against Korean The other one is 38-18 One is 45-1 against non-korean The other one is 4-1 One won two tournament in a row and three in a year The other one won six in a row, seven in a year his worst placement was top 8 in a single elimination bracket The dude lost 3 series in a year always to the eventual winner of the tournament Basically the same, p <0.05 and shit GSL Super Tournament + BlizzCon + IEM Katowice vs GSL vs The World + BlizzCon + HSC Sorry I guess I was indeed mistaken, Rogue had a better stretch than Serral IEM Katowice took place in 2018, it's just not the same year. Philozovic's numbers of course mean nothing to you, right? If you don't want to take WCS into account you cannot conversely assume Serral lost tournaments left and right like Rogue did in 2017, so we can say Serral in four months(GSL vs the World+BlizzCon+HSC) achieved more than Rogue in one year(Super Tournament+BlizzCon). Quality of tournaments won does matter but the number of victories can't be casually disregarded; I said that many times and I'll repeat it today, WCS are obviously easier and less prestigious than Code S but no way they are as irrelevant as you guys seem to think. I didn't consider his numbers because when I had Rogue 2017 on aligulac it wasn't the same numbers as he posted, so without sources / ways to reproduce I don't see the point. The tournaments in a row thing is also cringe since it includes WCS in which koreans are banned / not the same level. So basically the same BS. IEM took place in 2018 but if you consider stretch of dominance it indicates that Rogue did better than Serral. I'm not sure if there was a HSC in late 2017 in which Rogue could have participated so bit of an unfair comparison, whereas IEM took place in 2019 and Serral didn't manage to win it as Rogue did. And I don't think they (WCS results) are irrelevant, but since koreans are prevented from participating, using these results to say Serral did better than others is utter bullshit because they can't do nothing to prevent him from winning these events. It's utter bullshit to pretend playing and losing hard tournaments is the same as not playing them(while, instead, playing and winning tournaments in your own area region cannot count because koreans aren't in). What stretch of dominance? Rogue lost frequently during that streak, Serral never did. it's utter bullshit to pretend farming ez tournaments is so much more impressive than playing and losing hard tournaments. If Serral doesn't play in hard tournaments (outside of occassional weekenders) he obviously doesn't lose as much. There can't even be discussion here, there is nothing to share. Ro8 at best in Code S is better than WCS victories? Senseless! Rogue 2017 season 2 beat Bunny, Patience, Dear, herO - lost to soO Rogue 2017 season 3 beat Keen, Gumiho, Classic, soO - lost to Stats You're right - beating Heromarine, Kelazhur, Lambo, Mana, TLO and Clem is much more impressive /s Rogue also lost to Byun and TY in group stage And the worst is I'm on board with you on that one RO8 GSL is better than a WCS win for me But 4 WCS win in a row withouth dropping a set ? Come on But it's fun that you compare road to victory 2017 rogue beat two foreigners and lost to one (so nobody for you) to go in top 8 then herO, TY and final soO (so worst than a foreigner) 2018 Serral didn't beat he trashed Zest, sOs, Dark, Rogue and Stats
Did you see the games? He mostly trashed Zest and sOs in a zerg favored meta, he didn't trash Stats considering he lost some maps. I had liquidbetted any of the zergs (Rogue/Serral) as BlizzCon winners in the potential match-ups we had because it was a free win in my mind at their skill level in ZvP against either of the protosses.
4 WCS in a row is impressive, especially the ones against good opponents in the finals (aka not Has/Mana), but you can't use it in comparisons because koreans can't compete in it.
