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On April 05 2019 06:00 Poopi wrote:
The fact that he was so mediocre compared to his BW success should exclude him from anything GOAT related imo.
It’s super cool to win an IEM and stuff if you were a random BW pro, but when you were the GOAT of BW having as little success Flash had in sc2 is really mediocre, he didn’t live up to his potential, whereas Ryung was a random who achieved a lot of solid top 4, which is IMO a greater achievement.
It's not like Flash is gonna win this contest, anyway. Achievements should be measured objectively, not relatively to expectations or past successes(that's also why Boxer winning over Hydra is not appropriate, to me) and I think Flash had better results than Ryung overall.
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On April 05 2019 06:00 Poopi wrote:
The fact that he was so mediocre compared to his BW success should exclude him from anything GOAT related imo.
It’s super cool to win an IEM and stuff if you were a random BW pro, but when you were the GOAT of BW having as little success Flash had in sc2 is really mediocre, he didn’t live up to his potential, whereas Ryung was a random who achieved a lot of solid top 4, which is IMO a greater achievement.
Erm wat. So the greatest players aren't the greatest players, it is the most impressive underdog players? TY is not at all a great player because he was always hyped to be great and became great and then he isn't really great?
Ryung was a random scrub that did something impressive for his level and therefore he is one of the greatest ever? Adelscott and Sjow more GOAT than TY?
Sorry I'm just baffled by your line of thinking here, Sc2 is a radically different game from SC1 I think that Flash managed to do as much as he did in SC2 is an amazing achivement. To be as good as he was in two totally different games (not different genres but different games) is amazing to me.
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IMO, I think Flash did reasonably well in SC2 but was in no way "great" in SC2. However, compared to Ryung, I think he deserves to be voted ahead.
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France12904 Posts
On April 05 2019 16:32 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2019 06:00 Poopi wrote:
The fact that he was so mediocre compared to his BW success should exclude him from anything GOAT related imo.
It’s super cool to win an IEM and stuff if you were a random BW pro, but when you were the GOAT of BW having as little success Flash had in sc2 is really mediocre, he didn’t live up to his potential, whereas Ryung was a random who achieved a lot of solid top 4, which is IMO a greater achievement.
Erm wat. So the greatest players aren't the greatest players, it is the most impressive underdog players? TY is not at all a great player because he was always hyped to be great and became great and then he isn't really great? Ryung was a random scrub that did something impressive for his level and therefore he is one of the greatest ever? Adelscott and Sjow more GOAT than TY? Sorry I'm just baffled by your line of thinking here, Sc2 is a radically different game from SC1 I think that Flash managed to do as much as he did in SC2 is an amazing achivement. To be as good as he was in two totally different games (not different genres but different games) is amazing to me.
How is that amazing lol? All Kespa players managed to do well in sc2 so I don't see how it's amazing to do what everyone else was doing.
And Ryung was way better than SjoW and Adelscott wtf are you talking about. It's the same as Serral: people are way more impressed of his achievements (basically he did in 2018 what Rogue did in 2017, yet he has been far more hyped) because he is a foreigner so he was going against the odds ; so I don't see what surprises you in my line of thinking, it's the same as what people do with Serral :o.
Ryung won more money than Flash in sc2 and had better GSL results, so imo he is greater than Flash in sc2, especially given the fact that he has less potential.
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On April 05 2019 18:03 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2019 16:32 Shuffleblade wrote:On April 05 2019 06:00 Poopi wrote:
The fact that he was so mediocre compared to his BW success should exclude him from anything GOAT related imo.
It’s super cool to win an IEM and stuff if you were a random BW pro, but when you were the GOAT of BW having as little success Flash had in sc2 is really mediocre, he didn’t live up to his potential, whereas Ryung was a random who achieved a lot of solid top 4, which is IMO a greater achievement.
Erm wat. So the greatest players aren't the greatest players, it is the most impressive underdog players? TY is not at all a great player because he was always hyped to be great and became great and then he isn't really great? Ryung was a random scrub that did something impressive for his level and therefore he is one of the greatest ever? Adelscott and Sjow more GOAT than TY? Sorry I'm just baffled by your line of thinking here, Sc2 is a radically different game from SC1 I think that Flash managed to do as much as he did in SC2 is an amazing achivement. To be as good as he was in two totally different games (not different genres but different games) is amazing to me. How is that amazing lol? All Kespa players managed to do well in sc2 so I don't see how it's amazing to do what everyone else was doing. And Ryung was way better than SjoW and Adelscott wtf are you talking about. It's the same as Serral: people are way more impressed of his achievements (basically he did in 2018 what Rogue did in 2017, yet he has been far more hyped) because he is a foreigner so he was going against the odds ; so I don't see what surprises you in my line of thinking, it's the same as what people do with Serral :o. Ryung won more money than Flash in sc2 and had better GSL results, so imo he is greater than Flash in sc2, especially given the fact that he has less potential.
Ryung played way more years than Flash, that's why he earned 12k more; nothing else.
Also, the idea that Rogue in 2017 made what Serral did in 2018 is simply wrong xd. How many tournaments did Rogue win? How many did he lose? How did he place in the tournaments he lost?
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On April 05 2019 18:03 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2019 16:32 Shuffleblade wrote:On April 05 2019 06:00 Poopi wrote:
The fact that he was so mediocre compared to his BW success should exclude him from anything GOAT related imo.
It’s super cool to win an IEM and stuff if you were a random BW pro, but when you were the GOAT of BW having as little success Flash had in sc2 is really mediocre, he didn’t live up to his potential, whereas Ryung was a random who achieved a lot of solid top 4, which is IMO a greater achievement.
Erm wat. So the greatest players aren't the greatest players, it is the most impressive underdog players? TY is not at all a great player because he was always hyped to be great and became great and then he isn't really great? Ryung was a random scrub that did something impressive for his level and therefore he is one of the greatest ever? Adelscott and Sjow more GOAT than TY? Sorry I'm just baffled by your line of thinking here, Sc2 is a radically different game from SC1 I think that Flash managed to do as much as he did in SC2 is an amazing achivement. To be as good as he was in two totally different games (not different genres but different games) is amazing to me. How is that amazing lol? All Kespa players managed to do well in sc2 so I don't see how it's amazing to do what everyone else was doing. And Ryung was way better than SjoW and Adelscott wtf are you talking about. It's the same as Serral: people are way more impressed of his achievements (basically he did in 2018 what Rogue did in 2017, yet he has been far more hyped) because he is a foreigner so he was going against the odds ; so I don't see what surprises you in my line of thinking, it's the same as what people do with Serral :o. Ryung won more money than Flash in sc2 and had better GSL results, so imo he is greater than Flash in sc2, especially given the fact that he has less potential.
-_-
Yeah, definitely we all know the great players Crazy, Argo, Puzzle, Miso, BeSt, Paralyze, Jangbi, Flying, Free, Light, ZerO, Bong, Last and Hyvaa. They have all won individual league premier tournaments and multiple silver medals, for sure. They have been at least as successful as Flash in SC2 individual leagues!
Or not, in this you are wrong, its fine if you disagree with me but don't flat out make up lies to try and justify your opinion.
So you think Serral has a greater claim to GOAT just because he is a foreigner compared to if he would have been a korean. I disagree and I also disagree about Flash and thats fine, we are allowed to have different opinions on what defines being "great" I was just a bit baffled by yours. Potential is a relative term there is no way to measure Flashs "potential" or Ryungs, it just a word describing what potential you personally saw in them that doesn't necessarily mean he had that poential or that others saw the same potential you did. I just don't think potential has anything to do with greatness, but yeah I know we disagree on that.
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On April 05 2019 19:55 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2019 18:03 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 16:32 Shuffleblade wrote:On April 05 2019 06:00 Poopi wrote:
The fact that he was so mediocre compared to his BW success should exclude him from anything GOAT related imo.
It’s super cool to win an IEM and stuff if you were a random BW pro, but when you were the GOAT of BW having as little success Flash had in sc2 is really mediocre, he didn’t live up to his potential, whereas Ryung was a random who achieved a lot of solid top 4, which is IMO a greater achievement.
Erm wat. So the greatest players aren't the greatest players, it is the most impressive underdog players? TY is not at all a great player because he was always hyped to be great and became great and then he isn't really great? Ryung was a random scrub that did something impressive for his level and therefore he is one of the greatest ever? Adelscott and Sjow more GOAT than TY? Sorry I'm just baffled by your line of thinking here, Sc2 is a radically different game from SC1 I think that Flash managed to do as much as he did in SC2 is an amazing achivement. To be as good as he was in two totally different games (not different genres but different games) is amazing to me. How is that amazing lol? All Kespa players managed to do well in sc2 so I don't see how it's amazing to do what everyone else was doing. And Ryung was way better than SjoW and Adelscott wtf are you talking about. It's the same as Serral: people are way more impressed of his achievements (basically he did in 2018 what Rogue did in 2017, yet he has been far more hyped) because he is a foreigner so he was going against the odds ; so I don't see what surprises you in my line of thinking, it's the same as what people do with Serral :o. Ryung won more money than Flash in sc2 and had better GSL results, so imo he is greater than Flash in sc2, especially given the fact that he has less potential. -_- Yeah, definitely we all know the great players Crazy, Argo, Puzzle, Miso, BeSt, Paralyze, Jangbi, Flying, Free, Light, ZerO, Bong, Last and Hyvaa. They have all won individual league premier tournaments and multiple silver medals, for sure. They have been at least as successful as Flash in SC2 individual leagues! Or not, in this you are wrong, its fine if you disagree with me but don't flat out make up lies to try and justify your opinion. So you think Serral has a greater claim to GOAT just because he is a foreigner compared to if he would have been a korean. I disagree and I also disagree about Flash and thats fine, we are allowed to have different opinions on what defines being "great" I was just a bit baffled by yours. Potential is a relative term there is no way to measure Flashs "potential" or Ryungs, it just a word describing what potential you personally saw in them that doesn't necessarily mean he had that poential or that others saw the same potential you did. I just don't think potential has anything to do with greatness, but yeah I know we disagree on that.
None of them had anywhere near the success as Flash did in BW, and unsurprisingly also not in SC2 (in fact, I didn't even know most of those even got into SC2 in any serious way).
You could make a case for Fantasy sucking at SC2 while he was good at BW, but other than that? Kespa truly brought some great players over. Stats and Zest did far better than Flash, even back then, although Flash was arguably a greater component in their Proleague success. Then there's Innovation, TY, Parting, sOs, Soulkey, Rain, herO, Trap and quite a few other players who came over in the Kespa move from (limited) success in BW to do far better at SC2 than Flash did.
So yes, potential and expectations do play into this. If you are heralded as God in BW, your peers have moved over to SC2 and have completely toppled the hierarchy, then not showing even a semblance of your BW total dominance is abject failure. And no, abject failure is not greatness.
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France12904 Posts
On April 05 2019 19:00 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2019 18:03 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 16:32 Shuffleblade wrote:On April 05 2019 06:00 Poopi wrote:
The fact that he was so mediocre compared to his BW success should exclude him from anything GOAT related imo.
It’s super cool to win an IEM and stuff if you were a random BW pro, but when you were the GOAT of BW having as little success Flash had in sc2 is really mediocre, he didn’t live up to his potential, whereas Ryung was a random who achieved a lot of solid top 4, which is IMO a greater achievement.
Erm wat. So the greatest players aren't the greatest players, it is the most impressive underdog players? TY is not at all a great player because he was always hyped to be great and became great and then he isn't really great? Ryung was a random scrub that did something impressive for his level and therefore he is one of the greatest ever? Adelscott and Sjow more GOAT than TY? Sorry I'm just baffled by your line of thinking here, Sc2 is a radically different game from SC1 I think that Flash managed to do as much as he did in SC2 is an amazing achivement. To be as good as he was in two totally different games (not different genres but different games) is amazing to me. How is that amazing lol? All Kespa players managed to do well in sc2 so I don't see how it's amazing to do what everyone else was doing. And Ryung was way better than SjoW and Adelscott wtf are you talking about. It's the same as Serral: people are way more impressed of his achievements (basically he did in 2018 what Rogue did in 2017, yet he has been far more hyped) because he is a foreigner so he was going against the odds ; so I don't see what surprises you in my line of thinking, it's the same as what people do with Serral :o. Ryung won more money than Flash in sc2 and had better GSL results, so imo he is greater than Flash in sc2, especially given the fact that he has less potential. Ryung played way more years than Flash, that's why he earned 12k more; nothing else. Also, the idea that Rogue in 2017 made what Serral did in 2018 is simply wrong xd. How many tournaments did Rogue win? How many did he lose? How did he place in the tournaments he lost?