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On April 05 2019 22:16 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2019 21:57 Philozovic wrote:On April 05 2019 21:15 Charoisaur wrote:On April 05 2019 21:09 Xain0n wrote:On April 05 2019 21:01 Charoisaur wrote:On April 05 2019 20:56 Xain0n wrote:On April 05 2019 20:44 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 20:40 Xain0n wrote:On April 05 2019 20:23 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 20:13 Philozovic wrote:
[quote]
Sure honey,
One is 21-2 in Offline bo3+ against Korean
The other one is 38-18
One is 45-1 against non-korean
The other one is 4-1
One won two tournament in a row and three in a year
The other one won six in a row, seven in a year his worst placement was top 8 in a single elimination bracket
The dude lost 3 series in a year always to the eventual winner of the tournament
Basically the same, p <0.05 and shit GSL Super Tournament + BlizzCon + IEM Katowice vs GSL vs The World + BlizzCon + HSC Sorry I guess I was indeed mistaken, Rogue had a better stretch than Serral IEM Katowice took place in 2018, it's just not the same year. Philozovic's numbers of course mean nothing to you, right? If you don't want to take WCS into account you cannot conversely assume Serral lost tournaments left and right like Rogue did in 2017, so we can say Serral in four months(GSL vs the World+BlizzCon+HSC) achieved more than Rogue in one year(Super Tournament+BlizzCon). Quality of tournaments won does matter but the number of victories can't be casually disregarded; I said that many times and I'll repeat it today, WCS are obviously easier and less prestigious than Code S but no way they are as irrelevant as you guys seem to think. I didn't consider his numbers because when I had Rogue 2017 on aligulac it wasn't the same numbers as he posted, so without sources / ways to reproduce I don't see the point. The tournaments in a row thing is also cringe since it includes WCS in which koreans are banned / not the same level. So basically the same BS. IEM took place in 2018 but if you consider stretch of dominance it indicates that Rogue did better than Serral. I'm not sure if there was a HSC in late 2017 in which Rogue could have participated so bit of an unfair comparison, whereas IEM took place in 2019 and Serral didn't manage to win it as Rogue did. And I don't think they (WCS results) are irrelevant, but since koreans are prevented from participating, using these results to say Serral did better than others is utter bullshit because they can't do nothing to prevent him from winning these events. It's utter bullshit to pretend playing and losing hard tournaments is the same as not playing them(while, instead, playing and winning tournaments in your own area region cannot count because koreans aren't in). What stretch of dominance? Rogue lost frequently during that streak, Serral never did. it's utter bullshit to pretend farming ez tournaments is so much more impressive than playing and losing hard tournaments. If Serral doesn't play in hard tournaments (outside of occassional weekenders) he obviously doesn't lose as much. There can't even be discussion here, there is nothing to share. Ro8 at best in Code S is better than WCS victories? Senseless! Rogue 2017 season 2 beat Bunny, Patience, Dear, herO - lost to soO Rogue 2017 season 3 beat Keen, Gumiho, Classic, soO - lost to Stats You're right - beating Heromarine, Kelazhur, Lambo, Mana, TLO and Clem is much more impressive /s Rogue also lost to Byun and TY in group stage And the worst is I'm on board with you on that one RO8 GSL is better than a WCS win for me But 4 WCS win in a row withouth dropping a set ? Come on But it's fun that you compare road to victory 2017 rogue beat two foreigners and lost to one (so nobody for you) to go in top 8 then herO, TY and final soO (so worst than a foreigner) 2018 Serral didn't beat he trashed Zest, sOs, Dark, Rogue and Stats Did you see the games? He mostly trashed Zest and sOs in a zerg favored meta, he didn't trash Stats considering he lost some maps. I had liquidbetted any of the zergs (Rogue/Serral) as BlizzCon winners in the potential match-ups we had because it was a free win in my mind at their skill level in ZvP against either of the protosses. 4 WCS in a row is impressive, especially the ones against good opponents in the finals (aka not Has/Mana), but you can't use it in comparisons because koreans can't compete in it.
He played 3 games seriously against Stats then at 3-0 he did some stupid shit game 4 and 5 and game 6 when everything was on at no point did Stat had any chance of winning he crushed Stats air force like it was nothing. If you tell me that during the final at some point you though "ok Stats can win this series" then clearly we did not see the same.
In ZvZ he made Dark and rogue look waaaayyyy worst than Reynor
But i'm pretty sure we are off topic given the fact that it was never about Rogue vs Serral
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Myungsik's top two? Did I forget something?
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On April 05 2019 23:16 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
Myungsik's top two? Did I forget something?
I don't get that either. He was just sort of ok at cheesing in 2015-2016. DIMAGA did a lot more than Myungsik ever did.
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On April 06 2019 00:21 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2019 23:16 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
Myungsik's top two? Did I forget something? I don't get that either. He was just sort of ok at cheesing in 2015-2016. DIMAGA did a lot more than Myungsik ever did.
Pretty sure it's (1) recency, and (2) myungsik is korean, therefore by default better than any foreigner. Just look at the hoops people are jumping through to justify how Serral's 2018 was not even as good as Rogue's 2017 (let alone Maru's 2018). Winning Dreamhack is meaningless, because remember that one time myungsik cheesed his way to a GSL semifinal? THAT is a real achievement!