Rogue won a GSL Super Tournament and then BlizzCon, Serral won GSL vs The World and then BlizzCon.
Let's not talk about WCS wins since Koreans can't participate in that (and the level of the competition is lower than events with KR participation) so it would be a pointless comparison. And I think Serral is greater than Rogue, part of it because he is a foreigner so it was harder to succeed at such an high level, part because he is still young and can develop even further, part because I think his sheer potential (be it mechanical or decision making wise) is better. But the foreigner factor counts. That's why imo Stephano should have been in the GOAT top 15 from Stuchiu, not just the foreigner GOAT thing.
And about Ryung, he still placed higher in GSL, at two different eras (in WoL and in LotV, that's impressive). You might value Flash IEM win and stuff higher, but let's be real and try a game: imagine a relatively unknown BW player named JohnDoe who would have had exactly the sc2 career Flash had. Would you vote for him in this poll instead of Ryung?
Or your opinion was that Flash was greater than Ryung influenced by the fact that Flash he was the most dominant BW player ever, with decent sc2 results?
@Shuffleblade: a lot of Kespa-BW players were successful in sc2: Roro, soO, Stats, Zest, TY, Flash, Jaedong, Effort, INnovation, Rain, etc. I won't cite them all. The fact is that A LOT (maybe not all of them, but it depends what you consider successful) of Kespa-BW players did well in sc2. It's not the same game, but the discipline they acquired and the ability to quickly acquire good RTS mechanics helped them tremendously so I don't consider it especially amazing from Flash.
But yeah we agree to disagree, it's the point of this contest after all.
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On April 05 2019 19:00 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2019 18:03 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 16:32 Shuffleblade wrote:On April 05 2019 06:00 Poopi wrote:
The fact that he was so mediocre compared to his BW success should exclude him from anything GOAT related imo.
It’s super cool to win an IEM and stuff if you were a random BW pro, but when you were the GOAT of BW having as little success Flash had in sc2 is really mediocre, he didn’t live up to his potential, whereas Ryung was a random who achieved a lot of solid top 4, which is IMO a greater achievement.
Erm wat. So the greatest players aren't the greatest players, it is the most impressive underdog players? TY is not at all a great player because he was always hyped to be great and became great and then he isn't really great? Ryung was a random scrub that did something impressive for his level and therefore he is one of the greatest ever? Adelscott and Sjow more GOAT than TY? Sorry I'm just baffled by your line of thinking here, Sc2 is a radically different game from SC1 I think that Flash managed to do as much as he did in SC2 is an amazing achivement. To be as good as he was in two totally different games (not different genres but different games) is amazing to me. How is that amazing lol? All Kespa players managed to do well in sc2 so I don't see how it's amazing to do what everyone else was doing. And Ryung was way better than SjoW and Adelscott wtf are you talking about. It's the same as Serral: people are way more impressed of his achievements (basically he did in 2018 what Rogue did in 2017, yet he has been far more hyped) because he is a foreigner so he was going against the odds ; so I don't see what surprises you in my line of thinking, it's the same as what people do with Serral :o. Ryung won more money than Flash in sc2 and had better GSL results, so imo he is greater than Flash in sc2, especially given the fact that he has less potential. Ryung played way more years than Flash, that's why he earned 12k more; nothing else. Also, the idea that Rogue in 2017 made what Serral did in 2018 is simply wrong xd. How many tournaments did Rogue win? How many did he lose? How did he place in the tournaments he lost?
So the player who wins more tournaments (disregarding quality of the tournament) is the more accomplished one? TaeJa=GOAT heard it here first.
Rogue won 3 tier 1 tournaments in 2017, Serral won 2 tier 1 tournaments in 2018.
As much as you want to believe it - winning WCS isn't as impressive as winning a tournament stacked with top koreans.
imagine a relatively unknown BW player named JohnDoe who would have had exactly the sc2 career Flash had. Would you vote for him in this poll instead of Ryung?
absolutely
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On April 05 2019 18:03 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2019 16:32 Shuffleblade wrote:On April 05 2019 06:00 Poopi wrote:
The fact that he was so mediocre compared to his BW success should exclude him from anything GOAT related imo.
It’s super cool to win an IEM and stuff if you were a random BW pro, but when you were the GOAT of BW having as little success Flash had in sc2 is really mediocre, he didn’t live up to his potential, whereas Ryung was a random who achieved a lot of solid top 4, which is IMO a greater achievement.
Erm wat. So the greatest players aren't the greatest players, it is the most impressive underdog players? TY is not at all a great player because he was always hyped to be great and became great and then he isn't really great? Ryung was a random scrub that did something impressive for his level and therefore he is one of the greatest ever? Adelscott and Sjow more GOAT than TY? Sorry I'm just baffled by your line of thinking here, Sc2 is a radically different game from SC1 I think that Flash managed to do as much as he did in SC2 is an amazing achivement. To be as good as he was in two totally different games (not different genres but different games) is amazing to me. How is that amazing lol? All Kespa players managed to do well in sc2 so I don't see how it's amazing to do what everyone else was doing. And Ryung was way better than SjoW and Adelscott wtf are you talking about. It's the same as Serral: people are way more impressed of his achievements (basically he did in 2018 what Rogue did in 2017, yet he has been far more hyped) because he is a foreigner so he was going against the odds ; so I don't see what surprises you in my line of thinking, it's the same as what people do with Serral :o. Ryung won more money than Flash in sc2 and had better GSL results, so imo he is greater than Flash in sc2, especially given the fact that he has less potential.
Sure honey,
One is 21-2 in Offline bo3+ against Korean
The other one is 38-18
One is 45-1 against non-korean
The other one is 4-1
One won two tournament in a row and three in a year
The other one won six in a row, seven in a year his worst placement was top 8 in a single elimination bracket
The dude lost 3 series in a year always to the eventual winner of the tournament
Basically the same, p <0.05 and shit
On April 05 2019 20:09 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2019 19:55 Shuffleblade wrote:On April 05 2019 18:03 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 16:32 Shuffleblade wrote:On April 05 2019 06:00 Poopi wrote:
The fact that he was so mediocre compared to his BW success should exclude him from anything GOAT related imo.
It’s super cool to win an IEM and stuff if you were a random BW pro, but when you were the GOAT of BW having as little success Flash had in sc2 is really mediocre, he didn’t live up to his potential, whereas Ryung was a random who achieved a lot of solid top 4, which is IMO a greater achievement.
Erm wat. So the greatest players aren't the greatest players, it is the most impressive underdog players? TY is not at all a great player because he was always hyped to be great and became great and then he isn't really great? Ryung was a random scrub that did something impressive for his level and therefore he is one of the greatest ever? Adelscott and Sjow more GOAT than TY? Sorry I'm just baffled by your line of thinking here, Sc2 is a radically different game from SC1 I think that Flash managed to do as much as he did in SC2 is an amazing achivement. To be as good as he was in two totally different games (not different genres but different games) is amazing to me. How is that amazing lol? All Kespa players managed to do well in sc2 so I don't see how it's amazing to do what everyone else was doing. And Ryung was way better than SjoW and Adelscott wtf are you talking about. It's the same as Serral: people are way more impressed of his achievements (basically he did in 2018 what Rogue did in 2017, yet he has been far more hyped) because he is a foreigner so he was going against the odds ; so I don't see what surprises you in my line of thinking, it's the same as what people do with Serral :o. Ryung won more money than Flash in sc2 and had better GSL results, so imo he is greater than Flash in sc2, especially given the fact that he has less potential. -_- Yeah, definitely we all know the great players Crazy, Argo, Puzzle, Miso, BeSt, Paralyze, Jangbi, Flying, Free, Light, ZerO, Bong, Last and Hyvaa. They have all won individual league premier tournaments and multiple silver medals, for sure. They have been at least as successful as Flash in SC2 individual leagues! Or not, in this you are wrong, its fine if you disagree with me but don't flat out make up lies to try and justify your opinion. So you think Serral has a greater claim to GOAT just because he is a foreigner compared to if he would have been a korean. I disagree and I also disagree about Flash and thats fine, we are allowed to have different opinions on what defines being "great" I was just a bit baffled by yours. Potential is a relative term there is no way to measure Flashs "potential" or Ryungs, it just a word describing what potential you personally saw in them that doesn't necessarily mean he had that poential or that others saw the same potential you did. I just don't think potential has anything to do with greatness, but yeah I know we disagree on that. None of them had anywhere near the success as Flash did in BW, and unsurprisingly also not in SC2 (in fact, I didn't even know most of those even got into SC2 in any serious way). You could make a case for Fantasy sucking at SC2 while he was good at BW, but other than that? Kespa truly brought some great players over. Stats and Zest did far better than Flash, even back then, although Flash was arguably a greater component in their Proleague success. Then there's Innovation, TY, Parting, sOs, Soulkey, Rain, herO, Trap and quite a few other players who came over in the Kespa move from (limited) success in BW to do far better at SC2 than Flash did. So yes, potential and expectations do play into this. If you are heralded as God in BW, your peers have moved over to SC2 and have completely toppled the hierarchy, then not showing even a semblance of your BW total dominance is abject failure. And no, abject failure is not greatness.
Sure JangBi was shit at BW that is a known fact, Effort, Stork, Bisu, Calm were terrible as well
Or maybe being a BW legend doesn't make you good at SC2 ?
But the fact that you list Parting who started as STARTALE parting in 2011 actually indicated the fact that you don't know jack
Also nice strawman argument, noone ever said that Flash was better than Soulkey/Inno/Zest whatever just that he accomplished wayyyy more than Ryung who first didn't accomplished anything in BW after beeing draft in 2005 (like a lot of other future SC2 player Byun, Puzzle, Squirtle were in the same draft) then made 4 premier top 4 in 8 years (and I counted code A) ....
I guess he did better in SC2 than in BW he must be great then
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France12904 Posts
On April 05 2019 20:13 Philozovic wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2019 18:03 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 16:32 Shuffleblade wrote:On April 05 2019 06:00 Poopi wrote:
The fact that he was so mediocre compared to his BW success should exclude him from anything GOAT related imo.
It’s super cool to win an IEM and stuff if you were a random BW pro, but when you were the GOAT of BW having as little success Flash had in sc2 is really mediocre, he didn’t live up to his potential, whereas Ryung was a random who achieved a lot of solid top 4, which is IMO a greater achievement.
Erm wat. So the greatest players aren't the greatest players, it is the most impressive underdog players? TY is not at all a great player because he was always hyped to be great and became great and then he isn't really great? Ryung was a random scrub that did something impressive for his level and therefore he is one of the greatest ever? Adelscott and Sjow more GOAT than TY? Sorry I'm just baffled by your line of thinking here, Sc2 is a radically different game from SC1 I think that Flash managed to do as much as he did in SC2 is an amazing achivement. To be as good as he was in two totally different games (not different genres but different games) is amazing to me. How is that amazing lol? All Kespa players managed to do well in sc2 so I don't see how it's amazing to do what everyone else was doing. And Ryung was way better than SjoW and Adelscott wtf are you talking about. It's the same as Serral: people are way more impressed of his achievements (basically he did in 2018 what Rogue did in 2017, yet he has been far more hyped) because he is a foreigner so he was going against the odds ; so I don't see what surprises you in my line of thinking, it's the same as what people do with Serral :o. Ryung won more money than Flash in sc2 and had better GSL results, so imo he is greater than Flash in sc2, especially given the fact that he has less potential. Sure honey, One is 21-2 in Offline bo3+ against Korean The other one is 38-18 One is 45-1 against non-korean The other one is 4-1 One won two tournament in a row and three in a year The other one won six in a row, seven in a year his worst placement was top 8 in a single elimination bracket The dude lost 3 series in a year always to the eventual winner of the tournament Basically the same, p <0.05 and shit
GSL Super Tournament + BlizzCon + IEM Katowice vs GSL vs The World + BlizzCon + HSC
Sorry I guess I was indeed mistaken, Rogue had a better stretch than Serral
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Canada8989 Posts
I don't think Ryung GSL results are that much better then Flash, he has 2 semi-final and 2 round of 8 in 19 tries including almost 2 years (2015-2016) without a single code S appearance while Flash best results is round of 16 he was a bit more stable. Overall Ryung had a bit better results in GSL but Flash had much better weekender and team league showing, Ryung falling to bring Axiom to a ATC championship.