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Canada8989 Posts
On April 06 2019 00:32 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2019 00:21 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 05 2019 23:16 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
Myungsik's top two? Did I forget something? I don't get that either. He was just sort of ok at cheesing in 2015-2016. DIMAGA did a lot more than Myungsik ever did. Pretty sure it's (1) recency, and (2) myungsik is korean, therefore by default better than any foreigner. Just look at the hoops people are jumping through to justify how Serral's 2018 was not even as good as Rogue's 2017 (let alone Maru's 2018). Winning Dreamhack is meaningless, because remember that one time myungsik cheesed his way to a GSL semifinal? THAT is a real achievement!
On top of the recency, I think DIMAGA (and some other) suffer from the fact that he's still active, personnaly as someone who started watching sc2 late 2013 DIMAGA as always been a low tier european pro who bomb out early in qualifier and has ok but not great results in small european online cup. If I look at his liquipedia page I can see that he has great results but it's a bit like if someone told you SpaceMarine or Art were in the world elite in 2011, just fells weird.
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On April 06 2019 00:21 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2019 23:16 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
Myungsik's top two? Did I forget something? I don't get that either. He was just sort of ok at cheesing in 2015-2016. DIMAGA did a lot more than Myungsik ever did.
I mean, forget results, there was a period where games against DIMAGA just involved building thicker and thicker wall-ins and DIMAGA responding by adding ever more Banelings to his Baneling busts. That kind of hilarity is at the very least memorable.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 05 2019 21:01 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2019 20:56 Xain0n wrote:On April 05 2019 20:44 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 20:40 Xain0n wrote:On April 05 2019 20:23 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 20:13 Philozovic wrote:On April 05 2019 18:03 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 16:32 Shuffleblade wrote:On April 05 2019 06:00 Poopi wrote:
The fact that he was so mediocre compared to his BW success should exclude him from anything GOAT related imo.
It’s super cool to win an IEM and stuff if you were a random BW pro, but when you were the GOAT of BW having as little success Flash had in sc2 is really mediocre, he didn’t live up to his potential, whereas Ryung was a random who achieved a lot of solid top 4, which is IMO a greater achievement.
Erm wat. So the greatest players aren't the greatest players, it is the most impressive underdog players? TY is not at all a great player because he was always hyped to be great and became great and then he isn't really great? Ryung was a random scrub that did something impressive for his level and therefore he is one of the greatest ever? Adelscott and Sjow more GOAT than TY? Sorry I'm just baffled by your line of thinking here, Sc2 is a radically different game from SC1 I think that Flash managed to do as much as he did in SC2 is an amazing achivement. To be as good as he was in two totally different games (not different genres but different games) is amazing to me. How is that amazing lol? All Kespa players managed to do well in sc2 so I don't see how it's amazing to do what everyone else was doing. And Ryung was way better than SjoW and Adelscott wtf are you talking about. It's the same as Serral: people are way more impressed of his achievements (basically he did in 2018 what Rogue did in 2017, yet he has been far more hyped) because he is a foreigner so he was going against the odds ; so I don't see what surprises you in my line of thinking, it's the same as what people do with Serral :o. Ryung won more money than Flash in sc2 and had better GSL results, so imo he is greater than Flash in sc2, especially given the fact that he has less potential. Sure honey, One is 21-2 in Offline bo3+ against Korean The other one is 38-18 One is 45-1 against non-korean The other one is 4-1 One won two tournament in a row and three in a year The other one won six in a row, seven in a year his worst placement was top 8 in a single elimination bracket The dude lost 3 series in a year always to the eventual winner of the tournament Basically the same, p <0.05 and shit GSL Super Tournament + BlizzCon + IEM Katowice vs GSL vs The World + BlizzCon + HSC Sorry I guess I was indeed mistaken, Rogue had a better stretch than Serral IEM Katowice took place in 2018, it's just not the same year. Philozovic's numbers of course mean nothing to you, right? If you don't want to take WCS into account you cannot conversely assume Serral lost tournaments left and right like Rogue did in 2017, so we can say Serral in four months(GSL vs the World+BlizzCon+HSC) achieved more than Rogue in one year(Super Tournament+BlizzCon). Quality of tournaments won does matter but the number of victories can't be casually disregarded; I said that many times and I'll repeat it today, WCS are obviously easier and less prestigious than Code S but no way they are as irrelevant as you guys seem to think. I didn't consider his numbers because when I had Rogue 2017 on aligulac it wasn't the same numbers as he posted, so without sources / ways to reproduce I don't see the point. The tournaments in a row thing is also cringe since it includes WCS in which koreans are banned / not the same level. So basically the same BS. IEM took place in 2018 but if you consider stretch of dominance it indicates that Rogue did better than Serral. I'm not sure if there was a HSC in late 2017 in which Rogue could have participated so bit of an unfair comparison, whereas IEM took place in 2019 and Serral didn't manage to win it as Rogue did. And I don't think they (WCS results) are irrelevant, but since koreans are prevented from participating, using these results to say Serral did better than others is utter bullshit because they can't do nothing to prevent him from winning these events. It's utter bullshit to pretend playing and losing hard tournaments is the same as not playing them(while, instead, playing and winning tournaments in your own area region cannot count because koreans aren't in). What stretch of dominance? Rogue lost frequently during that streak, Serral never did. it's utter bullshit to pretend farming ez tournaments is so much more impressive than playing and losing hard tournaments. If Serral doesn't play in hard tournaments (outside of occassional weekenders) he obviously doesn't lose as much.