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On April 05 2019 20:23 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2019 20:13 Philozovic wrote:On April 05 2019 18:03 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 16:32 Shuffleblade wrote:On April 05 2019 06:00 Poopi wrote:
The fact that he was so mediocre compared to his BW success should exclude him from anything GOAT related imo.
It’s super cool to win an IEM and stuff if you were a random BW pro, but when you were the GOAT of BW having as little success Flash had in sc2 is really mediocre, he didn’t live up to his potential, whereas Ryung was a random who achieved a lot of solid top 4, which is IMO a greater achievement.
Erm wat. So the greatest players aren't the greatest players, it is the most impressive underdog players? TY is not at all a great player because he was always hyped to be great and became great and then he isn't really great? Ryung was a random scrub that did something impressive for his level and therefore he is one of the greatest ever? Adelscott and Sjow more GOAT than TY? Sorry I'm just baffled by your line of thinking here, Sc2 is a radically different game from SC1 I think that Flash managed to do as much as he did in SC2 is an amazing achivement. To be as good as he was in two totally different games (not different genres but different games) is amazing to me. How is that amazing lol? All Kespa players managed to do well in sc2 so I don't see how it's amazing to do what everyone else was doing. And Ryung was way better than SjoW and Adelscott wtf are you talking about. It's the same as Serral: people are way more impressed of his achievements (basically he did in 2018 what Rogue did in 2017, yet he has been far more hyped) because he is a foreigner so he was going against the odds ; so I don't see what surprises you in my line of thinking, it's the same as what people do with Serral :o. Ryung won more money than Flash in sc2 and had better GSL results, so imo he is greater than Flash in sc2, especially given the fact that he has less potential. Sure honey, One is 21-2 in Offline bo3+ against Korean The other one is 38-18 One is 45-1 against non-korean The other one is 4-1 One won two tournament in a row and three in a year The other one won six in a row, seven in a year his worst placement was top 8 in a single elimination bracket The dude lost 3 series in a year always to the eventual winner of the tournament Basically the same, p <0.05 and shit GSL Super Tournament + BlizzCon + IEM Katowice vs GSL vs The World + BlizzCon + HSC Sorry I guess I was indeed mistaken, Rogue had a better stretch than Serral
IEM Katowice took place in 2018, it's just not the same year. Philozovic's numbers of course mean nothing to you, right? If you don't want to take WCS into account you cannot conversely assume Serral lost tournaments left and right like Rogue did in 2017, so we can say Serral in four months(GSL vs the World+BlizzCon+HSC) achieved more than Rogue in one year(Super Tournament+BlizzCon).
Quality of tournaments won does matter but the number of victories can't be casually disregarded; I said that many times and I'll repeat it today, WCS are obviously easier and less prestigious than Code S but no way they are as irrelevant as you guys seem to think.
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France12904 Posts
On April 05 2019 20:40 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2019 20:23 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 20:13 Philozovic wrote:On April 05 2019 18:03 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 16:32 Shuffleblade wrote:On April 05 2019 06:00 Poopi wrote:
The fact that he was so mediocre compared to his BW success should exclude him from anything GOAT related imo.
It’s super cool to win an IEM and stuff if you were a random BW pro, but when you were the GOAT of BW having as little success Flash had in sc2 is really mediocre, he didn’t live up to his potential, whereas Ryung was a random who achieved a lot of solid top 4, which is IMO a greater achievement.
Erm wat. So the greatest players aren't the greatest players, it is the most impressive underdog players? TY is not at all a great player because he was always hyped to be great and became great and then he isn't really great? Ryung was a random scrub that did something impressive for his level and therefore he is one of the greatest ever? Adelscott and Sjow more GOAT than TY? Sorry I'm just baffled by your line of thinking here, Sc2 is a radically different game from SC1 I think that Flash managed to do as much as he did in SC2 is an amazing achivement. To be as good as he was in two totally different games (not different genres but different games) is amazing to me. How is that amazing lol? All Kespa players managed to do well in sc2 so I don't see how it's amazing to do what everyone else was doing. And Ryung was way better than SjoW and Adelscott wtf are you talking about. It's the same as Serral: people are way more impressed of his achievements (basically he did in 2018 what Rogue did in 2017, yet he has been far more hyped) because he is a foreigner so he was going against the odds ; so I don't see what surprises you in my line of thinking, it's the same as what people do with Serral :o. Ryung won more money than Flash in sc2 and had better GSL results, so imo he is greater than Flash in sc2, especially given the fact that he has less potential. Sure honey, One is 21-2 in Offline bo3+ against Korean The other one is 38-18 One is 45-1 against non-korean The other one is 4-1 One won two tournament in a row and three in a year The other one won six in a row, seven in a year his worst placement was top 8 in a single elimination bracket The dude lost 3 series in a year always to the eventual winner of the tournament Basically the same, p <0.05 and shit GSL Super Tournament + BlizzCon + IEM Katowice vs GSL vs The World + BlizzCon + HSC Sorry I guess I was indeed mistaken, Rogue had a better stretch than Serral IEM Katowice took place in 2018, it's just not the same year. Philozovic's numbers of course mean nothing to you, right? If you don't want to take WCS into account you cannot conversely assume Serral lost tournaments left and right like Rogue did in 2017, so we can say Serral in four months(GSL vs the World+BlizzCon+HSC) achieved more than Rogue in one year(Super Tournament+BlizzCon). Quality of tournaments won does matter but the number of victories can't be casually disregarded; I said that many times and I'll repeat it today, WCS are obviously easier and less prestigious than Code S but no way they are as irrelevant as you guys seem to think.
I didn't consider his numbers because when I had Rogue 2017 on aligulac it wasn't the same numbers as he posted, so without sources / ways to reproduce I don't see the point.
The tournaments in a row thing is also cringe since it includes WCS in which koreans are banned / not the same level. So basically the same BS.
IEM took place in 2018 but if you consider stretch of dominance it indicates that Rogue did better than Serral. I'm not sure if there was a HSC in late 2017 in which Rogue could have participated so bit of an unfair comparison, whereas IEM took place in 2019 and Serral didn't manage to win it as Rogue did.
And I don't think they (WCS results) are irrelevant, but since koreans are prevented from participating, using these results to say Serral did better than others is utter bullshit because they can't do nothing to prevent him from winning these events.
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there was also IEM Shanghai
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On April 05 2019 20:44 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2019 20:40 Xain0n wrote:On April 05 2019 20:23 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 20:13 Philozovic wrote:On April 05 2019 18:03 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 16:32 Shuffleblade wrote:On April 05 2019 06:00 Poopi wrote:
The fact that he was so mediocre compared to his BW success should exclude him from anything GOAT related imo.
It’s super cool to win an IEM and stuff if you were a random BW pro, but when you were the GOAT of BW having as little success Flash had in sc2 is really mediocre, he didn’t live up to his potential, whereas Ryung was a random who achieved a lot of solid top 4, which is IMO a greater achievement.
Erm wat. So the greatest players aren't the greatest players, it is the most impressive underdog players? TY is not at all a great player because he was always hyped to be great and became great and then he isn't really great? Ryung was a random scrub that did something impressive for his level and therefore he is one of the greatest ever? Adelscott and Sjow more GOAT than TY? Sorry I'm just baffled by your line of thinking here, Sc2 is a radically different game from SC1 I think that Flash managed to do as much as he did in SC2 is an amazing achivement. To be as good as he was in two totally different games (not different genres but different games) is amazing to me. How is that amazing lol? All Kespa players managed to do well in sc2 so I don't see how it's amazing to do what everyone else was doing. And Ryung was way better than SjoW and Adelscott wtf are you talking about. It's the same as Serral: people are way more impressed of his achievements (basically he did in 2018 what Rogue did in 2017, yet he has been far more hyped) because he is a foreigner so he was going against the odds ; so I don't see what surprises you in my line of thinking, it's the same as what people do with Serral :o. Ryung won more money than Flash in sc2 and had better GSL results, so imo he is greater than Flash in sc2, especially given the fact that he has less potential. Sure honey, One is 21-2 in Offline bo3+ against Korean The other one is 38-18 One is 45-1 against non-korean The other one is 4-1 One won two tournament in a row and three in a year The other one won six in a row, seven in a year his worst placement was top 8 in a single elimination bracket The dude lost 3 series in a year always to the eventual winner of the tournament Basically the same, p <0.05 and shit GSL Super Tournament + BlizzCon + IEM Katowice vs GSL vs The World + BlizzCon + HSC Sorry I guess I was indeed mistaken, Rogue had a better stretch than Serral IEM Katowice took place in 2018, it's just not the same year. Philozovic's numbers of course mean nothing to you, right? If you don't want to take WCS into account you cannot conversely assume Serral lost tournaments left and right like Rogue did in 2017, so we can say Serral in four months(GSL vs the World+BlizzCon+HSC) achieved more than Rogue in one year(Super Tournament+BlizzCon). Quality of tournaments won does matter but the number of victories can't be casually disregarded; I said that many times and I'll repeat it today, WCS are obviously easier and less prestigious than Code S but no way they are as irrelevant as you guys seem to think. I didn't consider his numbers because when I had Rogue 2017 on aligulac it wasn't the same numbers as he posted, so without sources / ways to reproduce I don't see the point. The tournaments in a row thing is also cringe since it includes WCS in which koreans are banned / not the same level. So basically the same BS. IEM took place in 2018 but if you consider stretch of dominance it indicates that Rogue did better than Serral. I'm not sure if there was a HSC in late 2017 in which Rogue could have participated so bit of an unfair comparison, whereas IEM took place in 2019 and Serral didn't manage to win it as Rogue did. And I don't think they (WCS results) are irrelevant, but since koreans are prevented from participating, using these results to say Serral did better than others is utter bullshit because they can't do nothing to prevent him from winning these events.
It's utter bullshit to pretend playing and losing hard tournaments is the same as not playing them(while, instead, playing and winning tournaments in your own area region cannot count because koreans aren't in).
What stretch of dominance? Rogue lost frequently during that streak, Serral never did.
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On April 05 2019 20:44 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2019 20:40 Xain0n wrote:On April 05 2019 20:23 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 20:13 Philozovic wrote:On April 05 2019 18:03 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 16:32 Shuffleblade wrote:On April 05 2019 06:00 Poopi wrote:
The fact that he was so mediocre compared to his BW success should exclude him from anything GOAT related imo.
It’s super cool to win an IEM and stuff if you were a random BW pro, but when you were the GOAT of BW having as little success Flash had in sc2 is really mediocre, he didn’t live up to his potential, whereas Ryung was a random who achieved a lot of solid top 4, which is IMO a greater achievement.