THIS. SO MUCH FUCKING THIS.
But hey, you 're arguing with a fanboy 
On April 05 2019 21:09 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2019 21:01 Charoisaur wrote:On April 05 2019 20:56 Xain0n wrote:On April 05 2019 20:44 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 20:40 Xain0n wrote:On April 05 2019 20:23 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 20:13 Philozovic wrote:On April 05 2019 18:03 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 16:32 Shuffleblade wrote:On April 05 2019 06:00 Poopi wrote:
The fact that he was so mediocre compared to his BW success should exclude him from anything GOAT related imo.
It’s super cool to win an IEM and stuff if you were a random BW pro, but when you were the GOAT of BW having as little success Flash had in sc2 is really mediocre, he didn’t live up to his potential, whereas Ryung was a random who achieved a lot of solid top 4, which is IMO a greater achievement.
Erm wat. So the greatest players aren't the greatest players, it is the most impressive underdog players? TY is not at all a great player because he was always hyped to be great and became great and then he isn't really great? Ryung was a random scrub that did something impressive for his level and therefore he is one of the greatest ever? Adelscott and Sjow more GOAT than TY? Sorry I'm just baffled by your line of thinking here, Sc2 is a radically different game from SC1 I think that Flash managed to do as much as he did in SC2 is an amazing achivement. To be as good as he was in two totally different games (not different genres but different games) is amazing to me. How is that amazing lol? All Kespa players managed to do well in sc2 so I don't see how it's amazing to do what everyone else was doing. And Ryung was way better than SjoW and Adelscott wtf are you talking about. It's the same as Serral: people are way more impressed of his achievements (basically he did in 2018 what Rogue did in 2017, yet he has been far more hyped) because he is a foreigner so he was going against the odds ; so I don't see what surprises you in my line of thinking, it's the same as what people do with Serral :o. Ryung won more money than Flash in sc2 and had better GSL results, so imo he is greater than Flash in sc2, especially given the fact that he has less potential. Sure honey, One is 21-2 in Offline bo3+ against Korean The other one is 38-18 One is 45-1 against non-korean The other one is 4-1 One won two tournament in a row and three in a year The other one won six in a row, seven in a year his worst placement was top 8 in a single elimination bracket The dude lost 3 series in a year always to the eventual winner of the tournament Basically the same, p <0.05 and shit GSL Super Tournament + BlizzCon + IEM Katowice vs GSL vs The World + BlizzCon + HSC Sorry I guess I was indeed mistaken, Rogue had a better stretch than Serral IEM Katowice took place in 2018, it's just not the same year. Philozovic's numbers of course mean nothing to you, right? If you don't want to take WCS into account you cannot conversely assume Serral lost tournaments left and right like Rogue did in 2017, so we can say Serral in four months(GSL vs the World+BlizzCon+HSC) achieved more than Rogue in one year(Super Tournament+BlizzCon). Quality of tournaments won does matter but the number of victories can't be casually disregarded; I said that many times and I'll repeat it today, WCS are obviously easier and less prestigious than Code S but no way they are as irrelevant as you guys seem to think. I didn't consider his numbers because when I had Rogue 2017 on aligulac it wasn't the same numbers as he posted, so without sources / ways to reproduce I don't see the point. The tournaments in a row thing is also cringe since it includes WCS in which koreans are banned / not the same level. So basically the same BS. IEM took place in 2018 but if you consider stretch of dominance it indicates that Rogue did better than Serral. I'm not sure if there was a HSC in late 2017 in which Rogue could have participated so bit of an unfair comparison, whereas IEM took place in 2019 and Serral didn't manage to win it as Rogue did. And I don't think they (WCS results) are irrelevant, but since koreans are prevented from participating, using these results to say Serral did better than others is utter bullshit because they can't do nothing to prevent him from winning these events. It's utter bullshit to pretend playing and losing hard tournaments is the same as not playing them(while, instead, playing and winning tournaments in your own area region cannot count because koreans aren't in). What stretch of dominance? Rogue lost frequently during that streak, Serral never did. it's utter bullshit to pretend farming ez tournaments is so much more impressive than playing and losing hard tournaments. If Serral doesn't play in hard tournaments (outside of occassional weekenders) he obviously doesn't lose as much. There can't even be discussion here, there is nothing to share. Ro8 at best in Code S is better than WCS victories? Senseless!