Erm wat. So the greatest players aren't the greatest players, it is the most impressive underdog players? TY is not at all a great player because he was always hyped to be great and became great and then he isn't really great? Ryung was a random scrub that did something impressive for his level and therefore he is one of the greatest ever? Adelscott and Sjow more GOAT than TY? Sorry I'm just baffled by your line of thinking here, Sc2 is a radically different game from SC1 I think that Flash managed to do as much as he did in SC2 is an amazing achivement. To be as good as he was in two totally different games (not different genres but different games) is amazing to me. How is that amazing lol? All Kespa players managed to do well in sc2 so I don't see how it's amazing to do what everyone else was doing. And Ryung was way better than SjoW and Adelscott wtf are you talking about. It's the same as Serral: people are way more impressed of his achievements (basically he did in 2018 what Rogue did in 2017, yet he has been far more hyped) because he is a foreigner so he was going against the odds ; so I don't see what surprises you in my line of thinking, it's the same as what people do with Serral :o. Ryung won more money than Flash in sc2 and had better GSL results, so imo he is greater than Flash in sc2, especially given the fact that he has less potential. Sure honey, One is 21-2 in Offline bo3+ against Korean The other one is 38-18 One is 45-1 against non-korean The other one is 4-1 One won two tournament in a row and three in a year The other one won six in a row, seven in a year his worst placement was top 8 in a single elimination bracket The dude lost 3 series in a year always to the eventual winner of the tournament Basically the same, p <0.05 and shit GSL Super Tournament + BlizzCon + IEM Katowice vs GSL vs The World + BlizzCon + HSC Sorry I guess I was indeed mistaken, Rogue had a better stretch than Serral IEM Katowice took place in 2018, it's just not the same year. Philozovic's numbers of course mean nothing to you, right? If you don't want to take WCS into account you cannot conversely assume Serral lost tournaments left and right like Rogue did in 2017, so we can say Serral in four months(GSL vs the World+BlizzCon+HSC) achieved more than Rogue in one year(Super Tournament+BlizzCon). Quality of tournaments won does matter but the number of victories can't be casually disregarded; I said that many times and I'll repeat it today, WCS are obviously easier and less prestigious than Code S but no way they are as irrelevant as you guys seem to think. I didn't consider his numbers because when I had Rogue 2017 on aligulac it wasn't the same numbers as he posted, so without sources / ways to reproduce I don't see the point. The tournaments in a row thing is also cringe since it includes WCS in which koreans are banned / not the same level. So basically the same BS. IEM took place in 2018 but if you consider stretch of dominance it indicates that Rogue did better than Serral. I'm not sure if there was a HSC in late 2017 in which Rogue could have participated so bit of an unfair comparison, whereas IEM took place in 2019 and Serral didn't manage to win it as Rogue did. And I don't think they (WCS results) are irrelevant, but since koreans are prevented from participating, using these results to say Serral did better than others is utter bullshit because they can't do nothing to prevent him from winning these events.
Litteraly aligulac : https://imgur.com/a/8LDTtMj
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On April 05 2019 20:40 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2019 20:23 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 20:13 Philozovic wrote:On April 05 2019 18:03 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 16:32 Shuffleblade wrote:On April 05 2019 06:00 Poopi wrote:
The fact that he was so mediocre compared to his BW success should exclude him from anything GOAT related imo.
It’s super cool to win an IEM and stuff if you were a random BW pro, but when you were the GOAT of BW having as little success Flash had in sc2 is really mediocre, he didn’t live up to his potential, whereas Ryung was a random who achieved a lot of solid top 4, which is IMO a greater achievement.
Erm wat. So the greatest players aren't the greatest players, it is the most impressive underdog players? TY is not at all a great player because he was always hyped to be great and became great and then he isn't really great? Ryung was a random scrub that did something impressive for his level and therefore he is one of the greatest ever? Adelscott and Sjow more GOAT than TY? Sorry I'm just baffled by your line of thinking here, Sc2 is a radically different game from SC1 I think that Flash managed to do as much as he did in SC2 is an amazing achivement. To be as good as he was in two totally different games (not different genres but different games) is amazing to me. How is that amazing lol? All Kespa players managed to do well in sc2 so I don't see how it's amazing to do what everyone else was doing. And Ryung was way better than SjoW and Adelscott wtf are you talking about. It's the same as Serral: people are way more impressed of his achievements (basically he did in 2018 what Rogue did in 2017, yet he has been far more hyped) because he is a foreigner so he was going against the odds ; so I don't see what surprises you in my line of thinking, it's the same as what people do with Serral :o. Ryung won more money than Flash in sc2 and had better GSL results, so imo he is greater than Flash in sc2, especially given the fact that he has less potential. Sure honey, One is 21-2 in Offline bo3+ against Korean The other one is 38-18 One is 45-1 against non-korean The other one is 4-1 One won two tournament in a row and three in a year The other one won six in a row, seven in a year his worst placement was top 8 in a single elimination bracket The dude lost 3 series in a year always to the eventual winner of the tournament Basically the same, p <0.05 and shit GSL Super Tournament + BlizzCon + IEM Katowice vs GSL vs The World + BlizzCon + HSC Sorry I guess I was indeed mistaken, Rogue had a better stretch than Serral Philozovic's numbers of course mean nothing to you, right?
sample size is a thing. With less played games it's much easier to have a high winrate. If we take a similar sample size for Rogue, let's say from the end of June to the end of the year Rogue was 24-6 in offline bo3s against koreans with 5 of his losses in SSL challenger where he didn't play serious.
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France12904 Posts
On April 05 2019 20:58 Philozovic wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2019 20:44 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 20:40 Xain0n wrote:On April 05 2019 20:23 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 20:13 Philozovic wrote:On April 05 2019 18:03 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 16:32 Shuffleblade wrote:On April 05 2019 06:00 Poopi wrote:
The fact that he was so mediocre compared to his BW success should exclude him from anything GOAT related imo.
It’s super cool to win an IEM and stuff if you were a random BW pro, but when you were the GOAT of BW having as little success Flash had in sc2 is really mediocre, he didn’t live up to his potential, whereas Ryung was a random who achieved a lot of solid top 4, which is IMO a greater achievement.
Erm wat. So the greatest players aren't the greatest players, it is the most impressive underdog players? TY is not at all a great player because he was always hyped to be great and became great and then he isn't really great? Ryung was a random scrub that did something impressive for his level and therefore he is one of the greatest ever? Adelscott and Sjow more GOAT than TY? Sorry I'm just baffled by your line of thinking here, Sc2 is a radically different game from SC1 I think that Flash managed to do as much as he did in SC2 is an amazing achivement. To be as good as he was in two totally different games (not different genres but different games) is amazing to me. How is that amazing lol? All Kespa players managed to do well in sc2 so I don't see how it's amazing to do what everyone else was doing. And Ryung was way better than SjoW and Adelscott wtf are you talking about. It's the same as Serral: people are way more impressed of his achievements (basically he did in 2018 what Rogue did in 2017, yet he has been far more hyped) because he is a foreigner so he was going against the odds ; so I don't see what surprises you in my line of thinking, it's the same as what people do with Serral :o. Ryung won more money than Flash in sc2 and had better GSL results, so imo he is greater than Flash in sc2, especially given the fact that he has less potential. Sure honey, One is 21-2 in Offline bo3+ against Korean The other one is 38-18 One is 45-1 against non-korean The other one is 4-1 One won two tournament in a row and three in a year The other one won six in a row, seven in a year his worst placement was top 8 in a single elimination bracket The dude lost 3 series in a year always to the eventual winner of the tournament Basically the same, p <0.05 and shit GSL Super Tournament + BlizzCon + IEM Katowice vs GSL vs The World + BlizzCon + HSC Sorry I guess I was indeed mistaken, Rogue had a better stretch than Serral IEM Katowice took place in 2018, it's just not the same year. Philozovic's numbers of course mean nothing to you, right? If you don't want to take WCS into account you cannot conversely assume Serral lost tournaments left and right like Rogue did in 2017, so we can say Serral in four months(GSL vs the World+BlizzCon+HSC) achieved more than Rogue in one year(Super Tournament+BlizzCon). Quality of tournaments won does matter but the number of victories can't be casually disregarded; I said that many times and I'll repeat it today, WCS are obviously easier and less prestigious than Code S but no way they are as irrelevant as you guys seem to think. I didn't consider his numbers because when I had Rogue 2017 on aligulac it wasn't the same numbers as he posted, so without sources / ways to reproduce I don't see the point. The tournaments in a row thing is also cringe since it includes WCS in which koreans are banned / not the same level. So basically the same BS. IEM took place in 2018 but if you consider stretch of dominance it indicates that Rogue did better than Serral. I'm not sure if there was a HSC in late 2017 in which Rogue could have participated so bit of an unfair comparison, whereas IEM took place in 2019 and Serral didn't manage to win it as Rogue did. And I don't think they (WCS results) are irrelevant, but since koreans are prevented from participating, using these results to say Serral did better than others is utter bullshit because they can't do nothing to prevent him from winning these events. Litteraly aligulac : https://imgur.com/a/8LDTtMj
Oh yeah, I didn't put in bo3+. Keep it at bo1+, why bo3+? Because it helps your guy?
Strictly Rogue 2017 vs Serral 2018 is: IEM Shanghai + GSL ST2 + BlizzCon vs GSL vs The World + BlizzCon + HSC.
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On April 05 2019 20:56 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2019 20:44 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 20:40 Xain0n wrote:On April 05 2019 20:23 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 20:13 Philozovic wrote:On April 05 2019 18:03 Poopi wrote:On April 05 2019 16:32 Shuffleblade wrote:On April 05 2019 06:00 Poopi wrote:
The fact that he was so mediocre compared to his BW success should exclude him from anything GOAT related imo.
It’s super cool to win an IEM and stuff if you were a random BW pro, but when you were the GOAT of BW having as little success Flash had in sc2 is really mediocre, he didn’t live up to his potential, whereas Ryung was a random who achieved a lot of solid top 4, which is IMO a greater achievement.
Erm wat. So the greatest players aren't the greatest players, it is the most impressive underdog players? TY is not at all a great player because he was always hyped to be great and became great and then he isn't really great? Ryung was a random scrub that did something impressive for his level and therefore he is one of the greatest ever? Adelscott and Sjow more GOAT than TY? Sorry I'm just baffled by your line of thinking here, Sc2 is a radically different game from SC1 I think that Flash managed to do as much as he did in SC2 is an amazing achivement. To be as good as he was in two totally different games (not different genres but different games) is amazing to me. How is that amazing lol? All Kespa players managed to do well in sc2 so I don't see how it's amazing to do what everyone else was doing. And Ryung was way better than SjoW and Adelscott wtf are you talking about. It's the same as Serral: people are way more impressed of his achievements (basically he did in 2018 what Rogue did in 2017, yet he has been far more hyped) because he is a foreigner so he was going against the odds ; so I don't see what surprises you in my line of thinking, it's the same as what people do with Serral :o. Ryung won more money than Flash in sc2 and had better GSL results, so imo he is greater than Flash in sc2, especially given the fact that he has less potential. Sure honey, One is 21-2 in Offline bo3+ against Korean The other one is 38-18 One is 45-1 against non-korean The other one is 4-1 One won two tournament in a row and three in a year The other one won six in a row, seven in a year his worst placement was top 8 in a single elimination bracket The dude lost 3 series in a year always to the eventual winner of the tournament Basically the same, p <0.05 and shit GSL Super Tournament + BlizzCon + IEM Katowice vs GSL vs The World + BlizzCon + HSC Sorry I guess I was indeed mistaken, Rogue had a better stretch than Serral IEM Katowice took place in 2018, it's just not the same year. Philozovic's numbers of course mean nothing to you, right? If you don't want to take WCS into account you cannot conversely assume Serral lost tournaments left and right like Rogue did in 2017, so we can say Serral in four months(GSL vs the World+BlizzCon+HSC) achieved more than Rogue in one year(Super Tournament+BlizzCon). Quality of tournaments won does matter but the number of victories can't be casually disregarded; I said that many times and I'll repeat it today, WCS are obviously easier and less prestigious than Code S but no way they are as irrelevant as you guys seem to think. I didn't consider his numbers because when I had Rogue 2017 on aligulac it wasn't the same numbers as he posted, so without sources / ways to reproduce I don't see the point. The tournaments in a row thing is also cringe since it includes WCS in which koreans are banned / not the same level. So basically the same BS. IEM took place in 2018 but if you consider stretch of dominance it indicates that Rogue did better than Serral. I'm not sure if there was a HSC in late 2017 in which Rogue could have participated so bit of an unfair comparison, whereas IEM took place in 2019 and Serral didn't manage to win it as Rogue did. And I don't think they (WCS results) are irrelevant, but since koreans are prevented from participating, using these results to say Serral did better than others is utter bullshit because they can't do nothing to prevent him from winning these events. It's utter bullshit to pretend playing and losing hard tournaments is the same as not playing them(while, instead, playing and winning tournaments in your own area region cannot count because koreans aren't in). What stretch of dominance? Rogue lost frequently during that streak, Serral never did.
it's utter bullshit to pretend farming ez tournaments is so much more impressive than playing and losing hard tournaments. If Serral doesn't play in hard tournaments (outside of occassional weekenders) he obviously doesn't lose as much.
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EPT