OK, let's get serious. Where, quality wise, is WCS finals at GSL in your opinion? Considering Scarlett got out of RO16 while she's waiting at the finals of WCS Winter America... it doesn't look good. Neeb got to RO4 the last year, but the rest? At least that RO8?
So how would you rank WCS finals in GSL? I think that RO12 would be sufficient, if both foreigners are in good form ro8/4, but that's a HUGE if. That's my view.
Realistically speaking SErral is top4, the rest of foreigners can go towards the top in their good form(Scarlett, Major, Neeb). But others than Serral are not even at RO8 Code S quality, how can you say WCS finals ARE at or better than RO8 of Code S? 
Edit> Yes, that's why Serral was dominating, if you're in a good form, Zerg favored meta/maps and you're a top tier player you will be dominating a competition that's a level bellow you. What. A. Surprise.
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Zerg favored meta and maps and no one else but Serral(Reynor in WCS, but it doesn't count I guess?) even came close to winning in six months, a true paradox!
Not only that's wrong, the equation being better=winning is a complete joke as the whole history of Starcraft, with few notable exception, points in the opposite direction!
You are basically saying every ro8 Code S player would win WCS with ease(not including Serral himself, obviously)? I disagree, I think it's closer to reaching ro4 and, most importantly, winning is always way harder than merely being capable of; ask soO, ask Dark! No victory is granted, disregarding that is foolishness.
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Canada8989 Posts
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Canada8989 Posts
New groups!
You guys remember Sound? Ya me neither, here he is in group 12 tho, joined by Drogo, jjackjji and the boss toss.
Group 13 has fan favourites toss Has and Parting, with RorO and ThorZain.
The man with a thousand more recorded win than anyone in history (and about 4 thousand more games, yes you read that well) in Bly is in a tough group that include maybe the greatest patchzerg ever and finally in group 29 we have 3 of the early WOL koreans players including a world champ and a Frenchman.
Theses polls are closed
Group 12
Poll: Who are the greatest players?You must be logged in to vote in this poll. ☐ MC & jjakji
☐ MC & Sound
☐ MC & PtitDrogo
☐ jjakji & Sound
☐ jjakji & PtitDrogo
☐ Sound & PtitDrogo
Group 13
Poll: Who are the greatest players?You must be logged in to vote in this poll. ☐ Parting & ThorZaIN
☐ Parting & RorO
☐ Parting & Has
☐ ThorZaIN & RorO
☐ ThorZaIN & Has
☐ RorO & Has
Group 28
Poll: Who are the greatest players?You must be logged in to vote in this poll. ☐ Rogue & Dear
☐ Rogue & Bly
☐ Rogue & YongHwa
☐ Dear & Bly
☐ Dear & YongHwa
☐ Bly & YongHwa
Group 29
Poll: Who are the greatest players?You must be logged in to vote in this poll. ☐ ByuN & FruitDealer
☐ ByuN & TOP
☐ ByuN & MarineLorD
☐ FruitDealer & TOP
☐ FruitDealer & MarineLorD
☐ Top & MarineLorD
Theses polls are closed
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People who don't vote for RorO are factually wrong btw.
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Korean Zerg of the year 2013. BTFO haters.
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On April 07 2019 17:57 Elentos wrote:
People who don't vote for RorO are factually wrong btw.
Not true. Thorzain is the goat. TSL 3 was the greatest tournament of all time, and Thorzain won it.
Unless you meant RorO > Parting?
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EPT
